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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


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31 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If you're going to excuse the class due to hard mode advantages, that's not really justifying the use of class at all. If they weren't fun to use on normal, then they won't be fun to use in hard mode either since you're prone to making use of units with hard mode bonuses anyways in which case, only Shin and Klein would be worth using. Argue how worthy Shin would still end up being bowlocked because in the end, players want units whom they can rely on and since managing snipers is infuriating for most people, why stick with them when there are so many variables that you get? 

Hard is the assumed difficulty in any gameplay discussion of FE6, unless specifically stating otherwise, because that is the more difficult setting.  Basically everything is useable on Normal, except like, Wendy and Sophia maybe.  

Managing Snipers isn't difficult when most combat for your army as a whole is during the player phase.  That is the entire point here.

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And no, I've never used a Sniper but like I said, upon looking at the class and managing to beat them thanks to Ninjas and others, its all eh to me. And honestly, when other classes have too many advantages over the sniper class, i'd wonder why pick the sniper even if they can ignore debuffs?

A class that can consistently kill things from a safe distance, even at WTD because Certain Blow is just that wonderful.  Javelins and the like were pretty heavily nerfed in Fates, which makes this aspect of bows much more appealing.  Bows are also generally much stronger than hidden weapons are as far as pure might goes, adding to their consistency. 

You think that's nothing to offer in a game where attempting to run an enemy phase team will kill you?  

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I don't care about your enemy or player phase argument when the enemies are pathetically weak in the GBA games that you really don't have to use your basic units and can straight off use prepromotes or just buff any unit whether in FE7 or 8. My point is that why should I ever bother to train Rebecca who will take a long time to get any better and is locked to 2 range when I can use better units like Raven who not only has great bases but can literally do more damage than her due to using better weapon types? Even Louise can't be on par with Harken at that matter.

And really, that's also the problem that FE6 has as well. They generally suck and Shin's an exception eventhough he's not a sniper because he has a horse and anything with a horse is good on my book. 

Its really from Echoes onwards that Snipers are actually worthwhile classes to consider usiing because they are balanced better. Not this stupid 2 range lock crap.

Er, again, I don't think we actually disagree on the status of Snipers in FE7/8 beyond your apparent incapability of understanding what is meant by enemy phase oriented game vs a player phase oriented one.  They are indeed bad in those two games.  Weaker enemies make an enemy phase game because when enemies are weak you can just juggernaut your way through the enemy phase.  You just seem to just be ranting for the sake of it.

I wouldn't lump FE7/8 Snipers in with FE6 Snipers, because FE6 enemies being stronger causes most action to occur during player phase when bow units shine.  It's not a player phase game to the same degree as Conquest, but it's still a player phase game.

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You're arguement doesn't matter here because Shin is a nomad and not a sniper. And the only reason he can kill reliably isn't because of him being just bowlocked but rather because of all the things you claim he doesn't need truly needs as maps in FE6 are long? But I'm done here.

This argument makes no sense.  Even reading Jotari's post again I still cannot understand what point you're trying to make.

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13 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you're going to excuse the class due to hard mode advantages, that's not really justifying the use of class at all. If they weren't fun to use on normal, then they won't be fun to use in hard mode either since you're prone to making use of units with hard mode bonuses anyways in which case, only Shin and Klein would be worth using. Argue how worthy Shin would still end up being bowlocked because in the end, players want units whom they can rely on and since managing snipers is infuriating for most people, why stick with them when there are so many variables that you get? 

And no, I've never used a Sniper but like I said, upon looking at the class and managing to beat them thanks to Ninjas and others, its all eh to me. And honestly, when other classes have too many advantages over the sniper class, i'd wonder why pick the sniper even if they can ignore debuffs?

I don't care about your enemy or player phase argument when the enemies are pathetically weak in the GBA games that you really don't have to use your basic units and can straight off use prepromotes or just buff any unit whether in FE7 or 8. My point is that why should I ever bother to train Rebecca who will take a long time to get any better and is locked to 2 range when I can use better units like Raven who not only has great bases but can literally do more damage than her due to using better weapon types? Even Louise can't be on par with Harken at that matter.

And really, that's also the problem that FE6 has as well. They generally suck and Shin's an exception eventhough he's not a sniper because he has a horse and anything with a horse is good on my book. 

Its really from Echoes onwards that Snipers are actually worthwhile classes to consider usiing because they are balanced better. Not this stupid 2 range lock crap.

