My issue with the current support system.

[veetasoy]

Aside from the points that previous posters brought up, another issue I have with the marriage system is that it simply takes too long to raise support ranks. For the many players who intend to get all the children, this means having to grind supports. For a series that traditionally limits to the number of chapters you can complete (excepting 8 and 13 with their optional battles), it ruined the pacing of the game and forced me to pair units in less than efficient ways during battle just to boost their support. Prior to 13, you could get away with not maxing out supports because the bonuses weren't that important, but if you don't support grind 13's first generation, you have a good chance of missing out on whole chapters and characters. If they had to do the children system, I wish the developers didn't make levelling supports such a chore.

Even having replayed 13 countless times, it was very difficult to have all the mothers at S without planning on how you want to deploy characters. I ended up choosing one character from each pairing to focus on levelling so they don't die, and having the other partner deployed for as many chapters as an S rank requires, then immediately ditch one or both of them for the next pairing, since deployment slots were limited. It made replays incredibly unfun, as I was forced to bring in units I never wanted to use in the first place (e.g. Ricken, Donnel), and I hated having to compromise efficiency for supports.

[Vitezen]

While limited supports doesn't guarantee better writing, the inverse is true I believe, meaning that you can't have good supports with unlimited options. The fact that everyone needs to support everyone becomes a constraint, not a liberty.

In most cases you have characters being boiled down to such a simple personality that there's no way they can't be combined with anyone else. There's no potential for a conflict or mismatch because it's so vague and shallow that anyone could be friends with anyone. But real people aren't like that. They have depth, and personality, and will simply not match with others all the time. This process leads to abhorrent support writing that is either nonsensical or completely forgettable.

Ex. Tharja is constantly abusive to almost everyone she talks to except Robin, and acts like a creepy schoolgirl with them. Regardless, every single male she talks to tolerates this garbage and even falls in love with her. Why? Because the support structure says so. The writing is subordinate to the mechanic.

Why does every S-support have to be a marriage RIGHT NOW? Because the support structure says so. Kamui is able to marry his biological siblings and no one bats an eye; Why? Because the support structure says so. (Not saying it should be forbidden, but how would this even work out? Can everyone just marry their brothers and sisters in this country? This could easily be avoided by just having them become LOVERS instead of whipping out the ring.) How can Cordelia still talk about loving Chrom when she's already married someone else? Because the support structure says so.

As I said, this doesn't mean that changing the support structure will make the writing magically better. You can still write trash of your own free will without being constrained by anything. But so many bad choices are justified by the fact that the support structure requires parallels for every single person, and this doesn't work when you want good writing.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Vitezen

[Duke of Dozel]

Ex. Tharja is constantly abusive to almost everyone she talks to except Robin, and acts like a creepy schoolgirl with them. Regardless, every single male she talks to tolerates this garbage and even falls in love with her. Why? Because the support structure says so. The writing is subordinate to the mechanic.

This reminds me heavily of Pieri. A childish lunatic with mood swings and very self centered and constantly threatens the lives of random people, her only saving graces are that she's a great fighter and a good cook. Everyone she supports with just feels burdened in my opinion. Just check out her S support with Benoit:

P: Pieri can’t be anything but special! Beniot can only be nice to Pieri!

B: Unfortunately….it’s a bit late for that…

P: WEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhh! Benoit is a big idiot! Fine then, fine! That’s fine!! Pieri will just kill any girl Beniot is nice to!

B: …………………

P: Pieri is serious! Pieri will really do it! The moment Beniot is nice to them I’ll slash right down the back! Or maybe chop off their heads?

Another example could stem from the hilariously bad (imo) support of Belka and Xander:

Belka: …..Marx-sama. There's one thing I want to hear…. if I become your wife…if the time comes when you have to kill me for the sake of the country….Would you kill me then?

Marx: …….Yes.

Belka: …I'm glad. It was an unnecessary concern. Then Marx-sama….I will happily accept your proposal.

Marx: Thank you. I'm very happy. It's sudden, but let's go to the slums.

Such love right there.

[Minischew]

This reminds me heavily of Pieri. A childish lunatic with mood swings and very self centered and constantly threatens the lives of random people, her only saving graces are that she's a great fighter and a good cook. Everyone she supports with just feels burdened in my opinion. Just check out her S support with Benoit:

P: Pieri can’t be anything but special! Beniot can only be nice to Pieri!

