Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Time the Crestfallen]

The fuck are you talking about with the "ransom"

What actually went down is

Kamui goes to Makras to find medicine

Ryouma happens to be there, there's no particular reason given his presence, but the translation made it sound like he also just happened to be in the area (if you remember chapter 17 Hoshido where Takumi got sick from the same thing, it is entirely possible he's here to get shit for Takumi)

Ryouma tells Kamui they must fight now they happened upon each other

Kamui himself brings up the medicine thing and tries to tell, yaknow, the leader of the enemy nation to just step aside and leave

Ryouma takes a chance at trying to sway Kamui back in a nonviolent fashion given this new information he didn't previously know before

He does not succeed, they fight

Ryouma has no obligation to step aside for the enemy nation's princess in wartime regardless, he did not know that Elise was sick before hand and purposefully steal all the medicine in the castle just to dangle it in Kamui's face for it; He was simply already occupying the area for his own reasons and then Kamui showed up and had to just tell him everything

Like god if you're gonna shit on him at least do it with the right info not overblown stuff from fucking TV Tropes

Hoshido has its issues in portrayal but god fandom really blew up that bit more than it should

We're not 'shitting' on Ryoma. I don't know about everyone else, but I personally like him a lot more than most other royals. We're pointing that this particular action is an example of the story's favourable portrayal of Hoshido. If it were Xander telling Kamui to come back to Nohr or Sakura dies, it'd be pointed out as yet another of Nohr using 'dishonourable methods' to win the war, while here it's just glossed over and promptly ignored. It's also especially jarring considering that Ryoma himself complains about Nohr using dishonourable methods in chapter six and asks for them for a 'fair and honourable fight'. Using the life of an early/pre-teen as blackmail doesn't strike me as honourable.

[Thor Odinson]

I see nothing wrong with not moving aside for an enemy

Kamui is the enemy

It doesn't matter if Elise is sick, she's the princess of the enemy country and it is not Ryouma's job to move aside to make sure she's okay, she joined Kamui on the battle field, she's fair game, if you're gonna voluntarily join the battlefield, the enemy has no obligations to make sure your health is in good shape, what do you expect Ryouma to do, just be like, "oh okay" and move aside for Kamui to take the meds and get out and save the fight for another day? It's not exactly his fault Elise is sick.

They were gonna fucking fight anyway

[Frelia]

I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but do you interact with people often? Like, in real life? Because people don't make sense. That is simple fact. People don't make a lick of sense. His "jerkassery" doesn't have to make sense. Some people just come off as being reserved and cold towards people they don't know. Some people are good at heart but could still be irrational about certain things and come off as a jerkass if you get on their bad side.

The only part of Takumi's character that is fucked up is Nohr endgame, when he forgives Kamui for I don't even know why.

I'm not trying to defend Marx. From what I know his character is fucked up.

Also, I'm really happy you don't take your dead brothers' holy weapons.

EDIT:

Takumi's issues make a hell of a lot of sense if you try to understand where he's coming from. Yes, Hoshido is a "paradise" compared to Nohr. Yes, he has a good family who loves him and whom he loves back. To be fair, there are a lot of people IRL who have a good family and good living situations, nothing they can really complain about. But we all have insecurities.

His insecurities don't have to do with just Kamui. He has to live up to a "perfect" older brother. Ryouma's bad qualities are not nearly as obvious. Even if you guys want to argue that he "blackmails" Kamui in Nohr, a lot of the mistakes Takumi makes are more apparent in Nohr route. In Takumi's eyes, Ryouma is a perfect older brother who is not only strong but wise, the prince that Hoshido needs. How is he ever going to live up to an older brother like that?

Hinoka's flaws aren't as noticeable either. She's a caring sister who threw her life into training and getting Kamui back. She is a capable and powerful fighter as well, and is more of a warrior than a princess. She's also not a prince but a princess. Considering that boys inherit before girls in Hoshido, they're likely held to different standards. He can't really compare with Hinoka. She's older, more mentally composed, and is also a strong warrior.

