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So, having just about beaten this game, I am indeed pleased at all the obvious love that went into it.  It didn't have a lot of the silly things that dragged Awakening and Fates down, had a lot of neat mechanics changes, made fantastic use of the secondary characters (for example, May, Boey, and Saber remaining relevant all the way to the very end), GREATLY expanded the story and dialogue, had wonderful voice acting...it was a treat.  So before I go into the things I miss, I wanted to make it clear that I still consider this to be a good remake.

 

That said...I'm someone who also really liked the NES version, in-spite of all it's flaws.  And while this remake was great in it's own way, I felt there were a lot of little things that I missed.  I'm only going to cover the atmosphere, this time, as this post ended up being WAY longer than I thought it would be.  But, I'll get into other nitpicks in the future.  For now, here's just the atmosphere.

Number 1: Atmosphere

One of the things that always stuck out to me about Gaiden was just how...bleak it was.  From the minute you start, to the very end, the tone is generally very somber and tragic.  Where the remake feels like you're trying to prevent bad things from happening...the original felt like the bad stuff had already happened. 

Part of the whole point of this game (and why Celica was so willing to offer herself to Jedah) was because the world was on the brink of dying.  The land was dark and ominous, the literal dead were walking the Earth, and the soundtrack was EXTREMELY depressing (with only a handful of "positive" tunes in there).  Celica's decision to sacrifice herself to Duma wasn't because she was naive and stupid (as you'll recall, she asks him WHY she should believe what he says).  It was her believing that the whole world was dying. If she did nothing, everyone and everything in the world would die (as far as she knew).  She wasn't stupid, she was desperate; and Jedah actually did a really good job of playing upon that (seriously, props to the writing team; these characters were really well-written).

In any case, the original Gaiden did a WAY better job of selling me on just how desperate things were.  The villages were a lot emptier, the color palette was significantly darker...

Fire-Emblem-Valentia-15.jpg

fe2ch3pt4img0530_stitch.png

...The characters weren't nearly as handsome and well-groomed as they are in Echoes...

latest?cb=20170713145306

berkut-fire-emblem-heroes-79.1.jpg

...and the soundtrack was generally a lot more depressing.  There were a lot of new songs composed for this remake; and many of them were a lot cheerier and/or relaxing than the original songs.  And even some of the original songs that were used were radically changed and/or used less frequently.  For example, compare this...

Village Theme (Echoes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkAjHxLKTfE

A fairly neutral piece of mood music that's just kind of...there.  It's not CHEERY or anything, but it's relaxing enough that you feel safe and confident.  The grass is green (even in the supposedly "baren" Rigel Empire), the houses are standing, the sky is blue...you're feeling pretty good.  The GAIDEN music, on the other hand...

Village Theme (Gaiden): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGg97xkg4DQ

Yeah.  IMMEDIATELY, it sets this somber, outright oppressive atmosphere.  It's depressing, and extremely monotonous.  However, it's monotonous in a good way.  Alm's argument with Mycen, as well as Lukas' speech about how desperate things are, hit a lot harder with this song droning in the background. 

And that isn't the only time it's used, either.  It is used in every village you come across in the original game, save for the Sage's Hamlet and both port towns.  Every village you come across is supposed to be in a state of desperation; and the original song reflects that a lot better.

That said, Echoes DOES use this song once.  Though, sadly...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io2yXqWVa4g

It now sounds a lot more uplifting; as this has been turned into Alm's triumphant "I'm going to rise up and join the army!" theme.  Still would've at least worked well for Lukas' recruitment speech, at least...but still missing the sense of despair the original had (to me, at least).

The other town theme (the one that played for the aforementioned port towns and Sage's Hamlet) is also the same way.  In Gaiden, you feel very...emotional, when you hear it.

Encounter (Gaiden): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hj0eM_YkuA

Like, the characters themselves are happy...but they're happy in the context of a world of tears.  The song is just as much sad as it is happy; being played as the recruitment theme AND the theme that plays when random villagers are talking about how many people Barth and Grieth have slaughtered.  Like, the way the song is cheery, but desolate at the same time.  The characters are smiling, but they're smiling in the face of unspeakable pain (or so it sounds to me).

The Echoes version, on the other hand, is just happy through and through.

Encounter (Echoes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXF8HFGRvgU

And it IS great, don't get me wrong!  I love the way it's used in the Remakes, too!  I just wish they had maybe...I dunno, constructed two different versions of it.  Maybe the above piece could have been the "holy cow, Est has been reunited with her sisters!!" theme, and the other could be the "port town of sad and lonely people" variation.

And finally, there's "Celica Map 2/The Sacrifice and the Saint".  Once again, this is the case where I like what they did with the remake...but still wish they had found a way to recapture the mood of the original.

The Sacrifice and the Saint (Gaiden): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCAfEHiuI6E

Now, instead of playing exclusively as Celica's "Chapter 4 Battle Music", this was, instead, the "Victory" theme.  The theme that played whenever there was only one enemy left, in ALL Celica battles.  In a vacuum, it's obviously not as well composed as the remake.  But, it DOES do a better job of supporting that aforementioned "oppressive atmosphere".  It's faintly triumphant, but it also sounds desperate at the same time.  Like, the characters are winning, but, it's just one step in the long, LONG ordeal that Celica has ahead of her.  She's won the fight, but she's still got the entire war ahead of her. 

