Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Thane]

I meant that Hydra would provide a 3rd option for Kamui to side with. Since I'm assuming Kamui would require a way to rein one or both of the kingdoms at least

Then why would the painfully good-hearted Kamui side with the world-ending dragon? Why would he need a dragon's power to unite the two nations? That sounds like a cop-out.

[Alazen]

Obviously, Hydra wouldn't be all "Destroy World!" in this scenario. Kamui wouldn't have to be "painfully good-hearted" either. And assuming we're dropping Hoshido Does Nothing Wrong for presenting both kingdoms as having serious issues that ultimately serve to perpuate their conflict then I imagine force would be needed to rein in one or both of them.

Kamui still wouldn't be the Garon's birth child and he wouldn't have a position in Hoshido either. One would figure he would need help to rein in the kingdoms.

[B.Leu]

Why must everything must be about uniting the wolrd ? That's boring. You don't need a Demon Path to be independent.

Sheesh, it make me think of Naruto, again. This whole 'peace in the world' is nothing but BS from the get go.

I like the idea of Hydra who's not batshit insane and not responsible for everything for no reason like Kaguya was.

Btw, why do we call him Hydra ? xD

On another note, it pleases me a lot to see that the TVtropes page point out the whole issue with the story, like the Hoshi-sues. Yeah, it's tvtropes, and yeah, there's not that much mentions about the plot's bs. But it would have irritated me if there was only full of the same fanboyism Bioware games and FEA have.

[Taka-kun]

Now with all these ideas flinging around, it begs the question of how much you can bend the characters and the story without making it totally OC. I remember when I played Awakening and then looked up some fanfictions, it reeked of OCiness so much that I vomited Omg, the Robins. The setting of Fates is darn good, but it seems many are in favor of moving away from the initial premise entirely, at which point it could be reskinned into something else entirely (like Mighty No. 9 is basically Megaman without the name). Idk, fanfictions tend to be terribad anyway but the ones that I have genuinely enjoyed are either (1) Faithful to the source but putting an interesting spin on it or covering original stories or (2) The writing is so damn good anyways. Dameceles's story for example, audaciously completely removes Kamui, removing the "choice between two families" and instead just takes the characters and world and sail them into an AU. Doesn't detract the enjoyment as all since her writing is good with much thought into the worldbuilding itself. And food porn. I love em' food porn!

The Metro 2033 universe has some pretty damn good fanfictions, some even managing to get to the point of publishing (since the original author gave the greenlight. Yes, even the original author approved). Then again, the fans of that franchise tend to be a bit more mature they don't obsess over waifus and husbandos for starters.

[Shengar]

They should just hire someone who have the experience of writing a war story, or translating Chinese war epic, or both.

Why must everything must be about uniting the wolrd ? That's boring. You don't need a Demon Path to be independent.

Sheesh, it make me think of Naruto, again. This whole 'peace in the world' is nothing but BS from the get go.

Uniting the world is such overused trope, I agree with that. But in itself, it isn't bad. With the premise and setting of FE:Fates, uniting the war torn world shouldn't become boring. There should be a lot of different perspectives and ideas on how the world would go, on how each sovereign thinks their way of treating and governing their subject is the most just and right. But it isn't as the plot boils down ancient threat, everyone unite, then world peace. This is like what you said, is boring and total BS.

[B.Leu]

Then again, you have to ask yourself what is OOC ? I mean, when the characters are just walking incoherencies. Aka, Marx being 'honorable', 'Jerkass-or-not' Takumi and the like, and the FEA expies...

And I prefer the snarky Robin that we generally have in fanfic then this pile of naive bland friendship crap that is the normal Robin and Kamui.

Uniting the world is such overused trope, I agree with that. But in itself, it isn't bad. With the premise and setting of FE:Fates, uniting the war torn world shouldn't become boring. There should be a lot of different perspectives and ideas on how the world would go, on how each sovereign thinks their way of treating and governing their subject is the most just and right. But it isn't as the plot boils down ancient threat, everyone unite, then world peace. This is like what you said, is boring and total BS.

