How do you kill an Earth/Divine Dragon?

[Jotari]

It's a little underplayed, but it's probably the first plot point in the entire series, it's really hard to kill an Earth Dragon. Medeus had already been killed once before the start of the first game, and with a little effort on Gharnef's part, he was revived twice to little ill effect (in fact he got even stronger the second time due to...reasons). Divine Dragons later gained this apparent trait in the Shadow Dragon remake (won't complicate things by getting into the possession books from Jugdral) with Nagi being a reincarnation of some sort of Naga. Then it was reinforced with Naga again in Awakening, where she's in some sort of spirit form that can still restore people's health, teleport armies and unlock the power of the Falchion. Shadows of Valentia retconned Mila and Duma as Divine Dragons and turned their sealing from the original game into full on death, but still present in spirit form. Mila could even revive the dead in this state!

So it's a pretty clearly reinforced idea, that no matter what you do, no matter how many times you stab a Divine or Earth Dragon with a weapon specifically designed to kill them, they simply won't die. At best you can render them in an incorporeal form where they can still do some impressive stuff. And all it takes is a knowledgeable mage like Gharnef or Gotoh to give them physical form again (just came up with the headcanon that Gotoh revived Naga as Nagi the same way Gharnef revived Medeus). At best, it seems like the only way is to make them commit suicide in some way, if Grima's invulnerability is the same as a regular old Divine Dragon (and if he is working under the same rules, it means any Earth or Divine Dragon can eventually revive themselves given about a millennia of rest time).

With all that in mind, how did these races go extinct? The official explanation is they had a big war with each other, but how did the Divine Dragon successfully manage to eradicate the Earth Dragons? Is there a way to permanently kill them that even the Falchion lacks? Or did they simply destroy their corporeal bodies, in which case there's thousands of insane Dragon spirits flying around that have significant powers even as ghosts? That's a scary thought. It's almost better to leave them alive as an insane dragon then dead as a insane ghost (which I suppose the whole Shield of Seals thing was going for, but still, Earth Dragons were still surely killed in the war, and that doesn't cover any of the Divine Dragons that must have died and would be equally dangerous as crazy ass ghosts).

Edited June 8, 2018 by Jotari

[Shoblongoo]

In FE mechanics specifically or in general fiction?

Because there's a hilarious number of ways to wipe out races with the abilities the Earth/Divine Dragons have shown in general fiction.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[omegaxis1]

Honestly, the reason I always associate with them generally being able to survive is having a substantially large amount of quintessence. Dragons have more quintessence than normal humans. So even if you wound a dragon, they are presented to not die, but go into a deep slumber. 

It's precisely because of this that Naga is still alive. Her body died, but her spirit had such powerful quintessence that it infused with the land itself, allowing her to survive, and even be able to create vessels to hold her consciousness. 

[Sock]

This topic has been bothering me. Damn dragons don't know how to give up the ghost. Their life energy is too strong for their spirits to vanish.

Some notes:
-Naga dies in Archanea Year -500. Nagi is found floating around in Archanea Year 607 (but she's in an Outrealm so maybe there's a time difference). Then 1000 years later, Naga has something to do with the first exalt. Then another 1000 years later, Naga is in Awakening and who knows if she has a real body to walk around in or is just a spirit.
-In the alternate future of Awakenings' DLC, both Naga and Tiki are killed but survive as spirits.
-Medues and Grima are sealed repeatedly and revived repeatedly. Grima is supposedly utterly destroyed "by his own hand" via Robin.
-Mila is simultaneously killed, sealed, and survives in spirit form.

Seriously! Damn dragons don't know HOW to give up the ghost! ...I suppose this is why the bad guys keep getting sealed. Too difficult to actually kill them, and they're so powerful they'll just revive eventually anyway. Easier-ish to seal them.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

in which case there's thousands of insane Dragon spirits flying around that significant powers even as ghosts?

Isn't this the shtick with Dragon's Table? The spirits of the feral earth dragons from before Marth's time gathered there? I don't quite remember.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

With all that in mind, how did these races go extinct?

They didn't go extinct, exactly. Tiki is still around, at the very least.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The official explanation is they had a big war with each other, but how did the Divine Dragon successfully manage to eradicate the Earth Dragons?

