Who Are the Worst Units?

[Rezzy]

Heroes IV Calculator

This handy site gives stats and guides for various units, but it struck me that pretty much all the units they have reviewed so far have been given good scores.  Even Alfonse, who's bashed as being pretty cruddy with skills that counteract each other was given a 7.5/10.  If the ten point scale is really only a 3 point scale, it's not really useful.

One unit that I originally thought was good, but turned into crap for me was Florina.  She gets an Heavy Spear, but her Atk is so low that she cannot deal much damage even with the bonus, and her Def is so low that she's pretty much guaranteed to get killed on a counter attack.  She can function as a decent Mage killer, but she would have benefited from a Brave Weapon or even a Silver Lance or the Heavy Spear which does her little good.

Florina is not listed on their page yet, so maybe she'll actually get a score below 7, since like I said, if everybody's got a high score, the scale needs to be changed.

What are some units that people have found performed much worse than the rest of their party?

[Saleh]

niles is really disappointing. he's meant to be a mage killer with high res and low defense but felicia does eveything better with the same activation skill and much more utility, at the cost of lower attack (which doesnt matter against mages).

[eclipse]

One day, I will figure out Donnel's niche, or I will pull Clarine.  Until then, he's gonna warm his heels on the bench.

[maybe]

hawkeye fuckin sucks

4 star at least, his 5 star version could be better

Edited February 19, 2017 by unique

[JJ48]

Eliwood.

Level 40 4-star and he still gets taken out by Green units.

(I'd love to test him out at 5 stars, but I'll have to wait until the game finally decides to give me some Great Badges, which hasn't happened in over a week.  >_>)

[Rezzy]

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Eliwood.

Level 40 4-star and he still gets taken out by Green units.

(I'd love to test him out at 5 stars, but I'll have to wait until the game finally decides to give me some Great Badges, which hasn't happened in over a week.  >_>)

Try doing the top tiers of the Training Tower, I think at least level 8 gives them.  I've got at least 32 Great Badges of every color.

[JJ48]

2 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Try doing the top tiers of the Training Tower, I think at least level 8 gives them.  I've got at least 32 Great Badges of every color.

Levels 8-10 of the Training Tower have been pretty much the only thing I've done in the game each day for the past week.  I get plenty of regular badges, but the game hasn't dropped a single Great Badge for me in that time period.

Edited February 19, 2017 by JJ48

[Roflolxp54]

As much as I like Cecilia, I can't help but want more out of her as a unit. Right now, she's lv. 40 4-stars but stuck with the following stats:

34 HP

42 Atk

23 Spd

17 Def

27 Res

She's slow and physically frail. Even with her Atk and Gronnraven tome, she may struggle to land kills, especially against fliers. She even struggles against enemy mages, especially if they're carrying anti-cavalry tomes (even blue anti-cavalry mages can easily destroy her). Her Spd and Def are bad enough that even with WTA over colorless units, Cecilia can easily be ORKO'd by strong bow users or shuriken users like Takumi or Gaius. The only type of enemy unit she can reliably kill are lance/axe armor knights.

Rally Resistance is pretty nice but it can make next-to-no difference for certain units (ie. Lyn vs. the mounted blue mage in Narcian's hard map).

Out of the units I use very frequently, Cecilia probably has been defeated the most times.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Rezzy]

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Levels 8-10 of the Training Tower have been pretty much the only thing I've done in the game each day for the past week.  I get plenty of regular badges, but the game hasn't dropped a single Great Badge for me in that time period.

That's odd.  I've got 152-271 of the lesser badges, and 32-79 of the great badges.  It seems a statistical anomaly that you would not have gotten a single one during that time.

[JJ48]

1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

That's odd.  I've got 152-271 of the lesser badges, and 32-79 of the great badges.  It seems a statistical anomaly that you would not have gotten a single one during that time.

Welcome to my experience in RNG-driven games.

[Junkhead]

45 minutes ago, Saleh said:

niles is really disappointing. he's meant to be a mage killer with high res and low defense but felicia does eveything better with the same activation skill and much more utility, at the cost of lower attack (which doesnt matter against mages).

yeah, hit me up when you stumble upon a mage outtanking your fucking infantries

[Sire]

For me...

1. Cecilia: I brought her along for my "Cavalry" Team to fulfill magic damage, but she is a bit slow for my liking. However, I may just be used to speedy characters since I use a +SPD Ryoma extensively and use Marth on a regular basis. Cecilia may be able to outmaneuver units and act as a nuke character, but I prefer two mini-nukes instead of one giant one.

2. Saizo: Mostly this is due to trying to level a 3* Saizo and the fact I am far too used to fielding Felicia to handle mages. Saizo is better off handling physical units and needs to have his Smoke Dagger in order to showcase his true potential. I see he can do great things when he has his full arsenal, but until then, Saizo sucks. Currently, I find Matthew to be better than Saizo, but that may be personal bias and I been training Matthew as he was my "sole starter" character. (I sent Viron and Raigh home.)