Deep down, the only way conflicts of that size could be ever solved, is by to a lot of convenients crap, as a lot of anime do. Bleh. :/

Like seriously, the dude knew this kid and other dudes would be precisely here years later at that particuliar place to get this shiny thins, and would do a particuliary stupid thing instead of being smart, then walking plot device talk, and after Naruto-gaiden-like shenenigan, everybody join at one point just because the plot say so,aka no reasons because nothing smart happens, then yadayada. this is just ridiculous.

Edited September 11, 2015 by B.Leu

[Sunwoo]

Takumi's not a walking incoherency though. From what I can see he's generally closed off except around people whom he trusts strongly, which is what gives the impression of being a jerk. He's hostile towards people he doesn't trust, likely because he's too young to know how to be diplomatic about his dislike and distrust (this is a problem a lot of people IRL have). He's prickly towards those whom he's not close with, and that's the side that most people probably see. But once he warms up to someone, or if he's with someone he really cares about (most obvious in his supports with Oboro and Sakura) he's a lot nicer. I don't see it as being inconsistent, I see it as him acting differently towards people depending on how much he cares about them.

Marx, on the other hand from what I've heard, seems to not be able to decide whether he's loyal to his country or to his father who is not good for his country, so shrug.

[Thane]

I've got the perfect video to sum up all of us here trying to fix this broken wreck of a story:

[Damosel]

Takumi at least reacts as a character differently on each of the routes, arguable agency and growth? Mostly not cause of the excuse "but then, he was possessed and didn't know it" comes up in two of the routes.

Marx's struggle between loyalty to his father vs. the country overall could've worked- if there was any semblence of familial caring or paternal instincts within Garon's depiction. But since he's too busy twirling his mustache and being a goo-monster, Marx's characterization takes the hit.

Maybe Garon sent him a letter like "Dear King Sumeragi, come to Chevalier, a country far removed from Hoshidan support. I want to talk about our feelings. Don't bring any guards, they will just get in the way of our honest discussion. Oh, and bring your infant son with you. I love kids."

And after recieving this letter Sumeragi decided to bring young Ryouma and kid Suzukaze cause why not make it a field trip?
Wait, how'd those two get back if the adult who brought them halfway around the world was dead...

In my story at least, there are a few points that could justify this.

• Nohr is geographically huge compared to Hoshido, so they have more land to get resources from (although very little of it is farmable)
• What Nohr lacks in farmland, it makes up for in high amounts natural resources. Hoshido is the opposite, it has a lot of food but can't produce as much steel.
• Hoshido has a high population but only members of the samurai caste are allowed to carry weapons (compared to Nohr's general conscription policies) so they have a smaller number of fighting men.

I don't know what that "glory-seeking" stuff is. Mustache twirling and glory-seeking are completely different activities.

I totally dig all that world building.

I also theorize that Nohr, in addition to having poor farming earth, has a larger general population than Hoshido. Thus any bad harvests hits them extremely hard and why they started conquering tributaries to get some stability.

On a more random note, I was rereading some Nohr route translations- and am really struck by how often I see "as expected from filthy Nohrians" or "you Nohrian mongrels" or some kind of racially based insult. Whereas in the Hoshido Route mostly everyone just calls Kamui a "traitor" and that's it, no beef with Hoshidans being from Hoshido. For being peace loving, Hoshido's pretty darn racist. Though it makes worldbuilding Hoshido based on xenophobic isolationist ancient Japan easier. At least Nohr’s got the upside of princesses inheriting the throne and not being racist- even if done unintentionally.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Damosel

[Time the Crestfallen]

I've got the perfect video to sum up all of us here trying to fix this broken wreck of a story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIMunG7FPKg

I don't think that's entirely accurate. The problem is that Fates has a lot of potential, but fails to live up to that potential, which is far more frustrating than what would've happened if the premise was shit to start with. Compare Azura in her supports (especially with Kamui, Odin, Shigure and the Siblings); in the supports, she's hilariously blunt, occasionally snarky, but still very nice and sweet once she opens up and openly loves the things she enjoys. In terms of supports, she's one of my favorite characters in the series (beaten only by Ike, Lyn and Frederick). But in the game's story, she's just an exposition-bot who fades into the background once she's done explaining things in a very forced manner and creates plot holes so wide you could drive a train through them. To quote Zero Punctuation "Sonic Boom and Spiderman feel like the developers were all wearing oven-mitts, but a game that has every advantage in the world and then calmly, decisively and deliberately puts its todger in a saucepan full of hot bleach is somehow orders of magnitude worse."

