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Conquest tiering discussion

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1 hour ago, Johnnie said:

So I keep hearing about MN Silas with Sol but I've never tried it. When do you seal him to Merc/Hero? Immediately after promotion? As soon as he hits level 10?

Also a 2-level dip into Archer is always useful, but what else is a good marriage class? 

Also I've rarely had a useful Sophie outside of Silas/Effie.

Heard similar things about Soleil, too.

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10 hours ago, starburst said:

 

 

 

 

About Mozu, well, I started using her as an Archer because I found bows useful but did not really like Nile's character. After using Archer Mozu across various campaigns I noticed that she constantly delivered. So, choosing her was a purely subjective decision, but using her was entirely based on results. Back then, I knew nothing about growths- or averages tables; I wanted bows, and she was effective. That is it.

As joshcja says, Mozu's numbers does not matter that much, given her niche and the skills in her class-tree. The thing is that her numbers are not bad either.
Let us see, by Chapter 16, Sniper Mozu L1 has, on average, the same Str than L4 MK Camilla and -3 Str than L4 Pal Xander. By the end of Ch 18, Sniper Mozu should be around L5, while Pal Xander and WL Camilla should be L5-6 (unless you are really bad at Ch 17 and had to let the siblings eat all the Experience.) Well, from that point and until the end of the game, at similar levels, Sniper Mozu has between -2 and +1 Strength compared to Pal Xander or WL Camilla (iron bows and axes have the same might, and a +1 forge of any of them hits as hard as Sigfried.) Sniper Mozu will also have anything from +6 to +10 more Skill, and anything from +6 to +12 more Speed over both siblings, at any given point.
Different skills come into play, but Sniper Mozu has +4 attack and +40 % Hit on Player Phase, and an extra +5 attack late in the game, which is comparable to or higher than what Elbow Room plus Defender give Xander, and comparable to or higher than what Str +2 plus Trample give Camilla.

Of course Xander and Camilla are way better units than Mozu, there is no discussion there. Never was. But they play entirely different roles. The actual question is: Would you invest a Heart Seal and 30 Turns (in their own map) on a Player Phase unit that has the same attack power as Pal Xander and WL Camilla from mid-game onwards, and WTA over Shurikens and Lances, and +40 % Hit, and 34 Speed capped around L20/10, and 36 Skill capped around L20/12, and... ?

Leaving numbers aside, my experience tells me that: a Sniper never misses a hit; a Sniper crits at every thing, even when you do not want to; bows and tomes are the best Player Phase weapons; Aptitude and high Skill create monstrous Sophie's, Velouria's and Nina's, all who also crit like crazy; Effie in particular, but all physical men also benefit from Archer or Sniper skills... Oh! And I also find it cute to watch a midget critting at every boss.
Now this is subjective.


What rank is Mozu? It does not matter. She is E by design and will remain E if she is not levelled-up in her own chapter.
Yeah, those turn counts kill any LTC campaign; one can at least rest assured that if the investment is done, she pays every time. This I know.

The thing is, she requires a lot of investment for all this, and I would rather not knowingly make investments that have a good chance of not yielding any notable profit for how much trouble I have to go through to follow through on them. As for what joshcja brought up, that requires three level 15 skills... in a game where you can consider yourself lucky to have two by the time the game's over unless you're Felicia, Jakob or Gunter. That's an insane amount of investment, and one that I am extremely hard pressed to consider worth it. Doesn't help that I never felt, "Damn, I wish I had invested in Mozu, because she would have come in handy right about now".

Edited by Shadow Mir

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3 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

How exactly did you properly set him up for mid-late game? I originally had an ok Odin performance on my first Lunatic run but he drops off during Hoshido map rush since i stopped putting attention to him(and i memed with Leo >_>) . ATM he kinda struggles in Fuga.map

Ideally, he’ll get two levels in samurai and then go back in the middle of the game. If you don’t want to burn two heart seals before you can buy them in unlimited amounts after chapter 20, you could wait until chapter 19 or so and then switch to Master of Arms to collect the first three skills from that line, then go back to Sorcerer after chapter 20. An alternative is to go samurai early, grab Vantage, and then recruit Ophelia with Vantage inherited to do this job. This usually works better because you want the loot from Ophelia's paralogue as soon as possible.

Use late paralogues to boost levels. After chapter 20, depending on how overleveled Odin is, it'll probably take between 1 and 3 paralogues to get him to level 15. The non-boss enemies in the Nohrian child paralogues are level 6 at this point, but in the paralogues for shared children (Sophie, Dwyer, Midori, Shigure, Kana) the “captains” of enemy squads are level 14. Kana's paralogue is particularly lucrative, especially if you wait for the reinforcement waves, because it has something like a dozen captains and two bosses. For every chapter you delay, the levels go up by 2, but I’d want to have my late-game builds ready to go before chapter 22 at the latest.

