Opinion of Gaiden?

[Irysa]

Well to be fair, the game doesn't encourage you to train your Healers. They dont get EXP for Healing and have to rely on a 50% accuracy Resire to do any combat until promotion. If Healers leveled up normally then it would be pretty normal to expect players to have Dear by the time annoying summoners show up but as it stands unless you have foresight you'll get held up in those segments.

[secondworld]

Gaiden is my least favorite FE on the basis that it's the one I have the least fun playing. Everything about this game is way too slow and tedious for me to find any significant amount of enjoyment. I don't think I can call it a bad game though, for its time. I like a lot of its ideas and to this day its implementation of the world map is my favorite in the series. One last thing I'll say about it is that I have no idea how this game ended up being a step back in story from FE1.

If FE1 has a user interface that is significantly inferior to Gaiden, then I'm both intrigued and scared how that one might look like. I guess I really need to finally start playing that game.

I'm rather confused by his statement given that the two games have identical UIs.

[Shrouded In Myth]

Well, the thing is, while the game itself is harmless, the download site contained pornographic ads. So I think that I can't link it. Probably would have made a topic about the game if that problem didn't exist, seeing how it's pretty interesting but seems to be basically unknown in the English speaking parts of the Internet. The only thing I could find was a single video on Youtube with barely more then 2000 views. Besides, I could have needed some help coming up with a good strategy against Walpugisnight. I'm completely at a loss about how to approach her.

The youtube video has the link to the fangame in the description. You may be able to link to the video , but you may want to check with the mods first.

[Icemario]

Well to be fair, the game doesn't encourage you to train your Healers. They dont get EXP for Healing and have to rely on a 50% accuracy Resire to do any combat until promotion. If Healers leveled up normally then it would be pretty normal to expect players to have Dear by the time annoying summoners show up but as it stands unless you have foresight you'll get held up in those segments.

Well, other Fire Emblems don't encourage you to train your healers. Nor does Gaiden encourage you to train your other units, it just gives you them. The closest thing to that is how it's not dumb like FE1 (iirc) because you can actually counterattack with them, so that distinct change should alter the mindset of players and make them more inclined to use healers to fight. Plus they need to use it so they can keep healing, as spells cost health points in the game.

Anyhow, Resire is actually a pretty great spell, once you get past the 50% accuracy and avoid heavily relying on it during the Player Phase. When your healer gets hit, they'll probably be recovering most of it assuming they land the counterattack, usually more in the early stages of the game when they're more frail. Considering it's magic meaning it's ranged, you don't really have anything to lose by sending them at an enemy in most scenarios because the healer can just recover the damage they're exposed to more often than not if they miss, especially if it's a physical unit. Only real dangers to them beyond really hard-hitters are archer-line units, because they can outrange them AND deal good damage generally.

When I realized this, I used my healers decently often, and only gained. I didn't expect to need Dear that much, especially on Celica's side where it's just falcon knights eating monsters for breakfast, lunch, and dinner with a side of fries.

[GrySun]

Yeah that's why the Dear spell exists; summoners become obsolete at that point, especially if you have someone to heal the unit with the skill. By the time I got both Dear, it was mid Chapter 3, long before any really painful summoners, bar the map in the far east with Celica.

The only map with witches summoning witches was this late Chapter 4 one on Alm's side, that was probably the only legitimately painful instance of summoning because you can't Dear them and they use magic.

Yeah but there's not much reason leveling your healers, aside from it being ridiculously hard as it is as they don't get exp from healing and must rely on a rather crappy attack skill which has low hit odds. By the time any of my healers had the dear spell I was in the final maps of the game. And I didn't grind anywhere as it wasn't needed and the game worked perfectly fine without grinding, and yet you must put up with the summoners if you didn't at least grind your healers, something I didn't expect.

The witches one is strange, as it happened randomly that some enemies can summon witches and some can't. Oh and I forgot, there was one spooky strange spell(forgot the name) that didn't have an animation, only a textbox saying that it was used, which hits every unit you have, which somehow happened purely on random during random chapters IIRC?

[Icemario]

Levelling your healers requires a bit of babying from my experience, that's about it.