Marx's struggle between loyalty to his father vs. the country overall could've worked- if there was any semblence of familial father or paternal instincts within Garon's depiction. But since he's too busy twirling his mustache and being a goo-monster, Marx's characterization takes the hit.

That's another problem; Xander's confliction between loyalty to Garon and Royalty to war if slime!Garon didn't consistently treat them all like shit. I'd think that if you had more scenes like Nohr Chapter 7, were the first thing slime!Garon does is compliment Xander for his work in the fight against Hoshido, his character wouldn't come across as just stubborn. That would've been interesting; for slime!Garon to give them just the right amount of praise that they'd think "Maybe he isn't completely gone! Maybe he'll actually go back to normal once this is all done!" What we get instead is a character who's willing to let his little sister's sacrifice be a wasted one because 'mah father ordered my to'.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

On a more random note, I was rereading some Nohr route translations- and am really struck by how often I see "as expected from filthy Nohrians" or "you Nohrian mongrels" or some kind of racially based insult. Whereas in the Hoshido Route mostly everyone just calls Kamui a "traitor" and that's it, no beef with Hoshidans being from Hoshido. For being peace loving, Hoshido's pretty darn racist. Though it makes worldbuilding Hoshido based on xenophobic isolationist ancient Japan easier. At least Nohr’s got the upside of princesses inheriting the throne and not being racist- even if done unintentionally.

I can't remember all instances of those slanders but to me it had less to do with being racist and more to do with Nohrians being baddies and the Hoshidans calling them out on it. It's not wrong to call a villain a villain, right? In Fates' world, everyone in Hoshido is good and it's just the Nohrians who are causing trouble, such as kidnapping Kamui. Looking at real history, everyone considered foreign cultures savage or inferior, so I don't think realistically the contempt (Hoshido to Nohr) would be one-sided.

Marx's struggle between loyalty to his father vs. the country overall could've worked- if there was any semblence of familial caring or paternal instincts within Garon's depiction. But since he's too busy twirling his mustache and being a goo-monster, Marx's characterization takes the hit.

Making Garon into a person who is both brutal and someone who Marx can love and respect is the huge part of my rewrite. Slime!Garon is just so dastardly, Marx seems like a stubborn fool for standing by him. I want to set up Garon as the man that Marx will become if he stays on his path. In other words, Garon too is someone who was principled and loyal to his country until harsh realities made him cruel.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. The problem is that Fates has a lot of potential, but fails to live up to that potential, which is far more frustrating than what would've happened if the premise was shit to start with. Compare Azura in her supports (especially with Kamui, Odin, Shigure and the Siblings); in the supports, she's hilariously blunt, occasionally snarky, but still very nice and sweet once she opens up and openly loves the things she enjoys. In terms of supports, she's one of my favorite characters in the series (beaten only by Ike, Lyn and Frederick). But in the game's story, she's just an exposition-bot who fades into the background once she's done explaining things in a very forced manner and creates plot holes so wide you could drive a train through them. To quote Zero Punctuation "Sonic Boom and Spiderman feel like the developers were all wearing oven-mitts, but a game that has every advantage in the world and then calmly, decisively and deliberately puts its todger in a saucepan full of hot bleach is somehow orders of magnitude worse."

That's how I feel on the matter. If the premise was bad, we'd just agree that the plot was shit and move on, but all that wasted potential makes people want to pick up the pieces and rebuild the thing. What could have been.

Edited September 12, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

I can't remember all instances of those slanders but to me it had less to do with being racist and more to do with Nohrians being baddies and the Hoshidans calling them out on it. It's not wrong to call a villain a villain, right? In Fates' world, everyone in Hoshido is good and it's just the Nohrians who are causing trouble, such as kidnapping Kamui. Looking at real history, everyone considered foreign cultures savage or inferior, so I don't think realistically the contempt (Hoshido to Nohr) would be one-sided.

