Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Alazen]

To be honest it would make next to no difference if the Crystal Ball didnt break. It's not like she could tell them how and where she got it or why they should believe it, it could potentially have caused more trouble than the crystal ball breaking(if it was accused of being a Hoshido trick).

Except Aqua did not ever try to get any of the Nohr siblings into the Invisible Kingdom when they were close to it. Later she could have shown the available Nohr siblings and Kamui the crystal ball to reveal Fake Garon to them.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Alazen

[artishe]

Since you can find the writing from the other main game online, there's not much reason to buy all three games, unless you're one of those people who needs to experience the story firsthand or you want the maps.

Getting the copy with your favorite characters, then IK, and then maaaaaybe the route you didn't play after that (if you liked their characters in IK) is probably the way to go.

Personally, Nohr was my preferred main game. The Hoshidans were kinda bland in comparison to them, and even on the Hoshido route I still cared more about the Nohrians than the Hoshidans.

But Hoshido (and IK) is closer to generic FE so if you want to play it safe on story, that's the way to go.

[JupiterKnight]

Except Aqua did not ever try to get any of the Nohr siblings into the Invisible Kingdom when they were close to it. Later she could have shown the available Nohr siblings and Kamui the crystal ball to reveal Fake Garon to them.

She didn't try it with Kamui either, they just chase after her when she goes inside the lake and then she sees that they followed her once they get there.

But really Aqua is a pretty poor tactician. On IK her plan was just to attack both sides and be shockingly surprised that they now consider them the enemy and traitors.

The worse part is that her supposed tactical ability is needed for the Hoshido war effort to win the war.

[Alazen]

Aqua is a mess of a character. It's no wonder that Thane, Damosel, and NekoKnight's rewrites or suggestions all had her being axed or at least turned into a minor character.

I've cut her from the rewrite I plotted up. Fake Garon's gone so there's no need for her crystal ball. The Invisible Kingdom is now Hydra's fiefdom that Kamui has no lineage from. Kamui's family is big enough as it is without shoving in the drama dealing with Aqua and her mother (who has been written out for Mikoto as an only child).

Edited September 6, 2015 by Alazen

[artishe]

It actually does as the specific part in question has a negative effect on the plot thereafter. The problem with that plot point is that it causes Kamui and Aqua to push the Nohrian war efforts with Hoshido, slaughtering who knows how many innocent lives in the process, just to sit Garon on the throne to prove who he is. That by itself is already a horrible extreme to go to, and it gets worse from there once you start taking into account more of the plot elements. That whole scenario was completely avoidable as at least two options existed that would've fixed the issue of Garon without going to that extreme, such as Aqua telling Kamui everything about IK and thus exposing Anankos' plot that would leave both countries in ruins. So not only was the more logical solution ignored, they caused a lot of unnecessary collateral damage and sacrificed many lives (including two people held near and dear to Kamui and Aqua) rather pointlessly.

So from what one bad moment of writing, it cascaded into becoming something far worse for the plot as a whole. Kamui and Aqua do so much harm to everyone around them, especially to the people they care about, and it didn't even have to happen. That is bad writing, and when combined with Nohr's other problems, it completely bogs down what could've been a great story.

While the event itself was poor writing, the rest is just kinda story telling. Kamui makes a decision in line with her character and with several chapters of build up. Then it results in more conflict. That's just how you write. I'd say Nohr has a lot more of these sorts of ups and downs than previous FEs, and it's one of even fewer to actually feel bleak at a few points though. So perhaps that's why this one feels so much worse than other FE installments to people.

Aqua, as plenty of people have pointed out, is a lot messier, but just because her poor decision was the catalyst for the Nohr/Hoshido plot, it really doesn't render every decision Kamui makes poorly written.

A bad decision or a decision you disagree with isn't necessarily a poorly written one.

Edited September 6, 2015 by artishe

[Frelia]

Speaking of Kamui obsession, Thor Odinson/Lumi found this:

http://jokerthebutler.tumblr.com/post/127743340473/part-of-conversation-between-ryouma-crimson

Game, can we stop obsessing over Kamui now please

The more I read this scene and the other Kamui worshiping that goes on, the more happy I get when I see Kamui get fully cut out of AU fanfics like Into A Walled Garden for example. Especially at this point Kamui's amazing naivety and the Kamui worshiping gets on my nerves.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Frelia

[Ryo]

By simply "deviating" most of the attention and needless worship from Kamui, I just realized how much potential and interesting dynamics I can add to the relationships and character depths in my story.