Sakura is the baby of the family. The pure, kind-hearted baby. She's also a girl. Do I really need to elaborate here? You can't compete with the baby of the family.

Takumi has major middle child syndrome. His older brother and his sisters are "special" for reasons, imagined or real, but the important part is that he feels they are more special than he is. No one wants to be the "unspecial" one in the family. Kamui probably doesn't help his issues considering that everyone in his family is so obsessed with this child who went missing, it probably affected him and Sakura growing up. But Sakura is, again, the baby and a girl who seems very impressionable. Naturally she's going to get more attention from the family.

No matter how good you have it growing up, there are so many little things that can contribute to low self-esteem. This really is not rocket science!

Thanks for explaining why Takumi has these issues. It makes a whole lot of sense and yeah even having a good family and life can't stop that from happening. Poor Takumi. I can sympathize with him in some ways specifically when I make certain mistakes or when I feel like I didn't accomplish something as well I thought I could have.

Along with that Marx is a very messed up character. I consider him the worst affected by Garon/Gooron from what some of his supports and all three routes show. All of the Nohr siblings are affected badly including Elise in some ways, but Marx man. I wish his characterization wasn't so iffy because it has a lot of potential.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Frelia

[Time the Crestfallen]

I see nothing wrong with not moving aside for an enemy

Kamui is the enemy

It doesn't matter if Elise is sick, she's the princess of the enemy country and it is not Ryouma's job to move aside to make sure she's okay, she joined Kamui on the battle field, she's fair game, if you're gonna voluntarily join the battlefield, the enemy has no obligations to make sure your health is in good shape, what do you expect Ryouma to do, just be like, "oh okay" and move aside for Kamui to take the meds and get out and save the fight for another day? It's not exactly his fault Elise is sick.

They were gonna fucking fight anyway

You have a point, Ryoma is their enemy and he shouldn't be treated as evil for not moving aside. But at the same time, Nohr is treated as evil for attacking Hoshido with Faceless and for apparently assassinating Mikoto. Hoshido is the enemy for them and they shouldn't be vilified for doing what they can to try and win the war, but they are. The problem isn't Ryoma's actions, but the fact that Nohr is treated as being the bad guys for doing what they can to win the war and would likely be vilified again if it was Xander doing the blackmailing, while Hoshido performs a similarly underhanded tactic through using Elise's life to blackmail the Avatar and don't get called out on it. It's just an example of the story being more favourable towards Hoshido, not Ryoma being a scumbag for his actions.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but do you interact with people often? Like, in real life? Because people don't make sense. That is simple fact. People don't make a lick of sense. His "jerkassery" doesn't have to make sense. Some people just come off as being reserved and cold towards people they don't know. Some people are good at heart but could still be irrational about certain things and come off as a jerkass if you get on their bad side.

The only part of Takumi's character that is fucked up is Nohr endgame, when he forgives Kamui for I don't even know why.

I'm not trying to defend Marx. From what I know his character is fucked up.

Also, I'm really happy you don't take your dead brothers' holy weapons.

EDIT:

Takumi's issues make a hell of a lot of sense if you try to understand where he's coming from. Yes, Hoshido is a "paradise" compared to Nohr. Yes, he has a good family who loves him and whom he loves back. To be fair, there are a lot of people IRL who have a good family and good living situations, nothing they can really complain about. But we all have insecurities.

His insecurities don't have to do with just Kamui. He has to live up to a "perfect" older brother. Ryouma's bad qualities are not nearly as obvious. Even if you guys want to argue that he "blackmails" Kamui in Nohr, a lot of the mistakes Takumi makes are more apparent in Nohr route. In Takumi's eyes, Ryouma is a perfect older brother who is not only strong but wise, the prince that Hoshido needs. How is he ever going to live up to an older brother like that?

Hinoka's flaws aren't as noticeable either. She's a caring sister who threw her life into training and getting Kamui back. She is a capable and powerful fighter as well, and is more of a warrior than a princess. She's also not a prince but a princess. Considering that boys inherit before girls in Hoshido, they're likely held to different standards. He can't really compare with Hinoka. She's older, more mentally composed, and is also a strong warrior.