B: Unfortunately….it’s a bit late for that…

P: WEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhh! Benoit is a big idiot! Fine then, fine! That’s fine!! Pieri will just kill any girl Beniot is nice to!

B: …………………

P: Pieri is serious! Pieri will really do it! The moment Beniot is nice to them I’ll slash right down the back! Or maybe chop off their heads?

Another example could stem from the hilariously bad (imo) support of Belka and Xander:

Belka: …..Marx-sama. There's one thing I want to hear…. if I become your wife…if the time comes when you have to kill me for the sake of the country….Would you kill me then?

Marx: …….Yes.

Belka: …I'm glad. It was an unnecessary concern. Then Marx-sama….I will happily accept your proposal.

Marx: Thank you. I'm very happy. It's sudden, but let's go to the slums.

Such love right there.

Belka/Xander is so romantic. I'm crying. Best support, 10/10.

To be honest, I think the whole issue could have been really interesting and made for a unique dynamic between the two characters if it was handled better.

[dragonlordsd]

I agree that the original support system was better, as it allowed for more depth for the interactions. In both this and awakening, a lot of the supports felt extremely forced, which kind of hurt.

My dream system would be to have support questlines, similar to bioware games. However, instead of having them be just with the main character, they'd be between the two chosen characters.

They could be implemented as challenges like, heal x character a certain number of times with y character to advance support a level.

That way, a lot of the throw away lines like "you always are protecting me" would actually be true. It would reflect on how the units actually perform in battle.

[NekoKnight]

This reminds me heavily of Pieri. A childish lunatic with mood swings and very self centered and constantly threatens the lives of random people, her only saving graces are that she's a great fighter and a good cook. Everyone she supports with just feels burdened in my opinion. Just check out her S support with Benoit:

P: Pieri can’t be anything but special! Beniot can only be nice to Pieri!

B: Unfortunately….it’s a bit late for that…

P: WEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhh! Benoit is a big idiot! Fine then, fine! That’s fine!! Pieri will just kill any girl Beniot is nice to!

B: …………………

P: Pieri is serious! Pieri will really do it! The moment Beniot is nice to them I’ll slash right down the back! Or maybe chop off their heads?

To think a character like Marx would have Pieri as a subordinate, let alone marry her is pretty absurd.

[Time the Crestfallen]

This reminds me heavily of Pieri. A childish lunatic with mood swings and very self centered and constantly threatens the lives of random people, her only saving graces are that she's a great fighter and a good cook. Everyone she supports with just feels burdened in my opinion. Just check out her S support with Benoit:

P: Pieri can’t be anything but special! Beniot can only be nice to Pieri!

B: Unfortunately….it’s a bit late for that…

P: WEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhh! Benoit is a big idiot! Fine then, fine! That’s fine!! Pieri will just kill any girl Beniot is nice to!

B: …………………

P: Pieri is serious! Pieri will really do it! The moment Beniot is nice to them I’ll slash right down the back! Or maybe chop off their heads?

I'm gonna wait and see what the localisation does with Pieri before judging. After all, NA changed Henry pretty heavily from his localisation and he was one of the most popular characters in the West (I think. Don't quote me on that...).

Edited November 14, 2015 by Phillius

[Giga Man]

Before i say anything i just want to point out that i have been trying to avoid spoilers until the English release, that said i do know the basic new and returning features. First off fates has some "unconventional" features. The homosexual relations was out of left field but not bad from what i hear, the fire emblem amie (you know what i mean) is kinda creepy but its optional so i don't mind. In fact many new changes i thought were awesome including the re-imagined weapon triangle and the absence of durability which actually makes the forge useful. I think my biggest issue really isn't about fates specifically but more on the return of free marriage and supports. Hear me out on this, what made supports in other games so charming to you? I cant answer for you but for me it felt like they were actual people in conversation. I didn't notice until a while after awakening but i just didn't feel that with it. I liked the characters quirks and personalities so why didn't i enjoy their supports? I concluded it was because you could have anyone with anyone. In a school classroom do you make friends and find common interests with everyone in class? i doubt it and its the same here. No matter how interesting the characters are on paper having everyone get along makes them feel cardboard as a whole. In blazing sword the dynamic between Matthew and Jaffar is tense, and it should be! I wouldn't want to be on the same continent with someone who killed my only family. They do end up working together but they shouldn't have to like each other and that's natural. In terms of marriage so many seem extremely forced. I like having options but choices feel worthless to me if it doesn't feel right. Donny is an amazing unit but i don't know how anyone has him marry and thinks he legitimately fits with any of the girls as a character. It doesn't help that some people play the game and pair up purely to create perfect children. When the characters relationships are like this its almost taunting people to disregard character dynamics simply to maximize potential. When i see people doing this it makes me feel sad, like the humanity inside these characters doesn't exist. They go from being the Shepherds to the livestock. Don't get me wrong i'm REALLY looking forward to fates as a whole, So many changes are happening for the better. Even so to me supports were special because they were limited but not forced, does anyone else think this should have been one of those things?

