astrophys Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 XeKr and I were talking in the Matoi Optimization Thread and they indicated that they thought that my calculations of average base stats for her (a child character) might be wrong as they had been recruiting different child characters and were not seeing base stat differences at the levels that they would have expected. [Their example was a Mozume Shinonome]. Could it be that the calculation of children base stats that we currently have posted on the website is wrong? Can anyone independently confirm if the formula given on this page http://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-fates/hoshidan-characters/base-stats/actually works or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XeKr Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Didn't see this. Copied from the other thread. I happen to have an older save file there so you can try to figure things out if you want. I gave it a small attempt earlier but too busy playing. Again I'm pretty sure I've seen children stats vary a point up or down between chapters, so I do think there's a small random component (probably when autoleveling to 20). Would be good for someone else to confirm this though in case I'm going crazy. >_> Name Ryouma Monzume Shinonome Level --/12 29 20 Hp 38 37 31 Str 23 24 19 Mag 2 6 0 Skl 24 26 18 Spd 30 32 17 Luck 23 17 14 Def 17 17 18 Res 17 26 12 Ryouma is Trueblade Monzume is Dread Fighter Shinonome is Lance Fighter btw this is Lunatic which has "fixed" growths. That's true enough, as verified during resets, but they don't seem to adhere to averages (until 20/20?). Anyways side note... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) So, as calculated (and discussed) in the other thread, it seems that the formula posted on SerenesForest, http://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-fates/hoshidan-characters/base-stats/, doesn't actually work… it predicts higher stats as starting stats than the child gets even after leveling…. This is the posted formula. ChildrenThe tables below list the children’s absolute base stats before adding their class’s base stats and factoring in the contributions from their parents. Notes: The childrens’ actual base stats = [(mother’s current stats – mother’s class base stats) + (father’s current stats – father’s class base stats) + child’s absolute base stats] / 3 + child’s class base stats The later you recruit a child, the higher their Level and stats. If their initial Level is higher than 10, add the corresponding number of Level Ups using the child’s growth rates in their current class to estimate their stats. Obviously, it does not work… for example, it predicts that Mozume's 6 magic (3 above that of Dread Fighter) should set the actual base of Shino. to 1 Magic, but he has none, even after leveling. Likewise, it predicts 21 speed (15 +6) as a level 10 Lancer, which doesn't work, as that's more than he has at level 20 even after fixed growths. The formula posted IS WRONG. EDIT: This is assuming what XeKr has posted is indeed their levels/stats/classes at the time of recruiting the kids. Edited July 12, 2015 by astrophys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayra Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Copy-pasting from the Matoi topic since its relevant to the discussion at hand. For reference, Hana is Matoi's mother in this example. I just did a small test. I've fed Hana (Level 20/10 Trueblade) all my stat boosters and tried to recruit Matoi again. For reference, what I gave Hana amounted to: +5 HP +4 Strength (Capped) +5 Magic +5 Skill +3 Speed (Capped) +9 Luck +5 Def +3 Res And here's Matoi's stats on recruitment/using Child seal to bring her to 20/10 Falcon Warrior again: 34 HP 25 Strength 10 Magic 23 Skill 30 Speed 25 Luck 15 Def 24 Res So if we compare that with pre-boosted Hana Level 20/10 Falcon Knight 34 HP 24 Strength 10 Magic 21 Skill 29 Speed 25 Luck 15 Def 24 Res Some stats went up so there is some inheritance... However, HP and Magic went up by 5 on Hana and Luck by a whooping 9, yet Matoi's Luck, Magic and HP stats remained the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocturnal