BrightBow Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I don't know. The confirmed Sheik nerfs sound smart to me. They should make her less dominant in a 1on1 without making her even worse in a battle royal then she already is. Not sure why Corrin would need any nerfs besides his counter, though. Like, stuff like his charged neutral-b can be devastating but by now people should have learned how to deal with it. And while the nerf to his counter is appreciated, it looks to me like it's still pretty dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 I don't know. The confirmed Sheik nerfs sound smart to me. They should make her less dominant in a 1on1 without making her even worse in a battle royal then she already is. The problem is, it allows Bayonetta to continue her dominance, they nerfed pretty much every possible major threat she had outside of like Rosalina, Sonic and a few others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dotty Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Wow, I was not expecting this at all. Kinnnda upset about the unnecessary (non-Counter) Corrin nerfs, and the Sheik stuff seems a bit extreme, but otherwise it looks okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 The problem is, it allows Bayonetta to continue her dominance, they nerfed pretty much every possible major threat she had outside of like Rosalina, Sonic and a few others. But Bayonetta might have gotten more nerfs then what is currently listed on Smashboards, couldn't she? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 But Bayonetta might have gotten more nerfs then what is currently listed on Smashboards, couldn't she? Its possible yeah, but I haven't really heard anything major regarding her, and the current nerfs are being seen as a slap on the wrist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I doubt more nerfs are gonna come in than what we already know, since data dumping has already happened. The Witch Time nerf is important, but that's just nerfing a particularly egregiously terrible aspect of her design, without touching the core of her strength. I would much rather have Sheik — a character whose dominance is largely due to her strong neutral game — as the "best character" than someone like ZSS or Bayonetta or (old) MK, which thrive off of getting one good hit and converting that into a KO. More or less paraphrasing from some guy on /r/smashbros- Sheik has to constantly win the neutral, which is far more mentally taxing for both players than turning a single mistake into a lost stock. Note that Sheik retains much of her strong neutral game for most of the match, but at high% she can do very, very little against a shielding foe, which hurts her very significantly. This all being said, we also haven't had enough time for either the Bayonetta meta or the Bayonetta counterplay meta to advance far enough to really know that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 screw this patch. sheik will still be the best and will only tale lonher to kill with. cloud will now camp more and kill later. zss now has wprse damage output, therefore it takes more effort to kill with her despite her already risky moveset. same thing for meta knight (japan found a new kill confirm already, but dair chains definitely won't work on every character). other characters getting minor kbg changes is barely a buff for them at all, it's like giving a homeless person pennies. a few low tiers got relevant buffs like (slightly) improved movement and landing lag, but that doesn't make up for what happened to the high tiers. basically, a step toward brawl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solrocknroll Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 lol not downloading this they nerfed cloud so it's automatically terrible sure some low tiers got buffed but they aren't cloud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) Theres alot more data coming up, but i'll post it later when its all in one spot. Apologies for the wait. Edited March 16, 2016 by Jedi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 This patch leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for reasons stated above. They nerfed one of Cloud's least offensive tools? They gave freaking Corrin a bunch of unnecessary nerfs while leaving Bayo virtually untouched? Who made these decisions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) This patch leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for reasons stated above. They nerfed one of Cloud's least offensive tools? They gave freaking Corrin a bunch of unnecessary nerfs while leaving Bayo virtually untouched? Who made these decisions? Bayo's been touched, we've discovered Witch Time has been hit quite a bit, along with knockback on a number of her moves. Also Least offensive? People were finding kill confirms into Finishing Touch, to be fair to that nerf in particular among his other ones. Now they have to work a bit harder for those to even have a chance of working. Edited March 16, 2016 by Jedi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 This patch leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for reasons stated above. They nerfed one of Cloud's least offensive tools? They gave freaking Corrin a bunch of