But the Remake...

The Sacrifice and the Saint (Echoes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxI9G3v-n4o

Well, it works fantastically as an endgame battle theme.  But, once again, it is WAY more triumphant and hopeful than the original.  And that's something I find regrettable.  Had they kept that same sense of despair throughout the whole game, it would have made Celica's decision to sacrifice herself to Duma make a little more sense.  It wouldn't have been smart, necessarily...but I could totally buy her just being really desperate to save her dying world.

Edited by FionordeQuester

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It's extremely small (but that's what the topics about), and despite having never having gotten past the first chapter when trying out the original game on an emulator, I have read a let's play on the game (twice) when I was researching the original game after Echoes was announced.

In order to complete chapter 3, both Alm and Celica have to open the floodgate. On Celica's side, there is a guard that you talk to first. Here's what he says:

I'm the guard of this floodgate. What? You want me to open it? No can do. Only the Sofian royal family can order this gate opened. I ain't listening to you!

Hmm? Wait a sec... That crown...! That's the royal family's crest! Then you must be the long-lost Princess Anteze! F-forgive my rudeness. I'll open the floodgate straightaway.

Your Highness, the western floodgate must also be open to drain the water.

Considering that most of the people you converse with outside of story or recruitment have generic NES dialogue, this stood out for me. Sure, it's not much, but it was different enough from the rest of the game's dialogue to catch me off guard. It also helped that my imagination pictured this guy as a gruff, yet faithful soldier who was genuinely saddened by the death of the royal family, and that his job was now moot. As I said, it's small, but I miss it nonetheless.

 

Also, I thought that the Cliff in the original game gave off the impression of being a "inexperienced, but a fast learner" kind of character. I'm fine with the characterization of Kliff in Echoes, but I do forget he's supposed to be the "starts off weak, but grows quickly" kind of character.

 

Also, where's the "Don't worry Celcia. I'll crush these bastards!" line!?

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Guest Dreamyboi

You make some really great points here in regards to the soundtrack, although I think there is a track in the game that captures the "oppressive atmosphere" vibe well although only partially.

A Song for Bygone Days (or known in Gaiden as "Land of Sorrow"): 

I. LOVE. THIS. TRACK.

It's one of my favorites in the whole game, right up there with "Fell God's Tempest."

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3 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

It's extremely small (but that's what the topics about), and despite having never having gotten past the first chapter when trying out the original game on an emulator, I have read a let's play on the game (twice) when I was researching the original game after Echoes was announced.

In order to complete chapter 3, both Alm and Celica have to open the floodgate. On Celica's side, there is a guard that you talk to first. Here's what he says:

I'm the guard of this floodgate. What? You want me to open it? No can do. Only the Sofian royal family can order this gate opened. I ain't listening to you!

Hmm? Wait a sec... That crown...! That's the royal family's crest! Then you must be the long-lost Princess Anteze! F-forgive my rudeness. I'll open the floodgate straightaway.

Your Highness, the western floodgate must also be open to drain the water.

Considering that most of the people you converse with outside of story or recruitment have generic NES dialogue, this stood out for me. Sure, it's not much, but it was different enough from the rest of the game's dialogue to catch me off guard. It also helped that my imagination pictured this guy as a gruff, yet faithful soldier who was genuinely saddened by the death of the royal family, and that his job was now moot. As I said, it's small, but I miss it nonetheless.

The old man you talk to for opening the floodgate does actually have dialogue more to that effect if you try to get him to do it prior to Celica's promotion in Echoes (that said, he's hardly a soldier now, and he won't recognize Celica as Anthiese until she's crowned)

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8 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

The old man you talk to for opening the floodgate does actually have dialogue more to that effect if you try to get him to do it prior to Celica's promotion in Echoes (that said, he's hardly a soldier now, and he won't recognize Celica as Anthiese until she's crowned)

I guess I forgot to say that I wish he didn't have the generic "old man" portrait used for him. That's probably my biggest gripe with echoes presentation wise; nearly every single commoner and soldier design is reused, and it's extremely noticeable due to the quality of the art. When the old man at the floodgate is the same old man that gave Celica a ride in his boat is the same old man that asks for wine in Ram village, moments like these loose their impact.

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Guest Dreamyboi
3 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I guess I forgot to say that I wish he didn't have the generic "old man" portrait used for him. That's probably my biggest gripe with echoes presentation wise; nearly every single commoner and soldier design is reused, and it's extremely noticeable due to the quality of the art. When the old man at the floodgate is the same old man that gave Celica a ride in his boat is the same old man that asks for wine in Ram village, moments like these loose their impact.

There are a lot of things with the presentation that feel like missed opportunities really, even if Echoes is the best 3DS FE game presentation-wise. The bleakness of Zofia and Rigels situation is never really shown, it's just told and we're supposed to believe it. The description of what is happening doesn't match what we see so the tone feels a little inconsistent. Hell one guy in Rigel has a thriving grape-field despite the """harsh lands""", though stuff like that is more of a worldbuilding gripe. When I saw that one shot of Alm standing over a dried up field full of gravestones and a castle in the distance during the opening that got me hyped to see how they were going to portray the drought and food shortage and then I play the game and not only does it not do this but the game practically spoon-feeds you food items.