YL Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Dang, just when I posted this issue elsewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 XeXr just did another test, trying to influence Mozume!Shinonome with Stat boosters, and while some stats increased, they didn't work as the formula would predict: +5 Hp +4 Str+4 Mag+10 luck (capped)+4 def+2 resAnd Shinonome got+1 Hp+1 Mag+2 luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haeresis Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Don't forget to apply the iv and ev formulas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Hmm, that's curious. So this formula--unlike the others--doesn't work like Awakening. I have a feeling it's going to be tough to figure out, unless you can get a bunch of Level 10 kids to get rid of the auto-leveling factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 It wouldn't be the first thing that has changed…. after all, we already have class inheritance working differently to be more balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamarsamar Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Anybody try testing inheritance vs. stat boosters on Lunatic mode? What if child stat inheritance is capped in such a way so that they can't exceed what their parents would have naturally received with fixed level up rates? (This would make testing Mozume's child a bit obnoxious if so . . .) Edited July 12, 2015 by Tamarsamar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) More data, from Lord Ephraim of GameFaqs: I just paired Aqua and Cyrus. Since this pair gives two children, this would be a good chance to compare.Aqua's stats:HP: 25STR: 18MAG: 8SKL: 23SPD: 26LCK: 20DEF: 10RES: 15Used one Angelic Robe (holy s*** is aqua's HP growth bad) and one dragonshieldCyrus' stats (promoted to Paladin):HP: 35STR: 21MAG: 1SKL: 21SPD: 21LUK: 16DEF 20RES: 15This got me the following base stats for Sophie (level 20 cavalier):HP: 30STR: 19MAG: 5SKL: 19SPD: 20LUK: 16DEF: 13RES: 13Nothing for Aqua's child as I have to complete the chapter to look as his base stats. --- I did some calculations…. If you take her absolute personal stats and class stats, then her level 20 form has the following increases over that sum: +5 HP, +7 Str, +3 Mag, +7 SKl, +9 Spd, +6 Lck, +4 Def, +4 Res (20/0 compared to 10/0) If we assume that growth rates are just Sophie's then over the average of 10 levels, she still has stats slightly in excess of these expectations in all categories: (20/0 actual compared to personal absolute base stats + class base stats + 10 levels at Sophie's growths) +1.5 Hp, +3.5 Str, +2 Magic, +1.5 Skl, +4 Spd, +2.5 Lck, +1.5 Def, +0.5 RES If we assume that her growth rates are effected by the parents, we are left to account for the following instead (20/0 actual compared to personal absolute base stats + class base stats + 10 levels with Awakening-style inherited growths) +1.67 HP, +2.67 Str, +1.67 Mag, +1.5 Skl, +4 Spd, +2.167 Lck, +1.33 Def, +0.83 Res So she's in either assumed scenario higher than the predicted values across the board, regardless of the growth assumptions used. If there is a base stat inheritance, then they likely come in to account for these different numbers. For reference, he is the sum totals by which the parents (combined) exceeded their class base stats: +21 HP, +28 Str, +8 Mag, +31 Skl, +35 Spd, +29 Lck, +21 Def, +21 Res Also, another thought: Silas starts at level 6 with +5 HP, +5 Str, +0 Mag, +4 Skl, +3 Spd, +4 Lck, +5 Def, and +2 RES relative to his class base, although he's 6 levels above it. Decrementing him by 5 levels… Theoretical level 1 Silas base stats, independent of class, regressing by his growths from level 6 to level 1. +2 HP, 2.75 Str, -0.25 Mag, +1.5 Skl, +1 Spd, +2 Lck, +3 Def, +0.75 Res Azura: Has +0 HP, +2 Str, +2 Mag, +2 Skl, +3 Spd, +3 Lck, +2 Def, +1 Res relative to what her class bases suggest.. And she's at level 1…. +2 HP, 2.75 Str, -0.25 Mag, +1.5 Skl, +1 Spd, +2 Lck, +3 Def, +0.75 Res +0 HP, +2 Str, +2 Mag, +2 Skl, +3 Spd, +3 Lck, +2 Def, +1 Res Total parental variance: +2 Hp, +4.75 Str, +1.75 Mag, +3.5 Skl, +4 Spd, +5 Lck, +5 Def, +2 Res