Smash Brothers "Representation" Data

[Zera]

You are the director of Smash Bros. You must choose -

1. Include a bunch of enemies from Kid Icarus Uprising since they're easy to port. Anyone who hasn't played Uprising probably won't care, since most of them are weird enough that they wouldn't be out of place if they were Smash exclusive.

2. Have less content.

It's an obvious decision, if you ask me. I wouldn't say there's any bias involved. Smash 4 is an objectively better game for having more Kid Icarus content.

[Ema Skye]

I wouldn't even call it bias. It's smart programming.

Smash Run is slanted (not biased) towards Uprising because it makes sense from a development standpoint to use its models. If Sakurai had made "Kirby's Adventure Through the Fluffy Rainbow Gates of Hell" instead of Uprising, we would have gotten enemies from that game instead and the outcry would be that he's biased towards Kirby. Smash Run (where the Kid Icarus bias comes from predominantly) is a small portion of the game, and so being able to speed up development time by porting models means they can focus on other stuff.

[Jedi]

Smash Run yes that was a smart choice, it doesn't excuse all the items, stages and other things it got over other franchises though.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Jedi

[solrocknroll]

Smash Run yes that was a smart choice, it doesn't excuse all the items, stages and other things it got over other franchises though ^^.

I'll grant you the items. KI did deserve at least one item and assist, but five items may be a lot. Although Sakurai did indeed say he made some Uprising stuff with Smash in mind.

The stages are fine though. There's a new stage on both versions and a returning stage on the Wii U version. If you notice, all four veteran series with newcomers: Mario, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and Kid Icarus, got stages on both versions. The stages are fine.

The only other thing is the Guidances. It seems that they needed a replacement for Codecs, and I think it's obvious that Guidances were the most suitable thing they could have chosen.

As for Palutena and Dark Pit, DP is a last minute clone probably made in minutes, and Palutena was very requested everywhere. Granted, not to Mewtwo/Mega Man levels, but requested all the same.

It is funny though that everyone wanted Palutena until the other KI stuff showed up, and then the internet hated her.

[eclipse]

Why not have the Star Fox crew chat it up like in Melee?

. . .okay, maybe I'm a wee bit biased because I really liked the chats in Melee/Brawl, but wasn't fully sold on them in this game.

[solrocknroll]

Why not have the Star Fox crew chat it up like in Melee?. . .okay, maybe I'm a wee bit biased because I really liked the chats in Melee/Brawl, but wasn't fully sold on them in this game.

I'm not quite sure as to what even was the deal with OGA, but I do doubt that there's any time to do a Smash Taunt in the first place due to how hideously manic it is.

The catch is that the Lylat Cruise ones still exist for Wii U minus Wolf's, and Corneria has the Melee ones in the 3DS version

and besides Pit, Palutena and Viridi are perfection and their talks are great even if Ali Hillis didn't reprise her role *tears*

[Ema Skye]

Smash Run yes that was a smart choice, it doesn't excuse all the items, stages and other things it got over other franchises though.

I'm honestly willing to bet the items fall under the same category. Reusing the model for the items saves time, especially when you think that they need to essentially remake it for the different versions. With how many items the game has, it's, again, a smart time saving thing.

3 stages is honestly not a lot. It got 1 stage on the 3DS (about 2% of the stages), tying with virtually every other franchise and beating only Wii Fit and Gyromite (only 5 universes have more than 1 stage; 4 if you don't include DLC). It fares better on the Wii U version, with 2 of the 54 stages (about 4% of the stages) but I don't think that really counts as biased considering we (as in, most Smash fans in existence) were generally expecting two KI stages. including Skyworld's return.

[solrocknroll]

yeah I'd like to bring up something from earlier

why does gyromite constantly get so screwed over

I mean

were Miiverse/Super Mario Maker stages so important that a Gyromite stage couldn't have happened in their place

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

I personally am alright with whathever content there is in Smash Run, it's understandable for Sora to have ported so many Uprising enemies, but one of my points is that, in the things that matter more (stages, characters, items, assists), Uprising gets a lot of love and care, while other franchises either get a bone or get forgotten (unless their name is not Mario, Pokèmon or Kirby).

Palutena got so much care into her-- she might be low tier, but what other character has that many different specials? When specials were announced, I thought everyone got the Palutena treatment, but discovering she was the only one to get it made me think about it.

Jedi said it the best IMO:

I like all 3 Kid Icarus games and consider myself a fan, but it has much more content than it should in Smash 4, I'm not gonna complain because I do enjoy the series, it just doesn't really stand out as much in terms of Nintendo as a whole. Like Uprising in particular is really great, but it alone shouldn't have gotten Kid Icarus all it got in smash, but you know, Sakurai wills it and theres nothing to really say about that, other than -shrug-.

I understand why people are upset with it.

I have nothing against Kid Icarus (I love the first NES game), but isn't it weird a niche series got so much attention? Why wouldn't this be a sign of bias?
It also matches his desire to work on his characters, something he decided to not do because he doesn't like working on sequels.

