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Who Are the Worst Units?

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2 hours ago, Sire said:

As an aside, I find Armorslayers (and to a lesser extent other effective weapons) suffer from a lack of battle information before the battles start. Ruby, Emerald, Sapphire, +WTA Grey, and Dragonslayer weapons have their uses and can easily be used to their full potential by a simple glance at the map selection before battle (excluding Arenas). To my knowledge, there is no way to determine if there will be enemy Cavalry, Fliers, or Armored units until the battle has started or the map is a Story mission.

Silver Weapons and Brave Weapons will always outclass effective weapons because of how general they are. Special Weapons (typically weapons of main lords, such as Lyn's Sol Katti or the Falchion) are just plain "overpowered" compared to their "normal" counterparts.  Effective weapons are only situationally good, and while they shine during those situations, they are subpar everywhere else. Even then, in the case of Armorslayer units, just bring a mage instead as Armored units tend to have low RES and normally cannot retaliate at range. (Watch as they introduce "Bow" and "Magic" armors next. Heck, even have a "Staff" armor too! Actually, this may be a decent method to "buff" melee Armorslayers and not always rely on magic or ranged chip damage to defeat armored units...)

The Falchion is an exception to the rule as it has high MT, a self heal, and is effective against Dragons. A 16 MT Falchion is far superior to a mere 12 MT Armorslayer+ or even the classic 15 MT Silver Sword+. Even though the effective target is different (Dragon vs Armor), it is still a little ridiculous.

Killer weapons have their own niche and I think they are pretty useful, but it seems the Tier List and overall meta does not put much emphasis on skill activation versus general stat and skill allocation.

The Falchion isn't an exception to the rule because it is first and foremost a +16-Atk weapon. By default, it already outclasses a Silver Sword+, which you already rated higher than type-effective weapons one paragraph earlier.

In the Arena, the primary use of type-effective weapons and skills is to be prepared for specific common and otherwise potentially difficult enemies or enemy compositions. Their use, however, is limited by which enemies are common to see as well as how good the unit using the weapon or skill is when put against other enemies:

  • The Falchion and Naga cover Tiki and Nowi. Both weapons are also powerful in their own right.
  • The Raven series covers Takumi.
  • Bows cover Camilla and Cordelia. Bows, being physical, ranged weapons, are useful on their own.
  • The Swordbreaker skill covers the plethora of natural 5-star sword units, considering it is common to see two or more on a given team.

In the story, they are useful because you can already know the enemy composition. In the training tower, they aren't useful unless you are lucky, but the main point of the training tower usually is to make your units useful elsewhere.

 

58 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Because I pulled Donnel something like four times.  Other amazing notes:


- I STILL have 2 5* units, and I consider myself lucky
- No armors
- No mounted healers, but all the foot ones (I think)
- I think the only dagger user I'm missing is Kagero
- Think of a "good" blue unit.  I probably don't own him/her.  Best one IMO is Shanna, followed by Odin.

The RNG is weird as all hell, and I'm at a serious loss for words.

Young Tiki, Lucina, and natural 5-star Marth have had the exact same drop rate as each other at any given time with any given gacha set. They are also all the same color, so there is no way to bias your pulls towards one of them by focusing on a single color. By all means, I should have similar numbers of each of them.

I have so far pulled:

  • 5 natural 5-star Marth,
  • 8 young Tiki, and
  • 21 Lucina, 6 of which are -HP, +Res.

I have pulled more -HP, +Res Lucina than I have pulled natural 5-star Marth. I am beyond confused.

I'm pretty sure the RNG just hates players and Desire Sensor is in full swing.

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5 hours ago, Seafarer said:

The thing about Eliwood is that he's not a physical tank. I've been using him to laugh in the face of even blue mages, though, and that's at 3*.

This. Also, considering his feat in the original game, it makes sense why he is the best Lord that can tank mages.