Ideally, Odin or Ophelia marry someone who gives them Tomefaire or Trample. The reclass route goes like this:

  1. Acquire early Vantage by whatever means
  2. Promote to Sorcerer
  3. Consider picking up a few levels in Master of Arms around level 9 to clear a few of those skills early if you haven’t already, especially in Ophelia's case. Odin might dip into the mercenary line if he gets it from Laslow.
  4. Partner Seal into Onmyoji or Malig Knight at level 11 and get Tomefaire/Trample
  5. Switch to Master of Arms and grab Life and Death, ideally at level 16
  6. Return to Sorcerer so you can start pushing toward S rank in tomes

At this point you have Vantage, Heartseeker, and +17 damage stack. Nosferatu is no longer good once Life and Death comes online, but instead of trying to heal yourself, you should now try to just reach one-hit kill thresholds on everything you fight. You’ve got a lot of tools to help get there: modest tome forges and the calamity gate with its doubled reverse WTA, strong +Mag pair-up, meals, and tonics usually, and potentially Rally Magic and +damage auras.

Bowbreaker also has significant value in 25 and may prove better than Malefic Aura in 22, 23, and 24 if you’re two points beyond the kill thresholds. Ophelia can often get there but Odin usually needs all the damage boosts he can get.

Edited by Zoran

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4 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

How exactly did you properly set him up for mid-late game? I originally had an ok Odin performance on my first Lunatic run but he drops off during Hoshido map rush since i stopped putting attention to him(and i memed with Leo >_>) . ATM he kinda struggles in Fuga.map

We're not at 3rdshop so while we "can" build LaD/SRip/Mal/HS/Vantage on Odin it's really seal intensive.

20&21 are noflynolife and we want to beat up Haya-ho's area with a solMN so Odin is mostly coasting on by in the southeast through northeast by beating the tar out of spearmen to set up for his third shop paralouge dips for LaD+Riposte+ wife stuff.

It always takes one paralouge to pull this off after ch19 if that chapter is Shigures as we can funnel the entire map into one unit and Odin should be 20/10 going in. 

------

I alway wish I had Mozu. In non-bowzu play archer is quickly becoming my favorite talent.

Edited by joshcja

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1 hour ago, joshcja said:

We're not at 3rdshop so while we "can" build LaD/SRip/Mal/HS/Vantage on Odin it's really seal intensive.

20&21 are noflynolife and we want to beat up Haya-ho's area with a solMN so Odin is mostly coasting on by in the southeast through northeast by beating the tar out of spearmen to set up for his third shop paralouge dips for LaD+Riposte+ wife stuff.

It always takes one paralouge to pull this off after ch19 if that chapter is Shigures as we can funnel the entire map into one unit and Odin should be 20/10 going in. 

------

I alway wish I had Mozu. In non-bowzu play archer is quickly becoming my favorite talent.

Lol i honestly never liked Mozu since the idea is shes a glass canon with investment. Whenever i want to try her its like "Ok but X character with Heart Seals tho"

 

At least i know "she starts with E Bow" is a complete meme since  theres functionally no difference between E and D weapon rank in Fates outside Dagger(due to Steel Shuriken being a thing)

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1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Lol i honestly never liked Mozu since the idea is shes a glass canon with investment. Whenever i want to try her its like "Ok but X character with Heart Seals tho"

 

At least i know "she starts with E Bow" is a complete meme since  theres functionally no difference between E and D weapon rank in Fates outside Dagger(due to Steel Shuriken being a thing)

Well there is the General!Mozu hype train...

(I still need to use that)

---------

As for Sol on MN stack builds. Soliel can set it up in her paralouge while other users tend to use a dump paralouge or Ch19 to set up their 3 hero levels

Edited by joshcja

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6 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Lol i honestly never liked Mozu since the idea is shes a glass canon with investment. Whenever i want to try her its like "Ok but X character with Heart Seals tho"

Ditto. I always feel there's better options for Heart Seals (and in general) than Mozu.

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12 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Lol i honestly never liked Mozu since the idea is shes a glass canon with investment. Whenever i want to try her its like "Ok but X character with Heart Seals tho"

At least i know "she starts with E Bow" is a complete meme since  theres functionally no difference between E and D weapon rank in Fates outside Dagger(due to Steel Shuriken being a thing)


Well, Archer Mozu has more Defence than Odin, Peri, Jakob, Niles, Kaze, Elise, Ophelia, Sophie, Nina, Anna, Azura, Felicia, Laslow, Charlotte, Nyx... So, your use of “glass cannon" is rather broad and encompasses most units.