 

You're arguement doesn't matter here because Shin is a nomad and not a sniper. And the only reason he can kill reliably isn't because of him being just bowlocked but rather because of all the things you claim he doesn't need truly needs as maps in FE6 are long? But I'm done here.

 

My argument is that on player phase it's preferable to attack from two range. That's the specific thing I was responding to. You brought up that Snipers have bad offense since they can't attack from one range without the mini bow in Fates.

And yes, Shin's horse is not the best thing about him, it's certainly welcome but not his best factor (Sue also has a horse and she isn't nearly as good as him). Either doesn't have a horse and yet is still considered the best unit in Binding Blade. Unless the argument is ____ is bad because they can never reach the enemies (onky really applicable to armoured knights in most games) then the horse is irrelevant here.

12 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

So, you decided that Snipers are worthless - you seem to imply in Fates in this particular section - because you could defeat them with Ninjas and other unnamed classes? Which is ignoring that Ninjas is one of the best, if not the best offensive class. Which is ignoring that, yeah, a Sniper can´t stand on the frontline like Effie or heal like Elise or what have you.

 

Honestly, I´d really like to know about all your secret classes that hold ALL THE ADVANTAGES over Sniper. Then again, I was also not aware that Snipers ignore debuffs – the only way to not be debuffed by Throwing Weapons is killing the enemy before they can hit you (which means Player-Phase) and Seal Skills don´t apply when the one equipped with them dies as a result of combat, I think?

 

As for what a Sniper can do for you… have you seen the people complaining about wonky hitrates against Ninjas, wonky hitrates against Kitsune and wonky hitrates against Bosses? Granted these are only examples that come from Conquest. One of the best solutions to these problems, on any difficulty is a reclassed Mozu, because she becomes a strong, fast and real accurate Sniper, EVEN in Attack Stance.

 

What you are referring to isn´t Snipers being good, it´s called a Killer Bow, a Combat Art called Hunters Volley and that´s it.

 

As for TH, it´s Hunters Volley/Point-Blank Volley all over again and the rest of it is called Chip Damage. Feel free to correct me on these two though – I don´t actually know enough about Echoes/TH to have any more than an educated guess.

 

And also Encloser on the longbow. If it weren't for those two weapons non Alm archers in Echoes would have a very hard time contributing meaningfully. Being able to attack from five range isn't all that amazing when you're barely scratching the enemy.

Edited by Jotari
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In the end, Snipers kinda lost my interest until Echoes and the fact remains that there's tons of better units that are better than Snipers even in fates.

 

Edited by Harvey
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On 4/16/2020 at 12:01 PM, Koops said:

Same more or less applies to SwordMasters, in most games. Locked to 1 range but they crit a lot so they can kill often.

I would argue that traditional Sword Masters are in a worse situation. You can use them to deliver the last blow (which is a valid niche, I guess, given their high accuracy), but the combination of average Strength and sword's low-might force them to rely on their Speed to deal enough damage and on their Avoid to survive the encounter.
Now, I am fine with chances and take mine in many situations, but for a Sword Master to shine the game must have enemies with particularly low accuracy or outright crappy statistics. Otherwise, it may be useless on both Player Phase (not enough power) and Enemy Phase (not enough endurance.)

 

16 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Let me ask you something: Have you ever actually used a Sniper in Conquest?  Because a Sniper in Conquest is a delete button.  Basically the best thing you could possibly be in Conquest.

You are wasting your time, mate. It is your knowledge from experience against his ideas and beliefs; he has nothing to back up what he repeats. Your chances of getting something positive out of this argument are very low.

 

13 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

So why can't someone say that Fates flaws in their characters be summed up as the result of them spreading themselves to thin as a result of making each path feel unique in terms of both story and gameplay, something that 3H was not even remotely capable of doing? Even discounting Revelation, there are more unique chapters in BR and CQ combined than there is in all four routes of 3H put together (and this is with CQ and BR also sharing maps). And to make things worse, 3H costs $60, which is the same amount of money you'd pay for BR and CQ combined, so it should have a similar amount of content, instead of artificially bloating itself with reused maps.

I remember reading Etrurian emperor's original message; it made me think about the nature of the missteps in Fates. He has an interesting point, does he not? There are numerous odd elements in Fates which seem deliberate, as if they had had the option the make thinks differently and still chose to favour pandering.
But I agree with you in that Birthright and Conquest have an evident identity, a uniqueness palpable through map design, music, classes, weapons, items, names, aesthetic... The "routes" in Four Houses are carbon copies.
Three House and a Dungeon bores me, but it was a success, both critical and commercial. And it is undeniable that it delivered what a great number of the players were looking for. The sad part about it is that, in hindsight, it does not even seem difficult to achieve.