Then again I guess when you let your imagination run wild with speculation on datamined info taken out of context you're basically setting yourself up for disappointment, I really should just write my own SRPG in the future so I can stop complaining about things not going my way.

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It’s been ages so my memory is fuzzy, but the one thing I didn’t really like was Alm’s redesign.  I liked the square jawed kid with the big forehead.

I never really got the feeling of bleak and empty in the villages or even the color palette being darker - I chalk that up to “that’s how everything just looked in the 8bit era.”  Villages in DQ, and FF were similarly small and colored so it’s understandable they would be exactly large enough for the story hits, a few atmospheric NPC’s and nothing else.  As far as the world building gripes like the inconsistencies between the situation everyone says is going on and what they show - that was totally a problem in the original and the remake only emphasized it.

Edited by Bubba Jones

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Guest Dreamyboi
1 hour ago, Bubba Jones said:

As far as the world building gripes like the inconsistencies between the situation everyone says is going on and what they show - that was totally a problem in the original and the remake only emphasized it.

Seriously? It's a shame they didn't fix that.

Edited by Dreamyboi

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2 hours ago, Bubba Jones said:

I never really got the feeling of bleak and empty in the villages or even the color palette being darker - I chalk that up to “that’s how everything just looked in the 8bit era.”  Villages in DQ, and FF were similarly small and colored so it’s understandable they would be exactly large enough for the story hits, a few atmospheric NPC’s and nothing else.  As far as the world building gripes like the inconsistencies between the situation everyone says is going on and what they show - that was totally a problem in the original and the remake only emphasized it.

A lot of NES RPG's and the like feel pretty empty to me, precisely for how minimalistic everything was.  But in the case of Gaiden, that worked in it's favor.  It was SUPPOSED to feel pretty empty.

As for the world building, I...think the original was at least better about it.  At least, it wasn't bad enough that I registered there being a problem until Echoes emphasized said problem.  With Gaiden, I just went along with it without question.  But with Echoes, that's when I noticed "wait a minute...there's a lot of 'tell, don't show' going on here". 

Edited by FionordeQuester

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3 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

A lot of NES RPG's and the like feel pretty empty to me, precisely for how minimalistic everything was.  But in the case of Gaiden, that worked in it's favor.  It was SUPPOSED to feel pretty empty.

As for the world building, I...think the original was at least better about it.  At least, it wasn't bad enough that I registered there being a problem until Echoes emphasized said problem.  With Gaiden, I just went along with it without question.  But with Echoes, that's when I noticed "wait a minute...there's a lot of 'tell, don't show' going on here". 

I dunno, I never got the impression that Gaiden was supposed to be a empty game. A dark game yes (it still amazes me that an NES game managed successfully include regicide, patricide, and child murder, without it coming off), but not a bleak one. Different interpretations, I suppose.

At least in the remake the game makes it clear when you're fighting Zofian forces and when you're fighting Rigel, as well as why. Honestly, I like the detail that Rigel recently invaded northern Zofia after the latter's king didn't keep his end of the deal (and yes, I do know that Rigel sent support for Desaix's coup in both games, which "unintentionally" got them involved in a total war). That being said, I do agree that that the game rely's more on 'tell, don't show' than it should, even though I still enjoy the games story overall.

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1 hour ago, Hawkwing said:

I dunno, I never got the impression that Gaiden was supposed to be a empty game. A dark game yes (it still amazes me that an NES game managed successfully include regicide, patricide, and child murder, without it coming off), but not a bleak one. Different interpretations, I suppose.

Maybe not for most of Chapter 1.  However, once you get to the Liberation HQ...

Python said:

This is the secret base of the liberation forces.
Suspicious characters aren’t allowed to pass.
Eh, you’re new recruits? In that case, head on into the room inside.
But be careful, demons show up in the caves.

That's when you first get the impression "ok, something is seriously wrong here".  Think about it...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) There are literal zombies walking the Earth.

2) Eastern Zofia, apparently, has had SO many people die, that you literally CAN'T go to the Priory or to the Mountain Village without walking through literal graveyards.  Kind of like if you had to drive through a 5 mile graveyard every time you wanted to go to School.  It's just become a fact of life that "yeah, you're gonna have to dodge some zombies along the way; what can you do?"

3) Every other word out of the NPC's mouths seem to be about how dread pirate Barth is ruling the seas, and has killed a bunch of their families.  Or about how Grieth rules over the entire desert, and has taken a bunch of people as slaves.  Or about how Desaix/Jerome regularly loots and pillages their own villages.  

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If nothing else, I can't think of a single Fire Emblem where things were THAT dire.  They had dark stuff of their own, sure (especially Genealogy); but Gaiden/Echoes is one hostile takeover away from becoming "The Walking Dead: Valentia Edition" all over again.  

Edited by FionordeQuester

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I dunno if I buy your interpretation of the soundtracks. To me the tracks in SoV still sound somber when they need to. I can sort of see what you mean about the towns seeming too cheery since the world is supposed to be dying, but I still felt like Valentia was bleaker than other worlds while playing SoV. I also agree with your view on Celica's tempting. It wasn't done well in the remake.