But ignore Mozu and let us see the class itself. The growths of Archer » Sniper are very similar to those of Mercenary » Hero. More than a glass cannon, the Archer’s high Skill (and later the +40 % Hit skill as a Sniper) makes it very effective against bosses and high-evade units (like Kaden and the Pet Shop Boys.)

Given its rarity, one must plan a Sniper in Conquest, but you could try Sniper Niles, Sniper Effie or Sniper Silas relatively early, either through Mozu or through Corrinette's talent.
Oh! Kinshi Knight is also fun, but it plays a different role.

Edited by starburst
Clarity.

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On 1/17/2019 at 2:29 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Who were you hoping to test in particular?

Gave Mozu a try. Was hoping to give Benny and Keaton a try as well if I ever get up to C13/C14 to give a proper response to earlier posts in the thread; I can theorise that they're bad fine but I don't think I've actually tried to use them on Lunatic more than once.

On 1/18/2019 at 3:27 AM, Centh said:

Proven to be utterly false by videos previously posted. Odin takes near no investment besides nos tome. Clinging to these arguments, which are demonstrated to be MASSIVELY false, is reaching a level I can't comprehend.

 

I can't tell if some of the users on this forum are really really bad and sad trolls or actually this dense. Step 1: Have online available. Step 2: visit castles for 8min. Step 3: You're done with resource gathering for that play file. Step 4: Double check you have the planning skills to accomplish this daring feat of intellectual prowess. Step 5: Confirm to yourself this isn't a hoax and this really was THIS FUCKING EASY. Step 6: Play the game without online. Phew, what a rough ride. I had to rub 3 brain cells together.

 

Can't have a fun discussion without the brain drain gang showing up. inb4 the reports etc. I don't care anymore. This is too stupid to just let slide. Get some fucking help.

The ignore list might help improve your enjoyment of the forum.

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On 19/1/2019 at 7:08 PM, Dean said:

Gave Mozu a try. Was hoping to give Benny and Keaton a try as well if I ever get up to C13/C14 to give a proper response to earlier posts in the thread; I can theorise that they're bad fine but I don't think I've actually tried to use them on Lunatic more than once.


On my last Lunatic campaign, I stopped around Chapter 18. Not because I had gotten stuck in a chapter, but because some thresholds were required and I felt 'compelled' to field certain or more units, or use them in a particular way; specially some 'backpacks' and early promotions, both of which I do not usually use. I realised that it contrasted with my policy of ten-units-only parties, no 'backpacks' and no pre-promotes, through which I had been playing Hard.
In this sense, Hard gives me more freedom to try units and classes.

Using the, let us say, controversial early units like Archer Mozu or Odin is not that different from Hard to Lunatic since the difficulty of the early chapters (where they are levelled-up) is similar in Hard and Lunatic. But 'using' (more than as 'backpacks') units like Charlotte or Keaton is a bit more difficult, for they have less opportunities to get free kills in the chapters following their recruitment.

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The reason the tier list looks the way it does is because alot of thr Reddit users make 2 major assumptions:

1: Turn Count is of utmost importance, to the point where using a very unreliable strategy is better if it saves a couple turns

2: Units in Branch of Fate are Allowed to be rigged, while i don't have any direct quotes for this. i feel it can be inferred by the EXTREME overration or Corrin, Jakob, and Kaze. 

Essentially, while reliablity doesnt matter and you are literally using LTC strats, of course corrin,jakob,xander. and camilla own the game. 

 

Paralouges cant be visited because they "Cost Turns", so all children and capture bosses are disqualified. Units outside of prolouge generally have their growths ignored, since you do so little combat and always early promote they wont grow anyway.

 

I think the best example is that i was on the r/FE discord and people seemed to agree that ch17 was a 2 TURN CLEAR.

Basically the same as Chikis LTC. That is ridiculously unreliable and requires hitting some dumb benchmarks, like all these things.

 

After the tier list i have seen a reaction, from all the people who feel that the LTC list is dumb. They use binomials to calculate the chance a unit will hit certain benchmarks, and if the chance its under 85-90% its not reliable enough.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, joshcja said:

The 2 turn ch17 is extremely consistent.

The version they were talking about relied on camilla getting a sub 20% crit with a killer axe. They may be a more consistent version but it definitely wasn't what they meant lol

 

It was also hitting kotaro with no freeze or anything, so it was like 50% or so hit 20% crit.

Edited by Steeles4500

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11 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

The version they were talking about relied on camilla getting a sub 20% crit with a killer axe. They may be a more consistent version but it definitely wasn't what they meant lol

 

It was also hitting kotaro with no freeze or anything, so it was like 50% or so hit 20% crit.

Yeah. For purist LTC that's consistant.

