Conquest tiering discussion

[Shoblongoo]

41 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Im not sure i get quite what you are saying, yes growth are fixed on join but they are still rolled through RN, all you know when you use a unit is the probability that it will grow in certain ways.

the millions of ways to stack and reclass make reaching benchmarks quite consistent tho, i agree. There are still elements of heavy rng, especially with cases such as odin where his first few levels can make him expontentially stronger or weaker.

Yeah the recurring issue I keep having with Odin (tried him again) is that if he gets on a bad streak with his first few speed growths--while statically over time that will even out--he gets to a point where he just gets doubled by everything and falls too far behind to warrant ongoing effort.

Maybe not as bad as I first made him out to be.

But I'm still finding if your looking for units that consistently do whats supposed to make them "good," hes one of the least consistent units across playthroughs.

Sometimes he gets there.

Sometimes he gets stuck on single-digit speed and drops off HARD when hes supposed to be taking off. 
_____

This may be purely anecdotal and not reflective of the experiences other players have had with him, but Odin for me is a unit that seems to being particularly susceptible to getting RNG screwed.  

Edited January 25, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[Steeles4500]

1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yeah the recurring issue I keep having with Odin (tried him again) is that if he gets on a bad streak with his first few speed growths--while statically over time that will even out--he gets to a point where he just gets doubled by everything and falls too far behind to warrant ongoing effort.

Maybe not as bad as I first made him out to be.

But I'm still finding if your looking for units that consistently do whats supposed to make them "good," hes one of the least consistent units across playthroughs.

Sometimes he gets there.

Sometimes he gets stuck on single-digit speed and drops off HARD when hes supposed to be taking off. 
_____

This may be purely anecdotal and not reflective of the experiences other players have had with him, but Odin for me is a unit that seems to being particularly susceptible to getting RNG screwed.  

ehh, if he really gets terrible growth you can always make him a DK to do what DK nyx does but not as good, or make him a sorc. Even with bad stats as long as he isnt getting doubled your fine.

most units in this game are very susceptible to falling off if they dont get decent growths later on, especially units i commonly hear about on here like arthur, odin, and even silas, as great as he is.

If consistency is the name of the game im not sure these are the best choices.

[joshcja]

2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yeah the recurring issue I keep having with Odin (tried him again) is that if he gets on a bad streak with his first few speed growths--while statically over time that will even out--he gets to a point where he just gets doubled by everything and falls too far behind to warrant ongoing effort.

Maybe not as bad as I first made him out to be.

But I'm still finding if your looking for units that consistently do whats supposed to make them "good," hes one of the least consistent units across playthroughs.

Sometimes he gets there.

Sometimes he gets stuck on single-digit speed and drops off HARD when hes supposed to be taking off. 
_____

This may be purely anecdotal and not reflective of the experiences other players have had with him, but Odin for me is a unit that seems to being particularly susceptible to getting RNG screwed.  

Mind sharing his stats,  level, and your chapter?

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

You know, Serenes Forest might need to make a newer, more accurate pairing guide. Anyone willing to do so?

[joshcja]

1 minute ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

You know, Serenes Forest might need to make a newer, more accurate pairing guide. Anyone willing to do so?

I tried once. 59 pages later I said aw heeell naw.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

1 minute ago, joshcja said:

I tried once. 59 pages later I said aw heeell naw.

Hey, at least you have some ideas someone else can use.

[Steeles4500]

Hey @joshcja 

what did you mean units will always get the stats we want when we want, are you referring to stacking?

EDIT: OK so i think i get what you meant. Reclassing means that we can change the growth seed of our units at will and therefore rig growths, or am i wrong?
Needless to say i dont think rigging is really something to be considered.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Steeles4500

[joshcja]

48 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Hey @joshcja 

what did you mean units will always get the stats we want when we want, are you referring to stacking?

EDIT: OK so i think i get what you meant. Reclassing means that we can change the growth seed of our units at will and therefore rig growths, or am i wrong?
Needless to say i dont think rigging is really something to be considered.

Yup. It's reclassing.

Even ignoring a hard rig we can just reclass on dead/really darn good levels for skills and wind up 2+ ahead on benchmark stats

[Steeles4500]

1 minute ago, joshcja said:

Yup. It's reclassing.