When they get levels they get better spells to serve the party better; I didn't know this, so it was a pleasant surprise.

Oh and I forgot, there was one spooky strange spell(forgot the name) that didn't have an animation, only a textbox saying that it was used, which hits every unit you have, which somehow happened purely on random during random chapters IIRC?

This one, I have absolutely no recollection of and I don't think SF has anything like that on the Gaiden pages. Seeing as there's no spell like that in any games, maybe you mean Fortify?

[GrySun]

This one, I have absolutely no recollection of and I don't think SF has anything like that on the Gaiden pages. Seeing as there's no spell like that in any games, maybe you mean Fortify?

No not fortify, it was definitely a spell maybe one or two bosses of the game were even capable of using, and the chances of them using it was so low that it's possible to never see it in a playthrough. Wish I remembered it's name, I'll have to look through everything to find it.

EDIT: It was called megaquake, and it was used by Jamil, a strange somewhat-important boss of some mission. Apparently Doma can use the spell too but I've never seen him do it, only once by Jamil.

Edited October 1, 2015 by GrySun

[Byte2222]

I am very fond of Gaiden. Clever ideas, aged poorly, yada yada, I'd really love to see a judicious remake.

This one, I have absolutely no recollection of and I don't think SF has anything like that on the Gaiden pages. Seeing as there's no spell like that in any games, maybe you mean Fortify?

That was mega quake, I believe. As I understand it, it appears in the last few maps (notably Doma's Gate) and, on the off-chance that it happens, it's quite a nasty surprise

Edited October 1, 2015 by Byte2222

[MCProductions]

I actually found leveling Healers EASIER in Gaiden than your typical FE, because they have Nosferatu. Sure, it's hitrate is crap, but the fact early game healers could fight at all in this game, combined with my usual lack of a need for healers for healing purposes, means I could actually field them in this game without feeling like I'm wasting a deployment slot.

Also, curse this thread for making me want to play this game again

[Celice]

I'm rather confused by his statement given that the two games have identical UIs.

Gaiden's interface is more responsive and updates regularly on the screen, whereas FE1 is more janky and delayed, and can draw slower on the screen. The two UIs might visually feel similar but how they react to input is pretty different, from my experience.

Well, the thing is, while the game itself is harmless, the download site contained pornographic ads. So I think that I can't link it. Probably would have made a topic about the game if that problem didn't exist, seeing how it's pretty interesting but seems to be basically unknown in the English speaking parts of the Internet. The only thing I could find was a single video on Youtube with barely more then 2000 views. Besides, I could have needed some help coming up with a good strategy against Walpugisnight. I'm completely at a loss about how to approach her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/3n53sr/fire_emblem_gaiden_madoka_magica/

Is this what you were talking about?

[Irysa]

Well, other Fire Emblems don't encourage you to train your healers. Nor does Gaiden encourage you to train your other units, it just gives you them. The closest thing to that is how it's not dumb like FE1 (iirc) because you can actually counterattack with them, so that distinct change should alter the mindset of players and make them more inclined to use healers to fight. Plus they need to use it so they can keep healing, as spells cost health points in the game.

This is a ridiculous argument. You train combat units because you need to use combat units to kill things to advance in the game. Healers are bad at combat, but they can Heal. Healing does not give EXP so they do not level up, and because they do not level up they do not make it to a level that they need to learn Dear.

Anyhow, Resire is actually a pretty great spell, once you get past the 50% accuracy and avoid heavily relying on it during the Player Phase. When your healer gets hit, they'll probably be recovering most of it assuming they land the counterattack, usually more in the early stages of the game when they're more frail. Considering it's magic meaning it's ranged, you don't really have anything to lose by sending them at an enemy in most scenarios because the healer can just recover the damage they're exposed to more often than not if they miss, especially if it's a physical unit. Only real dangers to them beyond really hard-hitters are archer-line units, because they can outrange them AND deal good damage generally.

When I realized this, I used my healers decently often, and only gained. I didn't expect to need Dear that much, especially on Celica's side where it's just falcon knights eating monsters for breakfast, lunch, and dinner with a side of fries.