 

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24 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The Falchion isn't an exception to the rule because it is first and foremost a +16-Atk weapon. By default, it already outclasses a Silver Sword+, which you already rated higher than type-effective weapons one paragraph earlier.

In the Arena, the primary use of type-effective weapons and skills is to be prepared for specific common and otherwise potentially difficult enemies or enemy compositions. Their use, however, is limited by which enemies are common to see as well as how good the unit using the weapon or skill is when put against other enemies:

  • The Falchion and Naga cover Tiki and Nowi. Both weapons are also powerful in their own right.
  • The Raven series covers Takumi.
  • Bows cover Camilla and Cordelia. Bows, being physical, ranged weapons, are useful on their own.
  • The Swordbreaker skill covers the plethora of natural 5-star sword units, considering it is common to see two or more on a given team.

In the story, they are useful because you can already know the enemy composition. In the training tower, they aren't useful unless you are lucky, but the main point of the training tower usually is to make your units useful elsewhere.

I know the Falchion isn't an exception if we count it from a "Special Weapon (+16 ATT)" standpoint, but from an "Effective Weapon" standpoint, it clearly outclasses them. That was the point I was trying to make. I will not deny how effective the Falchion is in Arena, but if we had a generic "Wyrmslayer" with just 12 MT and no healing bonus, I'm sure players would be a little more hard pressed to bring those characters to the Arena instead of an alternative.

So, say if Lucina was equipped with a Wrymslayer instead of a Falchion and her sole purpose was to counter Dragons, I may be better off fielding Linde instead to take advantage of Linde's high SPD and Magic ATT to exploit the lower speeds and resistances of Dragons. Of course, as this situation does not exist (nor does a generic "Wyrmslayer" in Heroes) Lucina is a solid choice since the Falchion deals high damage (16 MT) with the dragon effectiveness and healing bonus.

As for effective weapons, I did not cover Bows specifically as an "Effective Weapon" as I consider them to be a "ranged physical" instead of a "flier effective" weapon. That, and Bows have almost always been anti-flier, so I did not put them in that category. When I say "Effective Weapon," I usually mean granting bonuses against armored, mounted, dragon, or beast (laguz in Tellius) units. In Heroes we also have "Triangle Weapons," which are the gem weapons as well as the Raven series to cover Grey units. Also, I didn't cover the (weapon)breaker skills, which are useful in their own right.

In addition, I'm not trying to bash effective weaponry as they do their job extremely well, but outside of that, their performance is a little weak. This "weakness" is expanded upon when the player does not know what is coming and thus the player will usually field a more generic team instead of a specific one. In Story Mode, I'll happily use Armorslayers against Zephiel and his walking wall of death because I know it is coming. Elsewhere, like in the Training Tower or Arena, I rather use a mage to cover more roles. In classic Fire Emblem, this would not be so much a concern because we had an inventory and can swap weapons as needed. In Heroes, we are restricted on a per character basis, and if one's favorite character is dedicated to a particular niche, it can be difficult to use that character all of the time.

In short, what I am trying to say is that I feel that Armorslayer heroes may be underperforming. One reason is not always knowing what the enemy composition is, prompting players to build a more general team instead of a specific build. Another is that the character wielding an Armorslayer may not do enough damage for the effective modifier to do anything (such as Caeda and Florina). As these characters are already specialized to be anti-armor, unless there is a high chance of encountering an armored unit, they will not often be used elsewhere.

The Falchion and Naga are Special Weapons that happen to be effective against dragons. I do not count them as "true Effective Weapons." Bows are fine. The Raven series is fine (if not superior to Gem Weapons). I did not cover (weaponbreaker) skills as I was focusing solely on weapons. "Triangle Weapons," especially the Gem Weapons, are situationally useful, gaining bonuses when they are effective but getting penalized when they are not.

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4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

I have so far pulled:

  • 5 natural 5-star Marth,
  • 8 young Tiki, and
  • 21 Lucina, 6 of which are -HP, +Res.