I'm 100% with you, dude. I've been saying this for a while. I started with Awakening, and while I love it to death, I started seeing its flaws in supports when I played Blazing Sword. To be honest, supports are what I live for in a Fire Emblem game. I ADORE character interaction, which is why... Eh, if you're interested, just read this big post I made last month that basically covers this topic: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=57900&page=15#entry4074677

Also, I dunno how old the characters are, but Lissa is Donnel's best marriable option to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TISl21xena8&index=192&list=PLn3Wm-3X3v7BeGE9LRc0h6qvyGUXz-DJL

Why should Tharja be able to support with someone like Stahl, or Vaike? Neither of them have anything in common with her, and quite frankly, most of the male units she can support with don't have anything in common with her. Honestly, for Tharja, the only ones who should have been able to support with her, aside from the few females she could support with, should be her children, Libra, Henry, and Avatar. And that's just one example.

Nowi is actually the only female Tharja supports, which is surprising to me, but all that is beside the point. I do think that her support with Gregor was meaningful for the sake of Gregor's backstory, but they didn't need an S rank. Just because they're the opposite sex doesn't mean they should get married, which is a point I brought up in the big post I referenced above. In fact, for Tharja, she shouldn't be marrying anybody but the avatar.

That said, I do understand where it's coming from. It gives you free reign to decide who your units interact with, because, let's face it, whether you like someone or not, if you're forced to fight alongside them, eventually, you're going to talk, and try and become friends with them, if for no other reason then because you always seem to be fighting by their side.

But, using that line of thinking, that's where I think they should use two styles of supports. Battle Support, sort of like what Radiant Dawn had, and Base Support, like what Awakening, Fates, and Path of Radiance used.

Battle support would apply only for battle, so that two characters who work well together in combat can support each other in combat, and doesn't really give us much of a clue about what they're like and is really only there to help power-up the units while on the field.

Base Support would give us the excellent character development and conversations we've come to love from previous Fire Emblem installments. Plus, if they happen to have some effects in battle, all the better.

Don't know if anyone else thinks that'd be a good idea though.

Awakening kinda already does this, but not the extent you're probably thinking of. If two units are paired together on a sparkly tile, they exchange their recycled lines with each other whether they make sense or not. Imagine if that feature was taken further and every character had something unique to say to every character they were paired with.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Giga Man

[NeedTheFriction]

I'm 100% with you, dude. I've been saying this for a while. I started with Awakening, and while I love it to death, I started seeing its flaws in supports when I played Blazing Sword. To be honest, supports are what I live for in a Fire Emblem game. I ADORE character interaction, which is why... Eh, if you're interested, just read this big post I made last month that basically covers this topic: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=57900&page=15#entry4074677

Also, I dunno how old the characters are, but Lissa is Donnel's best marriable option to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TISl21xena8&index=192&list=PLn3Wm-3X3v7BeGE9LRc0h6qvyGUXz-DJL

Nowi is actually the only female Tharja supports, which is surprising to me, but all that is beside the point. I do think that her support with Gregor was meaningful for the sake of Gregor's backstory, but they didn't need an S rank. Just because they're the opposite sex doesn't mean they should get married, which is a point I brought up in the big post I referenced above.

thanks bro, ill check out your post. also im loving the profile pic ^w^

Edited November 14, 2015 by NeedTheFriction

[Jedi]

Limited supports are a step back in the right direction and would encourage better writing, it wouldn't be instantaneous, but we might get the level of quality we had with Blazing Sword and Path of Radiances supports back eventually (There are some good in Awakening I digress but still)

[Giga Man]

thanks bro, ill check out your post. also im loving the profile pic ^w^

Hehe. To be honest, I don't like Eliwood that much as a character, but when the game showed me that image after I beat it, I smiled the biggest smile I ever smiled. Such a fulfilling experience that game was.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Hehe. To be honest, I don't like Eliwood that much as a character, but when the game showed me that image after I beat it, I smiled the biggest smile I ever smiled. Such a fulfilling experience that game was.