Some points I've seen mentioned as negatives in the remake and that I agree with are Alm being more "goody two shoes" and Rudolf getting aged up. I would've liked Alm to be more like Hector or Ephraim to contrast more with Celica and to better show that they balance each other out.

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Off the top of my head:

* Dread Fighters not having the ability to halve all magic damage, thus making them less OP.

* Speed Ring giving 5 movement thus giving Baron/General characters something to do.

* Warp having unlimited range.

* Gradivus and Sol not having their damage decreased while their weight was increased.

* Astra being a Lance, SOV had enough OP swords already.

* Most Characters having low strength and defense, thus giving a little bit of reason for Barons/Generals.

Portrait_rudolf_fe02.pngPortrait_massena_fe02.png

* Rudolf and some of the bosses(like Massena) original designs.

* Seazas

 

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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Guest Dreamyboi
1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Maybe not for most of Chapter 1.  However, once you get to the Liberation HQ...

That's when you first get the impression "ok, something is seriously wrong here".  Think about it...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) There are literal zombies walking the Earth.

2) Eastern Zofia, apparently, has had SO many people die, that you literally CAN'T go to the Priory or to the Mountain Village without walking through literal graveyards.  Kind of like if you had to drive through a 5 mile graveyard every time you wanted to go to School.  It's just become a fact of life that "yeah, you're gonna have to dodge some zombies along the way; what can you do?"

3) Every other word out of the NPC's mouths seem to be about how dread pirate Barth is ruling the seas, and has killed a bunch of their families.  Or about how Grieth rules over the entire desert, and has taken a bunch of people as slaves.  Or about how Desaix/Jerome regularly loots and pillages their own villages.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If nothing else, I can't think of a single Fire Emblem where things were THAT dire.  They had dark stuff of their own, sure (especially Genealogy); but Gaiden/Echoes is one hostile takeover away from becoming "The Walking Dead: Valentia Edition" all over again.  

Call me an edgelord but I'd love a Valentia remake with THAT kind of tone.

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Gonna go into Part 2 of the small things I miss.  But first...gonna respond to some posts I didn't before.

On 3/22/2018 at 6:28 PM, Hawkwing said:

It's extremely small (but that's what the topics about)...

Exactly!  The thing you mentioned is entirely keeping with the theme of this thread!

On 3/22/2018 at 6:51 PM, Dreamyboi said:

You make some really great points here in regards to the soundtrack, although I think there is a track in the game that captures the "oppressive atmosphere" vibe well although only partially...

Aw, thanks a ton.  

Now then...this next one is going to be controversial.  Mainly because a good deal of what I'm about to complain about is just as much my fault as it is the game's.  I'm a powergamer and OCD perfectionist.  My idea of "fun" is beating the game as quickly and efficiently as possible.  Therefore...

The following complaints that really only apply to me.  I'm FULLY willing to admit that!

With that said, I miss..

 

Number 2: The Importance of Raising Your Non-Lord Units

Now, I've played Gaiden AND Echoes.  Even considered doing a Speed Run playthrough of Gaiden, once!  And as someone who thinks of himself as a pretty pro player of Gaiden, I can definitely say that Gaiden has some of the worst balancing isssues of any Fire Emblem in the series.  I'll even say that Echoes managed to fix some of the more obscene elements from Gaiden.  The Angel Ring no longer doubles all stat gains, Warp can no longer teleport your anywhere you want to, and the Falcon Knights were radically nerfed from how broken they were in the original game...

Falcon Knight Base Stats (Gaiden) said:

40 HP, 15 STR, 1 SKL, 5 SPD, 0 LCK, 12 DEF,

Attack is DOUBLED Against All Terrors

Falcon Knight Base Stats (Echoes) said:

34 HP, 10 STR, 7 SKL, 12 SPD, 0 LCK, 10 DEF, 

Attack is Only Increased by +10 Against Terrors

However, there are three things they made WAY worse in Echoes...

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1) Alm and Celica level up SIGNIFICANTLY faster than they ever did in the NES version (lest you played on Easy Mode)

2) Alm and Celica now have instant access to whatever items they want, as well as a virtually bottomless supply of healing items.

3) Perhaps most importantly, Celica was made WAY too strong compared to how she was in Gaiden

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How strong was Celica made, you may ask?  Well, in Gaiden (Normal Mode), she leveled up slowly enough that you could only get her to...LVL 12, I want to say?  If you were to solo all of Chapter 2 with her?  Well, in this version, she can easily get all the way up to LVL 20 if she solos Act 2.  And while these were her growths in Gaiden...

Celica Growth Rates (Gaiden) said:

30% HP, 25% STR, 40% SKL, 30% SPD, 40% LCK, 20% DEF, 0% RES

THESE are her growths in Echoes...

Celica Growth Rates (Echoes) said:

50% HP, 60% STR, 50% SKL, 50% SPD, 45% LCK, 35% DEF, 4% RES

That's...a pretty huge fricken difference!  Especially in a game that's still mostly balanced around enemies having their Gaiden stats (Hard Mode doesn't seem to increase enemy stats by that much)!  Where Echoes Celica is strong enough to solo every fight in the game (Coral Ring + Mage Ring for Mire and Death, and Blessed Sword for Terrors), Gaiden Celica needs to be supported by a small, elite group of fighters.  Said fighters were...

