Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Water Mage]

I think the barrier that Mikoto made and the Faceless being created by the Nohr to bypass the barrier is probably a clear sign that the conflict was still ongoing. I could imagine the war was intended to eb and flow and what we see in Fates following Mikoto's death is the peak of the conflict since the barrier would have greatly subdued it.

That's what I think too, I'm pretty sure that Mikoto's death and Kamui's choice are what caused the war to reach it's peak.

[B.Leu]

Mouais... :/

Weren't they doing somekind of political discussion at the time ? A peace treaty ? If so, I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing everyone would know, and if so, that would be blabantly obvious to know what happened, especially if there's only two king in the entire world.

It's even more stupid when you know that the Hoshi-sue kidnapped Aqua in response.

Also, you just can't make me believe that FakeGaron couldn't just kill Kamui in his sleep or something just because Camilla and Marx loved Kamui, or because it would seem suspicious for X reason. Because not only it would be easy as hell, and because he hired Granz in the future, which is not even subtle in the first place.

Bad writing, this game have it big time.

That's one of the reasons I'm happy there's not much politic in this game, the plot is already stupid from the get go, but if you had somekind of shaddy politicians, when the king could just off them, just like that...

[Water Mage]

Mouais... :/

Weren't they doing somekind of political discussion at the time ? A peace treaty ? If so, I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing everyone would know, and if so, that would be blabantly obvious to know what happened, especially if there's only two king in the entire world.

It's even more stupid when you know that the Hoshi-sue kidnapped Aqua in response.

Also, you just can't make me believe that FakeGaron couldn't just kill Kamui in his sleep or something just because Camilla and Marx loved Kamui, or because it would seem suspicious for X reason. Because not only it would be easy as hell, and because he hired Granz in the future, which is not even subtle in the first place.

Bad writing, this game have it big time.

That's one of the reasons I'm happy there's not much politic in this game, the plot is already stupid from the get go, but if you had somekind of shaddy politicians, when the king could just off them, just like that...

Now that I think about it, Gunther was under orders to kill Kamui, should he cause too much trouble, so maybe Garon and Fake Garon didn't always meant to kill Kamui.

[Sunwoo]

I doubt this was addressed in the game, but why did Hoshido not declare war on Nohr immediately after Sumeragi was killed (and what was Sumeragi doing there in the first place)? Hoshido attacks Nohr after they kill Mikoto so why did they do nothing when Sumeragi was killed?

I want to keep Sumeragi's assassination in the my rewrite but I can't think of a good reason for Hoshido to not immediately attack them...

Did Hoshido just sit on its thumbs for over a decade?

Maybe there WAS conflict immediately following Sumeragi's death. But for whatever reason the intensity of the war had died down and it was more in an awkward state where they're still at war but it's not full on active attacks against one another.

And then Kamui blew up the Hoshido capital and killed their queen and it was on.

[JupiterKnight]

Hydra and Gooron are out to make Kamui suffer before they die. This is pretty much why the battle after Mikoto's death was supposed to be about, making Kamui suffer for bringing the weapon that would kill Mikoto, who would die protecting them, and then finish them off with the units that have dragonslaying weapons.

Hydra could have likely had Mikoto killed long before that point since Sumeragi can appear in Hoshido with ease, but that wouldn't be as enjoyable.

@Sunwoo: Aqua's kidnapping was apparently a big influence on the tension between both nations as well, which is why Asura feels responsible when he admits to kidnapping her for Hoshido to start a conflict. Elise was born after she was kidnapped, while some people tried to keep them from getting her back like Garon wanted.

Edited September 10, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Thane]

And then Kamui blew up the Hoshido capital and killed their queen and it was on.

Don't forget stealing a priceless artifact before leaving the country to plan for an invasion for no adequately explored reason!

[NekoKnight]

Mouais... :/

Weren't they doing somekind of political discussion at the time ? A peace treaty ? If so, I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing everyone would know, and if so, that would be blabantly obvious to know what happened, especially if there's only two king in the entire world.

It's even more stupid when you know that the Hoshi-sue kidnapped Aqua in response.

This. There was no "who-done-it" part of Sumeragi's assassination. Everyone knows why (except the players, lol) Sumeragi went to Chevalier, everyone knows that Sumeragi was murdered an everyone knows Kamui was kidnapped. There are several characters who witnessed or make mention of the event. This idea that Hoshido needs to "prove" Garon did it, is absurd. It's war, not a court room.

