peener weener Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The problem is that some words, like this one, are basically stripped of all meaning, because people just throw it around for any protagonist they dislike. I dunno, I didn't like this movie, and didn't think Rey was a very well developed character, but it's pretty laughable how quick people are to throw the mary sue term around. "A Mary Sue...is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities. Often but not necessarily this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment." from wikipedia rey lives on a desert planet, alone, and barely scrapes by as a scavenger, but somehow speaks droid, can pilot the millennium falcon, can fix it, has infinite tech knowledge, is a great fighter, excels at the use of the force immediately, and defeats a powerful sith the first time she picks up a light saber i don't know what definition of mary sue you've created in your head but rey fits the definition of mary sue literally everyone else uses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant head Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) yes, i'm sure literally everyone (lmao) just uses wikipedia as the gospel. jesus christ. anyway i'm done here, no interest in defending a character i didn't care for. Edited December 30, 2015 by Radiant head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Were you expecting a formal dictionary definition or study for an informal term such as 'Mary Sue'? Edited December 30, 2015 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solrocknroll Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 "A Mary Sue...is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities. Often but not necessarily this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment." from wikipedia rey lives on a desert planet, alone, and barely scrapes by as a scavenger, but somehow speaks droid, can pilot the millennium falcon, can fix it, has infinite tech knowledge, is a great fighter, excels at the use of the force immediately, and defeats a powerful sith the first time she picks up a light saber i don't know what definition of mary sue you've created in your head but rey fits the definition of mary sue literally everyone else uses not really disagreeing except for "powerful sith" lol Other than that, Rey is indeed weirdly gifted, but I don't know what people were really expecting. As a whole, I feel that the speaking Droid thing was really the only completely weird thing. Some people are just more Force-adept than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peener weener Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) yes, i'm sure literally everyone (lmao) just uses wikipedia as the gospel. jesus christ. anyway i'm done here, no interest in defending a character i didn't care for. hold on let me pull up a scientific source for the definition of mary sue (lmao). i wasn't trying to hold wikipedia's word as final, but it was useful in defining mary sue in the perspective of, seemingly, everyone that isn't you what is a mary sue? i'm not asking you to defend rey. but apparently we're all still wrong for reasons you haven't explained past being passive-aggressive. educate me, please Edited December 30, 2015 by fuccboi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 we are uncouth, uneducated wiki-using plebs but yeah that's the definition i go by since i do not spend copious amounts of my time on fanfiction.net, and most of the tropes can be applied to her anyway outside of the self-insert/wish fulfillment part. i do not think using the term in this case takes away from it's meaning or whatever; it conveys the problem with her development (or lack thereof) fairly well. i don't think she's completely irredeemable yet, though, and she doesn't actually grate on my nerves so insisting we're just tossing the term around because we don't like her is kind of... what. the criticism has been fair imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The lack of a coherent system behind the Force is what allows every SW writer to pull things out of their ass when designing characters, similar to HP. The hero will always win, but you don't have to make it too obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) The problem is that some words, like this one, are basically stripped of all meaning, because people just throw it around for any protagonist they dislike. I dunno, I didn't like this movie, and didn't think Rey was a very well developed character, but it's pretty laughable how quick people are to throw the mary sue term around. That's true. Upon first hearing the term Mary Sue my research immediately led me to the fact that is basically has no solid meaning. However I don't think it should be just localized to a self insert and nothing more when it clearly means something more. Edited December 30, 2015 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Regardless of whether or not Rey is a Mary-Sue, there's no doubt she's a weak character and there's no doubt that she has some Sue qualities that don't help. Other points: I also think that after IV and VI, the reveal and then speedy destruction of the Starkiller Base was very underwhelming. When the first Death Star is destroyed, it's cool. When the second Death Star is destroyed, it's also cool. But I found it hard to care about the fate of Starkiller base. Why is it possible for someone to just jump in the Millennium Falcon and fly it away? Shouldn't stealing a ship like that be slightly more difficult? Why is there so little security? Quipping levels are elevated in this instalment, not quite as high as