M8. Ninian. Emotional scene. With Eliwood. The Loss. I feel.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[NeonZ]

While limited supports doesn't guarantee better writing, the inverse is true I believe, meaning that you can't have good supports with unlimited options. The fact that everyone needs to support everyone becomes a constraint, not a liberty.

In most cases you have characters being boiled down to such a simple personality that there's no way they can't be combined with anyone else. There's no potential for a conflict or mismatch because it's so vague and shallow that anyone could be friends with anyone. But real people aren't like that. They have depth, and personality, and will simply not match with others all the time. This process leads to abhorrent support writing that is either nonsensical or completely forgettable.

The support system was never about that though. There was never a case where you attempted a C ranking support and then got blocked from further levels due to character incompatibility, or even got any penalties due to supports (in spite of some conversations ending with the characters in conflict before it's solved in the next ranking). The so called "incompatible" characters often just had no supports with each other at all, basically ignoring each other's existence in spite of being part of often fairly small groups. Unless there's some big story event that directly led to conflict, which then could lead to a support conversation too - like Matthew and Jaffar, but in that case they could go all the way up to A rankings too. The conversations we get right now generally still allow characters to show conflict beforehand, it's just the S support itself that's often thrown at the end - sometimes re-contextualizing previous conversations, but sometimes it just comes out of nowhere too. It's not like most C-A ranking support between characters from different genders are romantic centered, they're often pretty neutral until the S ranking. And something like that already existed with the previous system, since there were only C-A rankings and you could get an extra B-C conversation, which meant that any hints at romance were generally left for the A one.

You're also complaining about a character like Tharja has no business having supports with most of the cast - which contradicts your other point - that the characters and their personalities are being designed just for the support system. Now granted, there are design limitations due to that - but it's pretty much just no married characters in the main cast.

I guess the main issue here is how much you valued the writing in previous games. I thought they were flawed by enjoyable, but you seem to obviously value them way above that. Personally, I don't think it'd be worth the cost of limiting the possibilities for character interaction (although S rankings and larger support selection are different matters). Still, I don't think the current S rankings with marriage should be removed unless IS manages to implement another feature that ties gameplay and story elements to the achievement of support rankings by the player.

How can Cordelia still talk about loving Chrom when she's already married someone else? Because the support structure says so.

That seemed to be just an oversight though. Most of the time, in the main game, Cordelia's "loved one" is pretty vague outside of the S support conversations, where generally it's explicitly said that it was Chrom, but now she has left that behind. It's in the DLC conversations that she starts mentioning Chrom and her longing for him even while she might already have an S ranking with someone else. So, the DLC script writers just overlooked what the main game's script did.

Edited November 14, 2015 by NeonZ

[Vitezen]

The support system was never about that though. There was never a case where you attempted a C ranking support and then got blocked from further levels due to character incompatibility, or even got any penalties due to supports (in spite of some conversations ending with the characters in conflict before it's solved in the next ranking). The so called "incompatible" characters often just had no supports with each other at all, basically ignoring each other's existence in spite of being part of often fairly small groups. Unless there's some big story event that directly led to conflict, which then could lead to a support conversation too - like Matthew and Jaffar, but in that case they could go all the way up to A rankings too. The conversations we get right now generally still allow characters to show conflict beforehand, it's just the S support itself that's often thrown at the end - sometimes re-contextualizing previous conversations, but sometimes it just comes out of nowhere too. It's not like most C-A ranking support between characters from different genders are romantic centered, they're often pretty neutral until the S ranking. And something like that already existed with the previous system, since there were only C-A rankings and you could get an extra B-C conversation, which meant that any hints at romance were generally left for the A one.

You're also complaining about a character like Tharja has no business having supports with most of the cast - which contradicts your other point - that the characters and their personalities are being designed just for the support system. Now granted, there are design limitations due to that - but it's pretty much just no married characters in the main cast.