It still doesn't add up towards anything close to what the kid variance is… Edited July 12, 2015 by astrophys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoaGalaxy Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 What I think we should do, is try to first get numbers for Level 10 characters, (if that's even possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 I don't have that information, although by looking at omegaevolution's Nohr playthrough videos on YouTube, some of which include child recruitments, we can try to glean more information…. He has lots of the Nohr/Shared ones available, although as I had work to do last night I didn't transcribe most of them…. But here's one example: omegaevolution's Effie!Lutz (Arthur/Harold x Effie) Arthur: Level 10/0 Fighter, (26+5 HP){has HP+5 skill}, 13 Str, 0 Mag, 9 Skl, 10 Spd, 2 Lck, 11 Def, 4 Res Effie: Level 16/0 Knight, 27 HP, 22 Str, 0 Mag, 11 Skl, 13 Spd, 12 Lck, 21 Def (19+2){has Def+2 skill}, 9 Res Lutz is the boss of the map Lutz : Level 14, 30 HP, 16 Str (14+2), 0 Mag, 13 Skl, 12 Spd, 17 luck [capped], 18 Def, 5 Res Lutz, absolute personal: 6 HP, 4 Str, 0 Mag, 6 Skl, 6 Spd, 15 Lck, 8 Def, 4 Res Wyvern, class base: 17 HP, 6 STr, 0 Mag, 3 Skl, 4 Spd, 2 Lck, 7 Def, 0 Res So, not quite level 10, but only 4 levels gained beyond it… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayvee94 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 In order to figure out the formula we need: Mamui and Azura each has at least 2 S rank supports currently available 2 save files In the first Mamui x Azura In the second Mamui x Any Waifu and Azura x Any Husbando We need stats for both of them and their children Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 That's a great idea… That way, Kanna and Shigure's fixed parents have the same stats in both cases, and presumably the kids should come in at the same levels, so any differences in starting stats should be attributable to Kamui's alternate wife and Azura's alternate husband. We could then isolate the effect that they had on the kids. I don't have the game (waiting for localization), but plenty on SerenesForest do? Would any of you be willing to conduct this test in order to help solve the mystery? In doing so, you'd likely help SerenesForest figure out how base stats are inherited, and then we could post that information. Although it might take several examples to work out, as for example the stat boosters that other people used to do a similar test with the same parents were giving weird results without a pattern that has seemed obvious to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocturnal YL Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Turns out Shigure's chapter is ridiculously easy. So I guess I can contribute some data regarding Shigure-related pairings. Or maybe I can provide data for everyone, I dunno. Here are the raw stats only. I don't have time for calculations (unless I want to stall my own game progress forever). - Nohr / Classic / Lunatic / before Chapter 14 - I already have Kamui/Felicia and Silas/Berka - All units are in their base classes (Aqua is Lv 21, because yay singing abuse) - These are total stats, not just personal stats (buffs not included) - None of these characters have been reclassed before - During the battle to get Shigure, no one got level-ups - I used a Berka/Luna pair-up with Aqua's dance to 1TKO the boss Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luk Def Res Aqua 21 22 17 6 27 27 18 11 17 Suzukaze 13 24 11 0 15 20 7 8 14 Shigure 14 27 12 2 16 20 13 11 16 Midoriko 14 28 15 3 19 12 14 12 7 Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luk Def Res Aqua 21 22 17 6 27 27 18 11 17 Harold 11 28 13 0 13 12 2 11 4 Shigure 14 27 12 2 16 18 12 12 16 Lutz 14 24 14 2 15 14 [17] 17 7 (For someone brimming with luck, a -2 luck cap isn't impressive...) Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luk Def Res Aqua 21 22 17 6 27 27 18 11 17 Odin 5 21 5 8 10 7 9 6 7 Shigure 14 27 12 3 16 18 13 11 16 Ophelia 14 24 7 14 13 14 15 7 13 Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luk Def Res Aqua 21 22 17 6 27 27 18 11 17 Zero 17 24 13 6 15 21 7 7 16 Shigure 14 26 13 3 16 18 13 11 17 Eponine 14 22 14 7 13 18 14 7 16 Other S supports I have right now Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luk Def Res Mozume 8 17 12 0 11 13 8 8 6 Harold 11 28 13 0 13 12 2 11 4 Lutz 14 25 12 0 13 12 [18] 18 5 Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luk Def Res Luna 14 26 12 3 13 19 9 14 9 Odin 5 21 5 8 10 7 9 6 7 Ophelia 14 25 5 14 10 13 15 7 12 Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luk Def Res Elise 16 24 3 19 11 14 [24] 6 15 Zero 17 24 13 6 15 21 7 7 16 Eponine 14 23 12 10 12 17 15 6 16 Hmm, that's curious. So this formula--unlike the others--doesn't work like Awakening. I have a feeling it's going to be tough to figure out, unless you can get a bunch of Level 10 kids to get rid of the auto-leveling factor. Level 10 kids are available up until post-Chapter 10, which should cover quite a few characters already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XeKr Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Considering Zero!Shigure has less hp than Odin!Shigure (Zero has more hp), there's almost certainly a random component. Well...maybe the growth rate accounts for this somehow.. With this and the statbooster stuff, perhaps there's a inheritance cap or something? And floor? Edited July 13, 2015 by XeKr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Odin has higher HP growth rates…. 55% HP vs 40% HP… For Kaze!Shigure and Harold!Shigure, they differ by 2 in SPD (Kaze!Shigure faster), 1 in defense (Harold!Shigure wins) and 1 in luck (Kaze!Shigure wins) If you look at the sums of the parental growth rates with the child personal rates (to get Awakening style growths, then divide by 3): (In below notation, K-H means Kaze!Shigure minus Harold!Shigure) Kaze!Shigure: 110 HP, 135 Str, 30 Mag, 150 Skl, 160 Spd, 85 Lck, 70 Def, 95 Res Harold!Shigure:105HP, 140 Str, 30 Mag, 160 Skl, 130 Spd, 70 Lck, 95 Def, 80 Res K-H Grow Diff: 5 HP, -5 Str, 0 Mag, -10 Skl, 30 Spd, 15 Lck , -15 Def, 15 Res K-H recruit stat:+0HP, +0Str, +0 Mag, +0 Skl, +2 Spd, +1 Lck, -1 Def, +0 Res Okay, this is interesting… Kaze!Shigure has +2 Spd when the sum of his parents speed growths and his own are 30 points higher than Harold!Shigure's which would work out to a +10 Speed growth when looking at Awakening growths. Liewise, he has a +15 lead in the mother+father+child growth sum and ends up with +1 luck. And he has a -15 disadvantage in defense and ends up with -1 in starting defense. But this doesn't work perfectly, has Kaze!Shigure has a +15 lead in Resistance yet he didn't come out with +1 Resistance. But it works for HP, Str, Mag, and Skl…. I need to return to some work, so I'll leave the larger Odin and Zero analysis till later or to someone else… But yes, Odin + Aqua + Shigure has 15 more HP growth than Zero + Aqua + Shigure, and Odin!Shigure got +1 HP… I'm not saying this is the actual rule behind it; we still may need to disentangle other factors, and if it was Awakening style growths then we'd have to divide by 3, then apply for 4 levels, so even a +30 sum speed lead would have only been a +10% growth rate difference, which would have accounted for only 0.4 extra speed, so it cannot be just that…. But it does seem to have some form of growth rate correlation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks for the info. I'm particularly happy that Level 10 kids aren't hard to get. As I think somebody mentioned, if the kids are above Level 10, they will receive auto-leveling (a form of fast level ups that's been used since FE5, I believe), which can lead them to have different stats if you keep reloading a chapter. So if they're above 10, it's gonna be a pain to figure out their inherited stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocturnal YL Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I think they stopped auto-levelling since FE13 (FE12 had enemies with slightly varying stats, I think). I've been seeing the same stats across units of the same class and level. It's either that, or I haven't been paying enough attention. (This is rearding the enemies; I don't know if the playable characters will receive different