an MCU movie but still dangerous. I think that while this movie is not amazing, it's still good and there's potential for a great VIII on the level of V. IV, which this movie aped, was not that strong either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 The problem is that some words, like this one, are basically stripped of all meaning, because people just throw it around for any protagonist they dislike. I dunno, I didn't like this movie, and didn't think Rey was a very well developed character, but it's pretty laughable how quick people are to throw the mary sue term around. She embodies most of the qualities that are associated with the term. As its use has grown, so has its scope. It essentially refers to poorly-written characters, in the context of overly high abilities and character interactions. I don't think at this point the word is used to describe characters that are self-inserts, but rather ones which certainly look as though they could be. Rey is quite amazing at everything she does; she is an excellent shot, a terrific fighter, a tech-guru, a pilot, seemingly the most adept beginning Force user of all time, and is well-liked by all characters encountered in the film. The first few are annoying, but can be handwaved. The last rather ruined the film for me. Han offers her a job on his ship and Finn appears to have fallen in love after what appears to be less than a single day of being around her. Leia trusted her with the all-important job of finding Luke to go alone, and I don't think she even talked with her beforehand. The number of plot points that would have to be devoted to explaining the curiousness of her condition is far too unusual to view the character in a positive light to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 It's not out of the ordinary if besides a scavenger she's a tinkerer, but we're never shown anything she's built herself. Luke's piloting background is also poorly explained, but we at least "know" he's been to some sort of flight school or something like that since a couple Rebels recognize him as a pilot they've been familiar with and could use. Her understanding droid language I attributed to "characters in Star Wars always understand this droid gibberish and it doesn't really matter". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 It's out of the ordinary because it's unexplained, without even an offhand explanation. She understands chemistry and poisonous gases, she knows the Millenium Falcon better than Han, and she can pilot well enough to outmaneuver a TIE-Fighter. And her understanding droid language --and Wookie-- is completely unusual. Most characters do not understand astromech, or Wookie. Luke didn't understand R2 for most of the series, and even when he did it was little better than understanding what sounded like yes and no. Her abilities are like a film and a half ahead of where they should be. She already knows everything, it's insane. She can fight, she can fix, she can pilot, she can shoot, she can hide, she can interpret... There's nothing in this film that she needs someone else to do because they are better than her. I didn't notice it as readily the first time watching it, but the second time around it's apparent that she adapts to anything and everything nearly instantaneously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Garon Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 It was sort of ridiculous how easily Rey used force persuasion to escape after being captured. Finn and Han Solo went to rescue her and blow up the enemy base, but she escaped before they could rescue her. What the hell? Plus, after Poe Cameron crashed the TIE Fighter, it was never explained what happened to him. He was assumed dead, but it was never explained how he survived. To me, It kind of makes later deaths feel like they mean less when writers bring back a supposedly dead character back like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 It's out of the ordinary because it's unexplained, without even an offhand explanation. She understands chemistry and poisonous gases, she knows the Millenium Falcon better than Han, and she can pilot well enough to outmaneuver a TIE-Fighter. And her understanding droid language --and Wookie-- is completely unusual. Most characters do not understand astromech, or Wookie. Luke didn't understand R2 for most of the series, and even when he did it was little better than understanding what sounded like yes and no. I'll take a hinch here but it seems like Rey was supposed to be some sort of "canvas" to the fan/viewer. That's why she (and Finn) knew so much about how things worked. But it was also lame because she's unrealistically strong. Luke was a wuss until RotJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSbardock84 Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Eh this movie wasn't very good imo. I realize that Ben Solo wasn't a completely trained sith but there's no way that she would've been able to fight that well against him or use the force the way she did. At first I thought Fin was going to be somewhat cool but after fighting Ben he turned out to be a total loser. The EU is much better than this, sure the next two movies will be disappointing. But I hope I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Meh, I don't think Rey is as good of a fighter as people think- Kylo Ren was wounded multiple times and quite possibly is not that powerful overall(not that far removed from being an apprentice). Yes, he supposedly took out all of Luke's other apprentices but considering we don't know how that happened there could have been a large surprise