[Damosel]

Not going to lie, there are at least three characters I was really interested in exploring with Kamui removed from the context: Camilla, Joker, and Gunter.

The yandere thing is a tired trope, but I really liked the possibility of Camilla beign a doting, over-protective big sis to ALL her siblings. So with the object of the trope gone, I've totally ignored her obsession and am quite enjoying writing her character- though this makes her possibly OOC in my fic. *shrugs*

Joker is pretty hilarious in his fixation upon his master and rudeness to all others. I really wanted to keep this part of his personality, so I just switched which character he was serving/fixated upon. It's been a lot of fun, and he still feels very in-character (to me at least).

Gunter has some really interesting supports and backstory. So like Joker, I decided to just changed his placement and what kid he was saddled with while trying to keep him basically the same. He hasn't gotten any screentime in the fic yet, but I've got a lot of plans that involve him.

But that's is all AU fic talk. In the game naive Kamui will be there- either shielded by their Nohr sibs and taught how to pull the two-faced act, or legit killing people with the Hoshido sibs and unrepentantly wrecking their former home. Both of these are overexaggerated generalizations, but I am curious to see how close the localization will stick to this compared to what the fan translations have shown up.

Also with all the talk about Ryouma and Suzukaze being there to witness Kamui's kidnapping...how many kids had Sumeragi decided to haul half-way across the world map to be near the kingdom they were debatably at war with? Sounds like he has worse judgement about fieldtrips than Ethlyn.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Damosel

[Taka-kun]

Nobody thought about, idk, making Kamui a good character? I think canon!Kamui is so damn shonen it hurts, but his position in the story overall is very interesting, the worshipping not withstanding. Turn your sword against your relatives, no matter what side you choose, that's pretty deep. Most of the ideas I have heard is removing Kamui altogether or make two of them, which makes the whole "choice" thing kinda pointless anyway.

[Sunwoo]

I could rework Kamui to be a more interesting character. And in the stories I'm planning that are not entirely AU I have an idea as to how I could do that. The thing is, I don't give a shit about Kamui. I find the siblings and the retainers far more interesting, and would rather focus on them rather than give Kamui a personality.

Also with all the talk about Ryouma and Suzukaze being there to witness Kamui's kidnapping...how many kids had Sumeragi decided to haul half-way across the world map to be near the kingdom they were debatably at war with? Sounds like he has worse judgement about fieldtrips than Ethlyn.

I wonder if it's possible whether the Chevalier thing was supposed to be a family trip that went wrong, I dunno. Maybe they were all there. Not that it's a good idea to begin with.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Sunwoo

[artishe]

I imagine the localization's not going to change too much honestly.

Muddying up the Hoshido/Nohr conflict so that both sides are greyer kinda ruins the plot as it is now. The whole black/white nature of the two sides really emphasizes that there's an element of selfishness in choosing the Nohr route. Prioritizing something else over the greater good is a common theme in the Nohrian characters (the royals, the retainers (Belka and the Awakening trio especially), Nyx... Can't speak on the others because I haven't looked much into them), and Kamui's decision to stick on their side essentially makes her one of them. And it does the same to the neutral route characters, too, for that matter. Changing the way the countries are presented kinda wrecks the parallels a lot of work was clearly put in to create and would probably mean either changing characters or just losing the parallels entirely.

I wouldn't say the goal of the plot is a grey morality thing that IS just royally screwed up. The choice scene read to me like a Hoshido/greater good vs. Nohr/loved ones, and then it was echoed in a lot of the characters (on the Nohr side at least), Kamui's actions, and the conflicts in both routes. Seeing the fallout of picking your loved ones over the greater good (and vice versa) was actually really compelling.

Hope they do something a lil better with Aqua though...

Edited September 7, 2015 by artishe

[Auro Astum]

More of my issues with the story stem from Aqua more than Kamui to be honest. She knows way too much and is alot of the reason for some of the plot contrivances in the game. It also doesn't help that in the main story parts she mainly exists as an exposition bot.

Kamui in the Nohr route does question his decisions and he/she makes mistakes and people do suffer for it. Alot of the problems with Kamui stem from the narrative not giving their mistakes proper weight and allowing for the character to reflect or properly address them.