It's not a question of how hard it is to feed them kills, it's a question of "is a player inclined in any capacity to attempt to feed exp to Healers without foresight" and the numerous immediate disadvantages outweigh the immediate advantages.

Lets break this down.

Silk and Jenny are fragile, weak and slow and only have access to a single spell that has 50% or worse accuracy. Exposing them to the enemy on enemy phase when they are fragile, weak, slow and inaccurate puts them at risk of dying, or else slows down maps and causes you to get bogged down in enemies that good units like Alm or Celica could have killed or reliably damaged. Having them attack on Player Phase stops them from being able to fufill their niche of healing other units, which is a big deal given the only other way to Heal is to stand on a Fort. Having them not Heal on Player Phase thus increases the risk of other combat units dying, or else slows down maps and causes you to get bogged down in enemies because your units are not fighting and killing as many units as they could be otherwise (this is doubly true when you can't use Magic without reducing your HP).

The ONLY immediately obvious benefit to leveling up Silk and Jenny is that their Mag stat might go up, which makes them Heal for more. This is a very minor point. You would have to intuit that since your other Magic Users are learning spells via level ups that Healers would too, in order to have any significant reason to bother. But, it's extremely reasonable for a player to intuit that they will learn more damage spells, not utility spells, and given the Healers are bad at combat in the first place, not see this as worth it.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

But, it's extremely reasonable for a player to intuit that they will learn more damage spells, not utility spells

No, it's not reasonable at all. Unless you've never even heard of RPGs before (in which case, why are you playing an obscure Japan-only NES game?) you'll know that wizards use attack magic, and priests use healing magic. Silk is fairly obviously a cleric, and even someone who hasn't played FE before (if there is anyone who starts with Gaiden) can tell she is a specialised healer. If you have played FE before, you'll know of Fire/Heal, and how generally, non-promoted units have only tomes or staves as a general rule.

At this point, you may wonder why clerics have Resire. Could they be like Jugdral shamans, who use both tomes and staves? If you think about it for a while, though, you will note the following things;

- clerics only have Resire, and only clerics have Resire

- It's the only magic that doesn't cost HP, and it restores your HP

- It's inaccurate

Clearly, it's meant as a last resort/way to restore your HP (since they can't heal themselves), and the inaccuracy is so they don't obsolete mages.

It's not easy to train clerics in Gaiden without grinding, and there's no indication they will learn a monster-banishing spell when levelled up. But assuming there's no benefit to training them is poor logic and bad strategy, and Gaiden does well to punish the player's lack of long-term planning.

[Irysa]

That argument falls apart when you consider that Sages and Celica learn to Heal anyway and they're going to be leveling up a hell of a lot faster than Silk or Jenny. You are stretching things pretty far if you're saying that because genre-savvy players can intuit that Healers tend to learn some utility spells or buffs that the player is going to bother investing a huge amount of time and effort and exp shrines into dumping EXP into terrible combat units so they can get a spell that is important in the mid to lategame. I'll accept that it's not actually altogether unlikely or unreasonable to just assume a player trains their Healers when they see an opportunity to give them EXP, but if you aren't grinding then the rate of EXP gain is too slow without prioritisation or EXP shrine allocation.

Also Gaiden doesn't really punish a player for lack of planning at all with the exception of the time Alm gets stuck in Zombie Dragon Mountain because you could always just backtrack and grind your Healers on the infinitely respawning enemies.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Irysa

[Naglfar94]

Fire Emblem Gaiden was very good in my opinion I know not many say this often but I think Gaiden is the best Fire Emblem in the series second to Genealogy of the Holy War. There was so much different in gaiden and the ideas were great the world map system, weapons that never break so you could equip a permanent weapon on a unit (IS please bring this feature back in future FE games it felt so good not constantly buying weapons)

Another thing I liked about Gaiden is your units learned magic spells and kept them again no breakable weapons however the magic system was majorly flawed as spells cost HP to use I hate using up HP as it just helps the enemies kill your mages so I couldn`t really frontline them much unless they had Rizzia speaking of which healers could fight in this one another unique idea that should had remained.

It had decent challenge too and interesting items I can`t remember it completely but I think there was a shield type item in the game that boosted all stats by +50? I don`t know I know it was a very good item and that growth rate increae item too that boosted growth rate greatly I made a powerhouse team by the end.