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1) Jenny (amazing support unit with Physic, could OHKO most monsters with Expel, and could even become a competent fighter with some Angel Ring usage)

2) Saber (gives Celica much needed support in her early chapters; and promoted into a pretty competent Dread Fighter)

3) Catria and Palla (broken, as I mentioned before; also the only units that could easily cross terrain.  You couldn't skip turns like you could in Echoes, so their stats and mobility were downright mandatory for clearing the game with any kind of efficiency)

4) Sonia (amazingly powerful magic user; perfect candidate for the Mage Ring)

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What's more, the "Entombed" monsters were no stronger than "Zombies" in Gaiden; leveling up at the Mountain Graveyard was a snap when you knew how to do it.  But in Echoes, you had to be very careful.  The Entombed had very high Attack stats; and the Zombies around them could poison you.  Nobody could safely fight them unless you had already been raising them well beforehand.  With Falcon Knights being nerfed, and terrain no longer being a big deal (just turn "Skip Turns" on; problem solved), grinding your units up became too much risk for too little reward.  Better to just solo everything with Celica (again, Mire and Death are the only things that can really kill her, even on Hard Mode).

Alm.......

...

Well, ok, he was pretty busted in Gaiden, too.  Keep him at LVL 4 or lower until Chapter 3, hand down the Angel Ring to him, maybe reset on a few of his early levels if he isn't getting Power and/or Defense.  Give him most of the kills in Act 3 so he can get to LVL 20 before promoting in Act 4.  Hand down the Silver Bow afterwards, and he becomes the Valentia equivalent of Chuck Norris.

Still...he did at least appreciate help in the early portions of his journey.  You generally wanted...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) Grey and Tobin as Mages (to kill the Mercenary in "Ram Valley", as well as one of the archers in the "Southern Outpost"

2) Cliff as the early game beat-stick (that way, you can keep Alm as low-level as possible until he got the Angel Ring)

3) Silk (Warp had unlimited range.  Hence, she could send Cliff and Alm to wherever the heck they wanted to)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if you were doing a "no perma deaths" playthrough, Alm ALSO really appreciated...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) Jenny (I always killed her off on purpose in the 1st Duma Tower fight; that way, Alm could revive her.  Have her use Expel during all three of the mandatory Dragon Zombie fights; otherwise, it's almost impossible to keep everyone alive)

5) Tatiana (Two Warp + Physic users made keeping units alive easier, since you couldn't just leave Units out like you could in Echoes)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But in Echoes...all that has become either unnecessary, or impossible.  Warp got nerfed, the Angel Ring no longer gives double stat gains, Alm's growths were buffed enough that the Angel Ring isn't needed ANYWAY, and you could usually just...not bring anyone BUT Alm into his fights.  Doing "no deaths" became a lot easier, that way.  Alm doesn't get 1-5 Range anymore, sure...but you could make up for that.  Just give him Jedah's Dragon Shield (easily winnable from Jedah in Echoes) and a forged Longbow (easily forged from a Steel Bow), and he'll be fine.

So in conclusion, I miss the way I needed to use other people besides Alm and Celica.  Granted, most of what I just said is more due to some of Gaiden's horrible game design than anything else...but it still, ultimately, made it necessary to use at least a few more units than I would have needed, otherwise.  Echoes, on the other hand... Well, between the Convoy, the upgrades growth rates, the nerfed Falcon Knights + Angel Ring, the new items (like the Coral Ring), and all the little quality-of-life improvements that Echoes introduced...there was never any need to USE anyone else!!

It is actually FASTER to just solo the entire game with Alm and Celica; even on Hard Mode!

So...that's my two cents.  This, and my earlier discussion about the tone and atmosphere, are the only real things I missed from Gaiden.  Like I said, this game is far and away the superior product.  Just thought it would be fun to write this!  So what do you all think?

Edited by FionordeQuester

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Okay, so after you defeat Rudolf in Echoes, you can talk to a few soldiers. There responses are awkwards and nervous.

Soldier: L-long live His Excellency Rudolf II!

Archer: …Welcome home, Prince Albein!

But compare that to how the soldiers respond to Alm in Gaiden.

A single row of soldiers, all proudly shouting loud: Their response immediately makes the culture of Rigel apparent. The soldiers have absolute faith in their leader and have no objections or reservations about the man who defeated their leader, showing the value they place on strength.

Men: Long live Emperor Rudolf the Second!

Their response immediately makes the culture of Rigel apparent. The soldiers have absolute faith in their leader and have no objections or reservations about the man who defeated their leader, showing the value they place on strength.

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Guest Dreamyboi
56 minutes ago, RJWalker said:

Okay, so after you defeat Rudolf in Echoes, you can talk to a few soldiers. There responses are awkwards and nervous.

Soldier: L-long live His Excellency Rudolf II!

Archer: …Welcome home, Prince Albein!

But compare that to how the soldiers respond to Alm in Gaiden.