The best reason I can think of if this event was at the end of a long war, and Hoshido didn't have the resources to continue. But that raises the question of why Sumeragi would be so trusting of a guy he was still at war with. Maybe Garon sent him a letter like "Dear King Sumeragi, come to Chevalier, a country far removed from Hoshidan support. I want to talk about our feelings. Don't bring any guards, they will just get in the way of our honest discussion. Oh, and bring your infant son with you. I love kids."

Hydra and Gooron are out to make Kamui suffer before they die. This is pretty much why the battle after Mikoto's death was supposed to be about, making Kamui suffer for bringing the weapon that would kill Mikoto, who would die protecting them, and then finish them off with the units that have dragonslaying weapons.

Hydra could have likely had Mikoto killed long before that point since Sumeragi can appear in Hoshido with ease, but that wouldn't be as enjoyable.

@Sunwoo: Aqua's kidnapping was apparently a big influence on the tension between both nations as well, which is why Asura feels responsible when he admits to kidnapping her for Hoshido to start a conflict. Elise was born after she was kidnapped, while some people tried to keep them from getting her back like Garon wanted.

B-but...why? Does Hydra just have a massive hate-boner for Kamui in particular?

Edited September 10, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

"Dear King Sumeragi, come to Chevalier, a country far removed from Hoshidan support. I want to talk about our feelings. Don't bring any guards, they will just get in the way of our honest discussion. Oh, and bring your infant son with you. I love kids."

I'm stealing that for my signature.

Also, you're right that it's not the courtroom, but how did they know Garon was behind it? I mean, what exactly do we know about this whole event anyway?

Speaking of resources, wouldn't NOHR be the ones who wouldn't have enough supplies or material to continue fighting a war?

And now while we're at reasons for fighting: why are Nohrians called "glory-seeking"? That's...never mentioned, like, once in the main story or by anyone, is it? Or did I miss that?

[Frelia]

This. There was no "who-done-it" part of Sumeragi's assassination. Everyone knows why (except the players, lol) Sumeragi went to Chevalier, everyone knows that Sumeragi was murdered an everyone knows Kamui was kidnapped. There are several characters who witnessed or make mention of the event. This idea that Hoshido needs to "prove" Garon did it, is absurd. It's war, not a court room.

The best reason I can think of if this event was at the end of a long war, and Hoshido didn't have the resources to continue. But that raises the question of why Sumeragi would be so trusting of a guy he was still at war with. Maybe Garon sent him a letter like "Dear King Sumeragi, come to Chevalier, a country far removed from Hoshidan support. I want to talk about our feelings. Don't bring any guards, they will just get in the way of our honest discussion. Oh, and bring your infant son with you. I love kids."

B-but...why? Does Hydra just have a massive hate-boner for Kamui in particular?

Considering how well this game does at telling the player about stuff I wouldn't be surprised if that letter happened tbh. This game is so good at explaining certain stuff (sarcasm). And yeah you're right there was no "who done it" part for Sumeragi's assassination.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Frelia

[Ryo]

This is part of the reason why I insist that there should be chapter narration like in some past games, or at least some kind of method from where players can learn more about the politics, the history, and the world. There are just too many important details that can't be fully explored via dialogues and supports alone.

[Water Mage]

Maybe it's because I'm law student, but I try to find proof and justification in everything, but then again, you guys are right, it's war not a court of law.

And now that I think about it, Aqua's kidnapping had a rather interesting timing, considering that during that time many heirs to the Nohr royal family where being murdered left and right.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Questions for Phillius:

1. Are Kamui and Hydra/Anankos at all close relatives?

2. Have you scrapped or merged any characters?

3. Are you still going with the 'Reform Nohr'' issue? If it is, and you're still having Hoshido at war against Nohr, then do you have at least some ideas to fit them together in a proper way?

1. Technically yes, but at the same time not really. His good half was in a relationship with Mikoto, but because he is to dragons what dragons are to humans in terms of age, he became asexual long before the story takes place. What happened instead was Sumeragi was the one who got Mikoto pregnant (the current Hoshidan queen agreed reluctantly) and Anankos had Mikoto drink those potions he gave Inigo, Severa and Owain (It's like real-life Mitochondrial Donation, only with more magic involved). When he was born, he was genetically the child of Sumeragi and Mikoto, but was still born a half-dragon.

2. No. I'd rather add depth to the characters than get rid of them. For example, Camilla's smothering behaviour is toned way down and applies to everyone she knows who is younger than her (Making her just a very motherly person in general as opposed to unwholesomely obbsessed with the Avatar) and Felicia has knife-collecting as a hobby.