The dragons wiped out most of their species in that war, both earth dragons and divine dragons. I seem to recall that some of the earth dragons survived and actually did become manaketes. (The earth dragons started the war because they were against the idea of taking human form. It's a little more complicated, but I'll save that history lesson.) Sooo... Neither side was forced to extinction. Just close to it. Humans were also almost wiped out in that war.

'Course by the time of Awakening who knows if any earth dragons are still around. :v

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Sock said:

The dragons wiped out most of their species in that war, both earth dragons and divine dragons. I seem to recall that some of the earth dragons survived and actually did become manaketes. (The earth dragons started the war because they were against the idea of taking human form. It's a little more complicated, but I'll save that history lesson.) Sooo... Neither side was forced to extinction. Just close to it. Humans were also almost wiped out in that war.

'Course by the time of Awakening who knows if any earth dragons are still around. :v

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The official explanation is they had a big war with each other, but how did the Divine Dragon successfully manage to eradicate the Earth Dragons?

Actually, the Divine Dragons NEVER eradicated the Earth Dragons. Precisely because they are so damn hard to kill. But the issue with the Divine Dragons is that they became Manaketes. So I believe this caused them to be more vulnerable to death. 

Also, I theorize that Grima ate the Earth Dragons by the First Exalt's time and that's how he got so big.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Sock said:

This topic has been bothering me. Damn dragons don't know how to give up the ghost. Their life energy is too strong for their spirits to vanish.

Some notes:
-Naga dies in Archanea Year -500. Nagi is found floating around in Archanea Year 607 (but she's in an Outrealm so maybe there's a time difference). Then 1000 years later, Naga has something to do with the first exalt. Then another 1000 years later, Naga is in Awakening and who knows if she has a real body to walk around in or is just a spirit.
-In the alternate future of Awakenings' DLC, both Naga and Tiki are killed but survive as spirits.
-Medues and Grima are sealed repeatedly and revived repeatedly. Grima is supposedly utterly destroyed "by his own hand" via Robin.
-Mila is simultaneously killed, sealed, and survives in spirit form.

Seriously! Damn dragons don't know HOW to give up the ghost! ...I suppose this is why the bad guys keep getting sealed. Too difficult to actually kill them, and they're so powerful they'll just revive eventually anyway. Easier-ish to seal them.

Isn't this the shtick with Dragon's Table? The spirits of the feral earth dragons from before Marth's time gathered there? I don't quite remember.

They didn't go extinct, exactly. Tiki is still around, at the very least.

The dragons wiped out most of their species in that war, both earth dragons and divine dragons. I seem to recall that some of the earth dragons survived and actually did become manaketes. (The earth dragons started the war because they were against the idea of taking human form. It's a little more complicated, but I'll save that history lesson.) Sooo... Neither side was forced to extinction. Just close to it. Humans were also almost wiped out in that war.

'Course by the time of Awakening who knows if any earth dragons are still around. :v

None of the Earth Dragons took manakete form except Medeus (unless they retcon that in the future). All the survivors of the war were sealed in the Dragon's Table. But the fact that some are still alive is ignoring the fact that many of them likely died somehow, and if they weren't killed for reals then there should be crazy angry Earth and Divine dragons floating around.

Your comment does remind me that Grima claims to have killed Naga in the future past. So that would indicate there is a way to kill ghost dragons for good.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

None of the Earth Dragons took manakete form except Medeus (unless they retcon that in the future). All the survivors of the war were sealed in the Dragon's Table. But the fact that some are still alive is ignoring the fact that many of them likely died somehow, and if they weren't killed for reals then there should be crazy angry Earth and Divine dragons floating around.

Personally, I would be okay if there was just ONE more Earth Dragon that took Manakete form that was actually a good guy. We have yet to meet a single good natured Earth Dragon. Medeus might have been, but humans destroyed that opinion.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Your comment does remind me that Grima claims to have killed Naga in the future past. So that would indicate there is a way to kill ghost dragons for good.

Well, as I mentioned above, Naga can just revive herself after enough time passed, but Tiki took spiritual form and inherited that power, which allowed the Awakening to be performed, but in exchange, Naga had to die for good and Tiki had to become the new Naga.

[Shoblongoo]

Okay so there's two (2) separate questions here.

1) How do the dragons keep coming back after you "kill" them?

2) How can you permanently put them down in a way that would stop them from coming back

___________

How they do it

So here's my take on it--in Fire Emblem you a physical existence (i.e. your body) and a spiritual existence (i.e. your soul). When your physical existence ends, (i.e. you undergo mortal death), the soul is released from the body.