I have pulled more -HP, +Res Lucina than I have pulled natural 5-star Marth. I am beyond confused.

I'm pretty sure the RNG just hates players and Desire Sensor is in full swing.

Wow, that's a lot of 5*.  How much money have you spent on Orbs?

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Personally I think Sophia needs a buff in her defenses and a little bit in her speed, she is one of the few cases where I found a character that outright... inferior.. to other characters.

Where i can find the Tier List?

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sophia.thumb.png.6d5f5c49aafa1f5f68f5b04e125d66bd.png

Raised from the 2* you get from the special map.  Fight me.

Maybe other units are objectively better, but Sophia works well enough for me.  Admittedly I'm not into super competitive arena tournaments, but... Her high and matched def/res mean you have to use speed or WTA to take her down, she'll shrug off everything else.  Dragon fang is hard to pull off but put her up against a speedy unit that does 0 damage to her and it'll become ready plenty soon.  Lastly fortify res has saved my other units many a time when trying to take down powerful enemy mages.

Haven't tried it yet but I'm curious to see how well she will do on a team that promotes speed advantages (Slow staffs, fortify spd, etc).  Might rectify that 19 speed, might not justify building a team around her.  Whatevs.

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28 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

https://feheroes.wiki/Tier_List

Bottom of the barrel.

Wow, Cordelia really got knocked down.  She was top of the tier last I saw.  I'm surprised Nino is so high.

It kind of bugs me about the tier names.  C is supposed to mean average, but it's the lowest possible tier.  I'd change A+ to just A, A to B, and so forth, so C tier was called D tier.

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8 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Wow, Cordelia really got knocked down.  She was top of the tier last I saw.  I'm surprised Nino is so high.

It kind of bugs me about the tier names.  C is supposed to mean average, but it's the lowest possible tier.  I'd change A+ to just A, A to B, and so forth, so C tier was called D tier.

In the other hand, Sharena was bottom tier character in the  first version of the same Tier (Blue/Lance), now she is S Tier, only below legendary utility character (Azura)

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1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

Wow, Cordelia really got knocked down.  She was top of the tier last I saw.  I'm surprised Nino is so high.

It kind of bugs me about the tier names.  C is supposed to mean average, but it's the lowest possible tier.  I'd change A+ to just A, A to B, and so forth, so C tier was called D tier.

I don't often see C as the average though so that part doesn't bother me. however, the '+' designations are probably valid. as the list mentions at the top, SS was changed to S+ to emphasize less of a gap with S. so you can put the same reasoning for A+ and B+. normally, if you saw Unit A was A tier and Unit B was B tier, it'd be really easy to claim Unit is is superior to B and/or can be used in like 85%+ of situations. however, B vs B+... shrinks to either metagame considerations (more so at least), or something like 60%+ of situations instead. and people wouldn't immediately say B+ outright outclasses B, which is probably the intention

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4 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Wow, that's a lot of 5*.  How much money have you spent on Orbs?

You don't want to know. (And if you do, you can check my spreadsheet in my research thread. Every line in the data pool is one of my own pulls.)

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2 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

https://feheroes.wiki/Tier_List

Bottom of the barrel.

Yikes, Cherche is ranked alongside Hawkeye? Ouch.

As someone who's had both at 4* I feel pretty confident in saying Cherche is far superior to Hawkeye.... Her mobility alone makes a huge difference, and even with just an effective weapon I've found her strong enough to muscle her way past the WTA on a couple occasions (something I've never seen enemy Camillas do in the arena), her mobility skill is really useful for both putting her in battle to tank blue units and getting her out of range of bows, and her speed is decent enough that she at least avoided getting doubled a fair amount of the time for me. All in all her kit is WAY more useful than anything Hawkeye's got....

IDK if she deserves A-tier, but she's definitely better than Hawkeye lmao. #Hawkeye for C-tier

Yikes and Oboro's C too?? I mean... My Oboro single-handedly took out a team of four that included a bow, an axe flier, and an axe knight, so.... shrug??