3. Yes, reform is the focus of the Nohr story, but mostly it's about gathering enough allies to remove Garon from power (as opposed to killing him as the Hoshidans want to do). For example, instead of 'suppressing' the Ice Tribe rebellion, he convinces them that trying to take on Nohr akone is stupid and tells them to wait for a more opportune moment.

But back onto the current topic, perhaps Garon faking being friends with Sumeragi in order to prevent himself from being held accountable? I.e. Garon pretends to be friends with Sumeragi and makes an effort to appear that he is willing to mend the bridges between them. When he finally betrays him, he uses arrow designs (I dunno, different feather types?) from the assassin order Belka was taken by? It isn't unlikely that a Nohrian noble wouldn't want peace with them and he can say that they're none for taken children in order to raise them as their next generation of assassins? Hoshido doesn't believe him and takes Azura, demanding that he drop the bullshit and give them back their child and make reparations, but he was too stubborn to give in. The whole scenario is a mess, but I'm sure it can be salvaged.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

I'm stealing that for my signature.

Also, you're right that it's not the courtroom, but how did they know Garon was behind it? I mean, what exactly do we know about this whole event anyway?

Speaking of resources, wouldn't NOHR be the ones who wouldn't have enough supplies or material to continue fighting a war?

And now while we're at reasons for fighting: why are Nohrians called "glory-seeking"? That's...never mentioned, like, once in the main story or by anyone, is it? Or did I miss that?

In my story at least, there are a few points that could justify this.

• Nohr is geographically huge compared to Hoshido, so they have more land to get resources from (although very little of it is farmable)
• What Nohr lacks in farmland, it makes up for in high amounts natural resources. Hoshido is the opposite, it has a lot of food but can't produce as much steel.
• Hoshido has a high population but only members of the samurai caste are allowed to carry weapons (compared to Nohr's general conscription policies) so they have a smaller number of fighting men.

I don't know what that "glory-seeking" stuff is. Mustache twirling and glory-seeking are completely different activities.

[Ryo]

I think we should start a list of the major unexplained plots in the game so whoever doing a rewrite/whatever can address to these issues. Here are the ones directly come to mind:

1. Why did Sumeragi go to Chevalier? Why did he bring his children along while there were (presumably) very few to no guards? What exactly happened when he was there?

2. Why exactly did real!Garon kidnap Kamui? What kind of plan did he have in store for the young dragon?

3. What exactly happened after Mikoto and Shenmei escaped from IK? Why (and how) were they separated and ended up as concubines in two rivaling kingdoms? How did Shenmei die?

4. For how long have the two kingdoms been at war? What exactly was the reason for the conflict in the first place?

5. What the hell was the battle that was shown in the painting inside the theatre?

6. When did the slime monster take Garon's place?

7. Who created the Invisible Kingdom curse, that is so powerful to affect even good!Hydra? And why?

Obviously there should be more than these.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Ryo

[B.Leu]

If a king sudenly decided to go to a diplomatic mission at the other side of the world, without anyone knowing about it... well, said king would be a freaking ninja which make me wonder how Sumeragi was killed in the first place then...

But more importantly, that's mean that said king AND kingdom is incompetent as hell.

Sumeragi is the descendant of Emmeryn, that's the only explanation.

Fuck Hydra. No, seriously, fuck him. He removes tension, character responsibility and the entire human element from the story; he's a convenient excuse that allows Kamui to bang their siblings and have a golden ending. I know a lot of people disagree with me on this one, but holy shit he's the WORST kind of villain in a character-driven game. If you're basing your story on this, ignore this abomination.

To me, it's more like Fuck IK (And the DLC with it), because I honestly think they could've done something good with Hydra, without using the double standard: Dragon are the lesser race and must be evil/mad, or the plot device water-curse.

Seriously, a dragon who opperates in the shadow to destroy both kingdoms, that look cool to me. IS wasted it, but the idea is cool.

... I wish I could join him instead of this stupid goldy ending.

This thread makes me want to play Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776.

I garantee you one thing, it is an nice experience to have. You'll probably be confused by the gameplay at first just like I was though.

[JupiterKnight]

This. There was no "who-done-it" part of Sumeragi's assassination. Everyone knows why (except the players, lol) Sumeragi went to Chevalier, everyone knows that Sumeragi was murdered an everyone knows Kamui was kidnapped. There are several characters who witnessed or make mention of the event. This idea that Hoshido needs to "prove" Garon did it, is absurd. It's war, not a court room.

The best reason I can think of if this event was at the end of a long war, and Hoshido didn't have the resources to continue. But that raises the question of why Sumeragi would be so trusting of a guy he was still at war with. Maybe Garon sent him a letter like "Dear King Sumeragi, come to Chevalier, a country far removed from Hoshidan support. I want to talk about our feelings. Don't bring any guards, they will just get in the way of our honest discussion. Oh, and bring your infant son with you. I love kids."