A single row of soldiers, all proudly shouting loud: Their response immediately makes the culture of Rigel apparent. The soldiers have absolute faith in their leader and have no objections or reservations about the man who defeated their leader, showing the value they place on strength.

Men: Long live Emperor Rudolf the Second!

Their response immediately makes the culture of Rigel apparent. The soldiers have absolute faith in their leader and have no objections or reservations about the man who defeated their leader, showing the value they place on strength.

Good eye.

I totally missed this.

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I'm in complete and total agreement with the OP and I didn't even know it until I just read it (also agree with @Dreamyboi about the post chapter 4 theme). I recently just played through Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light, and I don't think the tone of that soundtrack was half as bleak as Gaiden's. I kind of wish this thread could be solely about the atmosphere. But since the question was asked.

*Rudolf lacks a mustache. This makes him inherently inferior to Gaiden Rudolf.

*Draco Zombies. I hate the Draco Zombies in Echoes. They're far too small! In Gaiden, they're massive. They're like final boss material. They jump up and fly down at you to attack you. You can really feel the weight of them and really buy the fact that a single on at the ocean shrine is a problem. In Echoes, they're like three feet tall pterodactyls and stumble around awkwardly on their front claws. I have no problem believing Celica can cut through hoards of them.

*I'm really surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but being able to walk around in villages. I felt Echoes' Adventure Game style format was really underwhelming compared to free range exploration, as minamilistic as it was in Gaiden. And I highly doubt it would have cost that much more to implement. You can find videos where people hack the game to walk around the town and it looks just fine. All it's lacking is a bit of collision detection (and a tonne of modelling in any direction the fixed camera isn't looking at, which is just evidence they never intended to put free roaming around the villages in).

*The boss in the final chapter called Bad Ass. He's still in Echoes...and probably has a more accurate name translation. But I liked calling him Bad Ass. On that subject, the gimmicks in the final dungeon with the moving floor and Celica's team taking constant damage was better in the original.

Edited by Jotari

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26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

*I'm really surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but being able to walk around in villages. I felt Echoes' Adventure Game style format was really underwhelming compared to free range exploration, as minamilistic as it was in Gaiden. And I highly doubt it would have cost that much more to implement. You can find videos where people hack the game to walk around the town and it looks just fine. All it's lacking is a bit of collision detection (and a tonne of modelling in any direction the fixed camera isn't looking at, which is just evidence they never intended to put free roaming around the villages in).

Yeah...I did kind of miss that, too.  I didn't cover it in my first two posts, due to those already getting much more bloated than I was expecting...but that was something I thought was odd, as well.  

But wait, how in the world did they get the assets needed for walking around town?  I don't remember a single non-dungeon where there was an actual, 3D environment!  Were there some unused maps, or something :o: ?!

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

*The boss in the final chapter called Bad Ass. He's still in Echoes...and probably has a more accurate name translation. But I liked calling him Bad Ass. On that subject, the gimmicks in the final dungeon with the moving floor and Celica's team taking constant damage was better in the original.

Actually, that guy...I don't know WHAT the deal was with his name.  The original Japanese name was ベルレス; which I think is a reference to the Demon King "Beleth".  He's a mighty and terrible king in Hell, and he's got 85 legions of demons under his command.  

That doesn't exactly match up to the Katakana, though.  So if you wanted to translate it more literally, you'd come out with something like "Belreth" or "Belres".  Either way?  I have NO idea how Artemis and/or J2E got "Bahdess" from it.  And for that matter, I have no idea why 8-4 changed it to "Naberius".  

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12 minutes ago, FionordeQuester said:

Yeah...I did kind of miss that, too.  I didn't cover it in my first two posts, due to those already getting much more bloated than I was expecting...but that was something I thought was odd, as well.  

But wait, how in the world did they get the assets needed for walking around town?  I don't remember a single non-dungeon where there was an actual, 3D environment!  Were there some unused maps, or something :o: ?!

Actually, that guy...I don't know WHAT the deal was with his name.  The original Japanese name was ベルレス; which I think is a reference to the Demon King "Beleth".  He's a mighty and terrible king in Hell, and he's got 85 legions of demons under his command.  

That doesn't exactly match up to the Katakana, though.  So if you wanted to translate it more literally, you'd come out with something like "Belreth" or "Belres".  Either way?  I have NO idea how Artemis and/or J2E got "Bahdess" from it.  And for that matter, I have no idea why 8-4 changed it to "Naberius".  

It might not look like it, but all of the village enviroments are rendered in full 3D, even without many depth tricks. It's only the characters that are sprites. You can even interact with some of the boxes and stuff since they're identical to the ones in dungeons.

 

The map enviroments are also fully rendered and explorable (though because the dungeon exploring code has nothing when it comes to vertical height boundries, you can walk ontop of walls as if they're not there, still follow slopes and stuff though). There's a full playlist of them exploring places like the Damn and Outpost etc as well as the villages.

Edited by Jotari

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On 3/24/2018 at 6:32 PM, FionordeQuester said:

So in conclusion, I miss the way I needed to use other people besides Alm and Celica.  Granted, most of what I just said is more due to some of Gaiden's horrible game design than anything else...but it still, ultimately, made it necessary to use at least a few more units than I would have needed, otherwise.  Echoes, on the other hand... Well, between the Convoy, the upgrades growth rates, the nerfed Falcon Knights + Angel Ring, the new items (like the Coral Ring), and all the little quality-of-life improvements that Echoes introduced...there was never any need to USE anyone else!!