I'm not sure how many their actually are, but I remember at one point in the Treehouse livestream Ryoma said something along the lines of "he isn't your brother, he's a heartless Nohrian!" in regards to Xander. The Hosidan racism thing seems to be an (admittedly somewhat justified from what we see in game) stereotype. They've been harrassed by Nohr so much that they paint all of them with the same brush.

[JupiterKnight]

It's only really justified in that the top leaders of the nation are moustache twirling villains, but the people themselves are just trying to survive in a harsh unforgiving land. That's why Aqua and Kamui in IK support mentions just calling them evil for doing the best they can to survive is too extreme. They're aggressive and hostile, but they aren't evil.

It would help if Hoshido actually proved they were better like they are constantly proclaiming instead of just saying they are right. Especially when they employ assassins just like Nohr and had Aqua kidnapped to trade her for Kamui. Even if she enjoyed her time after the plan fell through they still kidnapped her with the intention of sending her right back without a second thought.

Even Ryoma tries to blackmail Kamui for the cure to Elises illness for one chapter, which is completely glossed over by the story because we can't ever act like anyone from Hoshido ever truly does anything wrong.

Plus if being Dumb and Good was not equal in Hoshido. Seriously the fact that Aqua is needed for her supposed brilliant tactics suggest how stupid it is. Heck Hoshido doesn't even know about the whole lack of food until near the end of Birthright. This is despite having spies and assassins sent to kill people in Nohr for ages. Finally that barrier that in my honest opinion is worse than the IK curse.

Edited September 12, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

Plus it would help if Hoshido actually proved they were better like they are constantly proclaiming instead of just saying they are right. Especially when they employ assassins just like Nohr and had Aqua kidnapped to trade her for Kamui. Even if she enjoyed her time after the plan fell through they still kidnapped her with the intention of sending her right back without a second thought.

Even Ryoma tries to blackmail Kamui for the cure to Elises illness for one chapter, which is completely glossed over by the story because we can't ever act like anyone from Hoshido ever truly does anything wrong.

Plus if being Dumb and Good was not equal in Hoshido. Seriously the fact that Aqua is needed for her supposed brilliant tactics suggest how stupid it is. Heck Hoshido doesn't even know about the whole lack of food until near the end of Birthright. This is despite having spies and assassins sent to kill people in Nohr for ages. Finally that barrier that in my honest opinion is worse than the IK curse.

Exactly. It seems to me that, as I've mentioned earlier, that Hoshido has adopted the 'can't argue with elves' attitude were they're always on about how much better and more peaceful they are than everyone else when they can be just as bad, or even worse. Ryoma's blackmailing in particular is particularly scummy because he's using the life of someone who is in their early teens at best as a bargaining chip. Particularly considering his frequent complaints about Nohr using 'dishonourable' methods...

Edited September 12, 2015 by Phillius

[Damosel]

I can't remember all instances of those slanders but to me it had less to do with being racist and more to do with Nohrians being baddies and the Hoshidans calling them out on it. It's not wrong to call a villain a villain, right? In Fates' world, everyone in Hoshido is good and it's just the Nohrians who are causing trouble, such as kidnapping Kamui. Looking at real history, everyone considered foreign cultures savage or inferior, so I don't think realistically the contempt (Hoshido to Nohr) would be one-sided.

Nohr route Chapter 14: A Heavenly Singing Voice the Hoshidan commander denounces Nohrians as mongrels. Takumi in the Nohr route has a lot of examples, while I can remember Ryouma on the Hoshido route telling Kmaui they don't understand the dishonorable nature of Nohr's ways. Nohr is the "villain" to not only Hoshido but the overall game, but looking at it in-world...

It is why when mentioning that Nohr lacks said instances of racism, and has the gender-equal inheritance, I used "unintentionally". Cause it's clear to the writers regard Nohr as villians first with evil at the forefront of their actions, and they come off as possibly-not-people to hostile enemy Hoshidans on the Nohr route. HOWEVER it's just funny because on the Hoshido route Nohr lack such "dirty Hoshidans" comments and instead focus on Kamui themselves being the traitor- they don't care about Hoshidans being from Hoshido despite being actively at war for just as long (assumably) and having been inflitrated by Hoshidan assassins, ect. With the game's writing in-world Nohrians are not really racist, while overmap dialogue for Hoshido and specific characters like Oboro are. I really doubt the writers intended this to happen with trying to justify it via mustache-twilers, but hey, it's one flaw to Hoshido's oh-so-perfect depiction.