Edited by starburst
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37 minutes ago, starburst said:

I would argue that traditional Sword Masters are in a worse situation. You can use them to deliver the last blow (which is a valid niche, I guess, given their high accuracy), but the combination of average Strength and sword's low-might force them to rely on their Speed to deal enough damage and on their Avoid to survive the encounter.
Now, I am fine with chances and take mine in many situations, but for a Sword Master to shine the game must have enemies with particularly low accuracy or outright crappy statistics. Otherwise, it may be useless on both Player Phase (not enough power) and Enemy Phase (not enough endurance.)

Which is why they're so good in FE6. Weapons are generally less accurate, so having WTD against lances isn't a big deal for them unless it's a silver lance paladin/wyvern lord, and it's rare to reliably one-round enemies in that game, so SwordMasters suddenly look like they're better at it thanks to their crit bonus.

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53 minutes ago, starburst said:

You are wasting your time, mate. It is your knowledge from experience against his ideas and beliefs; he has nothing to back up what he repeats. Your chances of getting something positive out of this argument are very low.

 

I did have backup and that's the very low amount of snipers you can get + the fact that there are classes that have better skills and advantages. Mozu cavalier > Mozu Sniper for a reason.

 

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43 minutes ago, starburst said:

I would argue that traditional Sword Masters are in a worse situation. You can use them to deliver the last blow (which is a valid niche, I guess, given their high accuracy), but the combination of average Strength and sword's low-might force them to rely on their Speed to deal enough damage and on their Avoid to survive the encounter.
Now, I am fine with chances and take mine in many situations, but for a Sword Master to shine the game must have enemies with particularly low accuracy or outright crappy statistics. Otherwise, it may be useless on both Player Phase (not enough power) and Enemy Phase (not enough endurance.)

 

You are wasting your time, mate. It is your knowledge from experience against his ideas and beliefs; he has nothing to back up what he repeats. Your chances of getting something positive from this argument are very low.

 

I remember reading Etrurian emperor's original message; it made me think about the nature of the missteps in Fates. He has an interesting point, does he not? There are numerous odd elements in Fates which seem deliberate, as if they had had the option the make thinks differently and still chose to favour pandering.
But I agree with you in that Birthright and Conquest have an evident identity, a uniqueness palpable through map design, music, classes, weapons, items, names, aesthetic... The "routes" in Four Houses are carbon copies.
Three House and a Dungeon bores me, but it was a success, both critical and commercial. And it is undeniable that it delivered what a great number of the players were looking for. The sad part about it is that, in hindsight, it does not even seem difficult to achieve.

I think Swordmaster to shine need to be overpower, and the enemies pretty fast, with iffy hitrates and high HP (but with reasonable defense instead of outright busted), because otherwise the Paladin are just going to be better...

That was the perfect storm that allowed Rutger to be one of the best units in FE6; I think the only other game where swordmasters are worth talking about are indoor maps in FE5 (highest movement in indoor maps), and FE10.

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And I agree too with Emperor; Fates suffers of weird priorities in non-gameplay aspects... How the story is handled, how the characters are presented, how the world feels... Fates is amusing, that was my first reaction after finally getting to know the story of the games, and I still feel that way... Fates reminds of some Isekai novel.... but I'm not sure which one hahahaha.

Sometimes I feel like Three Houses it was designed to be an anti-Fates in several aspects... the game still has its sexy stuff, but compared with Fates it feels so... different.

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10 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I think Swordmaster to shine need to be overpower, and the enemies pretty fast, with iffy hitrates and high HP (but with reasonable defense instead of outright busted), because otherwise the Paladin are just going to be better...

That was the perfect storm that allowed Rutger to be one of the best units in FE6; I think the only other game where swordmasters are worth talking about are indoor maps in FE5 (highest movement in indoor maps), and FE10.

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And I agree too with Emperor; Fates suffers of weird priorities in non-gameplay aspects... How the story is handled, how the characters are presented, how the world feels... Fates is amusing, that was my first reaction after finally getting to know the story of the games, and I still feel that way... Fates reminds of some Isekai novel.... but I'm not sure which one hahahaha.