B-but...why? Does Hydra just have a massive hate-boner for Kamui in particular?

Because Hydra is insane. That's literally the answer. He's cuckoo for destruction puffs. So insane that even when he removed his madness and made it into Lilith he was still crazy.

As for Garon, we'll probably have to wait for a decent translation of the final battle on Hoshido, but he mentions some goal besides killing Mikoto yet he doesn't remember what that goal is anymore. Even the killing Mikoto might just be the result of Hydra tampering with his memories.

Also people are ignoring that even if Hydra was removed they'd just make one pure Japanese nation against one evil Western themed nation regardless, because IS can't write anything decent. So you'd still have super generic bad guys leading Nohr. It's like they expect things to change about that.

[Alazen]

I've already posted that Hydra is conceptually interesting but was misused.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I think we should start a list of the major unexplained plots in the game so whoever doing a rewrite/whatever can address to these issues. Here are the ones directly come to mind:

1. Why did Sumeragi go to Chevalier? Why did he bring his children along while there were (presumably) very few to no guards? What exactly happened when he was there?

2. Why exactly did real!Garon kidnap Kamui? What kind of plan did he have in store for the young dragon?

3. What exactly happened after Mikoto and Shenmei escaped from IK? Why (and how) were they separated and ended up as concubines in two rivaling kingdoms? How did Shenmei die?

4. For how long have the two kingdoms been at war? What exactly was the reason for the conflict in the first place?

5. What the hell was the battle that was shown in the painting inside the theatre?

6. When did the slime monster take Garon's place?

7. Who created the Invisible Kingdom curse, that is so powerful to affect even good!Hydra? And why?

Obviously there should be more than these.

Okay, I guess I'll go first.

1. Because real!Garon was actually rather progressive when it came to Nohr's relationship with Hoshido. He and Sumeragi had actually done quite a bit of work when it came to mending the relationship between the two nations and they decided that they would sign a peace treaty in a neutral country. Chevalier was chosen and every member of the Royal Families were invited along as it was expected to be a celebration. On the way there, Anankos appears to Garon and says that if he kills Sumeragi and abducts the Avatar, he will resurrect Shenmei, his slain children and any concubine he still harbored some feelings for (he can't actually, but Garon knows about Touma and how powerful Anankos is, thus having no reason not to believe him) and the rest is history.

2. Again, because Anankos asked him to as part of the agreement. The subsequent abuse was done to break his will in order to make him subservient and willing to go alone with Anankos' plan (Rule the world as opposed to destroy it).

3. They both realise that the Fire Emblem is the only thing that can kill Anankos (Yato was designed to nullifier the powers of dragons) and, remembering that good!Anankos said that they need the four holy weapons in order to awaken the Fire Emblem's power, they split up to search for clues (heh). Shenmei dies because, like Azura, the pendant has completely ruined her lifespan and she turns to water, but not before taking Azura to Touma and explaining everything that's going on.

4. The reason for the conflict is resources for Nohr, but Hoshido's, as I've said before, is also based in their religion (it is our job to redeem them, by force if necessary). They entered an armistice before Garon was born because neither side could continue fighting, which allowed him to start building a more health relationship with them.

5. Some kind of ancient battle, maybe the one were Garon's father died or something.

7. The reason that good!Anankos can't break the curse is because he made the curse before he killed the King of Touma, when he was still whole. As strong as good!Anankos is, he wouldn't be as strong as whole!Anankos and thus, is unable to break the curse. Of course, I also proposed that instead of the turn-to-water thing, that the curse function like the 'Taboo Curse' from Harry Potter, which simply lets Anankos know who and where you are, so he can go after you. Of course, since Anankos may or may not be a literal God in my rewrite, anything in ten kilometers is already dead (Incidentally, rumors of entire towns being destroyed by invisible demons or unusually large Wyverns aren't unheard of).

I can't think of one for six right now, but I'll figure something out.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Phillius

[JupiterKnight]

You should probably have Shenmei do something to protect/help Nohr since they generally mention that's what she used the last of her powers for and it took her life, then using what little time she had left to do as you mentioned and take her daughter to Touma.

The destruction could be caused by something visibly water related since Hydra is tied to water. Something like torrents of water that act similar to a water jet cutter to come down from the sky and slice up anything they come into contact with. Spirits being nearby to finish off whoever is fortunate enough to survive.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Something like that. Kill Shenmei to make Garon more easily blackmailed.