I guess the main issue here is how much you valued the writing in previous games. I thought they were flawed by enjoyable, but you seem to obviously value them way above that. Personally, I don't think it'd be worth the cost of limiting the possibilities for character interaction (although S rankings and larger support selection are different matters). Still, I don't think the current S rankings with marriage should be removed unless IS manages to implement another feature that ties gameplay and story elements to the achievement of support rankings by the player.

That seemed to be just an oversight though. Most of the time, in the main game, Cordelia's "loved one" is pretty vague outside of the S support conversations, where generally it's explicitly said that it was Chrom, but now she has left that behind. It's in the DLC conversations that she starts mentioning Chrom and her longing for him even while she might already have an S ranking with someone else. So, the DLC script writers just overlooked what the main game's script did.

My mistake, what I mean to saw was in agreement with you. It's true, if Tharja were in a previous FE game, she probably wouldn't have had any supports at all lol. Really I'm surprised she's even in Chrom's group in the first place. Tharja being unlikeable has nothing to do with the support system. But Tharja being able to romance everyone while still being obnoxious does.

Another example that I didn't bring up before was Lon'qu. So many of his conversations are just a rehash of him answering "why do girls freak you out?" In a game with limited supports, it would be relegated to his sole A/S support. He'd finally spill it, get over it, and it's done. But because everyone has to support everyone, and people are downgraded down from developed personalities to their one trait, he's got to retrace the same conversation multiple times because that's all the writers could think of for the two characters to talk about. Characters can't grow in an unlimited support system because they still need those character flaws to be solved by their next support partner too.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

here's my favorite example of the multi support chains, you can take, cordelia, and shoot her straight to S rank with...lets say Kellam, which never mentions chrom, then have her support, Frederik or one of the several other options that has chrom in it, and she'll talk about "woe is me i can't be with chrom" but now she's married so it makes this look really bad.

hell i got Vaike/Tharja's C support which has her swooning over Robin, who in my file was married to sumia and by this point tharja herself was married to Lon'qu, so this made her look even worse then the support normally would've.

EDIT: nevermind in afew of vaike's supports he's talking about picking up chicks or hitting on other females, even with a wife before the convo can happen on your file, which also happen to me.

does anyone else see the issue?

Edited November 14, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

here's my favorite example of the multi support chains, you can take, cordelia, and shoot her straight to S rank with...lets say Kellam, which never mentions chrom, then have her support, Frederik or one of the several other options that has chrom in it, and she'll talk about "woe is me i can't be with chrom" but now she's married so it makes this look really bad.

hell i got Vaike/Tharja's C support which has her swooning over Robin, who in my file was married to sumia and by this point tharja herself was married to Lon'qu, so this made her look even worse then the support normally would've.

EDIT: nevermind in afew of vaike's supports he's talking about picking up chicks or hitting on other females, even with a wife before the convo can happen on your file, which also happen to me.

does anyone else see the issue?

Crap, I sure do. Not to mention that some of those A supports are already on the verge of marriage, it looks like flirting/cheating. Like, immagine getting Gregor/Cordelia A when both are already married... that support implies Gregor fell for Cordelia. Or on Cordelia's case, it implies she is still trying to flirt with Chrom.

Limited supports, IMO, should also come back for the number of supports a character can have in a playthrough. I know some people go "B-but then I can't read them all in one playthrough!" but it really creates these unfortunate implications that sometimes can really ruin a character.

[NekoKnight]

Crap, I sure do. Not to mention that some of those A supports are already on the verge of marriage, it looks like flirting/cheating. Like, immagine getting Gregor/Cordelia A when both are already married... that support implies Gregor fell for Cordelia. Or on Cordelia's case, it implies she is still trying to flirt with Chrom.

Limited supports, IMO, should also come back for the number of supports a character can have in a playthrough. I know some people go "B-but then I can't read them all in one playthrough!" but it really creates these unfortunate implications that sometimes can really ruin a character.

While you can avoid some conflicting supports with this method, you have a lot more supports that DON'T conflict but are locked out for a single playthrough. There is a lot of potential character exploration that doesn't need to be mutually exclusive of each other.

[Leona]

Limited supports, IMO, should also come back for the number of supports a character can have in a playthrough. I know some people go "B-but then I can't read them all in one playthrough!" but it really creates these unfortunate implications that sometimes can really ruin a character.

This was still a problem in Awakening. It just was way less annoying because the supports were way less interesting.

[RPGatWill]

I don't know. There's not really an easy solution to this.