While I do like that in the Hoshido route, Kamui's naivete is toned down compared to Nohr, it bugs me that no real weight or reflection is given to the fact that Kamui just left the people who raised them and for all intents and purposes was their family for their early life. Which is one of the contributing factors for the perceived Hoshido bias.

There is potential, it just wasn't fully realized in the game, and I don't think throwing away Kamui is necessarily the best move since you have a character who can reasonably make mistakes and stand to learn from them and grow as a character.

[Sunwoo]

Again, I'm sure most of the writers here who choose/chose to cut out Kamui are perfectly capable of making Kamui a fully fleshed out character. Speaking for myself, though, Kamui as is does not interest me at all. The siblings, on the other hand, do. Speaking for myself, which do you think I'd rather spend my time on: coming up with an entirely new personality for someone who doesn't interest me at all, or developing and exploring the personalities of characters I do like?

[NekoKnight]

Also with all the talk about Ryouma and Suzukaze being there to witness Kamui's kidnapping...how many kids had Sumeragi decided to haul half-way across the world map to be near the kingdom they were debatably at war with? Sounds like he has worse judgement about fieldtrips than Ethlyn.

I also found this weird. While Chevalier is not Nohr proper, it's still deep into the western portion of the continent. If Sumeragi had some sort of diplomatic mission (that he brings his family to, for some reason) you'd think they'd choose a place closer to the border like Port Dia or the city where the Rainbow Sage is. It's astounding that such an important event is glossed over in the story.

Nobody thought about, idk, making Kamui a good character? I think canon!Kamui is so damn shonen it hurts, but his position in the story overall is very interesting, the worshipping not withstanding. Turn your sword against your relatives, no matter what side you choose, that's pretty deep. Most of the ideas I have heard is removing Kamui altogether or make two of them, which makes the whole "choice" thing kinda pointless anyway.

This. Not that stories without Kamui lack merit but I think some people are really selling Kamui('s potential) short. While I think a rewrite should tone down on other character's obsession with him, the choice and everything that happens to Kamui is deeply personal and dramatic. Kamui's mixed upbringing/heritage also brings up interesting comparisons to his other siblings; for example the pain Kamui felt of never knowing his mother until she died for him, compared to the Nohr siblings having awful mothers who messed up their lives. There is potential to highlight all the things that make him different from both his families.

I imagine the localization's not going to change too much honestly.

Muddying up the Hoshido/Nohr conflict so that both sides are greyer kinda ruins the plot as it is now. The whole black/white nature of the two sides really emphasizes that there's an element of selfishness in choosing the Nohr route. Prioritizing something else over the greater good is a common theme in the Nohrian characters (the royals, the retainers (Belka and the Awakening trio especially), Nyx... Can't speak on the others because I haven't looked much into them), and Kamui's decision to stick on their side essentially makes her one of them. And it does the same to the neutral route characters, too, for that matter. Changing the way the countries are presented kinda wrecks the parallels a lot of work was clearly put in to create.

I wouldn't say the goal of the plot is a grey morality thing that IS just royally screwed up. The choice scene read to me like a Hoshido/greater good vs. Nohr/loved ones, and then it was echoed in a lot of the characters (on the Nohr side at least), Kamui's actions, and the conflicts in both routes. Seeing the fallout of picking your loved ones over the greater good was actually really compelling and vice versa.

Hope they do something a lil better with Aqua though...

If they were going for a theme of selfishness vs the greater good, they didn't sell it very well. When Kamui sides with Nohr, they don't explain why besides some vague promise to end the war (intense irony incoming, Kamui helps escalate the war!) from the Nohr side. Kamui just says "Sorry, I can't go back to Hoshido. That's my decision." Compare this to siding with Hoshido where Kamui specifically mentions the reasons for defecting. Perhaps you could infer that Kamui loves his new siblings too much to betray them but it's never mentioned so you don't feel the weight and personal turmoil of his choice. To add onto that, after you choose Nohr, Hoshido bias tells Kamui that he messed up by not choosing Hoshido.

[Auro Astum]

Again, I'm sure most of the writers here who choose/chose to cut out Kamui are perfectly capable of making Kamui a fully fleshed out character. Speaking for myself, though, Kamui as is does not interest me at all. The siblings, on the other hand, do. Speaking for myself, which do you think I'd rather spend my time on: coming up with an entirely new personality for someone who doesn't interest me at all, or developing and exploring the personalities of characters I do like?

