A new take on the Camus archetype

[blah the Prussian]

So, with good reason, the Camus archetype is one of the most despised of the FE archetypes, with Xander in particular getting a lot of flack. Basically, they come off as hypocritical, unsympathetic, and outright stupid, especially in the case of Xander. This is why I propose a fresh take on the archetype. The scenario is this: like in most FE games, the stereotypical evil country has invaded the Lord's nation and taken it over. However, some influential figure in said nation, like a General, politician, or even member of the Royal Family, is installed by the empire as the leader of their country; basically, a Quisling. Unlike most Quislings, though, this one isn't motivated by lust for power, or even with agreement with the invader. No, instead he honestly views the war as over, and thinks that collaboration with the empire is the only way forwards. Further bloodshed, he argues, will only hurt the nation. I think this could lead to an interesting dynamic with the protagonist causing them to question if it actually helps their people, continuing to fight. The Camus character could also be made more interesting by not wanting to switch sides because they don't feel they deserve it, and maybe the people o fthe country doesn't want to forgive him. It would be similar to Xander's suicide by cop in Birthright, which I felt was the only good thing they did with his character in all of Fates. So what do you think? Does this idea for a character interest you at all?

[Moblin Major General]

Camus himself isn't as flawed as you think. Eldigan, Murdoch, Shiharam, and Xander suffer from flawed logic, but Camus does not. Yes, his reason for not joining is stupid, but he does it because he wanted Dohlr to see Marth as much scarier than he seemed by "killing" Grust's most powerful and esteemed General. Not to mention that he figured out how stupid his reason was and comes back to save Nyna and kick some Shadow Dragon ass. The others have no excuse, especially Eldigan. I would improve Eldigan by having Quan recruit him, as Quan has the level head to talk him down. This would lead instead to Ethlyn, Quan and Eldigan to leave the map, and Eldigan would the sole survivor of Yied, only to die with Sigurd at Belhalla. Murdoch and Shiharam are using logic so fuzzy the black market could get rich off of them. Xander just suffers from bad writing and lack of group coordination, and would require a rewrite of the script.

[blah the Prussian]

Shiharam IMO is actually the worst Famus because he owes no actual loyalty to Daein, so he really has no reason whatsoever to stay. Eldigan switching sides would have been interesting because it would mean Sigurd would have a power base in Augustria. I wrote a horrifically bad fanfic a few years ago where Sigurd stays in Augustria after Eldigan becomes King, and then Eldigan doesn't go in to Grandbell with him, so he and Trabant forge an enemy mine after Barhara to oppose Alvis. At leas that's where it was going, but then I stopped and the writing was shit anyway.

[The Geek]

Camus himself isn't as flawed as you think. Eldigan, Murdoch, Shiharam, and Xander suffer from flawed logic, but Camus does not. Yes, his reason for not joining is stupid, but he does it because he wanted Dohlr to see Marth as much scarier than he seemed by "killing" Grust's most powerful and esteemed General. Not to mention that he figured out how stupid his reason was and comes back to save Nyna and kick some Shadow Dragon ass. The others have no excuse, especially Eldigan. I would improve Eldigan by having Quan recruit him, as Quan has the level head to talk him down. This would lead instead to Ethlyn, Quan and Eldigan to leave the map, and Eldigan would the sole survivor of Yied, only to die with Sigurd at Belhalla. Murdoch and Shiharam are using logic so fuzzy the black market could get rich off of them. Xander just suffers from bad writing and lack of group coordination, and would require a rewrite of the script.

Doesn't FE3 imply that the reason Camus agreed to fight for Dolhr is because Gharnef was holding the Grustian royal family hostage?

On topic, I like blah's idea for a new Camus, and I'm actually surprised that no FE game has done that before. One who's basically just given in to despair and doesn't catch onto the protagonist's "we can accomplish anything together" attitude.

Edited June 27, 2016 by The Geek

[sirmola]

Now that I think about it, i'm surprised that FE4 gen 2 does not do this. It would certainly match the setting.

[bookofholsety]

I would improve Eldigan by having Quan recruit him, as Quan has the level head to talk him down.

>quan

>levelheaded

>quan, Part Three of the Greatest Bro Trio In Jugdral History, whose partners in crime include sigurd, He Of The Accidental Wars, and eldigan, who needs no introduction

>quan, who was described by his own mother as "rash"

>quan, who was perpetually paranoid and warmongery about thracia, to the point that his actions really gave the other manster district rulers the shits (this is discussed in either leonster's fall or fe5, and hinted at in his introduction in fe4 when sigurd talks about how "Aren't your hands full there, keeping an eye on Thracia?")