3. Sophia: Looks like a character I would actually care about, but she is far too slow and for some reason specializes highly in Resistance. Mages typically do not fight other mages, it is better to send in the physicals to rip apart their poor defenses. Also, having a special skill is somewhat muted because Sophia is slow, meaning it won't be activating as often. I tried leveling her during the Hero Rotation, but she was just not performing well for me.

4. 1* or 2* Characters: So I thought it might be a good idea to try leveling a 1* or 2* character to save up on Shards (I plan on using them for 5* merging later waaay down the line.) Leveling these guys are a nightmare, and this includes trying to level up Olivia (who doesn't even gain EXP when dancing!). The characters themselves may not really be that bad, but the subpar stats and limited options definitely do not help their case.
---------------
Otherwise, with the roster I have so far, I won't say anyone sucks outright. It's more about the manner of team composition and using characters that exaggerate each other's strengths or mitigate their weaknesses. For example, Nowi and Adult!Tiki are slow, but when backed up by a healer (and a character that can buff their speed) they perform fairly well as tanks. Ryoma can solo entire teams with the right support, even when against unfavorable odds.

Every character has their place and niche. The problem is that their particular speciality may not be needed or is not general enough to be worth using. Knock Back, as a passive, has its uses, but in most scenarios players want their opponent defeated, not moved around.

[eclipse]

27 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

yeah, hit me up when you stumble upon a mage outtanking your fucking infantries

Does an archer outtanking everyone count?

7 minutes ago, Sire said:

For me...

1. Cecilia: I brought her along for my "Cavalry" Team to fulfill magic damage, but she is a bit slow for my liking. However, I may just be used to speedy characters since I use a +SPD Ryoma extensively and use Marth on a regular basis. Cecilia may be able to outmaneuver units and act as a nuke character, but I prefer two mini-nukes instead of one giant one.

2. Saizo: Mostly this is due to trying to level a 3* Saizo and the fact I am far too used to fielding Felicia to handle mages. Saizo is better off handling physical units and needs to have his Smoke Dagger in order to showcase his true potential. I see he can do great things when he has his full arsenal, but until then, Saizo sucks. Currently, I find Matthew to be better than Saizo, but that may be personal bias and I been training Matthew as he was my "sole starter" character. (I sent Viron and Raigh home.)

3. Sophia: Looks like a character I would actually care about, but she is far too slow and for some reason specializes highly in Resistance. Mages typically do not fight other mages, it is better to send in the physicals to rip apart their poor defenses. Also, having a special skill is somewhat muted because Sophia is slow, meaning it won't be activating as often. I tried leveling her during the Hero Rotation, but she was just not performing well for me.

4. 1* or 2* Characters: So I thought it might be a good idea to try leveling a 1* or 2* character to save up on Shards (I plan on using them for 5* merging later waaay down the line.) Leveling these guys are a nightmare, and this includes trying to level up Olivia (who doesn't even gain EXP when dancing!). The characters themselves may not really be that bad, but the subpar stats and limited options definitely do not help their case.
---------------
Otherwise, with the roster I have so far, I won't say anyone sucks outright. It's more about the manner of team composition and using characters that exaggerate each other's strengths or mitigate their weaknesses. For example, Nowi and Adult!Tiki are slow, but when backed up by a healer (and a character that can buff their speed) they perform fairly well as tanks. Ryoma can solo entire teams with the right support, even when against unfavorable odds.

Every character has their place and niche. The problem is that their particular speciality may not be needed or is not general enough to be worth using. Knock Back, as a passive, has its uses, but in most scenarios players want their opponent defeated, not moved around.

You sent home two of my favorite characters, banned!

Part of playing the game is learning what each unit is good at. Virion is absolutely godly at hamstringing speedy units (or turning sorta-fast units into target practice), and Raigh's skills somehow work despite the fact that he can't decide whether he wants to be a nuke, support, or tank.

I will post pictures, if necessary.

[Rezzy]

9 minutes ago, Sire said:

 

Every character has their place and niche. The problem is that their particular speciality may not be needed or is not general enough to be worth using. Knock Back, as a passive, has its uses, but in most scenarios players want their opponent defeated, not moved around.

True, but some are bad at what their niche should be, like Florina, unless I'm using her wrong.

[Junkhead]

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Does an archer outtanking everyone count?

Archers with actually good Def start being a thing from FE10 onwards, so.

[eclipse]

Just now, Soul~! said:

Archers with actually good Def start being a thing from FE10 onwards, so.

Yes, archers can take hits (thank goodness).  I have an archer whose highest stat is currently Defense - and he's level 39.