The examples of Aqua's kidnapping and Ryouma's dishonorable ransom with the medicine highlight the writer's blindspot to the fact that Hoshidans are plenty hypocritical- and the fact that Nohrians don't sling mud at them for it. So despite the fact there's supposed to be a black and white hero/villian dictomy, accidental flecks of grey remain.

Mikoto's non-aggression forcefield is still the dumbest thing. A lot of things connected to IK are hamfisted and really unnecessary.

Edit: Also Aqua and Kamui seriously call Nohr "evil"? That's...does Kamui not have ANY prince(ss)ly feelings at all for the land in which they were raised?

Edited September 12, 2015 by Damosel

[Time the Crestfallen]

Edit: Also Aqua and Kamui seriously call Nohr "evil"? That's...does Kamui not have ANY prince(ss)ly feelings at all for the land in which they were raised?

Well Kamui was raised in the Northern Fortress in isolation, presumably so that they wouldn't be discovered by Hoshidan spies. Hell, Silas sneaking them out for a picnic was apparently sufficient grounds for execution. Kamui speaks about the Northern Fortress fondly in their Hoshido support with Azura, and choosing Nohr in chapter six has them say that they can't turn their back on the family that raised, but I don't really see any reason for them to have any particular love for the country itself, especially after Mikoto's death.

[JupiterKnight]

No they bring up that calling them evil is going to far. Their support was more about how both nations were supposed to be a form of balance and that the people of each nation are not evil, just different. Hoshido is super perfect while Nohr is shitty, Hoshidans want for nothing while Nohrians hunger, Hoshidan retainers are usually nobles or people from noble positions while most Nohrian retainers and playable characters are from the lower classes or not even from this world with a few exceptions, etc.

[B.Leu]

The problem I have with Takumi is simple, to me, his jerkassery make no sense, in other word, just for the sake of being a jerkass, one could argue that it was made that way to be 'the dude in wrong' or that deep down he's good guy, but it just seem so random that I wonder what the hell the writers were trying to do with him in the first place.

My point is, WTF doesn't forgive WTF.

Marx... I'm sorry but no, you can't defend him. You have your obviously dad who tried to kill your sibling, multiple time... no just, no. That dude is simply retarded. If I was Kamui Nohr side, he would be on my shit list, big time. Kill him and take his sword.
...Isn't that right Hoshido!Kamui ? sigh... --

In fact, I think this is a very smart idea: Depending of your actions, one of your older siblings, Marx/Leon if you're Nohr or Ryouma/Takumi if you're Hoshido, would die. The one who survive joins you, while the one who die... well, you take his legendary weapon.

Gotta love Fujin on Mozume. Whaddaya think ?

Hm, make me wonder what to do with the one on the other side, eheh.

Edited September 12, 2015 by B.Leu

[Frelia]

Nohr route Chapter 14: A Heavenly Singing Voice the Hoshidan commander denounces Nohrians as mongrels. Takumi in the Nohr route has a lot of examples, while I can remember Ryouma on the Hoshido route telling Kmaui they don't understand the dishonorable nature of Nohr's ways. Nohr is the "villain" to not only Hoshido but the overall game, but looking at it in-world...

It is why when mentioning that Nohr lacks said instances of racism, and has the gender-equal inheritance, I used "unintentionally". Cause it's clear to the writers regard Nohr as villians first with evil at the forefront of their actions, and they come off as possibly-not-people to hostile enemy Hoshidans on the Nohr route. HOWEVER it's just funny because on the Hoshido route Nohr lack such "dirty Hoshidans" comments and instead focus on Kamui themselves being the traitor- they don't care about Hoshidans being from Hoshido despite being actively at war for just as long (assumably) and having been inflitrated by Hoshidan assassins, ect. With the game's writing in-world Nohrians are not really racist, while overmap dialogue for Hoshido and specific characters like Oboro are. I really doubt the writers intended this to happen with trying to justify it via mustache-twilers, but hey, it's one flaw to Hoshido's oh-so-perfect depiction.