>quan, who had like zero respect for any of his enemies ("the thugs of Verdane", "They're like wild hyenas, Ethlyn!")

look, i love quan. he's a fine character and was incredibly fun to translate. but level-headed he ain't. the dude isn't known for his nuanced appreciation of the affairs of state, and certainly wouldn't have had the ability to talk eldigan down out of that clusterfuck. i mean, if anything, ethlyn is the one with the level head in that particular marriage

Edited June 28, 2016 by bookofholsety

[NekoKnight]

I don't dislike the archetype in general. With other Camus characters, you don't see as much of their side so it's a bit more plausible that they serve their country over a specific leader, or maybe that they value the oaths of loyalty they swear, even if their lord is evil/became evil. The reason why I hate Xander is that you DO see everything on his side, which makes his loyalty to his dad even more confounding. Garon isn't just a dick to other countries, he tries to have his own children killed, and he doesn't even try to hide it.

I do like your idea, however. Our protagonists tend to be young lords just beginning to take the reins of leadership. Such a Camus/Quisling as you describe would present a good life lesson on the responsibilities of leadership. There could be a contrast between the bold idealism of a young hero and the well-intentioned pragmatism of a head of state.

[Etrurian emperor]

So basically something like Suzaku from Code Geas? I could see that working, especially if its someone the lord knows personally.

Camus himself isn't as flawed as you think. Eldigan, Murdoch, Shiharam, and Xander suffer from flawed logic, but Camus does not. Yes, his reason for not joining is stupid, but he does it because he wanted Dohlr to see Marth as much scarier than he seemed by "killing" Grust's most powerful and esteemed General. Not to mention that he figured out how stupid his reason was and comes back to save Nyna and kick some Shadow Dragon ass.

Is that really ever stated? Its a very long time ago since I played either shadow Dragon or FE13 but nothing indicates in those games that he is motivated by anything other then the duty to stand with his king. I also don't recall him ever saying he regrets it. In fact his joining seems directly linked to his loyalty to Grust because he arrives to protect the royal children.

Doesn't FE3 imply that the reason Camus agreed to fight for Dolhr is because Gharnef was holding the Grustian royal family hostage?

It is mentioned the royal kids were being given by Gharnef as hostages but Its also said that the king is the one who gave them away as hostages which implies he himself isn't a hostage, just a coward willing to let his preteen children be tortured by Gharnef. Somehow that didn't give Camus the indication that this wasn't a man worth fighting for.

[Sartek]

Now that I think about it, i'm surprised that FE4 gen 2 does not do this. It would certainly match the setting.

There's Ishtar in some ways.

[sirmola]

There's Ishtar in some ways.

I thought of that, but she is actually in an (abusive) relationship with the big bad, so its not quite what blah suggested. (The reason for the camus to not switch over being love for the villain is a really interesting and realistic implementation of a camus, though)

Edited June 29, 2016 by sirmola

[NekoKnight]

So basically something like Suzaku from Code Geas? I could see that working, especially if its someone the lord knows personally.

Please no. Suzaku was an incredibly frustrating character.

[blah the Prussian]

Please no. Suzaku was an incredibly frustrating character.

Yeah, no. It wouldn't be like Suzaku. There wouldn't be any of the "change it from within" crap, the character simply sees collaboration as the best of bad options.

[Jotari]

I feel like something along these lines might have worked well in Radiant Dawn Part 1. Granted the Begnion occupation forces were such colossal dicks that if they did attempt something like that there people might still get annoyed at the Camus for cooperation. Then again it could have been a good way of presenting a chicken and egg scenario by suggesting Begnion were so brutal because there was open rebellion against them.

[blah the Prussian]

Well it already was a flaw in RD's writing making the occupation so one dimensional, especially when there are so many good opportunities there. For example, what if Micaiah is presented with a choice on whether or not to work with some Ashnard loyalists? Instead, all of the people of Daein, we are told, are saints, despite what the last game told us, and indeed, an issue with racism is grout up only for the plot to instantly toss it out the window! Sigh. But yeah, the Camus in this case could be an opponent of Ashnard who is made the new King of Daein, but is only a puppet for Begnion. That would be interesting because he has goals that we legitimately sympathize with beyond just loyalty, which is generic and boring. The only other Camus I can think of that does something like that is Ishtar, and that's because she's the Harley Quinn to Julius's Joker.

[Moblin Major General]

My ideal Camus works in a scenario where the main party hails from a flawed nation that underwent radical reforms during a period of occupation. The lord decides to liberate his country when the occupiers of said country move against a small, defenseless country that was falsely accused of the same crimes the home country was guilty of. The Camus actually works alongside the player until both are liberated, but has to decide between the black and white rigidity of the moralistic empire, or the hopeful peace granted by the Liberation. In the end, they and their most loyal troops, ones solely devoted to them, fight the final battle of the game, to determine if the Empire can continue to monitor the continent entire, or if the will of the people has changed. Unlike other Camuses, they don't die when they lose. Instead, he will respect the independence based on the will of the lord or lady.