This applies to humans and dragons.

However, how long your disembodied soul sticks around before it dissipates into the ether and how much autonomy it has to continue performing willful actions varies depending on factors like race, individual willpower, and level of mastery over soul-manipulating magics.

In the case of an ordinary human or demihuman or w/e, the soul has no autonomy after it leaves the body and dissipates very quickly. This presumably is how he bifrost staff works and why it can only be used immediately after the human is slain in battle--bifrost must be used before the disembodied soul dissipates to perform a successful Resurrection of the physical form.

For a sufficiently POWERFUL human or demihuman--the soul can stick around for a much longer time and even perform autonomous acts like inhabiting a favored relic, and having conversations with living beings. There is also a much longer period of time in which the soul can be resurrected into a new physical form. 

This presumably is why Ninian--an Oracle of great power among the ice dragons--can be resurrected at the end of FE7 days, weeks, or possibly even months after she is slain by Eliwood.

This is presumably why Durban and Roland--mythic humans of extraordinary power--still exist as ghosts and can still inhabit their weapons + talk to Eliwood and Hector 1,000 years after their mortal demise.

...then you get to the earth dragons and the divine dragons...

Now you're dealing with beings who are so old and so powerful and so well-versed in the art of soul manipulation. Their spirits can live on for thousands and thousands of years after the destruction of their physical forms (which would normally be an impossible feat to begin with but-for the use of Falchion or a Divine Weapon specifically designed to rend said forms). 

Moreover, their disembodied spirits can perform complex autonomous actions such as:  empowering mortal champions, directing them to pursue a specific course of conduct, and setting up elaborate schemes through which the spirit can regain a suitable physical form.

How to Stop them From Doing It
  
To put it quite simply: killing these beings in such a way that they stay dead and can never come back requires hitting them with a soul-destroying attack. Mere rending of the physical form (i.e. what the falchion presumably does) will not suffice.  
 

• The fact that Grima can not be permanently put down by falchion but can be permanently put down by suicide indicates that Grima has soul-destroying attacks; it is capable of ending your existence on both a physical and spiritual level.
• Nergal's ability to drain souls and convert them to raw magical power should likewise be able to permanently put down a divine dragon, if mastered by a sufficiently powerful user (Canon Nergal himself would not be powerful enough to 1-v-1 a divine dragon and consume its soul before getting his shit kicked in by said dragon. But sayyyyyy--a Nergal that successfully completed his scheme to open the dragon gate and om-nom-nom the souls of the fire dragons that walked through and fortify himself with their consumed spirits. That could do it.)
• Ashera probably has sufficient soulfuckery to permanently put down a divine dragon. Seeing as how she was literally capable of creating planet-level populations of ensouled beings from lifeless clay.
• Does Fomortis eat souls? I haven't touched FE8 in a long time, but I'm pretty sure somewhere in the fluff around his possession of Lyon is some text that would support the claim Fomortis can eat souls. 
• The Dragons of Elibe evidently had a way to destroy souls, because they did it to Idoun. I think its also heavily implied--if not outright stated--that Nergal gained the ability to consume souls by studying the magic of the dragons.
• I don't care enough about Fates to analyze what Anankos does and how his power works, but he can probably eat souls too. 

...those would be the things in Fire Emblem that could threaten to permanently kill a divine dragon or earth dragon...

In general fiction--take your pick of ways that beings can get absolutely annihilated on every physical, spiritual, and conceptual level. Theres alot of them. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Personally, I would be okay if there was just ONE more Earth Dragon that took Manakete form that was actually a good guy. We have yet to meet a single good natured Earth Dragon. Medeus might have been, but humans destroyed that opinion.

Well, as I mentioned above, Naga can just revive herself after enough time passed, but Tiki took spiritual form and inherited that power, which allowed the Awakening to be performed, but in exchange, Naga had to die for good and Tiki had to become the new Naga.

Naga could normally revive herself eventually, but in the future past timeline Grima does outright say he killed her (how, I'm not sure, maybe firing off an expiration at her spiritual image would suffice) so Tiki took the spot as the new Naga because there was an opening.