You are free to do whatever you want. It is your writing. I was just making a statement, not trying to tell people what to do, and I apologize if it came off that way.

[artishe]

If they were going for a theme of selfishness vs the greater good, they didn't sell it very well. When Kamui sides with Nohr, they don't explain why besides some vague promise to end the war (intense irony incoming, Kamui helps escalate the war!) from the Nohr side. Kamui just says "Sorry, I can't go back to Hoshido. That's my decision." Compare this to siding with Hoshido where Kamui specifically mentions the reasons for defecting. Perhaps you could infer that Kamui loves his new siblings too much to betray them but it's never mentioned so you don't feel the weight and personal turmoil of his choice. To add onto that, after you choose Nohr, Hoshido bias tells Kamui that he messed up by not choosing Hoshido.

Once Kamui begins to regret her decision (round midgame?), she says, directly, that even though Hoshido was the 'good' path, she couldn't follow their side because to do so would mean fighting Marx and Leon. If by new siblings you mean the Nohrians, then you don't even have to infer that she loves them too much to betray them at all, because it's right there in the dialogue.

And yeah, the game makes Kamui regret her decision. Because it was a selfish/naive one. She picks a core group over an entire nation without realizing/considering the implications of that choice. This is where some of that 'greater good vs loved ones' theme comes in to play as we deal directly with the fallout of her decision. The Nohr siblings live, but at what cost?

[Thane]

I think the problem is that Kamui was stuck between a rock and a hard place, but the game didn't do anything with it. What's worse, you could make Kamui's life all puppies and sunshine if you just paid a few thousand yen extra.

Really, I've said it a million times and I'll say it again: the premise is phenomenal, and I'm still, more than two months after release, baffled by how much the story sucks in spite of its potential.

[NekoKnight]

Once Kamui begins to regret her decision (round midgame?), she says, directly, that even though Hoshido was the 'good' path, she couldn't follow their side because to do so would mean fighting Marx and Leon. If by new siblings you mean the Nohrians, then you don't even have to infer that she loves them too much to betray them at all, because it's right there in the dialogue.

And yeah, the game makes Kamui regret her decision. Because it was a selfish/naive one. She picks a core group over an entire nation without realizing/considering the implications of that choice. This is where some of that 'greater good vs loved ones' theme comes in to play as we deal directly with the fallout of her decision. The Nohr siblings live, but at what cost?

I guess Nohr!Kamui just doesn't appeal to me in any way. Even if Kamui isn't a badly written character (not the same as well written character), he is still very unlikable. In Nohr he's naive, ineffectual and dangerously shortsighted. Kamui paying the price for his naivete could be a powerful theme but it seems more like everyone else is the ones who suffer for it. I can't support Kamui's actions nor can I sympathize with him because he could have avoided a lot of the tragedies had be spared a thought for what his choice meant. Nohr feels like a drawn out "Bad End". But I need to get all my tiger stamps so it's worth at least one playthrough.

Edited September 7, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Damosel]

I'm with Sunwoo in that I'm really not invested in Kamui as a character, so don't really have the inspiration to want to flesh them out fully. Whereas all the setting, siblings, and their retainers I want to write for and explore in different situations.

Also personally I find Kamui too mutable- customized looks and gender, just about all characters as Love Interests, and three possible universes to effect them. Kamui's really what the player makes them, and while that's fine when playing the game it's way too headscratching in terms of finding their "canon" portrayal for a narrative. I'll never naysay someone's take on Kamui's personality because the self-insert nature makes it so... anything goes just about. Play it straight with the wide eyed naivety or say Kamui never breaks down about the death of their siblings cause they never really cared in the first place- either reading is valid, even if one isn't to your liking.

Once Kamui begins to regret her decision (round midgame?), she says, directly, that even though Hoshido was the 'good' path, she couldn't follow their side because to do so would mean fighting Marx and Leon. If by new siblings you mean the Nohrians, then you don't even have to infer that she loves them too much to betray them at all, because it's right there in the dialogue.

And yeah, the game makes Kamui regret her decision. Because it was a selfish/naive one. She picks a core group over an entire nation without realizing/considering the implications of that choice. This is where some of that 'greater good vs loved ones' theme comes in to play as we deal directly with the fallout of her decision. The Nohr siblings live, but at what cost?