Sakura is the baby of the family. The pure, kind-hearted baby. She's also a girl. Do I really need to elaborate here? You can't compete with the baby of the family.

Takumi has major middle child syndrome. His older brother and his sisters are "special" for reasons, imagined or real, but the important part is that he feels they are more special than he is. No one wants to be the "unspecial" one in the family. Kamui probably doesn't help his issues considering that everyone in his family is so obsessed with this child who went missing, it probably affected him and Sakura growing up. But Sakura is, again, the baby and a girl who seems very impressionable. Naturally she's going to get more attention from the family.

No matter how good you have it growing up, there are so many little things that can contribute to low self-esteem. This really is not rocket science!

I agree with Frelia, you explained yourself very well.

[JupiterKnight]

@Sunwoo: I can understand Ryoma, but Hinoka didn't even get one of Hoshidos legendary weapons and she's not in line to take the throne should something happen to him. To be honest I feel like he should be proud of himself for getting as far as he has and coming off as a better warrior than her. But I suppose he himself likely does not see it that way.

In fact I don't even think he sees what he does as mistakes considering he's under Hydras subtle control on Nohr and Hydra is as NekoKnight put it "craycray". So he could influence him to see any action as a flawless plan to make Kamui suffer. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why Takumi shot Elise after she said something that annoyed him in the Chevalier chapter. Poor Takumi

I just wanted to know to be honest. So thanks.

I see nothing wrong with not moving aside for an enemy

Kamui is the enemy

It doesn't matter if Elise is sick, she's the princess of the enemy country and it is not Ryouma's job to move aside to make sure she's okay, she joined Kamui on the battle field, she's fair game, if you're gonna voluntarily join the battlefield, the enemy has no obligations to make sure your health is in good shape, what do you expect Ryouma to do, just be like, "oh okay" and move aside for Kamui to take the meds and get out and save the fight for another day? It's not exactly his fault Elise is sick.

They were gonna fucking fight anyway

Which would be fine, if the Hoshidans didn't portray themselves as paragons of virtue while Nohrians are portrayed as evil. In fact letting the sick die because they are the enemy is something I'd expect from a Nohrian like Iago or Ganz.

Of course Iago was up to some scheme to make Kamui suffer so he probably set things up to happen. So I can partially blame this on Iago being a moustache twirler.

Dear Naga I hate Iago.

Edited September 12, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Sunwoo]

@Sunwoo: I can understand Ryoma, but Hinoka didn't even get one of Hoshidos legendary weapons and she's not in line to take the throne should something happen to him. To be honest I feel like he should be proud of himself for getting as far as he has and coming off as a better warrior than her. But I suppose he himself likely does not see it that way.

In fact I don't even think he sees what he does as mistakes considering he's under Hydras subtle control on Nohr and Hydra is as NekoKnight put it "craycray". So he could see influence him to any action as a flawless plan to make Kamui suffer. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why Takumi shot Elise after she said something that annoyed him in the Chevalier chapter.

Again -- in Hoshido since boys inherit before girls it is highly likely they were held to different standards. Maybe Hinoka is lauded for getting so far because it is something not expected of girls, but she took her training so far and become so strong and passed all expectations. Whereas Takumi, as a male heir of Hoshido, is expected to be better than he already is.

And just because you, or anyone else, feel that someone else should be proud of their accomplishments, that doesn't mean the person you feel should be proud is going to see it that way. And please, NEVER say something like this again because it's a real issue people suffer from and it's one hell of an insensitive statement. I am in my (hopefully) last semester of grad school, getting my master's degree right now. It should be an accomplishment, not many people get that far in their education! And yet, I have been working on my degree twice as long as people normally do. I should have finished two years ago, a year at the most. I was so woefully unprepared for the scientific writing and researching process that I felt like I was blundering through everything and that I'm setting the fucking low bar for this. Should I be proud for getting as far as I did? Probably, but I sure as hell DO NOT see it that way. Other real people who are not me feel this way, and it sounds to me like Takumi probably has this issue as well.