19 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

*snip*

That about sums it up. But what I was really wondering, is do the Divine Dragons themselves have a method for permanently eradicating Earth Dragons or fellow rogue Divine Dragons (of which there seems to be a surprising amount of) other than sealing them in the Dragon Table. There must have been casualties on both sides of the war before the Divine Dragons won and they must have had a way of stopping the dead dragons, otherwise there would likely be evidence of it. So perhaps Grima's soul destroying abilities has less to do with him being Grima and more with being a divine dragon (wait, no, Naga says she can't permanently destroy Grima though...Hmm, maybe she just meant she's unable to as the spirit from she's comfortably occupied for a couple thousand years).

The point about the Elibe dragons is interesting. On the whole, we don't see much evidence that they're as strong as the Archanea dragons. Elibe dragons managed to go extinct from puny humans while Archanea dragons were the undisputed master of the human race, and just in general displayed more varied and greater powers. So I think I'm willing to bet that if the Elibe dragons could destroy souls, then the Archanea dragons possess that ability too. Now that I think about it, Duma does actively display this power in regards to the witches (and yes, I recall Fomantiis talking about consuming Lyon's soul too).

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jotari

[Sock]

That...is an awesome write-up.

18 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

The fact that Grima can not be permanently put down by falchion but can be permanently put down by suicide indicates that Grima has soul-destroying attacks; it is capable of ending your existence on both a physical and spiritual level.

I'd like to present this:

Naga
Yes. But know this: I am no god.
Lucina
But milady, you are the divine dragon!
Naga
So do sons of man name me. But I am no creator. I possess not the powers of making or unmaking. And neither does Grima. Neither of us bears the power to destroy the other utterly.

Just to throw a wrench in things. :v

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Sock said:

That...is an awesome write-up.

I'd like to present this:

 

 

Just to throw a wrench in things. :v

Evidently, she must have been wrong, because we get this in Future Past

• Naga: Tiki? But...you died in that world.
• Tiki: Yes. And now only my spirit remains. But I came here to tell you something important before I take your place there. Before I become tied to that world forever...
• Naga: Take my place?
• Tiki: You know what I mean. And why.
• Naga: ......
• Tiki: But everything will turn out all right. We have you to thank for that, Naga, for sending help. And you, brave warriors, for giving it. In our world, Naga is dead, but you fought in her stead and gave us hope. We cannot thank you enough. But we will always remember— (Tiki leaves)
• Chrom: Huh? She's gone! What just happened?

So Grima killed the Future Past's version of Naga. They were fortunate a parallel version of Naga took interest and sent main time Chrom and co to help out. I suppose it's possible Tiki just meant Naga is a plain old corpse when she says "In our world, Naga is dead," but it wouldn't really make sense as a comment as the same is true for all Awakening era worlds with any way similar a timeline.

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Naga could normally revive herself eventually, but in the future past timeline Grima does outright say he killed her (how, I'm not sure, maybe firing off an expiration at her spiritual image would suffice) so Tiki took the spot as the new Naga because there was an opening.

No, he CLAIMS he killed her. But Naga is clearly around, actually bringing people into the Outrealm and telling Chrom to hurry and save them. Remember, so long as Naga's power runs through the land, meaning her quintessence, her soul can never move on. Well, until Tiki took her place that is.

 

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, he CLAIMS he killed her. But Naga is clearly around, actually bringing people into the Outrealm and telling Chrom to hurry and save them. Remember, so long as Naga's power runs through the land, meaning her quintessence, her soul can never move on. Well, until Tiki took her place that is.

 

I expect you missed the quote I just dredge up.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Evidently, she must have been wrong, because we get this in Future Past

• Naga: Tiki? But...you died in that world.
• Tiki: Yes. And now only my spirit remains. But I came here to tell you something important before I take your place there. Before I become tied to that world forever...
• Naga: Take my place?
• Tiki: You know what I mean. And why.
• Naga: ......
• Tiki: But everything will turn out all right. We have you to thank for that, Naga, for sending help. And you, brave warriors, for giving it. In our world, Naga is dead, but you fought in her stead and gave us hope. We cannot thank you enough. But we will always remember— (Tiki leaves)
• Chrom: Huh? She's gone! What just happened?

So Grima killed the Future Past's version of Naga. They were fortunate a parallel version of Naga took interest and sent main time Chrom and co to help out. I suppose it's possible Tiki just meant Naga is a plain old corpse when she says "In our world, Naga is dead," but it wouldn't really make sense as a comment as the same is true for all Awakening era worlds with any way similar a timeline.