We know now after the game's files have been scattered into the brain of the interweb and have had countless fans translating the material, that Hoshido in addition to being traditional FE narrative structure is also depicted as the "good" path even within Nohr's route. ...if I'd had heard this from the advertisement my enthusiasm for the game would've plummeted.

Supposedly it was supposed to be a hard choice between equally as valid loyalties: Family, blood vs. adopted. But it's pretty clear from a lot of the fan reviews I've read that Nohr's narrative beats you over the head with the fact that you made the WRONG CHOICE. Uh, excuse me game, I don't see a morality meter on screen so why is the story punishing me for choosing one of the three routes which I've paid for?

Though seriously, we only learn about Nohr's deficincy in food production and that they rely upon tributaries in Hoshido's route. One of the Nohr sibs couldn't tell Kamui that the hard decisions of war with Hoshido have a bigger picture than simply right vs. wrong or the quandry of harming others to help yourself? Nohr's route couldn't be MORE than just allowing all four of the sibs to live? It couldn't be actually reforming the corruption within the kingdom? Kamui couldn't actually be a legit prince/princess concerned with the wellbeing of the home they've grown up in, rather than a strange land that strangers are telling is theirs? It had to be a group vs. nation rather than nation vs. nation?

As far as the canon Nohr story goes, Kamui does go through character grown and has to realize hard truths. For me it's just... rather paltry with the backdrop of a continent wide war going on.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Damosel

[artishe]

Though seriously, we only learn about Nohr's deficincy in food production and that they rely upon tributaries in Hoshido's route. One of the Nohr sibs couldn't tell Kamui that the hard decisions of war with Hoshido have a bigger picture than simply right vs. wrong or the quandry of harming others to help yourself? Nohr's route couldn't be MORE than just allowing all four of the sibs to live? It couldn't be actually reforming the corruption within the kingdom? Kamui couldn't actually be a legit prince/princess concerned with the wellbeing of the home they've grown up in, rather than a strange land that strangers are telling is theirs? It had to be a group vs. nation rather than nation vs. nation?

As far as the canon Nohr story goes, Kamui does go through character grown and has to realize hard truths. For me it's just... rather paltry with the backdrop of a continent wide war going on.

It's probably just a story preference thing then. I actually preferred that we got some moral struggle this time instead of just generic FE war drama (well, outside of IK, which is generic FE war drama). It was nice to get a more... flawed, I guess? main cast than usual and actually have these flaws impact the story (especially on the Nohr route, where we get to experience a flawed lord more fully than FE usually allows).

Given the way FE structures its chapters, adding anything more than the loved ones vs greater good dynamic on the Nohr route would probably leave the writing too crowded/slow down the story pacing. FE's never handled subplots/in-plot character development/just about anything except the barebones plot well, and they're already devoting far more dialogue than usual to develop Kamui on the Nohr route. Odds are it would mean either extra chapters or exposition, which FE tends to overuse already and it's painful.

Even if it's the end goal, the Nohr route does go far beyond just making sure the four siblings live. The writing gets split over giving us actual in-game character development (always sparse in FE), this whole other priority vs greater good issue (which appears in and is discussed by multiple characters over multiple chapters), building three core villains over multiple chapters, and giving us the Hoshido war and Slime Garon plotlines. As far as FE goes, it's a pretty busy story. With subplots and character development, which is a rather nice (in my opinion) change from the usual plucky lord fights an evil king and then he fights an evil dragon feat. some evil assassins and/or a bunch of evil dukes that try to seize some power but you usually kill in one chapter anyways.

I've been replaying FE6/7 recently, so maybe that's just coloring my opinion, but FE usually handles political/war drama really poorly. Maybe technically sound in that there are battles and a lot of little lords/dukes/kings, but often unengaging from an emotional standpoint, as everyone just expositions at you, often only appears as relevant for 1-2 chapters, and/or seems to serve little purpose outside of existing for you to fight.

I'd take an emotionally compelling story with characters that make mistakes over a logically sound one any day, so I guess it's just a personal preference thing.

[Frelia]

I'm with Sunwoo in that I'm really not invested in Kamui as a character, so don't really have the inspiration to want to flesh them out fully. Whereas all the setting, siblings, and their retainers I want to write for and explore in different situations.