It is actually FASTER to just solo the entire game with Alm and Celica; even on Hard Mode!

So...that's my two cents.  This, and my earlier discussion about the tone and atmosphere, are the only real things I missed from Gaiden.  Like I said, this game is far and away the superior product.  Just thought it would be fun to write this!  So what do you all think?

I... fail to see how improving the lords is a bad thing. Heck, EVERYONE got improved growth rates in the new game. If anything, a lot of units are more viable now that they were in the original gaiden. Also, of course a single unit could solo a game. They're the only ones gaining the experience, and they're hogging all the equipment and healing items.

Granted, though, everyone play's Fire Emblem differently, and I happen to enjoy the "use everyone, bench no-one" approach. I also find the "one-man army/solo runs" to be more entertaining in theory than in practice.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

*Draco Zombies. I hate the Draco Zombies in Echoes. They're far too small! In Gaiden, they're massive. They're like final boss material. They jump up and fly down at you to attack you. You can really feel the weight of them and really buy the fact that a single on at the ocean shrine is a problem. In Echoes, they're like three feet tall pterodactyls and stumble around awkwardly on their front claws. I have no problem believing Celica can cut through hoards of them.

I think it's hinted at that they're actually undead wyverns. Also, where did you get the impression that they're three feet tall? They don't exactly tower over your units, but they're at least 8-10 feet tall (maybe, as I'm not good at measuring distance without a reference, but they definitely bigger than three feet). They have the stats to back up their status as mini-bosses or elite mooks in both games, so I guess 

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

*The boss in the final chapter called Bad Ass. He's still in Echoes...and probably has a more accurate name translation. But I liked calling him Bad Ass. On that subject, the gimmicks in the final dungeon with the moving floor and Celica's team taking constant damage was better in the original.

His... name is Bahdess. Nonsensical, yeah, but I don't really see the connection to a swear word (unless you're dirty minded). (On a completely unrelated note, how did the word bada-- get to mean "awesome person?" It really means that someone has a bad-looking bottom or is a worthless donkey. Then again, Andrew Jackson did take the insult "jacka--" as a compliment..., and now you know where the democratic party got it's mascot).

As for the gimmicks in the original final dungeon... part of me misses them, as some of the ideas where actually kind of cool, but I can also see why they didn't come back, as it's likely that it would have been highly divisive. It doesn't help that Act 5 is basically a marathon run, which would have just made the strengths and flaws of said gimmicks more apparent. As for Celica's team taking damage, it would be a cool way to mix gameplay and story, as well as encouraging the player not to dilly-dally and to take the riddles, as well as the decision to hunt for more treasure or to go directly the final battle, more seriously, but again, it could also be seem as a needless gimmick that just prioritizes Alm's group over Celica's during the final battle.

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14 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

I... fail to see how improving the lords is a bad thing. Heck, EVERYONE got improved growth rates in the new game. If anything, a lot of units are more viable now that they were in the original gaiden. Also, of course a single unit could solo a game. They're the only ones gaining the experience, and they're hogging all the equipment and healing items.

Granted, though, everyone play's Fire Emblem differently, and I happen to enjoy the "use everyone, bench no-one" approach. I also find the "one-man army/solo runs" to be more entertaining in theory than in practice.

I think it's hinted at that they're actually undead wyverns. Also, where did you get the impression that they're three feet tall? They don't exactly tower over your units, but they're at least 8-10 feet tall (maybe, as I'm not good at measuring distance without a reference, but they definitely bigger than three feet). They have the stats to back up their status as mini-bosses or elite mooks in both games, so I guess 

 

His... name is Bahdess. Nonsensical, yeah, but I don't really see the connection to a swear word (unless you're dirty minded). (On a completely unrelated note, how did the word bada-- get to mean "awesome person?" It really means that someone has a bad-looking bottom or is a worthless donkey. Then again, Andrew Jackson did take the insult "jacka--" as a compliment..., and now you know where the democratic party got it's mascot).

As for the gimmicks in the original final dungeon... part of me misses them, as some of the ideas where actually kind of cool, but I can also see why they didn't come back, as it's likely that it would have been highly divisive. It doesn't help that Act 5 is basically a marathon run, which would have just made the strengths and flaws of said gimmicks more apparent. As for Celica's team taking damage, it would be a cool way to mix gameplay and story, as well as encouraging the player not to dilly-dally and to take the riddles, as well as the decision to hunt for more treasure or to go directly the final battle, more seriously, but again, it could also be seem as a needless gimmick that just prioritizes Alm's group over Celica's during the final battle.

Alright, they're not literally three feet tall, they do stand as tall as the humans. That's not really what I meant. It's more about body proportions. They look really small because they completely lack bulk on them.

Since when was Bad Ass a swear word?