[twistedxgrace]

41 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

As much as I like Cecilia, I can't help but want more out of her as a unit. Right now, she's lv. 40 4-stars but stuck with the following stats:

34 HP

42 Atk

23 Spd

17 Def

27 Res

She's slow and physically frail. Even with her Atk and Gronnraven tome, she may struggle to land kills, especially against fliers. She even struggles against enemy mages, especially if they're carrying anti-cavalry tomes (even blue anti-cavalry mages can easily destroy her). Her Spd and Def are bad enough that even with WTA over colorless units, Cecilia can easily be ORKO'd by strong bow users or shuriken users like Takumi or Gaius. The only type of enemy unit she can reliably kill are lance/axe armor knights.

Rally Resistance is pretty nice but it can make next-to-no difference for certain units (ie. Lyn vs. the mounted blue mage in Narcian's hard map).

Out of the units I use very frequently, Cecilia probably has been defeated the most times.

Cecilia is my goddess and my best mage. I love her. Fight me.

My worst is probably Raigh. He is still my only red mage and he isn't that powerful, is one-shotted by most physical enemies, and can rarely take a hit from other magical ones, either. 

As you can see, the best and worst units in this game for someone is based what they are given. For a long time, Cecilia and Oboro (another one of my best units despite being speed screwed) were my only reliable knight killers.

[Seafarer]

59 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Eliwood.

Level 40 4-star and he still gets taken out by Green units.

(I'd love to test him out at 5 stars, but I'll have to wait until the game finally decides to give me some Great Badges, which hasn't happened in over a week.  >_>)

The thing about Eliwood is that he's not a physical tank. I've been using him to laugh in the face of even blue mages, though, and that's at 3*.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Seafarer

[Sire]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Does an archer outtanking everyone count?

You sent home two of my favorite characters, banned!

Part of playing the game is learning what each unit is good at. Virion is absolutely godly at hamstringing speedy units (or turning sorta-fast units into target practice), and Raigh's skills somehow work despite the fact that he can't decide whether he wants to be a nuke, support, or tank.

I will post pictures, if necessary.

I didn't send starter Viron and Raigh home because they sucked, but because of their 2* ranking. I actually like Viron (Don't care much for Raigh though, sorry), but my logic at the time was that I would pull a 3* or 4* version of their characters later. So, why should I keep the 2* versions around?

My little prediction did come to pass, at least for Viron (I pulled a 3* Viron fairly recently). I haven't trained him yet though, my "min-max" nature is getting the better of me and I don't particularly want to train characters that may end up having unwanted Boons & Banes. So, most characters I just train to 20, with only "good characters" and the occasional favorite going past that.

As for why I trained Matthew, he was a personal favorite of mine and I loved using him as a debuffer when I first started. Now being Level 23 at 4* rank, he performs fairly well as a "thief tank" due to his Rogue Dagger.

15 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

True, but some are bad at what their niche should be, like Florina, unless I'm using her wrong.

I see Florina as a support unit instead of a damage one (yet the ones in the Training Tower seem to say otherwise. I met plenty of TT Florinas that nearly ruined my runs, but I do tend to run primarily red teams). Consider her a "flying battle cleric armed with a Heavy Spear" instead of a "Pegasus Knight that is effective against armor with healing abilities."

My reasoning for this is her Ardent Sacrifice and Breath of Life skills, both which are used to heal allies. Darting Blow will help Florina double fast enemies (some mages are fairly quick and it can be useful against physical Reds) while the Heavy Spear is used to finish off units. I don't think Florina is an initiator, but instead is a finisher character after foes are weakened. This goes against the current meta as units that can one-round enemies are far more valuable than simply weakening them.

Now, for your particular case, I am unsure if your Florina happens to have -ATT as a bane or if Florina naturally has lower ATT. As there is no proper documentation on Florina's stats, I'll use Caeda as a comparison since she has an Armorslayer. 5* Caeda's max average ATT is 37. Using that as a basis, subtract 4 due to weapon (Armorslayer+ versus a normal armorslayer) and say another 2 for star rank differences. If Florina has a similar allocation, her max average ATT at 4* may be around 31. Considering 5* characters such as Hector, Effie, and Draug have average DEF values around 35...

TLDR: Florina probably sucks. Unless one really like Florina, there is no real reason to bring her instead of an alternative which is similar to the Tier List's conclusion (Florina is currently ranked #4 from the bottom of Blue Lance users). I find it somewhat funny in Heroes she has a Heavy Lance whereas in Blazing Sword she started out with a Slim Lance, but I digress.