Also personally I find Kamui too mutable- customized looks and gender, just about all characters as Love Interests, and three possible universes to effect them. Kamui's really what the player makes them, and while that's fine when playing the game it's way too headscratching in terms of finding their "canon" portrayal for a narrative. I'll never naysay someone's take on Kamui's personality because the self-insert nature makes it so... anything goes just about. Play it straight with the wide eyed naivety or say Kamui never breaks down about the death of their siblings cause they never really cared in the first place- either reading is valid, even if one isn't to your liking.

We know now after the game's files have been scattered into the brain of the interweb and have had countless fans translating the material, that Hoshido in addition to being traditional FE narrative structure is also depicted as the "good" path even within Nohr's route. ...if I'd had heard this from the advertisement my enthusiasm for the game would've plummeted.

Supposedly it was supposed to be a hard choice between equally as valid loyalties: Family, blood vs. adopted. But it's pretty clear from a lot of the fan reviews I've read that Nohr's narrative beats you over the head with the fact that you made the WRONG CHOICE. Uh, excuse me game, I don't see a morality meter on screen so why is the story punishing me for choosing one of the three routes which I've paid for?

Though seriously, we only learn about Nohr's deficincy in food production and that they rely upon tributaries in Hoshido's route. One of the Nohr sibs couldn't tell Kamui that the hard decisions of war with Hoshido have a bigger picture than simply right vs. wrong or the quandry of harming others to help yourself? Nohr's route couldn't be MORE than just allowing all four of the sibs to live? It couldn't be actually reforming the corruption within the kingdom? Kamui couldn't actually be a legit prince/princess concerned with the wellbeing of the home they've grown up in, rather than a strange land that strangers are telling is theirs? It had to be a group vs. nation rather than nation vs. nation?

As far as the canon Nohr story goes, Kamui does go through character grown and has to realize hard truths. For me it's just... rather paltry with the backdrop of a continent wide war going on.

Yeah pretty much. Nohr is a real mess story wise and they could have explained so much about what happens to the people and how and why food is such a hassle to get instead of leaving that explanation in the Hoshido route. Along with that I really do not appreciate that the game goes "it's the wrong choice!" when you pick the Nohr route. I don't want a game beating me over the head for making a choice like that especially the way Nohr's route does it. It's obnoxious.

With Kamui I am not all that interested in them either. While Kamui does get some sort of character development it just doesn't fully draw me into liking them more. Part of that could be because of how that amazing naivete and how Kamui's mistakes are not always given the proper weight. Kamui's sheltered upbringing has a huge part in why they are naive and naivete generally doesn't annoy me. But when it starts to negatively affect other people all the time and in some cases gets people injured or killed that is when it annoys me. If the game went all the way through with calling out Kamui on their naive and bad decisions and didn't worry about vilifying Kamui I would probably be less annoyed about it.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Frelia

[Thane]

So me and Sunwoo talked about Azura being a mean drunk, verbally abusing everyone (and especially Kamui's hair) and then would one drunken night accidentally slip up and mention Touma, unceremoniously turning to foam and thereby leaving the third route unexplored.

Ta-da.

[Ebony]

So me and Sunwoo talked about Azura being a mean drunk, verbally abusing everyone (and especially Kamui's hair) and then would one drunken night accidentally slip up and mention Touma, unceremoniously turning to foam and thereby leaving the third route unexplored.

Ta-da.

100/10 i'd write doujins to this

[Dark Sage]

It's probably just a story preference thing then. I actually preferred that we got some moral struggle this time instead of just generic FE war drama (well, outside of IK, which is generic FE war drama). It was nice to get a more... flawed, I guess? main cast than usual and actually have these flaws impact the story (especially on the Nohr route, where we get to experience a flawed lord more fully than FE usually allows).

Given the way FE structures its chapters, adding anything more than the loved ones vs greater good dynamic on the Nohr route would probably leave the writing too crowded/slow down the story pacing. FE's never handled subplots/in-plot character development/just about anything except the barebones plot well, and they're already devoting far more dialogue than usual to develop Kamui on the Nohr route. Odds are it would mean either extra chapters or exposition, which FE tends to overuse already and it's painful.

Even if it's the end goal, the Nohr route does go far beyond just making sure the four siblings live. The writing gets split over giving us actual in-game character development (always sparse in FE), this whole other priority vs greater good issue (which appears in and is discussed by multiple characters over multiple chapters), building three core villains over multiple chapters, and giving us the Hoshido war and Slime Garon plotlines. As far as FE goes, it's a pretty busy story. With subplots and character development, which is a rather nice (in my opinion) change from the usual plucky lord fights an evil king and then he fights an evil dragon feat. some evil assassins and/or a bunch of evil dukes that try to seize some power but you usually kill in one chapter anyways.