But the fact is-- you can't make everyone happy; and I think Sakurai understood this. He very probably already knows the majority of Smash fans will not care about who deserves what and what series deserve more stuff etc, he knows the majority of Smash fans or possible Smash buyers are not Nintendo nerds, they will not scream and shout at the sight of a Ridley/K. Rool/Samurai Goroh/Impa reveal trailer, therefore I can see why he gives so much attention to characters he loves but cannot work on anymore.

However, even if I can try to understand why DK is still stuck at 2 reps despite being an icon, a top seller, etc, or why Samus got such out of character treatment with Zero Suit ("You're mine"... really?? When Samus should be a mute protagonist first and foremost, but I digress, this is my opinion), or why Star Fox got the shaft so badly even with the upcoming SFZero; even if I can try to understand all these decisions, I still don't think they are good because this game should glorify all of Nintendo.

If every character (and stage) got a treatment as faithful, well done as the Uprising characters, Shulk, Duck Hunt or the third parties, I would be so happy, because it would truly feel like how a crossover should feel.

You might say "Sakurai/Sora don't know the other characters and series that well!", but as far as I know nobody from SUMO Digital worked on the original games most of the characters from the SEGA All Stars Racing come from. Yet that series is amazing, it's filled with rich detail and every character feels like they should.
The day Smash gets a (not made with reused assets) stage as beautiful, charming and faithful as Rogue's Landing will be a good day. I guess Magicant counts as this, so I could also say that I await the day every stage feels like Magicant and every character feels like Shulk or Bayonetta.

Would that be too much work...? I wonder.

This is all nitpicking, of course, and as I said most Smash players don't care about this (I'm not saying this in a negative way at all, I swear), therefore I don't think all of this should be a priority (gameplay comes first, single player experience including ._. ). In fact, it's probably why this is not a priority that so many franchises are underrepresented and/or unfaithful to the source material.

[Jedi]

However, even if I can try to understand why DK is still stuck at 2 reps despite being an icon, a top seller, etc, or why Samus got such out of character treatment with Zero Suit ("You're mine"... really?? When Samus should be a mute protagonist first and foremost, but I digress, this is my opinion), or why Star Fox got the shaft so badly even with the upcoming SFZero; even if I can try to understand all these decisions, I still don't think they are good because this game should glorify all of Nintendo.

To be fair, she is a bounty hunter so such a line isn't so OOC, but in general almost every character in smash is OOC, even Shulk who you said got special attention.

But I don't think this is anything to complain about personally, people overall enjoy how cheesy the characters are, 64 and Melee themselves have this issue too.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Jedi

[Jedi]

I'm honestly willing to bet the items fall under the same category. Reusing the model for the items saves time, especially when you think that they need to essentially remake it for the different versions. With how many items the game has, it's, again, a smart time saving thing.

3 stages is honestly not a lot. It got 1 stage on the 3DS (about 2% of the stages), tying with virtually every other franchise and beating only Wii Fit and Gyromite (only 5 universes have more than 1 stage; 4 if you don't include DLC). It fares better on the Wii U version, with 2 of the 54 stages (about 4% of the stages) but I don't think that really counts as biased considering we (as in, most Smash fans in existence) were generally expecting two KI stages. including Skyworld's return.

When you put it that way, I do think we got alot less than "bias" would usually, but I think its still there.

[Ema Skye]

It might be there, but I'm convinced it's more of a coincidence than anything else.

Uprising happened at the right time for it to have so much stuff. If Sakurai made Awakening, we probably would have gotten more FE stuff.

[Jedi]

I will agree with that.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

@Jedi:

Yeah, one thing I never really liked about Smash (all of them) is how some characters are OOC. I am a huge F-Zero fan and one of the probably-less-than-twenty people in this world that care about F-Zero' story and characters, therefore even if I sort of like Smash's Falcon (boisterous, all action, no thinking), I can't say that I wouldn't prefer a portrayal closer to how Falcon acted in GX (bold, brave, heroic, lone wolf).

I think this for me as been especially bad when I saw Falcon kill innocent Pikmin all for the sake of show off... OTL I think I facepalmed internally when I first saw it haha.

And when I was a wee child I remember thinking "Link would never do that!" when he combed his hair narcissistically in Melee XD

Ahh, nitpicking, nitpicking, lol. But still, these are not real complaints, more like pet peeves. I know people like this stuff a lot so I won't complain any further.

And, 100% honest personal opinion here:

I'd rather have Seductive Samus from Smash than the Samus in Other M, so maybe in the end it's not as bad as it could've been.

Shulk however never felt OOC for me though, maybe people are too used to his "memetic" image he has on the internet thanks to Smash.

I have yet to finish Xenoblade, but I'm near the end game (I will not say a thing because spoiling this game is a disgrace, since it does twists and narration so well) and I'm pretty sure I know how Shulk is.

Now, if he were as pessimistic as he can be in his own game, I'm not sure how well he'd fight, but I think I see Shulk's fighting spirit and the attitude he has in battle, in Smash Bros. All of the things he says are legit, plus "Shulk time!" is a localization thing, and it's a cute reference to Reyn time.