Second of all, falling under Hydra's control is probably something he will hate myself for. Oh, he was so "weak" that he gave in to mind control -- his perfect brother nor his sisters would've never lost their minds in such a way. Especially not Ryouma, he's too strong. Just another notch on his countless insecurities.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Well, Iago is named after a goddamn Shakespeare villain in both versions. I didn't have much hope for him ever since I learnt that his Japanese name was Macbeth, because that's always a sign that your villain will be twirling their mustache so hard that it'll fall after five minutes of screen time.

[Thor Odinson]

Is it even a tactic though? He was literally there on the spot and took a shot at it with something Kamui literally told him 3 seconds ago. The thing is, as one of the more Japanese-versed people I know pointed out, Hoshido's pretty racist compared to Nohr, so there is that for reactions of Hoshidans to Norh, and I'm not denying that Nohr generally gets shit on harder for the plot and I'm pretty annoyed about that too, don't get me wrong, but I mean, what exactly are Ryouma's options? What he did there was not exactly equivalent to holding Elise at swordpoint and telling Kamui right there, with her in front of him, no you gotta join or she dies, because he was not the reason Elise is in danger in the first place.

Is there actual proof that if Marx did something like that he'd be villified, though? People getting sick is a part of humanity. Sick people die all the time.

Honestly no matter what he did y'all'd prolly villify him. If he moves aside and lets Elise get the medicine, that's honestly a dumbshit act that is ill befitting of the literal army of the enemy nation's commander. If he doesn't even offer the option to Kamui, he'd still be villified for not moving aside anyway. There's no winning.

Elise chose to step foot on the battlefield as a participant. Mikoto didn't. All Mikoto wanted was just to keep those Nosferatu out of Hoshido and there's a difference between physically coming into someone else's literal capital during a time where open conflict was still sparese and not fully escalated, literally blowing up a good part of that capital with civilians, planted on some unwilling victim who didn't even know about this plot, vs oh no here's the enemy they asked me to step aside i'm also in in the area for the life of one willing participant in war what do

Maybe I'm here saying the game shouldn't have villified Ryouma for it because it's not something to villify him about; It's a reasonable move for any military leader to make.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[JupiterKnight]

@Sunwoo: I don't hold a person in real life up to such expectations. Mostly because real life people are not something I'm as careless with my words towards, because I know even the most innocent of statements could have a big impact and hurt them.

And I was referring to how at the time when he was under Hydra's more subtle brainwashing he didn't see what he was doing as wrong or even as flaws. Not until he was truly free of Hydra on his death.

Actually now I kinda wish if there is future DLC of potential scenarios where the other Hoshido or even one of the Nohr siblings get possessed by Hydra.

@Thor Odinson: I could see Marx getting blamed for doing something like that to be honest. In fact people would hold it as another typical Nohrians being "evil" for doing it. Especially if his main reason is to take back Kamui and punish them for betraying Nohr.

If your talking about the Barrier, that doesn't work on Nosferatu/Faceless. They're mindless afterall. It only brainwashes people with minds. That's why Nohr made them in the first place. Or Hydra did. I'm not sure considering even Syalla has some as her minions because they obey anyone with strong dark magic.

They could have had a Hoshidan general in the area that forces a fight instead. Kamui and his men having to fight them off and while I might not like it, sparing the Hoshidans might make Ryoma consider giving them the medicine to heal Elise. An actual legit reason to spare all the Hoshidans in a chapter for once. Especially if Saizou let's his hotblooded nature get the best of him like he does in that one chapter of IK where he nearly commits suicide to take them down before Sakura intervenes.

Edited September 12, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[NekoKnight]

In fact, I think this is a very smart idea: Depending of your actions, one of your older siblings, Marx/Leon if you're Nohr or Ryouma/Takumi if you're Hoshido, would die. The one who survive joins you, while the one who die... well, you take his legendary weapon.

Gotta love Fujin on Mozume. Whaddaya think ?

Hm, make me wonder what to do with the one on the other side, eheh.