Another game that is really similar to Gaiden which is why it is so awesome is Tear Ring Saga it is like Genealogy of the Holy War and Gaiden combined into one game. Anyway back on topic Gaiden is wonderful and a great improvement over FE1 it fixed a lot of what FE1 did wrong. The only bad point I can give it is again there is no movement grid on the maps to see where your units can move and it is kinda clunky cause well it is old and all.. But those should in no way stop anyone from playing it. Also one last thing the traditional RPG elements was a ice touch I greatly wanna see another Fire Emblem game use that system you could visit villages, go through various cave or even solve puzzles I liked that.

[Baldrick]

That argument falls apart when you consider that Sages and Celica learn to Heal anyway and they're going to be leveling up a hell of a lot faster than Silk or Jenny.

Sages are promoted, and technically Celica is a prepromote. Just because Erk and Serra can use staves and tomes after promotion, doesn't mean they don't have different niches before promotion.

Also Gaiden doesn't really punish a player for lack of planning at all with the exception of the time Alm gets stuck in Zombie Dragon Mountain because you could always just backtrack and grind your Healers on the infinitely respawning enemies.

Having to grind on several random encounters in a row to get Silk to Dear is tedious af, how do you not consider that punishment?

But weren't you saying before that healers are have terrible combat and nobody would bother to train them? I can't follow your argument at all.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Dylan Thomas

[Irysa]

Having to grind on several random encounters in a row to get Silk to Dear is tedious af, how do you not consider that punishment?

Because you can make an argument that it's easier to train her on the trash enemies that you fight in shrines via grinding than bothering to do so in the actual maps of the game where you'll get set back significantly further against tougher enemies.

But weren't you saying before that healers are have terrible combat and nobody would bother to train them? I can't follow your argument at all.

No, I said there's no apparent imperative to put a lot of effort into trying to train Silk and Jenny because their apparent primary purpose is satisfied at base. They suck in combat, ergo players will not make a large effort to use them in combat, ergo they will not gain levels at a pace that isn't slow as all hell, ergo they don't make it to Dear in time. Group EXP then trying to chip for a levelup is the most common way for them to be getting anywhere.

Sages are promoted, and technically Celica is a prepromote. Just because Erk and Serra can use staves and tomes after promotion, doesn't mean they don't have different niches before promotion.

How is Celica technically a prepromote? Her level goes back to 1 after you get the Tiara thing even if there are no base stat differences between her classes. The point is that claims about how "Wizards get Attack Magic and Healers get Healing/Support Magic" as a genre trope hardly follows when the game doesn't even obey those rules and attackers learn how to heal.

Irrespective of these silly tangents, you can't seriously claim that an uninformed player is going to have any sort of reason to attempt to put a large amount of effort into feeding Silk and Jenny EXP when it's such a pain in the ass. We can allow for them probably getting a few levels but Dear is a long LONG way off.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Irysa

[Refa]

Female mages promote into Celica's base class (Priest) at level 20. Her going back to level 1 doesn't really invalidate his argument in a game where there are third tier promotions.

[Irysa]

Mages don't have third tier though. And under those kinds of conditions, aren't units like Luka and Clive prepromotes too? We might say Villager is Tier 0 but the distinction for that seems kinda arbitrary.

But I understand the point now, I forgot that F-Mages promoted to Priests, not Sages (since F-Mages promote at level 20 which is never happening...)

Edited October 2, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

Because you can make an argument that it's easier to train her on the trash enemies that you fight in shrines via grinding than bothering to do so in the actual maps of the game where you'll get set back significantly further against tougher enemies.

If you keep grinding on weak enemies the exp will dry up. You're not saving any effort, you're just doing it all in one hit.

ergo they will not gain levels at a pace that isn't slow as all hell,

Cleric exp gain is actually really fast because of their class strength.

How is Celica technically a prepromote?

Female mages promote to priests.

Irrespective of these silly tangents,

You're the one who brought up this tangent by claiming a cleric would be expected to learn exclusively attack magic, just saying.

you can't seriously claim that an uninformed player is going to have any sort of reason to attempt to put a large amount of effort into feeding Silk and Jenny EXP when it's such a pain in the ass. We can allow for them probably getting a few levels but Dear is a long LONG way off.