I've been replaying FE6/7 recently, so maybe that's just coloring my opinion, but FE usually handles political/war drama really poorly. Maybe technically sound in that there are battles and a lot of little lords/dukes/kings, but often unengaging from an emotional standpoint, as everyone just expositions at you, often only appears as relevant for 1-2 chapters, and/or seems to serve little purpose outside of existing for you to fight.

I'd take an emotionally compelling story with characters that make mistakes over a logically sound one any day, so I guess it's just a personal preference thing.

You know, I actually like the idea of a story where the protagonist's naivete and bad decisions actually have consequences and end up getting good people killed. I've always advocated for that. But Nohr never goes all the way with it because it doesn't want to vilify Kamui. Like, Takumi is completely right in hating Kamui but the game acts like he's completely unreasonable and they not only kill him off but his corpse gets possessed with the explanation being that it's because of his negative emotions (i.e hating Kamui for invading his homeland and slaughtering his people). And then there's how Hinoka and Sakura have no hard feelings towards him, which is just ridiculous.

There's also the fact that the villains are just so bland and have nothing to them. Ganz, Slime Garon and Iago are all goddamn terrible. Pretty much their whole purpose in life is to make Kamui feel bad. They have no real goals, no backstory, and no personality beyond being dicks for no reason. If the game doesn't care to tell me much about them or characterize them, why should I care about them at all?

I also like the idea of moral ambiguity but a lot of it feels forced. Like, Kamui and Aqua can't tell Marx about their suspicions because he'll accuse them of being traitors and not believe them, but that's due to inconsistent characterization. He's supposed to be this guy whose top priority is what's best for Nohr and is torn between his morals, his loyalty for his father, and his loyalty to his country, but this doesn't come across in the main story at all, he just looks retardedly obstinate and doesn't seem to question his father ever. We're also told the real Garon was a kind father but we're never shown it, which is a pet peeve of mine. They don't even bring it up to Elise or Camilla, who are more reasonable and would probably try to keep it a secret.

I mean, when you boil it right down, the main plot after the crystal plot is basically a glorified basketball game. You shoot the ball (Slime Garon) into the hoop (Hoshido's throne). Not really any better than the generic "lord kills dragon/invading kingdom."

Plus it's not like this is the first FE to have multiple subplots and character development, FE8 and FE9 did it too. They also did it better because the villains aren't total ass, the world and politics feel more vibrant, and there's much less reliance on contrivances and dumb plot devices. They also have a tighter writing structure too and have their share of emotional moments. They're not that original, sure, but they do what they do well, which I think is ultimately more important.

EDIT: FE5 also did the moral ambiguity thing better too, because Thracia has legitimate grievances with Lenster and its king is actually a devoted, if ruthless, ruler. Thracia's reasons for its hostility with Lenster is actually pretty much the same as Nohr's (they want Lenster's resources because food can't grow well in Thracia and people are starving) but this is actually addressed and Lenster isn't treated as morally pure at all. It also did a better job handling the lord fucking up due to his poor decisions and selfishness because he doesn't just cry like a pussy about it and actually seems to learn.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Dark Sage

[Frelia]

You know, I actually like the idea of a story where the protagonist's naivete and bad decisions actually have consequences and end up getting good people killed. I've always advocated for that. But Nohr never goes all the way with it because it doesn't want to vilify Kamui. Like, Takumi is completely right in hating Kamui but the game acts like he's completely unreasonable and they not only kill him off but his corpse gets possessed with the explanation being that it's because of his negative emotions (i.e hating Kamui for invading his homeland and slaughtering his people).

The way the game treats Takumi's valid dislike for Kamui in the Nohr route is disgusting. Takumi has a lot of really good reasons for disliking Kamui esp when they invade Hoshido and kill some of his people, but instead of doing some good with his feelings he gets treated like he's being unreasonable, gets possessed, killed off, and his corpse gets turned into the final boss. Even then the game doesn't want to abandon the idea that Kamui can do no wrong no matter what.

I don't mind characters I like getting killed if it's done respectfully and has an impact, but the way Takumi's valid dislike towards Kamui gets treated and the way his death happens is a real injustice to his character. It makes me wary about playing the Nohr route to be quite honest.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Frelia