* * * * *

As an aside, I find Armorslayers (and to a lesser extent other effective weapons) suffer from a lack of battle information before the battles start. Ruby, Emerald, Sapphire, +WTA Grey, and Dragonslayer weapons have their uses and can easily be used to their full potential by a simple glance at the map selection before battle (excluding Arenas). To my knowledge, there is no way to determine if there will be enemy Cavalry, Fliers, or Armored units until the battle has started or the map is a Story mission.

Silver Weapons and Brave Weapons will always outclass effective weapons because of how general they are. Special Weapons (typically weapons of main lords, such as Lyn's Sol Katti or the Falchion) are just plain "overpowered" compared to their "normal" counterparts.  Effective weapons are only situationally good, and while they shine during those situations, they are subpar everywhere else. Even then, in the case of Armorslayer units, just bring a mage instead as Armored units tend to have low RES and normally cannot retaliate at range. (Watch as they introduce "Bow" and "Magic" armors next. Heck, even have a "Staff" armor too! Actually, this may be a decent method to "buff" melee Armorslayers and not always rely on magic or ranged chip damage to defeat armored units...)

The Falchion is an exception to the rule as it has high MT, a self heal, and is effective against Dragons. A 16 MT Falchion is far superior to a mere 12 MT Armorslayer+ or even the classic 15 MT Silver Sword+. Even though the effective target is different (Dragon vs Armor), it is still a little ridiculous.

Killer weapons have their own niche and I think they are pretty useful, but it seems the Tier List and overall meta does not put much emphasis on skill activation versus general stat and skill allocation.

TLDR: I really need to stop writing essays. I've been on this post for over an hour, maybe two...

[BANRYU]

Hawkeye, Beruka, Saizo, Roy, Caeda, and Barst.

Got Hawkeye 4* on my first run... he was my only green unit besides Anna for the longest time and consistently died about half the time. Barst (also 4*) was kinda like Hawkeye, slightly better due to his maneuverability skill but worse in combat sooner IIRC.

Beruka came after I'd been using Cherche for most of my second run and is noticeably underwhelming (bad at doubling, relies on her proc for damage making it inconsistent, not anywhere near as tanky as I'd like) by comparison.

Saizo is too slow and weak and his dagger not debugging the actual target kinda hurts his ability to kill stuff. Never found the Smoke Dagger AoE to be worth more than the regular single-target debuff.

Roy has been just generally underwhelming in general for me (got him at 4* so maybe that's it?), and can't really kill anything that isn't green reliably for me. Hits hard enough, but too slow and too frail and just generally not worth using for me so far. Eliwood has been leeeeeagues better for me.

Caeda can't kill shit either, not even armor units. I thought about keeping her around for her Ward Fliers or whatever it was since I have a fair handful of fliers but decided she was just too weak to fit the bill and ditched her after a while of consideration.

Pretty disappointing on the whole. Beruka is the only one I'm keeping just because I like her.

[Sentinel07]

Well, characters that I don't find good so far are:

1. Roy- He's okay stat-wise, but his skills do him no favors. Triangle Adept is not really worth it, and he has no purple special to make up for it.

2. Alfonse- I don't get what they were thinking with him. He really has no defined role. He's not strong enough to one-shot enemies and his speed often guarantees that he'll get double-hit. This wouldn't be so bad if he was a tanky character, but he doesn't have the speed for that.

3. Hana and Fir- Both characters for me seem to suffer the same problem. They play very much like they are in the main games, but I think they're hurt the most by the fact that there is no dodging in this game.

[PuffPuff]

Virion-He suffers terrible Res. When Gordin, Jeorge and Takumi all outclass him in every way possible.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

4 hours ago, eclipse said:

One day, I will figure out Donnel's niche, or I will pull Clarine.  Until then, he's gonna warm his heels on the bench.

I fucking swear there has to be something in the code that's increasing the chances of duplicate units appearing. Clarine is 3 and 4 stars, how have you not pulled her already lol.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I fucking swear there has to be something in the code that's increasing the chances of duplicate units appearing. Clarine is 3 and 4 stars, how have you not pulled her already lol.

Because I pulled Donnel something like four times.  Other amazing notes:

- I STILL have 2 5* units, and I consider myself lucky
- No armors
- No mounted healers, but all the foot ones (I think)
- I think the only dagger user I'm missing is Kagero
- Think of a "good" blue unit.  I probably don't own him/her.  Best one IMO is Shanna, followed by Odin.

The RNG is weird as all hell, and I'm at a serious loss for words.

[Sartek]

1°) Sophia:

She's one of my favorite character in the series, but unfortunately she's downright useless (and I say this despite always training her in FE6). She's so slow she won't be doubling anything other than armors, and everything else will ORKO her, meaning her special will never activate. And to twist the knife, Tharja exist, and show how a good red mage should be.

 

2°) Cecilia:

I love her design, and having advantage over colorless unit is very nice, but the stats just slow her down. I have an atk and spd neutral one and she can only kill blue armors.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Sartek