factor there. Even Finn managed to hit Kylo Ren and he's presumably not Force sensitive at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I agree. Being shot in the rips with what amounts to a grenade launcher is certainly going to dampen one's killing abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solkia Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Watching Star Wars without Lucas's jank editing and writing was both offputting and refreshing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I got to say, this is probably the most boring Star Wars movie I've seen in my life. Sure, the prequels were the retarded children of Satan's cock but at least there was stuff to make fun of. Here, we have a episode IV rehash that's so shameless that I'm honestly baffled how it gets away with it. The whole Resistance vs First Order thing makes no sense. Why is the First Order so powerful when it's from the remnants of the people who lost the war. How was it able to get so powerful relatively quickly? If the Resistance is backed by the Republic, then it shouldn't be a resistance, the First Order would technically be the resistance. In fact, since the Republic were the victors, shouldn't they be more powerful than the First Order? None of this makes much sense and they don't bother to explain anything. Kylo Ren is such a terrible villain. Unmasked, he looks like the guy in high school who'd get his head stuck in the toilet. Not to mention he's not intimidating in the slightest; he throws temper tantrums like a child, he fucks up constantly, Rey is able to read his mind like 5 minutes after she awakens her force powers, and he gets his ass handed to him by a yokel girl. I know he was shot but he seems remarkably spry for someone that was apparently so fucked up and he didn't even need to do a lightsaber duel, he could have just used the force to crush Finn and Rey under some trees or something. You know you're bad at this villain thing when even stormtroopers don't take you seriously. Maybe that was the point, but he's pretty much the main antagonist of the movie, and an antagonist needs to be intimidating. Otherwise, there's no threat, no tension, no stakes. Darth Vader had less of a backstory when Episode IV was made but he was extremely threatening and when he was pissed, he was fucking cold. In contrast, Kylo Rey is barely more competent than Cobra Commander. Hux is also terrible too. Grand Moff Tarkin was easily more villainous than Hux and he didn't need to dress up in a silly Nazi uniform or chew the scenery. I'm not sure why some people are so enamored with Rey. I guess she is a "strong female character" but in the most shallow way humanly possible. She is a bit less whiny than Luke but also has no personality whatsoever. She's also way too overpowered; it takes Luke 2 movies to learn how to do Jedi mind tricks while it takes Rey like 10 seconds. She is able to fight on par with Kylo Ren after like 10 minutes when it takes Luke 2 movies not to get owned by Darth Vader. She's able to fly the Millennium Falcon and maintain it as well as Han Solo despite having never flown before. Everyone loves her: Finn is willing to risk his neck to save her, even though 5 minutes prior he was shitting his pants at the thought of the First Order finding him and was about to head to Star Wars Tijuana. Han is so impressed with her he offers her a job as his second mate. Chewy likes her immediately. Leia is willing to trust her to retrieve Luke Skywalker and basically put the fate of the resistance in her hands. She really feels like someone's fanfiction character put into a Star Wars movie ("She's like Luke but better in basically every conceivable way"). Part of the reason why A New Hope worked was because it was paced pretty decently. When Luke gets his hands on C3P0 and R2-D2, the movie actually takes the time to explore him and the setting. We learn about his goals, his relationship with his aunt and uncle, what he's good at, what his opinions on the Rebellion and Empire are, and most importantly, they take the time to develop his friendship with Obi-Wan. In contrast, we learn Rey is a scavenger and waiting for her parents on Jakku. That's pretty much it and it's not long before she runs into Finn and the First Order. Her relationship with Han doesn't feel genuine in comparison, which I think the writers realized since they break the show, don't tell rule and just tell us she sees him as an adoptive father, even though she knew him for like 2 hours and doesn't display any kind of father-daughter relationship with him. Episode VII's idea of characterization and growth seems to be people getting new powers or weapons, which is a really shallow way of doing things. I'm not going to be surprised when people turn on this film because this movie has the exact same reception Episode I did when it came out and it wasn't long until people hated on that movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I'm not sure why some people are so enamored with Rey. I guess she is a "strong female character" but in the most shallow way humanly possible. She is a bit less whiny than Luke but also has no personality whatsoever. She's also way too overpowered; it takes Luke 2 movies to learn how to do Jedi mind tricks while it takes Rey like 10 seconds. She is able to fight on par with Kylo Ren after like 10 minutes when it takes Luke 2 movies not to get owned by Darth Vader. She's able to fly the Millennium Falcon and maintain it as well as Han Solo despite having never flown before. Everyone loves her: Finn is willing to risk his neck to save her, even though 5 minutes prior he was shitting his