Yes, I can. Most people wouldn't start with Gaiden even if they go in blind, so they'll be aware that staves/white magic has far more utility than just Heal.

Once they know that magic is learnt by level-up, why would they assume the clerics won't learn useful spells?

[Irysa]

If you keep grinding on weak enemies the exp will dry up. You're not saving any effort, you're just doing it all in one hit.

The comparative effort required to grind on weak enemies who are all boxed in a small area is much lower than actually having to set up numerous kills in maps with more pressing concerns.

Cleric exp gain is actually really fast because of their class strength.

It's still bad because of how often they miss and how weak their combat is.

You're the one who brought up this tangent by claiming a cleric would be expected to learn exclusively attack magic, just saying.

No I said it's not unreasonable for a player to intuit that they would be learning combat magic on level up, especially when Resire is such a shitty offensive spell. PS: They do.

Yes, I can. Most people wouldn't start with Gaiden even if they go in blind, so they'll be aware that staves/white magic has far more utility than just Heal.

Once they know that magic is learnt by level-up, why would they assume the clerics won't learn useful spells?

Absoloute conjecture. One could incorrectly assume that since the game is old, it will be mechanically primitive as well and thus have no advanced utility magic. Bringing in all these extraneous factors does nothing to prove that an average player without foresight will not have spells like Dear by the time they are important, because they will not put a high priority on feeding Jenny and Silk EXP. If you want to be extremely picky, it's likely they'll have leveled up a bit, but won't have in time, and there are other factors to do with just trying to utilise many units and "just in case" approaches, but those don't detract from a core design problem that was fixed in the very next game; Healers get EXP for doing their job.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Irysa

[Augestein]

It's doing way too many things to be on the system that it is. Most of the problems seem to stem from the "we don't have enough space or the technology." That said, I'd like it more if the maps weren't so... Mediocre. I do like the villagers though, you get to have some customization of your team rather than simply being handed random units. It's nice.

[Celice]

It's doing way too many things to be on the system that it is. Most of the problems seem to stem from the "we don't have enough space or the technology." That said, I'd like it more if the maps weren't so... Mediocre. I do like the villagers though, you get to have some customization of your team rather than simply being handed random units. It's nice.

From what I remember, FE2's level format works in 32x32 chunks of preset tiles, where as FE1 and most other tile-based games work on every 16x16 tile. 32x32 was usually used in action platformers, and didn't allow as much finesse or control over the map design as you were working with larger premade blocks instead of each individual tile.

That doesn't mean you can't make good maps working with preset "puzzle pieces", but it could be one of the reasons map design wasn't so hot in FE2.

[Baldrick]

No I said it's not unreasonable for a player to intuit that they would be learning combat magic on level up, especially when Resire is such a shitty offensive spell. PS: They do.

That's not what you said.

But, it's extremely reasonable for a player to intuit that they will learn more damage spells, not utility spells

not utility spells

I don't know why you think you can get away with lying.

One could incorrectly assume that since the game is old, it will be mechanically primitive as well and thus have no advanced utility magic.

And this isn't conjecture on your part because...

[Augestein]

From what I remember, FE2's level format works in 32x32 chunks of preset tiles, where as FE1 and most other tile-based games work on every 16x16 tile. 32x32 was usually used in action platformers, and didn't allow as much finesse or control over the map design as you were working with larger premade blocks instead of each individual tile.

That doesn't mean you can't make good maps working with preset "puzzle pieces", but it could be one of the reasons map design wasn't so hot in FE2.

Now that's interesting. I didn't realize that was the problem there. No kidding on that one.

Probably. I wonder why they decided to do that? Was IS working on anything else at the time?

[Shrouded In Myth]

Gaiden's interface is more responsive and updates regularly on the screen, whereas FE1 is more janky and delayed, and can draw slower on the screen. The two UIs might visually feel similar but how they react to input is pretty different, from my experience.

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/3n53sr/fire_emblem_gaiden_madoka_magica/

Is this what you were talking about?

Yup, are you CelicetheGreat on reddit?