What the hell is Marvel thinking? Spoiler for the comics

[eclipse]

Corrin's would be "I am a well written, well developed character whose actions make sense".

Geez, that makes no sense. Just like this "twist" released by Marvel (which makes me mad because wasn't Cap'n released around WWII?). But I'll bite.

Corrin's would be. . .

"Everything is going according to daddy Anankos' will!"

Edited May 29, 2016 by eclipse

[Water Mage]

So I've found this fan theory about Hydra!Cap:

It would explain things I suppose, but it would still be a cheap and idiotic plot, it would still be an incredibly stupid twist and it's still offensive and insulting to Captain America's legacy.

Sorry about the big image, spoiler tags weren't working for some reason.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Water Mage

[かベリー]

Reality? Phoenix? Brains? Telepathy?

What.

[Time the Crestfallen]

You know, when I first saw this I thought it was a meme edit of something different but what the actual hell? How could anyone at Marvel think this was a good idea?

I suppose we'll have Batman become one of Joker's minions or Superman willingly side with Lex Luthor or Darkseid next.

Geez, that makes no sense. Just like this "twist" released by Marvel (which makes me mad because wasn't Cap'n released around WWII?). But I'll bite.

Corrin's would be. . .

"Everything is going according to daddy Anankos' will!"

So he'd be saying...hail hydra?

I'll see myself out.

[Rezzy]

Watching the next Captain America movie is going to be really awkward if we know he's actually a Hydra agent the whole time.

[Water Mage]

Watching the next Captain America movie is going to be really awkward if we know he's actually a Hydra agent the whole time.

Say Rezzy, I meant to ask you something, since you are a mother.

I have this friend who jewish, and his son has a lot of Captain America toys, and even a costume that the kid loves.

He says that it's becoming quite uncomfortable to see his kid playing with his Captain America toys, because of this reveal, and if it sticks, it's gonna be even more awkward.

Obviously, he won't take aways the kid's toys and he's not angry at him. He knows his son loves them. But he can't deny that it's really uncomfortable, even if just a fictional character.

Rezzy, as mother yourself, would it also uncomfortable to see your kids playing with Captain America toys, if Hydra!Cap sticks?

It's just something I've been wondering. The parents's reaction, that is, since Captain America is so popular with kids.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Water Mage

[solrocknroll]

I think the thing that keeps Captain America from being absolutely horrible is Chris Evans. I mean, Cap being Hydra can make people uncomfortable, but very few people prefer the comics to the MCU. If it has to happen, MCU Steve can just be the main person made into toys.

[MacLovin]

After reading more up on the Nazi Cap controversy, I think a lot of it is that it doesn't just show Cap saying "Hail Hydra" and leaving it ambiguous. Is he serious, is he brainwashed, is he undercover? No, they show flashbacks that show he was Hydra from the very beginning. This doesn't just assassinate his character going forward. (And I could have seen this revelation being a shock job and maybe potentially paying off later, if Cap was undercover or something.) This makes every action of Cap's in the last 75 years now shaded by the fact that he's always been a Hydra agent.

I don't think I've met one person who thinks this is a good idea.

It shows him following his mother into a Hydra meeting.

Say Rezzy, I meant to ask you something, since you are a mother.

I have this friend who jewish, and his son has a lot of Captain America toys, and even a costume that the kid loves.

He says that it's becoming quite uncomfortable to see his kid playing with his Captain America toys, because of this reveal, and if it sticks, it's gonna be even more awkward.

Obviously, he won't take aways the kid's toys and he's not angry at him. He knows his son loves them. But he can't deny that it's really uncomfortable, even if just a fictional character.

Rezzy, as mother yourself, would it also uncomfortable to see your kids playing with Captain America toys, if Hydra!Cap sticks?

It's just something I've been wondering. The parents's reaction, that is, since Captain America is so popular with kids.

J.F.C.

Spencer might legit have a decent story out of this.

and if I recall, Stan Lee did say somewhere that this sounds like an interesting story. Hell, it might tie into the stuff from the end of the Pleasant Hill event with Kobik fucking around.

I actually want to see where they're going with this in relation to the Civil War 2 event and the death of a very prominent hero with heavy ties to the leaders of both sides. I can just see this being an incredible gamble.

and next we'll find out that the missing father of Tony Stark is actually Steve Rogers, that Richard Rider didn't actually really die saving the universe, and that Namor has been alive since Secret Wars 3 ended. (Quesada confirmed that they have the film rights baaack.)

oh and I'd like to know how the fuck Fixer is back and not heroic after all the stuff that happened in the last thunderbolts arc.

[Rezzy]

Say Rezzy, I meant to ask you something, since you are a mother.

I have this friend who jewish, and his son has a lot of Captain America toys, and even a costume that the kid loves.

He says that it's becoming quite uncomfortable to see his kid playing with his Captain America toys, because of this reveal, and if it sticks, it's gonna be even more awkward.

Obviously, he won't take aways the kid's toys and he's not angry at him. He knows his son loves them. But he can't deny that it's really uncomfortable, even if just a fictional character.