treatment.) Kind of missed those, but in FE14 Lunatic where careful calculation matters (I'm looking at you, Nohr Chapter 10), having everything fixed (both players and enemies) helps a lot on easing the difficulty. I haven't restarted enough times to confirm whether auto-levelling is the case here. But in either case, getting level 10 stats is probably the safest way to get such information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayra Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) I got some level 10 children stats for you guys (started third path). Level 10 Midoriko HP: 26 Strength: 12 Magic: 2 Skill: 14 Speed: 10 Luck: 12 Defense: 11 Resist: 6 Father: Level 12 Kaze HP: 26 Strength: 10 Magic: 0 Skill: 16 Speed: 19 Luck: 4 Defense: 7 Resist: 15 Mother: Level 12 Rinkah HP: 24 Strength: 11 Magic: 5 Skill: 10 Speed: 10 Luck: 6 Defense: 16 Resist: 5 The other children I have available at the moment is Matoi. Level 10 Matoi: HP: 24 Strength: 11 Magic: 3 Skill: 11 Speed: 13 Luck: 13 Defense: 8 Resist: 12 Father Level 9 Subaki HP: 24 Strength: 9 Magic: 0 Skill: 16 Speed: 11 Luck: 9 Defense: 11 Resist: 10 Mother Level 10 Hana HP: 22 Strength: 13 Magic: 0 Skill: 11 Speed: 15 Luck: 8 Defense: 7 Resist: 12 Edit: I tried feeding Hana all my stat boosters (+2 to all stats except for +6 Luck). Matoi gained +1 Skill, +1 Res). I then tried feeding the same items to Subaki, and Matoi only +1 skill, no resist gain. For Midoriko, feeding Rinkah gave her +1 Magic. Feeding Kaze gave nothing. Edited July 14, 2015 by Ayra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Interesting, and thanks for the data! I'll just briefly look at Matoi because of liking her character… (I then have to get going to other work) Pegasus Warrior Bases: 16 HP, 3 Str, 0 Mag, 5 Skl, 7 Spd, 4 Lck, 2 Def, 6 Res, 7 Move Matoi's Absolute Personal Bases: Level 10, 8 HP, 8 Str, 3 Mag, 5 Skl, 6 Spd, 9 Lck, 5 Def, 6 Res, 7 Move Unmodified Pegasus Warrior Bases + Matoi's Absolute Personal Bases: 24 HP, 11 Str, 3 Mag, 10 Skl, 13 Spd, 13 Lck, 7 Def, 12 Res, 7 Move Actual Level 10 Recruitment 24 HP, 11 Str, 3 Mag, 11 Skl, 13 Spd, 13 Lck, 8 Def, 12 Res, 7 Move Almost identical, EXCEPT +1 SKL and +1 DEF relative to expectations from just adding the bases. Hana: +5 HP, +9 Str, +0 Mag, +6 Skl, +7 Spd, +5 Lck, +4 Def, +9 Res gains over class base stats: Subaki: +8 HP, +6 Str, + 0 Mag, +11 Skl, +4 Spd, +5 Lck, +9 Def Def, +4 Res gains over base class stats…. This doesn't seem to explain it… difference between base stats doesn't seem to really work well…. And I wonder why feeding the stat boosters to different parents gave different results…. I'll have to ponder this another time… does anyone have ideas here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Soldier Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Midoriko appears to have +2 Speed, +1 Defense and +2 Resistance over just class bases + personal bases. The fact that increasing Rinka's stats resulted in a change, but not increasing Kaze's stats points to the fact that the parents' contributions are not equal. Maybe it's like FE4 where the mother's contribution to daughters was twice that of the father's contribution (and vice versa for sons)? Either that, or the father and the mother are responsible for different stats? Or do the kids just get inheritance from the stronger parent in that stat (i.e. Rinka - defense, Kaze - speed, resistance)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 I notice that in both level 10 examples so far (although two is too small of a sample size to be sure), boosting the mothers had a better effect than boosting the father…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Soldier Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I notice that in both level 10 examples so far (although two is too small of a sample size to be sure), boosting the mothers had a better effect than boosting the father…. Then again, they were both daughters. If it goes off of FE4, then boosting fathers may have more of an effect on sons. Or, it could be as you said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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