You can save in Act 5, just go to the Mila statue. Unless you mean it's a marathon run as you can't go to the world map, but unless you want to forge weapons, there's no real reason to. I (personally) wouldn't really see it as prioritzing Alm's group over Celica's. He is the army you play at the time, having Celica's army take damage would just more solidly display that they're fighting their own battles at the same time. Of course they couldn't really pull off that idea apopriately since they wanted Celica to be present in the Treasury to squeeze in some more plot. Still, they do just warp Celica over to her army even though she enters from the same place as Alm, so eh...

Edited by Jotari

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30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alright, they're not literally three feet tall, they do stand as tall as the humans. That's not really what I meant. It's more about body proportions. They look really small because they completely lack bulk on them.

Since when was Bad Ass a swear word?

You can save in Act 5, just go to the Mila statue. Unless you mean it's a marathon run as you can't go to the world map, but unless you want to forge weapons, there's no real reason to. I (personally) wouldn't really see it as prioritzing Alm's group over Celica's. He is the army you play at the time, having Celica's army take damage would just more solidly display that they're fighting their own battles at the same time. Of course they couldn't really pull off that idea apopriately since they wanted Celica to be present in the Treasury to squeeze in some more plot. Still, they do just warp Celica over to her army even though she enters from the same place as Alm, so eh...

Differing perspectives, I suppose. I personally think they look like they earn their status of being the sole enemies of the ocean shrine, and a worthy opponent everywhere else, but I can see how other's can see the necrodragons new design as a disappointment.

I know 'a--' is one, or at least it's lost much of it's original meaning of an alternative word for donkey, and I know that it causes the more dirty minded to snicker, so I came to believe that bada-- is a swear word.

It was basically a marathon level in the original gaiden, and even in the remake, Duma's tower is the longest dungeon in the game (not counting Thabe's Labyrinth), so I can see how someone who doesn't like the gimmicks could believe that the level is more of a slog that it already is. As for Celica's group, it's just the fact that you can't bring everyone to the final battle this time around (for some reason), and I can see it being more annoying than interesting for some people having to spend a few turns healing them up before using them. These aren't major changes, of course, but I can see why their potential divisiveness led to IS deciding to remove them.

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26 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Differing perspectives, I suppose. I personally think they look like they earn their status of being the sole enemies of the ocean shrine, and a worthy opponent everywhere else, but I can see how other's can see the necrodragons new design as a disappointment.

I know 'a--' is one, or at least it's lost much of it's original meaning of an alternative word for donkey, and I know that it causes the more dirty minded to snicker, so I came to believe that bada-- is a swear word.

It was basically a marathon level in the original gaiden, and even in the remake, Duma's tower is the longest dungeon in the game (not counting Thabe's Labyrinth), so I can see how someone who doesn't like the gimmicks could believe that the level is more of a slog that it already is. As for Celica's group, it's just the fact that you can't bring everyone to the final battle this time around (for some reason), and I can see it being more annoying than interesting for some people having to spend a few turns healing them up before using them. These aren't major changes, of course, but I can see why their potential divisiveness led to IS deciding to remove them.

I should note that there's nothing inherently wrong with the necro dragons. It's just in comparison to Gaiden I feel they're underwhelming. They still have the whole ocean shrine and big stat total in the original Gaiden, but they also look like great hulking behemoths that swoop down and deal a tonne of damage. They feel more like fighting the Dagons and Fire Dragons in Thabes throughout Gaiden. If I hadn't played Gaiden I've probably be fine with them.

I don't think having the gimmicks would make Duma's Temple (I assume you mean Duma's Temple, Duma's Tower is Celica's final dungeon) any more of a slog. The area would be just as big, the encounters would just be a bit more interesting (plus, the dungeons only really long because of that stupid warp puzzle that keeps bringing you back to the start). Those bossess chasing you in the final map are also a bit more random in Echoes. In Gaiden they're the bossess from those gimmick maps, giving a sense of cohesion between the dungeon and the final map (though honestly most players probably didn't even realise the three bossess chasing you had been fought before since they don't have portaits in Gaiden. I like the idea though).

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3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't think having the gimmicks would make Duma's Temple (I assume you mean Duma's Temple, Duma's Tower is Celica's final dungeon) any more of a slog. The area would be just as big, the encounters would just be a bit more interesting (plus, the dungeons only really long because of that stupid warp puzzle that keeps bringing you back to the start). Those bossess chasing you in the final map are also a bit more random in Echoes. In Gaiden they're the bossess from those gimmick maps, giving a sense of cohesion between the dungeon and the final map (though honestly most players probably didn't even realise the three bossess chasing you had been fought before since they don't have portaits in Gaiden. I like the idea though).

I meant to say Duma's Temple. I haven't played the game in a while, and am actually planning on playing the game again soon. Anyway, after rereading the section from a lets play of the original game for reference, I can see gimmick maps working, and I do find some of them to be pretty interesting (such as the levels where the level slowly floods, encouraging you attack hastily, or ones that have floor switches and walls). I also like your idea of the enemies from the final battle appearing earlier as bosses, as they all have unique portraits, and it would be cool to give them even a little character and to establish them as legitimate threats.

I can understand why IS cut the gimmicks out, though, as it would have been more work to build something that would only be used once or twice, would only appear in the final stretch of the game without any references to the mechanics beforehand, and had the potential to be confusing and divisive among players.

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