Also, I have a thing for real!Garon, but it might be a little stupid; as the last step of their agreement, Anankos created a water familiar that took on the appearance of Garon and needed him to perform a ritual that would copy his memories and personality onto the familiar. Once the ritual was done, Anankos initially tried to kill Garon, but remembered that his good half had brought three warriors over for another world. Because this is after he reabsorbed good!Anankos after his death, he knew which world they were from and banished Garon to the Awakening world, hoping that he would wreck the place trying to get back, which he did by becoming Walhart.

Seriously, am I the only one who notices a lot of similarities between the two? Both are grey-skinned, white haired, heavily-armored axe-wielders who are associated with Conquering things (It's the name of the Nohr version and Conquest is the name of Walhart's unique skill). On top of this, Walhart's unmarried ending says that he 'left the world' and legends place him in the Outrealm 'having found a new world to conquer' or something. This could set up a plot line where real!Garon leads a rebellion against fake!Garon, leading to conflicted loyalties for the royal family, as real!Walhart is mostly unable to prove that he isn't the imposter.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Phillius

[JupiterKnight]

Becoming Walhart does sound a little silly as Garon looks older than him to me personally.

I do like the idea of him being confused and rampaging due to trying to get back home. He could show up near the end having been sent back thanks to Naga after she learns he's from another world.

[NekoKnight]

Because Hydra is insane. That's literally the answer. He's cuckoo for destruction puffs. So insane that even when he removed his madness and made it into Lilith he was still crazy.

I guess that's the best answer I'll get. It seems like writers use "He's craycray" for explaining character motivations in the same way people use "it's magic, I don't gotta explain shit!" for technical problems. When will Anankos become a WoW raid boss?

I think we should start a list of the major unexplained plots in the game so whoever doing a rewrite/whatever can address to these issues. Here are the ones directly come to mind:

1. Why did Sumeragi go to Chevalier? Why did he bring his children along while there were (presumably) very few to no guards? What exactly happened when he was there?

2. Why exactly did real!Garon kidnap Kamui? What kind of plan did he have in store for the young dragon?

3. What exactly happened after Mikoto and Shenmei escaped from IK? Why (and how) were they separated and ended up as concubines in two rivaling kingdoms? How did Shenmei die?

4. For how long have the two kingdoms been at war? What exactly was the reason for the conflict in the first place?

5. What the hell was the battle that was shown in the painting inside the theatre?

6. When did the slime monster take Garon's place?

7. Who created the Invisible Kingdom curse, that is so powerful to affect even good!Hydra? And why?

Obviously there should be more than these.

Here's how I plan on handling the issues.

Questions 1&4: Hoshido and Nohr have been on and off war for some 200 years. Nohr is starved for farmland and has tried to invade several times in the past. For their aggression, Hoshido refuses to trade with Nohr and Nohrians must trade with the smaller countries to get the food they need. By the time Sumeragi goes to Chevalier, the fighting between Hoshido and Nohr has simmered down. Chevalier, a small nation renown for their dracoknights, has just gained their independence from Nohr by treaty and King Garon invites King Sumeragi and his family to Chevalier, to discuss more peaceful relations between their countries. Garon brings his two eldest children to meet with Sumeragi's children. Sumeragi doesn't trust Garon but the king of Chevalier is his old friend so he's fine as long as the meeting takes place there.What he doesn't realize is that Chevalier gained their independence on the condition that they betray Sumeragi.

Question 2: Garon hoped to kill Sumeragi and kidnap his wife and children to force a trade deal with Hoshido. Most of the Hoshidans who attended Sumeragi are killed but Mikoto, Ryoma and Hinoka manage to escape. Sumeragi tried to rescue Kamui but is killed before he can. Kamui is taken but Hoshido refuses to open trade relations and Kamui becomes a useless hostage. Garon would have just killed him but he sensed Kamui had a special power, so he raised Kamui as his own child.

Question 5: It's just a picture of a battle between Nohr and Hoshido. Garin's father fought with Hoshido so it could be from that time.

Questions 3, 6 and 7 are irrelevant because I don't have hydra or the IK.

Edited September 11, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Alazen]

I don't support cutting Hydra since he can provide a plausible 3rd option.

[Thane]

I don't support cutting Hydra since he can provide a plausible 3rd option.

Why must the third option include a world-ending dragon? Why couldn't Kamui try to stop the war without joining either of the countries?

[Alazen]

I meant that Hydra would provide a 3rd option for Kamui to side with. Since I'm assuming Kamui would require a way to rein one or both of the kingdoms at least.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Alazen