EDIT: I dunno if Sophia should be that low either. She seems pretty good as far as magic tanks are concerned...?? I thought she was better than Raigh, at least... though maybe my shitty 2* Raigh has ruined him for me

Edited by BANRYU

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I think C as the lowest tier(ATM works well enough, if you consider that the worst units in the game might not be bad units, so much as outclassed or not the best in the meta. Let's look at Selena, as an example of someone in C tier, who would be considered one of the worst available units. 

Pros - Pretty good stat total(170 at 5*, Sharena is the highest non-armour at 177), balanced defenses(37/29/28 isn't super tanky, but it's relatively beefy, and 35 speed is rarely doubled), Armourslayer + Triangle adept makes her immensely strong against Hector, Threaten Speed is good utility, and combined with her high speed, shores up her offense by allowing her to double(she has 40 effective speed vs anything in range to be threatened) despite her rather middle of the road 41 Atk, and reposition can be neat utility at times.

Cons - Needs to be upgraded to be 5*, requires effort to be made strong, is generally outclassed by sword lords, armourslayer is situational, green units are scarce in the meta, Hector/Camilla/possibly Julia aside, doesn't have any particularly standout stats aside from her speed, has no procs to increase her offensive potential, what you see is what you get.

She's not someone you would clamber to get on your side, but if you enjoy Selena and want to use her, she functions perfectly fine, and does everything you want a sword character to do in a team. She isn't as overall powerful or generalist as someone like Lucina(hence the large gap), but if you would slap her down to something like D or E tier just to hammer home that she's one of the weaker sword units, you would be greatly under-selling what she does bring to the table. I can understand wanting a full scale, but rating the worst unit in the game a 1/10 just because they're the worst unit seems like overkill, if said unit is still perfectly workable and functions in the way you would expect that type of unit to.

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7 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

EDIT: I dunno if Sophia should be that low either. She seems pretty good as far as magic tanks are concerned...?? I thought she was better than Raigh, at least... though maybe my shitty 2* Raigh has ruined him for me

Oh dear, that's a ban-worthy sentiment! :P:

Sophia seems to be straight damage, complete with a proc.  However, her Speed is less than desirable, which means that she needs to get multiple attacks in. . .assuming that she survives for that long!

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20 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Yikes, Cherche is ranked alongside Hawkeye? Ouch.

As someone who's had both at 4* I feel pretty confident in saying Cherche is far superior to Hawkeye.... Her mobility alone makes a huge difference, and even with just an effective weapon I've found her strong enough to muscle her way past the WTA on a couple occasions (something I've never seen enemy Camillas do in the arena), her mobility skill is really useful for both putting her in battle to tank blue units and getting her out of range of bows, and her speed is decent enough that she at least avoided getting doubled a fair amount of the time for me. All in all her kit is WAY more useful than anything Hawkeye's got....

IDK if she deserves A-tier, but she's definitely better than Hawkeye lmao. #Hawkeye for C-tier

I think the problem with ranking axe units is that with so many red-sword units in the arena, it's hard to really figure out where all the axe units fall. Looking at the tier list, all of the A and B tier units seem the same to me -- solid, but not particularly special. As somebody who runs Cherche a lot, I would say that Cherche would stand out a little if not for all the Takumis running around. As it is ... she's indistinguishable from the rest. You could bump her up to 'A' tier and it wouldn't mean a lot.

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Oh dear, that's a ban-worthy sentiment! :P:

Sophia seems to be straight damage, complete with a proc.  However, her Speed is less than desirable, which means that she needs to get multiple attacks in. . .assuming that she survives for that long!

omg I wanted to use him, I swear ;; I like Raigh, just... in-game auto-join Raigh is SO BAAAD and I can't spare the feathers since I got virtually no 5*s ;;

Yeah, Sophia would have really benefitted from Wary Fighter or something, haha... ;; hard to take advantage of Dragon Fang unless you're playing her cautiously and get the right opponents (no physical ranged units) and right map (lots of gaps like the lava maps).