Tiki clearly believes Grima's claim even upon seeing Naga standing right before her. She treats it as an alternate version of mother dearest, just like our party are alternate versions of Chrom and co.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I expect you missed the quote I just dredge up.

Tiki clearly believes Grima's claim even upon seeing Naga standing right before her. She treats it as an alternate version of mother dearest, just like our party are alternate versions of Chrom and co.

Actually, on this case here, it seems like the Naga that sends for help seems to be the Future Past world's Naga as well, based on this:

Quote

Grima: I see Naga has played her last card. Summoning them from another world? Pfft! She should realize by now that she has already lost. There's no going back. Instead she wastes my time with petty tricks! [teleports away from the group] ...But it makes no difference. A mountain of maggots is crushed as easily as one. If it's a reunion you seek, my soldiers shall welcome you on my behalf. You will soon be begging for the quick death I was willing to give you!

Also, it also implies that Naga was using Tiki as a means to stay connected:

Quote

Naga: This will likely be your final battle in their world. Now that my Voice there has been silenced, I cannot bind your worlds together for long. Still, I believe you will find the faint light of hope sleeping within the fell dragon. I believe that you will work a miracle greater than any despair he can sow. Now go, warriors. Let destiny once again be reshaped by your hands!

So it could actually be both ways, where this could be Naga of the Future Past that died but used her last power to bring help. Or it could be our world's Naga sending help.

[Sock]

"Tiki? But...you died in that world."

"In our world, Naga is dead"

Who means what? What means dead? I'm not making sense either.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Sock said:

"Tiki? But...you died in that world."

"In our world, Naga is dead"

Who means what? What means dead? I'm not making sense either.

It's so damn confusing. 

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, on this case here, it seems like the Naga that sends for help seems to be the Future Past world's Naga as well, based on this:

Also, it also implies that Naga was using Tiki as a means to stay connected:

So it could actually be both ways, where this could be Naga of the Future Past that died but used her last power to bring help. Or it could be our world's Naga sending help.

I think Tiki's line makes it very clear it's a different Naga, but Grima's line is pretty confusing. If he believes he's killed Naga, then how can he be expecting her to play any more cards. I think there's only one real solution...Someone revived Naga and she fought the giant sky Grima one on one,  devastating half the world (why else is Grima appearing before you in the Robin body with a spectral dragon head? He could just flatten them all with his giant dragon body). Grima managed to kill her body, thus killing her, but her soul persisted. It's basically fan fiction, but it's the only thing that really satisfies all the references.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

I think Tiki's line makes it very clear it's a different Naga, but Grima's line is pretty confusing. If he believes he's killed Naga, then how can he be expecting her to play any more cards. I think there's only one real solution...Someone revived Naga and she fought the giant sky Grima one on one, devastating half the world. Grima managed to kill her body, thus killing her, but her soul persisted. It's basically fan fiction, but it's the only thing that really satisfies all the references.

Does Naga even have a body? Because Naga clearly shows to have a spiritual body.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's so damn confusing. 

It doesn't help that Naga seems inexplicably confused that Tiki is still lingering around as a spirit, even though she's presumably in the exact same state.

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Does Naga even have a body? Because Naga clearly shows to have a spiritual body.

I'm suggesting someone revived Naga in her physical dragon body to do battle with Grima in a colossal war of the gods.

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm suggesting someone revived Naga in her physical dragon body to do battle with Grima in a colossal war of the gods.

okay plotholes and crap aside I would f*cking pay to see that

Edited April 11, 2018 by Otts486

[Shoblongoo]

15 hours ago, Sock said:

Naga
Yes. But know this: I am no god.
Lucina
But milady, you are the divine dragon!
Naga
So do sons of man name me. But I am no creator. I possess not the powers of making or unmaking. And neither does Grima. Neither of us bears the power to destroy the other utterly.

 

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

• Naga: Tiki? But...you died in that world.
• Tiki: Yes. And now only my spirit remains. But I came here to tell you something important before I take your place there. Before I become tied to that world forever...
• Naga: Take my place?
• Tiki: You know what I mean. And why.
• Naga: ......
• Tiki: But everything will turn out all right. We have you to thank for that, Naga, for sending help. And you, brave warriors, for giving it. In our world, Naga is dead, but you fought in her stead and gave us hope. We cannot thank you enough. But we will always remember— (Tiki leaves)
• Chrom: Huh? She's gone! What just happened?