Sometimes I feel like Three Houses it was designed to be an anti-Fates in several aspects... the game still has its sexy stuff, but compared with Fates it feels so... different.

I think Three Houses utterly fails in it's endevour to be both political and philosophical, but it is attempting to be a more mature game than Fates and that's something I can very much appreciate.

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1 hour ago, Troykv said:

Sometimes I feel like Three Houses it was designed to be an anti-Fates in several aspects... the game still has its sexy stuff, but compared with Fates it feels so... different.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

When you look at the design philosophies over every other FE, Fates is the one that looks/feels different. Three Houses doesn't seem as different when compared to Radiant Dawn.

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5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

When you look at the design philosophies over every other FE, Fates is the one that looks/feels different. Three Houses doesn't seem as different when compared to Radiant Dawn.

Oh, I'm not saying Three Houses is more or less special, is about the contrast betweent the two most recent mainline games (outside of remakes/Heroes)... Three Houses is definitely more similar to Radiant Dawn, but damn the contrast with Fates it's so outrageous at times xD.

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Sometimes I feel like Three Houses it was designed to be an anti-Fates in several aspects... the game still has its sexy stuff, but compared with Fates it feels so... different.

I was specfiically comparing Three Houses and Fates, everyone had Fates as an expectation as far as I remember.

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7 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I was specfiically comparing Three Houses and Fates, everyone had Fates as an expectation as far as I remember.

I know, I just thought it was odd to directly compare it to Fates, since you were saying that it seemed like FETH was designed to deliberately be an answer to Fates.

I just see it as FETH being designed as another entry in the series, and wasn't directed to take aim at Fates at all. The only FE we know had a direct impact on the design philosophy of FETH was Genealogy.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just tired and didn't realize I was repeating some of the stuff you already said in my first post.

Edited by Slumber
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2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I know, I just thought it was odd to bring up Fates, since you were saying that it seemed like FETH was designed to deliberately be an answer to Fates.

I just see it as FETH being designed as another entry in the series, and wasn't directed to take aim at Fates at all. The only FE we know had a direct impact on the design philosophy of FETH was Genealogy.

Well Fates obviously did have a design impact on with the whole multiple routes thing. If it really was setting out to be the anti Fates then it probably would have been one house. Multiple routes is kind of a big deal in Fates, it's what the game is named after.

Edited by Jotari
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Just now, Jotari said:

Well Fates obviously did have a design impact on with the whole multiple routes thing. If it really was setting out to be the anti Fates then it probably would have been one house.

True, but I just chalked that up to Fire Emblem's tendency to take a previous entry's mechanics and tweak them.

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2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

True, but I just chalked that up to Fire Emblem's tendency to take a previous entry's mechanics and tweak them.

So in other words, a direct impact on the design philosophy. While we're at it Shadows of Valentia obviously had a very big influence on Three Houses. If that game wasn't made then the existence of Divine Pulse, Combat Arts and natural magic would be in question. 

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

So in other words, a direct impact on the design philosophy. While we're at it Shadows of Valentia obviously had a very big influence on Three Houses. If that game wasn't made then the existence of Divine Pulse, Combat Arts and natural magic would be in question. 

I feel like it's pretty clear we weren't really talking about the gameplay design, and more about aesthetics, tone, writing, setting, etc.

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13 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I know, I just thought it was odd to directly compare it to Fates, since you were saying that it seemed like FETH was designed to deliberately be an answer to Fates.

I just see it as FETH being designed as another entry in the series, and wasn't directed to take aim at Fates at all. The only FE we know had a direct impact on the design philosophy of FETH was Genealogy.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just tired and didn't realize I was repeating some of the stuff you already said in my first post.

I think is the vibe the games gives me (Their priorities basically)... And I'm not saying Three Houses was created as an anti-Fates, but it can feel like one, in part becuase of what do you said to be fair xD.

I think it's important to consider the perspective of someone that arrived with Awakening or Fates... they felt this quite differently.

Edited by Troykv
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52 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I feel like it's pretty clear we weren't really talking about the gameplay design, and more about aesthetics, tone, writing, setting, etc.

 Guilty on Shadows of Valentia, I was talking more gameplay there, but the multiple route split is like a semi narrative semi game play design choice. Both Fates and Three Houses revolve around warring factions upon which you choose a side which determines the outcome.

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1 hour ago, Troykv said:

I think is the vibe the games gives me (Their priorities basically)... And I'm not saying Three Houses was created as an anti-Fates, but it can feel like one, in part becuase of what do you said to be fair xD.