1 hour ago, Fly_or_Die said:

I think the problem with ranking axe units is that with so many red-sword units in the arena, it's hard to really figure out where all the axe units fall. Looking at the tier list, all of the A and B tier units seem the same to me -- solid, but not particularly special. As somebody who runs Cherche a lot, I would say that Cherche would stand out a little if not for all the Takumis running around. As it is ... she's indistinguishable from the rest. You could bump her up to 'A' tier and it wouldn't mean a lot.

You might be right about that. I've found her to be better than Beruka, at least, but TBH I haven't had a huge crop of worthwhile axe-users to compare her to lol (Beruka and Barst is about it).

Hopefully the meta balances out all the swordlords running around soon enough.

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13 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

omg I wanted to use him, I swear ;; I like Raigh, just... in-game auto-join Raigh is SO BAAAD and I can't spare the feathers since I got virtually no 5*s ;;

Yeah, Sophia would have really benefitted from Wary Fighter or something, haha... ;; hard to take advantage of Dragon Fang unless you're playing her cautiously and get the right opponents (no physical ranged units) and right map (lots of gaps like the lava maps).

You might be right about that. I've found her to be better than Beruka, at least, but TBH I haven't had a huge crop of worthwhile axe-users to compare her to lol (Beruka and Barst is about it).

Hopefully the meta balances out all the swordlords running around soon enough.

I found Lilina had the same problem with her proc.  The 5 timer countdown pretty much never reached zero, since she can't take hits at all and never doubles anybody.  Tiki has the same Proc, but she's a little speedier and and take hits.  She's not doubling a lot, with her speed, but she's a tier above Lilina, there, who even has trouble doubling armors.

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36 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

omg I wanted to use him, I swear ;; I like Raigh, just... in-game auto-join Raigh is SO BAAAD and I can't spare the feathers since I got virtually no 5*s ;;

Yeah, Sophia would have really benefitted from Wary Fighter or something, haha... ;; hard to take advantage of Dragon Fang unless you're playing her cautiously and get the right opponents (no physical ranged units) and right map (lots of gaps like the lava maps).

You might be right about that. I've found her to be better than Beruka, at least, but TBH I haven't had a huge crop of worthwhile axe-users to compare her to lol (Beruka and Barst is about it).

Hopefully the meta balances out all the swordlords running around soon enough.

If you have the patience to level Sophia, of all units, you can level Raigh.

21 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I found Lilina had the same problem with her proc.  The 5 timer countdown pretty much never reached zero, since she can't take hits at all and never doubles anybody.  Tiki has the same Proc, but she's a little speedier and and take hits.  She's not doubling a lot, with her speed, but she's a tier above Lilina, there, who even has trouble doubling armors.

I MAKE Tiki double.  Especially against the Hectors I encounter, who exist to make her counter skyrocket.

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59 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If you have the patience to level Sophia, of all units, you can level Raigh.

I MAKE Tiki double.  Especially against the Hectors I encounter, who exist to make her counter skyrocket.

difference is that even 1* Sophia can actually land kills on enemies with more than 3 HP remaining /shot

I tried, dude =3= I really did. If I had fewer units I needed to spend Feathers on, I'd just boost him with crystals and level him as a bronze or silver, but as it is I got too many babs competing for my resources since this game won't give me another dang 5*

Also Sophia gets dragon bias

Edited by BANRYU

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On 2/18/2017 at 9:15 PM, Roflolxp54 said:

As much as I like Cecilia, I can't help but want more out of her as a unit. Right now, she's lv. 40 4-stars but stuck with the following stats:

34 HP

42 Atk

23 Spd

17 Def

27 Res

My 4-star Cecilia

31 HP

34 Atk

24 Spd

19 Def

27 Res

She stays at level 37. She just refuses to hurt anyone and refuses to level up.

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