You can just give Cammy doubling speed with a bronze forge otherwise.

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11 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Yeah. For purist LTC that's consistant.

You can just give Cammy doubling speed with a bronze forge otherwise.

I agree its consistent for LTC

 

..

Except this discussion was about thr reddit tier list, which is "Casual Efficiency" and isnt supposed to be an LTC list.

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3 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

I agree its consistent for LTC

 

..

Except this discussion was about thr reddit tier list, which is "Casual Efficiency" and isnt supposed to be an LTC list.

Cool. Define casual efficency for me.

Last I checked it's just a term that means "we want to be thpethial and say est's are bad"

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2 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Cool. Define casual efficency for me.

Last I checked it's just a term that means "we want to be thpethial and say est's are bad"

Basically, that is why the tier list is bad.

Some people are voting for normal play and other are voting pure ltc, so its this bizzare intersection where any unit that needs investment is bad. except when they aren't (See Jakob)

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4 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Basically, that is why the tier list is bad.

Some people are voting for normal play and other are voting pure ltc, so its this bizzare intersection where any unit that needs investment is bad. except when they aren't (See Jakob)

Every unit in LCQ requires heavy invest. Not sure why that's still a thing.

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I gave up on the Reddit list in the early stages when I realized it was based on a Corrin/Jakob speedrun. Nevermind that many units were tiered as stat backpacks more than their actual contributions.

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18 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

They use binomials to calculate the chance a unit will hit certain benchmarks, and if the chance its under 85-90% its not reliable enough.

Oh god please tell me we can finally drop the stupid bullshit that is average stats

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1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Oh god please tell me we can finally drop the stupid bullshit that is average stats

Demanding 90% confidence would just mean putting even greater weight on unit bases and exaggerating the performance of units that have extremely polarized growths. A unit with growths that were all either 80% or 20% would appear better than a unit with 50% growths across the board—the variance is smaller for the former unit, and it would take four levels to give the latter unit credit for any stat growths at all.

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Not a direct argument on any of the previous posters but more of a comment on the nature of bases/growths in fates.

Ignoring stack mechanics for a moment and assuming we need bases+growths for things.

Averages have no place in fates L. We  can know from recruitment the exact growths of every unit in every class for the entire game.

Assumed Growths/Bases tend to ignore multiclassing, mostly because it totally ruins the premise by giving an on-demand "perfect for a given value of perfect" on any given level up and by allowing manipulable bases.

In short units gain the stats we want, when we want them to. It's not the perfect control of gba seed manip, but it's good enough.

The only non-replicable units in terms of stat's rather than everyotherdamnthing are EXTREME outliers with the cap's and everyotherdamnthing to back or (Ophelia).

Edited by joshcja

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11 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Oh god please tell me we can finally drop the stupid bullshit that is average stats

Use this to do the calcs, it makes life easier https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

it goes sorta like this

lets say, what are the odds of silas getting to 16 speed by the time he is level 20.

averages tell us that he gets to 15 speed at level 20, but if we plug the numbers into binomial then he only has a 60% chance to actually proc speed 7 times in that many levels.
HE has a 91% chance to proc 5 speed,98% to proc 4 speed, etc.

this system give you a much better idea of what your chances of actually seeing a certain amount of growth over a certain amount of time actually are. If he add on a basic +4 speed early promo kaze, tonic for +2, meal for +1,and a merc reclass for +2 (lets assume the reclass is level 20 since this is just an illustration and i don't feel like doin all that math for this hypothetical thats only to illustrate the idea), then we could say that by level 20 silas has a 98% chance of being able to hit the benchmark of 21 speed.

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8 hours ago, joshcja said:

Not a direct argument on any of the previous posters but more of a comment on the nature of bases/growths in fates.

Ignoring stack mechanics for a moment and assuming we need bases+growths for things.

Averages have no place in fates L. We  can know from recruitment the exact growths of every unit in every class for the entire game.

Assumed Growths/Bases tend to ignore multiclassing, mostly because it totally ruins the premise by giving an on-demand "perfect for a given value of perfect" on any given level up and by allowing manipulable bases.

In short units gain the stats we want, when we want them to. It's not the perfect control of gba seed manip, but it's good enough.

The only non-replicable units in terms of stat's rather than everyotherdamnthing are EXTREME outliers with the cap's and everyotherdamnthing to back or (Ophelia).

Im not sure i get quite what you are saying, yes growth are fixed on join but they are still rolled through RN, all you know when you use a unit is the probability that it will grow in certain ways.

the millions of ways to stack and reclass make reaching benchmarks quite consistent tho, i agree. There are still elements of heavy rng, especially with cases such as odin where his first few levels can make him expontentially stronger or weaker.

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