Rezzy, as mother yourself, would it also uncomfortable to see your kids playing with Captain America toys, if Hydra!Cap sticks?

It's just something I've been wondering. The parents's reaction, that is, since Captain America is so popular with kids.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you. I must have missed the post.

I'm not Jewish, so it doesn't have the same effect on me, but I'll treat it like I treat Spider-man after his deal with the devil and just ignore the continuity and refise to buy anything else about it, but keep all my pre-travesty merchandise.

It shows him following his mother into a Hydra meeting.

J.F.C.

Spencer might legit have a decent story out of this.

and if I recall, Stan Lee did say somewhere that this sounds like an interesting story. Hell, it might tie into the stuff from the end of the Pleasant Hill event with Kobik fucking around.

I actually want to see where they're going with this in relation to the Civil War 2 event and the death of a very prominent hero with heavy ties to the leaders of both sides. I can just see this being an incredible gamble.

and next we'll find out that the missing father of Tony Stark is actually Steve Rogers, that Richard Rider didn't actually really die saving the universe, and that Namor has been alive since Secret Wars 3 ended. (Quesada confirmed that they have the film rights baaack.)

oh and I'd like to know how the fuck Fixer is back and not heroic after all the stuff that happened in the last thunderbolts arc.

Watching Cap's mom meet with a Hydra agent and seeing Cap say "Hail Hydra" is the equivalent to seeing Cap's mom signing him up for the Hitler Youth. I'd not definitive evidence of him being a Nazi the whole time, but it's pretty damning.

If it had just been one or the other, that would be a better place for suspense. If we just saw his mom meeting with Hydra, we'd be thinking "Are Cap's parent Hydra agents? Have they been in stasis and ready to try to win him over? Was Cap tempted to join them out of family loyalty? etc?

Or if we just saw "Hail Hydra" without that little flashback, we'd have other possibilities I've already mentioned.

[MacLovin]

I'm still wondering how people can go complete apeshit over one issue and condemn a barely revealed storyline lol.

I mean there was all that nasty shit Stark did from 2006-2010 and I don't think it's referenced all that much anywhere.

As for the deal with the mother meeting a hydra agent, one might want to remember the time period and context. Personally, I get the feeling that this is going to be tying into a lot of established secondary reveals and little plot threads hanging since the AXIS event and the Red Skull. (And since the current Civil War leads Cap into being neutral, this probably leads him to not being able to rely on friends from either side for support and yadda. Also Namor's dead)

Hell, I'd think Namor's death would have actually caused more issues since that's also a major character tied into the Marvel mythos longer than any other hero except fucking Ka-Zar.

[Rezzy]

I'm still wondering how people can go complete apeshit over one issue and condemn a barely revealed storyline lol.

I mean there was all that nasty shit Stark did from 2006-2010 and I don't think it's referenced all that much anywhere.

As for the deal with the mother meeting a hydra agent, one might want to remember the time period and context. Personally, I get the feeling that this is going to be tying into a lot of established secondary reveals and little plot threads hanging since the AXIS event and the Red Skull. (And since the current Civil War leads Cap into being neutral, this probably leads him to not being able to rely on friends from either side for support and yadda. Also Namor's dead)

Hell, I'd think Namor's death would have actually caused more issues since that's also a major character tied into the Marvel mythos longer than any other hero except fucking Ka-Zar.

It was a poorly done reveal for the sake of simply being edgy. They didn't seem to take into account that Hydra is intertwined with Nazis, and Nazis are pretty much universally reviled. Even during the Cold War, the Soviets didn't get the same level of hate as the Nazis.

Pretty much any other evil organization could have been used. If for example the next James Bond movie showed a trailer of Bond saying "Long Live SPECTRE", we'd be scratching our heads wondering how it would play out, but our first thought wouldn't be "James Bond is a Nazi!?". That tie to Nazism just sours everybody on the idea so much, that even if Marvel produced the best story from the premise ever, a solid majority of fans are going to hate it.

[Augestein]

I'm still wondering how people can go complete apeshit over one issue and condemn a barely revealed storyline lol.

I mean there was all that nasty shit Stark did from 2006-2010 and I don't think it's referenced all that much anywhere.

As for the deal with the mother meeting a hydra agent, one might want to remember the time period and context. Personally, I get the feeling that this is going to be tying into a lot of established secondary reveals and little plot threads hanging since the AXIS event and the Red Skull. (And since the current Civil War leads Cap into being neutral, this probably leads him to not being able to rely on friends from either side for support and yadda. Also Namor's dead)

Hell, I'd think Namor's death would have actually caused more issues since that's also a major character tied into the Marvel mythos longer than any other hero except fucking Ka-Zar.

Because there are some things that just shouldn't happen with characters. Sometimes decisions like this are so strong that it literally dampers earlier aspects, where in its own tunnel having a trusted character reveal to be a spy is a shocking twist that you want to see more of. Having your main character that you've watched his/her struggles and hoped they come up victorious only for them to go "lol I'm evil." Isn't good without an explanation... Of which, the flashback was what sealed the deal for people going nuts over it. People are worried that this will be another alteration that places the story in such a stupid spot that it's hard to recover. It's also because of what Captain America, the character itself, is supposed to represent.