The examples of Aqua's kidnapping and Ryouma's dishonorable ransom with the medicine highlight the writer's blindspot to the fact that Hoshidans are plenty hypocritical- and the fact that Nohrians don't sling mud at them for it. So despite the fact there's supposed to be a black and white hero/villian dictomy, accidental flecks of grey remain.

Mikoto's non-aggression forcefield is still the dumbest thing. A lot of things connected to IK are hamfisted and really unnecessary.

Edit: Also Aqua and Kamui seriously call Nohr "evil"? That's...does Kamui not have ANY prince(ss)ly feelings at all for the land in which they were raised?

I was wondering if Hoshido had some sort of racism towards Nohr and it looks I was right to assume it. I understand that Hoshido has a rough time with Nohr, but it would have helped if they realized some time ago that Nohr has issues with food and if they didn't paint all Nohrians with the same brush.

It also doesn't help that some of the Hoshido folks do some really hypocritical stuff like Ryouma and his ransom in the Nohr route for example. Hoshido is coming off like a country that has issues bothering to understand other countries if they aren't like them especially if they are not oh so perfect or if it's Nohr tbh. It seriously makes me wonder how they feel about the Flame tribe.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Frelia

[JupiterKnight]

Leon's too smart to die.

Most of the issues I've actually heard about Takumi are why he even has these issues in the first place considering he lives in paradise, has loving siblings, is talented, a adoptive mother that he loves, retainers that care about him, etc. Generally I've only heard them say it's because Hinoka and Ryoma care about Kamui more than they do Takumi and Sakura.

The whole not trusting Kamui is the only one that I've ever seen brought up here.

As for Marx, I'm more ticked that for some reason Marx is suddenly no longer the person Kamui knows after accidentally killing Elise, despite him being like this in all three routes and it takes a slime monster/threatening to destroy Nohr for him to betray Garon.

[Sunwoo]

The problem I have with Takumi is simple, to me, his jerkassery make no sense, in other word, just for the sake of being a jerkass, one could argue that it was made that way to be 'the dude in wrong' or that deep down he's good guy, but it just seem so random that I wonder what the hell the writers were trying to do with him in the first place.

My point is, WTF doesn't forgive WTF.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but do you interact with people often? Like, in real life? Because people don't make sense. That is simple fact. People don't make a lick of sense. His "jerkassery" doesn't have to make sense. Some people just come off as being reserved and cold towards people they don't know. Some people are good at heart but could still be irrational about certain things and come off as a jerkass if you get on their bad side.

The only part of Takumi's character that is fucked up is Nohr endgame, when he forgives Kamui for I don't even know why.

Marx... I'm sorry but no, you can't defend him. You have your obviously dad who tried to kill your sibling, multiple time... no just, no. That dude is simply retarded. If I was Kamui Nohr side, he would be on my shit list, big time. Kill him and take his sword.

...Isn't that right Hoshido!Kamui ? sigh... --

I'm not trying to defend Marx. From what I know his character is fucked up.

Also, I'm really happy you don't take your dead brothers' holy weapons.

EDIT:

Most of the issues I've actually heard about Takumi are why he even has these issues in the first place considering he lives in paradise, has loving siblings, is talented, a adoptive mother that he loves, retainers that care about him, etc. Generally I've only heard them say it's because Hinoka and Ryoma care about Kamui more than they do Takumi and Sakura.

Takumi's issues make a hell of a lot of sense if you try to understand where he's coming from. Yes, Hoshido is a "paradise" compared to Nohr. Yes, he has a good family who loves him and whom he loves back. To be fair, there are a lot of people IRL who have a good family and good living situations, nothing they can really complain about. But we all have insecurities.

His insecurities don't have to do with just Kamui. He has to live up to a "perfect" older brother. Ryouma's bad qualities are not nearly as obvious. Even if you guys want to argue that he "blackmails" Kamui in Nohr, a lot of the mistakes Takumi makes are more apparent in Nohr route. In Takumi's eyes, Ryouma is a perfect older brother who is not only strong but wise, the prince that Hoshido needs. How is he ever going to live up to an older brother like that?