I thought about that but I feel like there will be enough drama of seeing your adoptive (Hoshido route) or blood family (Nohr route) members die without losing people in the family you chose.

The fuck are you talking about with the "ransom"

What actually went down is

Kamui goes to Makras to find medicine

Ryouma happens to be there, there's no particular reason given his presence, but the translation made it sound like he also just happened to be in the area (if you remember chapter 17 Hoshido where Takumi got sick from the same thing, it is entirely possible he's here to get shit for Takumi)

Ryouma tells Kamui they must fight now they happened upon each other

Kamui himself brings up the medicine thing and tries to tell, yaknow, the leader of the enemy nation to just step aside and leave

Ryouma takes a chance at trying to sway Kamui back in a nonviolent fashion given this new information he didn't previously know before

He does not succeed, they fight

Ryouma has no obligation to step aside for the enemy nation's princess in wartime regardless, he did not know that Elise was sick before hand and purposefully steal all the medicine in the castle just to dangle it in Kamui's face for it; He was simply already occupying the area for his own reasons and then Kamui showed up and had to just tell him everything

Like god if you're gonna shit on him at least do it with the right info not overblown stuff from fucking TV Tropes

Hoshido has its issues in portrayal but god fandom really blew up that bit more than it should

But I agree that Ryoma's ultimatum wasn't really unreasonable. If Elise was healthy, it would be completely normal for him to try to kill her on the battlefield so why should he care about her welfare when she's sick? I'm still curious about why Ryoma wanted Kamui back, by that point. Taking Kamui back against their will would just make them a prisoner.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Is it even a tactic though? He was literally there on the spot and took a shot at it with something Kamui literally told him 3 seconds ago. The thing is, as one of the more Japanese-versed people I know pointed out, Hoshido's pretty racist compared to Nohr, so there is that for reactions of Hoshidans to Norh, and I'm not denying that Nohr generally gets shit on harder for the plot and I'm pretty annoyed about that too, don't get me wrong, but I mean, what exactly are Ryouma's options? What he did there was not exactly equivalent to holding Elise at swordpoint and telling Kamui right there, with her in front of him, no you gotta join or she dies, because he was not the reason Elise is in danger in the first place.

Is there actual proof that if Marx did something like that he'd be villified, though? People getting sick is a part of humanity. Sick people die all the time.

Honestly no matter what he did y'all'd prolly villify him. If he moves aside and lets Elise get the medicine, that's honestly a dumbshit act that is ill befitting of the literal army of the enemy nation's commander. If he doesn't even offer the option to Kamui, he'd still be villified for not moving aside anyway. There's no winning.

Elise chose to step foot on the battlefield as a participant. Mikoto didn't. All Mikoto wanted was just to keep those Nosferatu out of Hoshido and there's a difference between physically coming into someone else's literal capital during a time where open conflict was still sparese and not fully escalated, literally blowing up a good part of that capital with civilians, planted on some unwilling victim who didn't even know about this plot, vs oh no here's the enemy they asked me to step aside i'm also in in the area for the life of one willing participant in war what do

Maybe I'm here saying the game shouldn't have villified Ryouma for it because it's not something to villify him about; It's a reasonable move for any military leader to make.

If we're talking about reasonable military decisions, why not go for 'Elise can have her medicine if you agree to face me one-on-one', which is something that the Avatar is more likely to agree to than 'come with me or no medicine for you'? Elise would be off the field, as well as Azura (who's the one that needs to find the medicine' and one other person to get Elise to a bed or whatever. In addition to this, the Avatar (who he could likely easily best in a fight at this point in the story) agreed to a one-on-one duel and he can take them back to Hoshido after he wins. Also, the problem is that withholding medicine from Elise is slightly (but not very) hypocritical on his part, considering that he asks for that the Nohrians 'face him in a fair and honourable duel' in chapter six (excuse the paraphrasing). Is withholding medicine from a dying pre/early-teen so he can force someone to let them-self be taken prisoner fair or honourable?