Iron Man isn't really meant to represent anything. So it's really not the same.

[Rezzy]

Because there are some things that just shouldn't happen with characters. Sometimes decisions like this are so strong that it literally dampers earlier aspects, where in its own tunnel having a trusted character reveal to be a spy is a shocking twist that you want to see more of. Having your main character that you've watched his/her struggles and hoped they come up victorious only for them to go "lol I'm evil." Isn't good without an explanation... Of which, the flashback was what sealed the deal for people going nuts over it. People are worried that this will be another alteration that places the story in such a stupid spot that it's hard to recover. It's also because of what Captain America, the character itself, is supposed to represent.

Iron Man isn't really meant to represent anything. So it's really not the same.

Iron Man's always been an anti-hero to some extent, whereas Captain America is a freaking Paladin.

[Augestein]

Iron Man's always been an anti-hero to some extent, whereas Captain America is a freaking Paladin.

That too. It's not even just "Iron Man's always been an anti-hero." Iron Man doesn't have to actually live up to any standards but his own. Basically, it's like having Spider Man be destined to be a hero, and that it's his fate rather than it just being seemingly bad/good luck on his part.

The paladin analogy is great. You can't have a paladin say "yeah, I've always been a dark knight." You just can't. If he was, he is unworthy of being a paladin. And I don't even want to get into worth in that regard...

[Rezzy]

That too. It's not even just "Iron Man's always been an anti-hero." Iron Man doesn't have to actually live up to any standards but his own. Basically, it's like having Spider Man be destined to be a hero, and that it's his fate rather than it just being seemingly bad/good luck on his part.

The paladin analogy is great. You can't have a paladin say "yeah, I've always been a dark knight." You just can't. If he was, he is unworthy of being a paladin. And I don't even want to get into worth in that regard...

That reminds me of the whole point of how Cap was ever able to wield Mjolnir, if he's been a Hydra agent the whole time, but continuity probably wasn't in mind when they made this creative decision.

[MacLovin]

Because there are some things that just shouldn't happen with characters. Sometimes decisions like this are so strong that it literally dampers earlier aspects, where in its own tunnel having a trusted character reveal to be a spy is a shocking twist that you want to see more of. Having your main character that you've watched his/her struggles and hoped they come up victorious only for them to go "lol I'm evil." Isn't good without an explanation... Of which, the flashback was what sealed the deal for people going nuts over it. People are worried that this will be another alteration that places the story in such a stupid spot that it's hard to recover. It's also because of what Captain America, the character itself, is supposed to represent.

Iron Man isn't really meant to represent anything. So it's really not the same.

You do remember that one time Dr. Doom was tested as "pure" by the Wakandan Panther God, right?

Eh I have this gut feeling that says that this is going to end up being another "loss of faith" type story.

That reminds me of the whole point of how Cap was ever able to wield Mjolnir, if he's been a Hydra agent the whole time, but continuity probably wasn't in mind when they made this creative decision.

methinks Nick Spencer is gambling his career on this.

[Water Mage]

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you. I must have missed the post.

I'm not Jewish, so it doesn't have the same effect on me, but I'll treat it like I treat Spider-man after his deal with the devil and just ignore the continuity and refise to buy anything else about it, but keep all my pre-travesty merchandise.

Don't worry about it.

And like you, I'm not jewish, so it's hard to imagine how awkward this must be for Jewish people.

Speaking of Jewish people and Nick Spencer, take a look at this guys:

While Nick isn't obligated to know the religion of everyone, as this picture shows, Clark did state many times that due to his Jewish origins, the whole "Hail Hydra" jokes makes him very uncomfortable, so Nick should have known better.

Nick Spencer is really digging himself a hole by trying to be edgy.

And he may drag his career with it.

[Rezzy]

Don't worry about it.

And like you, I'm not jewish, so it's hard to imagine how awkward this must be for Jewish people.

Speaking of Jewish people and Nick Spencer, take a look at this guys:

While Nick isn't obligated to know the religion of everyone, as this picture shows, Clark did state many times that due to his Jewish origins, the whole "Hail Hydra" jokes makes him very uncomfortable, so Nick should have known better.

Nick Spencer is really digging himself a hole by trying to be edgy.

And he may drag his career with it.

I could understand people wearing Hydra gear or whatnot, it's sort of like people wearing Empire or New Order stuff from Star Wars, since they've always been borderline Space Nazis. Hydra is just explicitly linked with Nazis and being anti Nazi was a prominent part of Cap's origin story; he's known as the guy who punched Hitler in the face.

I just hate the character assassination of Captain America, who's always been opposed to the Nazi school of thought on a very base level. He's always been for Truth, Justice, and the American Way, even more so than Superman. It would be like if Yoda turned out to be a Sith Lord the whole time.