pants at the thought of the First Order finding him and was about to head to Star Wars Tijuana. Han is so impressed with her he offers her a job as his second mate. Chewy likes her immediately. Leia is willing to trust her to retrieve Luke Skywalker and basically put the fate of the resistance in her hands. She really feels like someone's fanfiction character put into a Star Wars movie ("She's like Luke but better in basically every conceivable way"). People are enamored by Rey? The highest amount of praise I've seen given to her is that she might be better in the next two films. For the most part all I've heard are people who think she's meh or are a Mary Sue. Granted my exposure to fan reaction is basically this thread and people I know personally. I'm sure there probably are people out there enamored by her but I assume they'd be the kind of super fans that would be enamored by a cardboard cutout if it had the Star Wars logo attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Rey had piloted ships before the events of The Force Awakens(why would she say she can pilot a ship to Finn if she hadn't?) Han being a father figure is a stretch, but she does have abandonment issues. Finn's attachment to her can be somewhat explained by Rey being the first person not to see him as a stormtrooper. I think a lot of the issue with Kylo Ren is that people want an 'intimidating badass' like Vader...but it's pretty clear to me anyway that he's not actually the primary antagonist. I actually like that at first you think he's just a Vader ripoff, but then you find out he's trying to emulate Vader and isn't really succeeding at all. Made things more interesting for me than if they just went 'cool badass dude'. I agree that the movie didn't show or explain what the Republic/Resistance/First Order situation was like politically though. I think the actual explanation is that the Republic signed a treaty with the First Order, Leia didn't approve and created the Resistance to oppose the First Order. The Republic does not officially support the Resistance. That was definitely not clear watching the movie though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyn Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) I keep wanting to refer to General Hux as evil!Bill Weasley. There needs to be more Poe Dameron. Other thoughts... Rey is probably Luke's daughter. Kylo Ren has a cool outfit, but the lightsaber tantrums put me off a little. I don't think Finn is Force sensitive. Why hasn't Snoke finished training Kylo Ren yet? It seems like he joined the Dark Side many years ago. Unless he's going to turn back at some point. He did seem conflicted on the bridge with Han Solo. Edited January 10, 2016 by Lyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentacotus Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 Wow I didn't realize this many people had thoughts on the movie. Saw it for the second time on Friday with my father (it was his first viewing) and some things have grown on me. Gotta admit while I kinda felt a little conflicted about Kylo Ren especially when he took off the mask he's kinda grown on me. When he flips out you have no idea what he's gonna do there's an element of suspense there I like it. Is Starkiller base just another death star? Yeah. Is it a plot device? yes. But I've also come to realize that its more of a backdrop to the actual events going on and not so much the focus of the movie. Contrasted with Episode IV and even VI to an extent where it is the sole focus from the get go. That being said I don't really want to see it again. Hopefully if they do make another super weapon it'll be something different (as after the third time I would hope they would figure out that giant immobile planet destroyers don't work out too well) I really like Poe Dameron as a character and hope to see more of him Oscar Isaac just nails it with the character despite having little screen time. In alot of ways I like the First Order better than the Empire. They are menacing as all hell the rally scene with"evil weasley" (Hux) is definitely something to remember. Like alot of others I still have quite a few problems with the Rey vs Kylo fight at the end. If anything its just inconsistent with the rest of the series I mean yes the dude took a shot from Chewie got it. However, I can't help but to compare this fight to Luke vs Vader in Empire where Luke had some training and at best gets a little shoulder shot in and gets his ass handed to him. Maybe it will be explained that Rey is super strong for...reasons (bad idea in my opinion) or if they are clever they will use it as a plot device to play into Kylo Ren's fear of not being as good as Vader and show a massive jump in how strong he becomes after training with Snoke. Perhaps next movie he'll beat Rey to a pulp or even go toe to toe with Luke if not outright kill him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auro Astum Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 The movie had flaws and i feel played it a bit too safe, but it lays the groundwork for episode 8 to be interesting. I enjoyed it more than the prequels and that was honestly what I really wanted out of the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solkia Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 They really need to give Kylo Ren more depth. Throughout the entire movie Kylo Ren was a joke of an antagonist, he needs to be fleshed out because what VII gives us is a really one-note "I'm evil because reasons now watch me throw a tantrum" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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