[Thor Odinson]

The medicine were never Ryouma's to give. They were in some vats in the castle itself, since he left the area after Kamui made him retreat, Kamui got the meds fine anyway. It's not like they're in his hands or anything.

Elise's age does not matter. She chose to place herself on the battlefield and is fair game as a soldier. She's not even forced there like a lot of actual child soldiers are. She was out of commission for one chapter like Takumi was out of commission for a single chapter.

Literally nobody gets shit on for not giving their enemies medicine with their best regards in basically every single military work I've read. People get sick and die all the time. It's a part of life.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Sunwoo]

@Sunwoo: I don't hold a person in real life up to such expectations. Mostly because real life people are not something I'm as careless with my words towards, because I know even the most innocent of statements could have a big impact and hurt them.

And I was referring to how at the time when he was under Hydra's more subtle brainwashing he didn't see what he was doing as wrong or even as flaws. Not until he was truly free of Hydra on his death.

In that case why would you say what you said at all, even if it's in regard to a fictional character? I remember an incident a year or so back on the Awakening board, when someone said Sumia was too stupid and klutzy to attract a man and that may be a reason for her limited support pool. Well, guess what? Lots of people relate to Sumia because they feel like they're clumsy. They feel like they can't do anything right. And when they hear someone else say that a person with Sumia's qualities is undesirable, that really hurts. Even if it wasn't said to them. Because it's an attack on the qualities that they have. It is a statement that goes beyond the character and reaches into real people's insecurities.

The best characters are those that are relatable in some way, shape, or form. The best characters should feel like human beings and not caricatures. Even if Takumi is fictional, a lot of the issues I feel he suffers from are most certainly NOT fictional.

And you completely ignored my point -- if he was "weak" enough to be controlled by Hydra, then that's a "flaw", especially in his eyes. One that his siblings never fell to. It doesn't help his insecurities.

[JupiterKnight]

Because I actually do like Takumi and I wanted to try to put in my own words that I like him, even if I didn't understand most of his problems.

[B.Leu]

Dear Naga I hate Iago.

Good thing he is fabulous.

Though I have to admit it is hilarious how evil things are totally evil... until Hoshido do it.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but do you interact with people often? Like, in real life? Because people don't make sense. That is simple fact. People don't make a lick of sense. His "jerkassery" doesn't have to make sense. Some people just come off as being reserved and cold towards people they don't know. Some people are good at heart but could still be irrational about certain things and come off as a jerkass if you get on their bad side.

Yes, you come off as rude, and I never want to talk to you even again....nah, just kidding. :p

In fact, you hope to not come off as rude, and you're not rude, but I'm afraid this is me who might come off as rude, and I wish I apologize in advance, because offending you is not my wish.

You made me think of something, this is not real life, this is a video game, yes, characters have to make sense, unless the writing can allows that, and it can't. And if the all other characters were like that, then, it would probably be acceptable but it's not the case, to me, Takumi just look like a drama queen (at that moment at least), and is just another piece of bad writing in this game.

I guess we should just agree to disagree.

Also, we do all agree, Takumi forgiving Kamui was complete and utter BS.

Finally, yes, you do take the weapon of your dead brother, especially if said weapons is legendary and give bonus such as +5 Str or ignore terrain. And especially when weapons in general are hard to find.

I thought about that but I feel like there will be enough drama of seeing your adoptive (Hoshido route) or blood family (Nohr route) members die without losing people in the family you chose.

We're in a war, not in a hentai. Of course people will die, it would be not fun. ;-(

Plus I like the idea of one of the sibling actually doing crap, like y'know tension inside you side.

Now, for the third path, it's either all the older sibling die, or just two. Hmmm...

Edited September 12, 2015 by B.Leu

[Time the Crestfallen]

The medicine were never Ryouma's to give. They were in some vats in the castle itself, since he left the area after Kamui made him retreat, Kamui got the meds fine anyway. It's not like they're in his hands or anything.

Elise's age does not matter. She chose to place herself on the battlefield and is fair game as a soldier. She's not even forced there like a lot of actual child soldiers are. She was out of commission for one chapter like Takumi was out of commission for a single chapter.