unnecessary nerfs while leaving Bayo virtually untouched? Who made these decisions? Hold your horses, buckaroo. At first glance it might seem pretty minor, but the nerfs have a pretty significant impact on medium-level play upwards. It's astounding what little things can do! In other news, Link gets more buffs that probably don't help much! I'd kill to get some frame improvements. I have a feeling Kirby's been sneaking up on everyone, he's gotten a lot in the last few patches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 Hold your horses, buckaroo. At first glance it might seem pretty minor, but the nerfs have a pretty significant impact on medium-level play upwards. It's astounding what little things can do! In other news, Link gets more buffs that probably don't help much! I'd kill to get some frame improvements. I have a feeling Kirby's been sneaking up on everyone, he's gotten a lot in the last few patches. Shin you might be happy about these Charizard buffs. Air speed 0.87 -> 0.92Weight 115 -> 116 Side-B(On ground, On air) Flag change Hitbox -> Special Hitbox Nair Damage 10/7/7/7 -> 12/9/9/9 KBG 90 -> 78 Fair Damage 11 -> 12 Fair(Late) Damage 12 -> 13 Bair Damage 15/13/10/10 -> 16/14/11/11 Sweetspot Size 4.5-> 5 Landing lag Nair 22 -> 20 Fair 31 -> 22 Bair 33 -> 24 Uair 22 -> 20 Dair 35 -> 33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Bayo's been touched, we've discovered Witch Time has been hit quite a bit, along with knockback on a number of her moves. Also Least offensive? People were finding kill confirms into Finishing Touch, to be fair to that nerf in particular among his other ones. Now they have to work a bit harder for those to even have a chance of working. My apologies; I was simply working off of the material in this thread. As for Finishing Touch, I'd read quite a few impressions that FT came out slow enough to be highly situational. I suppose general opinion on it has changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 My apologies; I was simply working off of the material in this thread. As for Finishing Touch, I'd read quite a few impressions that FT came out slow enough to be highly situational. I suppose general opinion on it has changed. I thought the problem with Finishing Touch was that it ruins team matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I'm glad Charizard is getting better, but I feel he still needs some work. I'm considering playing Mewtwo now though because of all the buffs he's been getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Holy shit. Zelda got buffed. I mean LEGIT buffed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 They fixed doubles. That's all I really care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Geargia Gateway Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) I agree with many people stating thoughts here. This balance patch became a 'nerf patch'. Even my beloved Samus's Dash Attack feels worse now. They can fix the hitbox but they reduced hitstun, impact along with KGB change. It doesn't kill anymore. My Samus is racking 150%+ and I still don't have a kill throw. A fast faller when she was fine getting out of Throw combo's and other such. Samus... gameplay wise... didn't change. She can't move up from that bot tier. I think the Sheik nerfs were unnecessary. Hard character is hard to kill with. Why nerf that. Man, ZeRo matches are gonna be a struggle. Some things with Corrin I get, but the speed nerf... for what? To make it hard to follow up from D.Fang?Nerfing Bayo in the wrong place. The Side Special is fine. How about making the Counter window tighter so it'snot spammy. She got a slap on the wrist. Corrin got a beating. Edited March 16, 2016 by Great Geargia Gateway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dotty Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Samus... gameplay wise... didn't change. Samus got quite a few buffs, what are you talking about? Even the Dash Attack is better since you can use it for combos now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 Current change list. Bayonetta Witch Time:Total Frames: 44 -> 49Witch Time effects last shorter amount of timeWitch Time Duration penalty per use: 50F/50F -> 75F/50F (after 100 frames, it recovers 6 frames of length)Heelslide (Button Held Total Frames: 72F -> 77F Bowser Air Speed: 0.98 -> 1Weight: 128 -> 130 Charizard Air Speed 0.87 -> 0.92Weight 115 -> 116Nair:Landing Lag: 22F -> 20FDamage: 10/7/7/7 -> 12/9/9/9KBG: 90 -> 78Fair:Landing Lag: 31 -> 22Damage: 11/12 -> 12/13Bair:Landing Lag: 33F -> 24FDamage: 15/13/10/10 -> 16/14/11/11Sweetspot Size: 4.5-> 5Uair Landing Lag: 22F -> 20FDair Landing Lag: 35F -> 33FFlare Blitz:Explosion KBG: 78 -> 84Second Hitbox: New hitbox added, extending the move's reach to behind Charizard Cloud Uair Early/Late Damage: 13/9.5 -> 12/8.5Forward Smash Third Hit KBG: 119 -> 115Down Smash Second Hit KBG: 96 -> 94Limit Cross Slash KGB: 155 -> 153Finishing Touch (Air):Normal Hit KBG: 417 -> 359Late Hit KBG: 390 -> 335Windbox KBG: 100 -> 86Limit Charge Total Charge Time: Increased by 0.42 secondsFront/Back Roll Intangibility: 4-17F -> 4-15F Corrin Nair Early/Late Damage: 8/6.5 -> 7/5,5Fair Damage: 8.5 -> 7.5Uair Damage: 10 -> 9Dragon Fang Shot Fully Charged Damage: 13 -> 11Counter Surge KB: ReducedWalk Speed: ReducedRun Speed: ReducedFront/Back Roll:Total Frames: 29F -> 30FIntangibility: 4-16F -> 4-14F Duck Hunt Fsmash Final Hit KBG: 123 -> 125Dsmash Final Hit KBG: 153 -> 155Usmash Final Hit KBG: 110 -> 112 Ganondorf Jab:Startup Sweetspot/Sourspot: 8F/7F -> 7F/6FDamage: 7/10/4 -> 8/10/6Dash Attack Total Frames: 41F -> 37FWizard's Foot Ground Damage: 12/12/10 -> 14/12/12 Greninja Dash Attack:Hitbox Startup: 9F -> 7FTotal Duration: 32F -> 30FStanding Grab Startup: 14F -> 11FFair Landing Lag: 18F -> 15FBair Landing Lag: 16F -> 13FBonk: Headbonk angle changed (survival-ability improved) Kirby Dsmash Early Hit KBG: 109 -> 110Fsmash:Early Hit KBG: 100 -> 102Late Hit KBG: 67 -> 69Usmash:Early Hit KBG: 103/103/97 -> 104/104/99Normal Hit KBG 97 -> 98Late Hit KBG: 51 -> 52Hammer Flip:Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Hammer Bash (Custom 1):Air Second Hit Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78Air Second Hit Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78Ground Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78Ground Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78Giant Hammer (Custom 2):Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78 Link Dsmash Second Hit KBG: 57 -> 63Dash Attack:14/13/12 Damage KBG: 78/78/72 -> 85/85/7714/13/12 Damage Angles: 45/60/70 -> 45/50/55 Metaknight Uair:Damage: 5 -> 4Angle: 78 -> 69SDI Multiplier: 1.0 -> 1.5Fair Landing Lag: 20F -> 16F Mewtwo Weight: 72 -> 74Run Speed: Increased (Around Sheik's speed)Upsmash Total Duration: 73F -> 68FNair Multihit Hitbox Size: 2.3 -> 3.0 Pac-Man Bair KBG: 98 -> 100Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 97/100 -> 99/102Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 95/90 -> 97/92Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 84/90 -> 86/92 Palutena Rapid Jab Finisher Damage: 3 -> 3.5Nair Multihit/Final Damage: 1.5/4 -> 1.7/5Fair:Damage: 8 -> 9KBG: 100 -> 92BKB: 30 -> 31 Peach Uair: Hitbox altered (infinite removed) Robin Jab:First Hit BKB: 35 -> 40Second Hit BKB: 30/35 -> 45Nosferatu/Distant Nosferatu Startup: 16F -> 15F Samus Ftilt Sourspot/Sweetspot Down Angle/Sweetspot No Angle/Sweetspot Up Angle Damage: 6/7/8/9 -> 8/9/10/11Dash Attack Total Frames: 37F -> 33FFsmash: Hitbox altered, no longer whiffs up closeDsmash Total Frames: 51F -> 44FNair Front/Back Weak/Back Strong Damage: 8/6/7 -> 10/8/9Standing Grab Total Frames: 75F -> 69FDash Grab Total Frames: 73F -> 67FPivot Grab Total Frames: 89F -> 83F Sheik Dsmash KBG: 155 -> 165Fair:Defensive Hitbox Z Postion: 3.5 -> 2.5Hitbox Z Position: 3.5 -> 2.5Fthrow:Angle: 70 -> 72KBG: 65 -> 79Dthrow:Angle: 80 -> 77KBG: 75 -> 90Needle: Range DecreasedWeight: 84 -> 81 Zelda Ftilt:Hitbox Startup: 12F -> 10FTotal Frames: 39F -> 37FHitbox Z Position: 3 -> 3.5Jab:First & Second Hit Damage: 2.5 -> 3Final Hit Damage: 3 -> 5Final Hit KBG: 130 -> 95Final Hit BKB: 35 -> 40Dsmash Total Frames: 40 -> 37Nair:Multihit damage 2/1 -> 2.5/1.55th Hit Damage: 3 -> 5Uair:Damage: 15 -> 17KBG: 90 -> 84Hitbox Size: 7 -> 8All Grabs: Increased horizontal rangeNayru's Love Intangibility: 5-12F -> 5-15F Zero Suit Samus Uair:Damage: 8 -> 6.5KBG: 110 -> 125Nair:Damage: 10 -> 8KBG: 80 -> 96KB: 40 -> 38Hitbox Size: Altered (approximately 1 unit less for all changes)Bthrow:Damage: 4 -> 6KBG: 25 -> 60KB: 70 -> 72Dthrow:Damage: 5 -> 3KBG: 25 -> 60KB: 100 -> 90Plasma Whip:First Hit KB: 80 -> 100Multihit:Damage: .8 -> 1.2KBG: 90 -> 70Hitbox Sizes: Altered (exact values unknown)Final Hit:Damage: 6 -> 7.5Hitbox Size: Altered (exact values unknown)Normal/Dash/Pivot Grab Last Active Frame: 29F -> 25F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I agree with many people stating thoughts here. This balance patch became a 'nerf patch'. Even my beloved Samus's Dash Attack feels worse now. They can fix the hitbox but they reduced hitstun, impact along with KGB change. It doesn't kill anymore. My Samus is racking 150%+ and I still don't have a kill throw. A fast faller when she was fine getting out of Throw combo's and other such. Samus... gameplay wise... didn't change. She can't move up from that bot tier. Dude, you're insane. General consensus is that Samus is moving up quite a few spots after this. One of the better buffs any Smash character has received so far in any patch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Geargia Gateway Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Samus got quite a few buffs, what are you talking about? Even the Dash Attack is better since you can use it for combos now. You could always use it for combo's. The dash just doesn't whiff as easy any more. And most of her changes are more, fixes. Don't whiff smash, Dash Attack, inside Ftilt is safer, linking Jab. Things that should been there to begin with. Again. Nothing gameplay wise changed. Her fundamentals didn't alter. Just more dash attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrub_Lord Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) Tfw both of your mains get nerfed. (Corrin and Cloud) Seriously tho I'm shocked that we are still getting patches. : O Edited March 16, 2016 by scrub_Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 This is a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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