Hinoka's flaws aren't as noticeable either. She's a caring sister who threw her life into training and getting Kamui back. She is a capable and powerful fighter as well, and is more of a warrior than a princess. She's also not a prince but a princess. Considering that boys inherit before girls in Hoshido, they're likely held to different standards. He can't really compare with Hinoka. She's older, more mentally composed, and is also a strong warrior.

Sakura is the baby of the family. The pure, kind-hearted baby. She's also a girl. Do I really need to elaborate here? You can't compete with the baby of the family.

Takumi has major middle child syndrome. His older brother and his sisters are "special" for reasons, imagined or real, but the important part is that he feels they are more special than he is. No one wants to be the "unspecial" one in the family. Kamui probably doesn't help his issues considering that everyone in his family is so obsessed with this child who went missing, it probably affected him and Sakura growing up. But Sakura is, again, the baby and a girl who seems very impressionable. Naturally she's going to get more attention from the family.

No matter how good you have it growing up, there are so many little things that can contribute to low self-esteem. This really is not rocket science!

Edited September 12, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Time the Crestfallen]

The problem I have with Takumi is simple, to me, his jerkassery make no sense, in other word, just for the sake of being a jerkass, one could argue that it was made that way to be 'the dude in wrong' or that deep down he's good guy, but it just seem so random that I wonder what the hell the writers were trying to do with him in the first place.

My point is, WTF doesn't forgive WTF.

He's hardly a jerkass, and his reasons for being a dick to Kamui are entirely justifiable considering that you were raised in Nohr and are possibly a traitor. And bear in mind that you're only there for a few weeks before the township gets blown up and his mother dies. He's also around 15-17 years old and not fully matured, especially emotionally. Even ignoring this, he's the kind of person who just takes some time to warm up to people. His supports with Oboro show how nice he can be when he's with someone he likes.

I was wondering if Hoshido had some sort of racism towards Nohr and it looks I was right to assume it. I understand that Hoshido has a rough time with Nohr, but it would have helped if they realized some time ago that Nohr has issues with food and if they didn't paint all Nohrians with the same brush.

It also doesn't help that some of the Hoshido folks do some really hypocritical stuff like Ryouma and his ransom in the Nohr routefor example. Hoshido is coming off like a country who has issues bothering to understand other countries if they aren't like them esp Nohr tbh. It seriously makes me wonder how they feel about the Flame tribe.

Yep. I read the 'Can't argue with Elves' page for tvtropes recently, reminded me a lot of how Hoshido is portrayed in story.

[Thor Odinson]

The fuck are you talking about with the "ransom"

What actually went down is

Kamui goes to Makras to find medicine

Ryouma happens to be there, there's no particular reason given his presence, but the translation made it sound like he also just happened to be in the area (if you remember chapter 17 Hoshido where Takumi got sick from the same thing, it is entirely possible he's here to get shit for Takumi)

Ryouma tells Kamui they must fight now they happened upon each other

Kamui himself brings up the medicine thing and tries to tell, yaknow, the leader of the enemy nation to just step aside and leave

Ryouma takes a chance at trying to sway Kamui back in a nonviolent fashion given this new information he didn't previously know before

He does not succeed, they fight

Ryouma has no obligation to step aside for the enemy nation's princess in wartime regardless, he did not know that Elise was sick before hand and purposefully steal all the medicine in the castle just to dangle it in Kamui's face for it; He was simply already occupying the area for his own reasons and then Kamui showed up and had to just tell him everything

Like god if you're gonna shit on him at least do it with the right info not overblown stuff from fucking TV Tropes

Hoshido has its issues in portrayal but god fandom really blew up that bit more than it should

Edited September 12, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[JupiterKnight]

That's still blackmail. No matter how you sugarcoat it he's still trying to manipulate Kamui into rejoining Hoshido. Kamui even mentions that Elise is sick just to be clear about that. So Kamui has to fight their way through.

Plus he goes and says stuff like he'll gladly give away food for free on Hoshido to Nohr after learning about their lack of food. He was clearly letting his desire to have Kamui rejoin Hoshido affect his judgement.

Considering the time for the chapters I feel like chapter 17 happens later than that chapter. the dance in Muse doesn't even happen in Nohr until a couple chapters later.

Edited September 12, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Sunwoo]

I did not write a big ass paragraph about Takumi for you to ignore it.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Sunwoo