Admittedly yes, several of Awakening's conversations do end up rehashing each other. I felt like having unlimited supports was a blessing and a curse. After all, I could get all the C-A(S) supports and find out my favorites in one long grind session for each character, but at the same time those character's problems within those supports was generally the same.

I began to wonder why I felt like limited supports were better. So I went back to play Fire Emblem and Sacred Stones to find out why. I was genuinely surprised by what I discovered.

There really isn't a difference between Awakening's supports and the supports of old. In grinding Supports, I found many characters in 7 and 8 retread the same character traits as it is. Sure, there are a few unique ones, but approximately half or more of Lyn's potential supports are about how she misses the plains (Florina, Kent, Rath). Hector's supports are about how he's a big unsociable lug (Lyn, Florina, Farina, Matthew), Eliwood's are all about how pure and innocent his is and how that attracted said person to him (Marcus, Ninian, Fiora). The difference is, there just weren't as many.

So, do I want them to cut out the support system to limited numbers like the old ones. I don't think I want it to go that far. Admittedly, I don't want people to romance/support EVERYONE EVAR, but I also recall 7 and 8 having some dynamics I wish I could have seen (Lyn/Guy and Lyn/Karel and Lyn/Karla being examples off the top of my head).

I think, though it's likely not going to happen, the first step should be the cut of the children characters in the next game. This would allow characters to stop at A, go to S, have a separate increase for love supports if those are separated from friend supports, improve the S supports in general so they aren't immediate marriage proposals. Question is, how would they do this?

I think a remake of 7 or 8 would give them that opportunity. I don't believe it's likely to happen, but that way they could test the water on seeing if fans will stick around if the child mechanic is removed so they can narrow the support field in the next iteration by a bit.

By the way, gems in awakening for the supports? Maribelle/Gaius, Gregor/Tharja, Lon'Qu/Tharja, Lon'Qu/Cherche, Gregor/Cherche are probably my favorites.

[NeedTheFriction]

I don't know. There's not really an easy solution to this.

Admittedly yes, several of Awakening's conversations do end up rehashing each other. I felt like having unlimited supports was a blessing and a curse. After all, I could get all the C-A(S) supports and find out my favorites in one long grind session for each character, but at the same time those character's problems within those supports was generally the same.

I began to wonder why I felt like limited supports were better. So I went back to play Fire Emblem and Sacred Stones to find out why. I was genuinely surprised by what I discovered.

There really isn't a difference between Awakening's supports and the supports of old. In grinding Supports, I found many characters in 7 and 8 retread the same character traits as it is. Sure, there are a few unique ones, but approximately half or more of Lyn's potential supports are about how she misses the plains (Florina, Kent, Rath). Hector's supports are about how he's a big unsociable lug (Lyn, Florina, Farina, Matthew), Eliwood's are all about how pure and innocent his is and how that attracted said person to him (Marcus, Ninian, Fiora). The difference is, there just weren't as many.

So, do I want them to cut out the support system to limited numbers like the old ones. I don't think I want it to go that far. Admittedly, I don't want people to romance/support EVERYONE EVAR, but I also recall 7 and 8 having some dynamics I wish I could have seen (Lyn/Guy and Lyn/Karel and Lyn/Karla being examples off the top of my head).

I think, though it's likely not going to happen, the first step should be the cut of the children characters in the next game. This would allow characters to stop at A, go to S, have a separate increase for love supports if those are separated from friend supports, improve the S supports in general so they aren't immediate marriage proposals. Question is, how would they do this?

I think a remake of 7 or 8 would give them that opportunity. I don't believe it's likely to happen, but that way they could test the water on seeing if fans will stick around if the child mechanic is removed so they can narrow the support field in the next iteration by a bit.

By the way, gems in awakening for the supports? Maribelle/Gaius, Gregor/Tharja, Lon'Qu/Tharja, Lon'Qu/Cherche, Gregor/Cherche are probably my favorites.

i understand what you are saying and its quite possible the quality of supports has remained consistent throughout the series. maybe the only reason im so peeved by the quality isnt a matter of quality at all, rather awakening just made it so accessible that it made the flaws more noticeable. if that is the case less support options wouldn't affect quality directly but it would still make a difference on how we see them because they arnt overused. truthfully i have wanted to see supports between certain characters that couldnt in past games but id rather have too little supports because too many seems to dilute the quality indirectly. im glad this is being discussed, its nice to know im not the only one putting so much thought into this mechanic.