There's also to say that Shulk is from a nearly 100 hours long game and cramming his whole character in Smash would be... impossible.

[Jedi]

Maybe I'm just more used to him being fierce than meme worthy in fights

Or i'm just being werid.

[Zera]

CrimeanRoyalKnight, have you ever considered that Palutena having unique custom specials is the entire gimmick of her character? Without them, she would have nothing to stand out other than her smash attacks. And then the KI fans would be upset.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Zera

[solrocknroll]

Maybe I'm just more used to him being fierce than meme worthy in fights

Or i'm just being werid.

As the biggest Xenoblade fan on this site, I'll say that Shulk isn 't very accurate to himself, but the Reyn injected into him is adorable and I'm just happy he's in the game. would have preferred Eryth Sea to Gaur Plains but w/e

also my favorite songs are area themes so they wouldn't really work

Hey CrimeanRoyalKnight, have you ever considered that Palutena having unique custom specials is the entire gimmick of her character? Without them, she would have nothing to stand out other than her smash attacks.

palutena's standard specials are atrocious so I'm assuming that this had to have happened

[Jedi]

CrimeanRoyalKnight, have you ever considered that Palutena having unique custom specials is the entire gimmick of her character? Without them, she would have nothing to stand out other than her smash attacks. And then the KI fans would be upset.

Then why didn't Megaman get the same treatment? You know, the character actually known for his unique specials.

[solrocknroll]

Then why didn't Megaman get the same treatment? You know, the character actually known for his unique specials.

He... did? Basically?

Mega Man's specials do exactly what they're suppose to. Mega Man's specials aren't as diverse as Palutena's, but when all of them are accurate, it doesn't really matter.

[Jedi]

Since it was asked i'll put the stage division for Smash 4 here. In terms of representation, Counting the copies separate now

3DS Stages

Super Mario Bros: 7

Yoshi: 1

Donkey Kong: 1

The Legend of Zelda: 3

Metroid: 1

Kirby: 2

Starfox: 1

Pokemon: 2

F-Zero: 1

Mother: 1

Fire Emblem: 1

Game & Watch: 1

Kid Icarus: 1

Wario: 1

Pikmin: 1

Animal Crossing: 1

Punch Out!: 1

Xenoblade Chronicles: 1

Duck Hunt: 1

Sonic The Hedgehog: 1

Megaman: 1

Pac-Man: 1

Street Fighter: 1

Final Fantasy: 1

Bayonetta: 1

Balloon Fight: 1

Nintendogs: 1

Find Mii: 1

Tomodachi Life: 1

DS Software: 1

Smash Originals: 2

Wii U Stages

Super Mario Bros: 8

Yoshi: 2

Donkey Kong: 3

The Legend of Zelda: 5

Metroid: 2

Kirby: 3

Starfox: 2

Pokemon: 2

F-Zero: 1

Mother: 1

Fire Emblem: 2

Game & Watch: 1

Kid Icarus: 2

Wario: 1

Pikmin: 1

Animal Crossing: 2

Punch Out!: 1

Wii Fit: 1

Xenoblade Chronicles: 1

Duck Hunt: 1

Sonic The Hedgehog: 1

Megaman: 1

Pac-Man: 1

Street Fighter: 1

Final Fantasy: 1

Bayonetta: 1

Wrecking Crew: 1

Pilotwings: 1

Wii Sports: 1

Miiverse: 1

Smash Originals: 2

[Shin]

The numbers seem fairly consistent across versions, even when taking exclusives into account.

[Jedi]

Yeah its around the same counts surprisingly.

[HK Motendra]

Call me crazy Jedi, but from the Smash-Miiverse fansite, I actually took the time to count the overall content for every series (which includes trophies, Music, Smash Run enemies and the like). Do keep in mind that I counted totals from both versions, with the only thing omitted being masterpieces. There are as follows:

[spoiler=Smash Bros Wii U/3DS Totals]

Super Mario Bros: 268

Donkey Kong: 65

Legend of Zelda: 120

Metroid: 63

Kirby: 107

Yoshi: 28

Starfox: 53

Pokemon: 130. 170, if pokeball pokemon are included

F-Zero: 39

Earthbound/Mother: 38

Fire Emblem: 64

Game&Watch: 14

Kid Icarus: 89

Wario: 23

Pikmin: 41

ROBOT: 7

Animal Crossing: 64

Punch Out: 21

Wii Fit: 21

Xenoblade: 29

Duck Hunt: 11

Sonic the Hedgehog: 26

Megaman: 34

Pac Man: 24

Street Fighter: 12

Final Fantasy: 6 (this was my own conjecture, since they seem to have forgotten about Cloud's trophies)

Bayonetta: 17

I'll get to the Smash Originals eventually[/size][/size]

Edited December 29, 2015 by Noburu

[Zera]

@Noburu You didn't even include Sin and Punishment. I am disappointed.

[Ema Skye]

@Noburu You didn't even include Sin and Punishment. I am disappointed.

Because Sin and Punishment has no characters in Smash 4.

If he's going to include one minor franchise, he'd have to include them all. And what's the point considering the bulk would be less than 5?