Simplest explanation for all that:

The earth/divine dragons possess both the power to destroy souls, and the power to protect their souls against destruction. Clearest evidence for this was the Death of Celica scene at the end of Echoes.

-She gives her Soul to Duma and becomes a witch.
-She attacks Alm as a soulless husk 
-Alm stabs said husk with Naga's Fang
-Celica's physical form is mortally wounded to the point of death
- Naga or Mila or whoever does some magical nonsense, and Celica is fully restored in both body and in soul.

Its clear from that encounter that whatever Duma did to her soul--his fellow divine dragons had the power to negate or undo it.  My working theory would then be:

1) A dragon with the power to destroy an immortal soul likewise has some measure of power to protect their immortal soul from being destroyed.

2) If two dragons of near-equal power fight, the destructive power of one will not be able to overcome the protections of the other. And neither dragon can be permanently slain as a result of the battle.

3) The power of one dragon must far exceed the power of another, if said dragon is to overcome their protections and extinguish their soul.

--------

As to why Naga says neither she nor Grima have the power to unmake the other, but gets killed by Grima in an alternate timeline...again...simplest explanation...

Naga grossly underestimated Grima's power. She thought they were near-equals. But in fact: Grima is stronger than her. By a fairly sizable margin.

Naga went into battle overconfident and underprepared, thinking she and Grima would be evenly matched. They weren't. And she got god-stomped.  
     

 

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

 

Simplest explanation for all that:

The earth/divine dragons possess both the power to destroy souls, and the power to protect their souls against destruction. Clearest evidence for this was the Death of Celica scene at the end of Echoes.

-She gives her Soul to Duma and becomes a witch.
-She attacks Alm as a soulless husk 
-Alm stabs said husk with Naga's Fang
-Celica's physical form is mortally wounded to the point of death
- Naga or Mila or whoever does some magical nonsense, and Celica is reborn as an ensouled being

Its clear from that encounter that whatever Duma did to her soul--his fellow divine dragons had the power to undo it.  My working theory would then be:

1) A dragon with the power to destroy an immortal soul likewise has some measure of power to protect their immortal soul from being destroyed.

2) If two dragons of near-equal power fight, the destructive power of one will not be able to overcome the protections of the other. And neither dragon can be permanently slain as a result of the battle.

3) The power of one dragon must far exceed the power of another, if said dragon is to overcome their protections and extinguish their soul.

--------

As to why Naga says neither she nor Grima have the power to unmake the other, but gets killed by Grima in an alternate timeline...again...simplest explanation...

Naga grossly underestimated Grima's power. She thought they were near-equals. But in fact: Grima is stronger than her. By a fairly sizable margin.

Naga went into battle overconfident and underprepared, thinking she and Grima would be evenly matched. They weren't. And she got god-stomped.  
     

 

 

Make sense. And also makes Earth and Divine Dragons that much more high tier. If Nergal wants to steal the quintessence of a Divine Dragon, he doesn't just need to be able to defeat it physically, he needs to be strong enough to absolutely dominate it in battle.

[omegaxis1]

I'm just gonna say this. But I do not think that when they say devour the souls and such, or destroy it, I do not think that they mean literally in fact. Rather, I believe that when they refer to the soul, they are referring more to their consciousness or will. For example, if Celica's soul was consumed truly, why was she able to talk to Alm while controlled by Duma? Or why were Nyna, Lena, Elice, and Maria able to suddenly snap back to their senses despite how it was said that their souls were destroyed or such? 

The concept of soul has been very subjective in cases and seem to cause a lot of confusion towards people.

[Emperor Hardin]

As far as I know, its never been revealed, though degeneration definitely kills them mentally, the body and its strong life-force are still around.

As for the Earth Dragons, they didn't kill them, they were sealed in the table.

Many Divine Dragons were killed though, whether it was permanent wasn't revealed, possibly because they exhausted out their dragon powers/dragonstones?

Edited April 12, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

25 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Many Divine Dragons were killed though, whether it was permanent wasn't revealed, possibly because they exhausted out their dragon powers/dragonstones?

The timeline reveals now that the Divine Dragons that died were of the royal family. So this would open that there are other Divine Dragons that survived now.