I think it's important to consider the perspective of someone that arrived with Awakening or Fates... they felt this quite differently.

I get the feeling that the rise of mobile RPGs in Japan between 2012 and 2015 probably had an impact on how Fates was designed. If I could really sum up the tone of Fates, it felt like I was playing a gacha without the gacha

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5 hours ago, Slumber said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

When you look at the design philosophies over every other FE, Fates is the one that looks/feels different. Three Houses doesn't seem as different when compared to Radiant Dawn.

I can't say I really I agree with that. The characters (especially the lords) are a massive departure from what you usually see in the series. 

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14 hours ago, Koops said:

Which is why they're so good in FE6. Weapons are generally less accurate, so having WTD against lances isn't a big deal for them unless it's a silver lance paladin/wyvern lord, and it's rare to reliably one-round enemies in that game, so SwordMasters suddenly look like they're better at it thanks to their crit bonus.

 

14 hours ago, Troykv said:

That was the perfect storm that allowed Rutger to be one of the best units in FE6; I think the only other game where swordmasters are worth talking about are indoor maps in FE5 (highest movement in indoor maps), and FE10.

And I agree with both of you, even though my experience of FE6 is limited. Sword Masters required design decisions to shine. Under typical circumstances, one would prefer a different class.
It is my opinion that the greatest problem of traditional Snipers has been the units themselves rather than the class. This is, people complain first about how crappy these units are, and being a Sniper is just the last straw.

 

12 hours ago, DukeBox said:

Did everyone forget you can capture units in FE14? you can have an entire army of archers in conquest if you want, even some with cool skills like counter and poison strike.

And very early! There are interesting Snipers in Chapters 9 and 11 already.
I have never completed a campaign with a single generic, though. Their growths were nothing special and it was better to replace them with more powerful Snipers some chapters later.

 

12 hours ago, Troykv said:

I was specfiically comparing Three Houses and Fates, everyone had Fates as an expectation as far as I remember.

And I think that this comparison has granted Four Houses gratuitous rating.

Allow me to explain: 4H is a good game, no contest about it. And yet, none of its elements is groundbreaking. Story, characters, gameplay, music, presentation... are all decent or at least average elements, while others, like performance, are actually below average. But the final product is good; great, actually, according to sales and reviews.
Now, when some of those elements, like story and supports, are compared to those of Fates, they suddenly (and with reason) look outstanding. For any passable story looks like the next Nobel of Literature when compared to the unforgivable mess that was Fates. However, when all those elements are contrasted with other franchises, they are average, decent at best.

Furthermore, I believe that it would take less effort to elevate the weakest elements of Fates to the level of 4H, than it would take to elevate the elements of 4H to the level of the greatest elements of Fates (like uniqueness of the routes, map design, or performance and presentation [relative to its own system.])

Edited by starburst
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On 4/14/2020 at 11:44 AM, EchoTheGecko said:

Echos is overrated, the story screws over celica to make alm do no wrong and the gameplay is so unfun it was a struggle to complete. I never wanted to quite a fire emblem game before finishing other than revelations (for different reasons) so if you are on par with revelations in me not wanting to finish it you know there is something wrong 

Couldn't agree more. I really did not have fun with Echoes much at all. People say that its story is good, but I really don't think it is. It's infuriating how awful Celica is treated when compared to Alm. It's honestly my least favorite Fire Emblem game.

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13 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

The same could be said of RD. 

By RD I assume you mean Micaiah, but even she is mostly following the command of Pelleas (and well, Lekain) and knows full well that what she's doing is wrong but does it anyway out of loyalty to Daein. I'd say she's more similar to Conquest Corrin in that regard. While Edelgard starts a war mostly by her self and also completely believes that what she's doing will be for Fodlan's benefit

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15 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

By RD I assume you mean Micaiah, but even she is mostly following the command of Pelleas (and well, Lekain) and knows full well that what she's doing is wrong but does it anyway out of loyalty to Daein. I'd say she's more similar to Conquest Corrin in that regard. While Edelgard starts a war mostly by her self and also completely believes that what she's doing will be for Fodlan's benefit

No I meant both Tellius lords are quite different from the rest. Ike wasn't royalty so his story is not that of a typical FE royal. I don't see how following the commands of Pelleas does not make her different from other FE lords. Unlike them, she's the retainer while the other FE lords have retainers.  

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