Literally nobody gets shit on for not giving their enemies medicine with their best regards in basically every single military work I've read. People get sick and die all the time. It's a part of life.

My point isn't that Ryoma shouldn't have given them the medicine, and it's true that people don't give their enemies medicine (except for POW camps, but I'm not sure if that counts). My point is that if it was Sakura who was sick and Xander making the 'you can get the medicine if you come back to Nohr' offer, it would be seen as an example of Nohr's 'dirty tactics' and he would be vilified for it, while here it's treated as a simply an excuse for them to fight. Ryoma is never called out as being evil for blackmailing the Avatar (and I agree with you that he shouldn't), but Xander would be. We're not badmouthing Ryoma, we're using it as an example of the stories bias towards Hoshido. Maybe we should just agree to disagree, I'm not fond of forum arguments...

Edited September 12, 2015 by Phillius

[Thor Odinson]

1) Do you actually have proof that Marx would've been badmouthed for it instead of conjecture, for what I know of the story, Marx was painted in a pretty fucking good light in Nohr 18

2) I thought we're here to try to make the game make reasonable reactions to events, not add more unreasonable ones

Edited September 12, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Sunwoo]

My point isn't that Ryoma shouldn't have given them the medicine, and it's true that people don't give their enemies medicine (except for POW camps, but I'm not sure if that counts). My point is that if it was Sakura who was sick and Xander making the 'you can get the medicine if you come back to Nohr' offer, it would be seen as an example of Nohr's 'dirty tactics' and he would be vilified for it, while here it's treated as a simply an excuse for them to fight. Ryoma is never called out as being evil for blackmailing the Avatar (and I agree with you that he shouldn't), but Xander would be. We're not badmouthing Ryoma, we're using it as an example of the stories bias towards Hoshido. Maybe we should just agree to disagree, I'm not fond of forum arguments...

I think I'm seeing little sister bias more than anything. On the Hoshido path, it was Takumi and not Sakura who got sick. For some reason, I imagine that if the positions were reversed, if Marx met Kamui in Hoshido 17 when Kamui went to get the medicine for Takumi, more people would be yelling at Kamui to just let Takumi die because he's annoying than vilifying Marx for not giving him the medicine.

Now, if Sakura got sick, I imagine that people would be yelling at Marx because Sakura is a cute little sister. Not because he is Nohr.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Are you sure? I never really found Takumi all that annoying. Although, I use the supports instead of story portrayal as my judge for character quality, so maybe I just missed something.

[JupiterKnight]

Wasn't Iago the enemy for that chapter?

Though if Takumi got sick and Marx tried to use the situation for the same reason I have no doubt people would still use it against Nohr for doing something underhanded like that. Not everyone would because some people dislike Takumi or if they're especially twisted they want him to suffer as a form of bullying.

Teasing both him and Leon is a thing apparently.

Edited September 12, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Sunwoo]

Are you sure? I never really found Takumi all that annoying. Although, I use the supports instead of story portrayal as my judge for character quality, so maybe I just missed something.

Although Takumi is my favorite character, there seems to be a very vocal part of the fanbase that hates his guts because either he doesn't worship you or because he's persistent in Nohr. At the very least, I imagine he would get less sympathy than a sick Elise or Sakura.

EDIT: Which is why I said "IMAGINE IF".

Edited September 12, 2015 by Sunwoo

[JupiterKnight]

He'd still get sympathy though. That's the thing. Maybe not as much as them, but he would still get it.

[Ryo]

Gameplay-wise, Takumi is also the source of frustration on Nohr chapter 10 :p

[Time the Crestfallen]

Oh yeah, I've seen the playthroughts. *Shudder*

Edit: As a side note, we've talked a lot about rewriting Fates, but has anyone actually started? I'd be interested in reading them if anyone has.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Phillius

[Thane]

Gameplay-wise, Takumi is also the source of frustration on Nohr chapter 10 :p

"I've totally got this! Nohr isn't so tough!"

*Dragon Vein*

"Oh shit oh shit oh shit oh shit!"