Even ignoring a hard rig we can just reclass on dead/really darn good levels for skills and wind up 2+ ahead on benchmark stats

Ok so how in the mother of God did your arthur outstat camilla?
I ran it through the binomials and its not even possible for him to have as much speed or def as high by her join. His raw damage output might be able to reach compareable levels at full invest but still yet the rng involved is massive. You also arent exactly able to reclass constantly early game so even with rigging you would need to spend an insane amount of time to rig the hell outta that arthur.

[joshcja]

14 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Ok so how in the mother of God did your arthur outstat camilla?
I ran it through the binomials and its not even possible for him to have as much speed or def as high by her join. His raw damage output might be able to reach compareable levels at full invest but still yet the rng involved is massive. You also arent exactly able to reclass constantly early game so even with rigging you would need to spend an insane amount of time to rig the hell outta that arthur.

What rig? He had +6/+6 from birthday/tonics/meal and was xl15.

Percy was similarly buffed, (+4/+4) holding a 1 hp Corncob, and was generated by a pair of xl15's before ch10.

Edited January 25, 2019 by joshcja

[Steeles4500]

2 minutes ago, joshcja said:

What rig? He had +6/+6 from birthday/tonics/meal and was xl15.

ok, birthday mechanic isnt allowed in "efficency" so i never considered it

also good god you must have fed him ALL the xp for him to get to promo level 15, basically every paralouge available. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Steeles4500

[joshcja]

5 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

ok, birthday mechanic isnt allowed in "efficency" so i never considered it

also good god you must have fed him ALL the xp for him to get to promo level 15, basically every paralouge available. 

No. He just soloed the right side of Percy's map.

What's promotion? This is fighter Arthur.

Edited January 25, 2019 by joshcja

[Steeles4500]

12 minutes ago, joshcja said:

No. He just soloed the right side of Percy's map.

If he classes into cav at level 8 at chapter 8 "reasonably" he can only get 3 speed levels by the time hes 20/20 (reasonable is any growth with over a 90% chance, and arthur has a sub 90% chance to get more then 3 speed procs in that time so its not reliable enough)

His stack options would be quite decent as an early percy promo but there is no way hes getting to promo level 15 by chapter 10, even with all the paralouges the xp would diminish too fast. Also on the whole child units are better left for later to recruit because then they get bases guaranteed, which is much more reliable and makes late game conquest more consistent. Camilla, paladin jakob, corrin and/or silas can wipe CQ early game regardless so rolling the dice with that much invest to get a unit like that is unnecessary. If you were gonna dump a unit all that XP it would be corrin, since she one of the more reliable units because she gets a stupid amount of levels to grow, high xp gain and all the classes you would ever want. (a +spd corrin who classes into wyvern at level 10 and promotes at 20 has a 98% chance of capping speed at both 20/x and x/20) 

Also having an overleved corrin means you have higher likelyhood to beat ryoma, get x/15 skills faster and more likely to be able to beat endgame.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Steeles4500

[joshcja]

35 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

If he classes into cav at level 8 at chapter 8 "reasonably" he can only get 3 speed levels by the time hes 20/20 (reasonable is any growth with over a 90% chance, and arthur has a sub 90% chance to get more then 3 speed procs in that time so its not reliable enough)

His stack options would be quite decent as an early percy promo but there is no way hes getting to promo level 15 by chapter 10, even with all the paralouges the xp would diminish too fast. Also on the whole child units are better left for later to recruit because then they get bases guaranteed, which is much more reliable and makes late game conquest more consistent. Camilla, paladin jakob, corrin and/or silas can wipe CQ early game regardless so rolling the dice with that much invest to get a unit like that is unnecessary. If you were gonna dump a unit all that XP it would be corrin, since she one of the more reliable units because she gets a stupid amount of levels to grow, high xp gain and all the classes you would ever want. (a +spd corrin who classes into wyvern at level 10 and promotes at 20 has a 98% chance of capping speed at both 20/x and x/20) 

It's a PMU. We're really NOT supposed to be in ChPercy that early so the exp exists. We can break things way harder than 15 at ch10 my dude.

Arthur is still xl15 fighter after ch11.

Hp 28+5/Str 17/Mag 1/Skl 15/Spd12/Lck10/Def15/Res6

After Buffs that's Str23/Spd18/Def17.

Vs base Cam's

30hp/21str/19spd/18def.

Weeeeeeeeeeeee

That entire child meta statement is wrong.

Edited January 25, 2019 by joshcja

[starburst]

4 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

This may be purely anecdotal and not reflective of the experiences other players have had with him, but Odin for me is a unit that seems to being particularly susceptible to getting RNG screwed.

I feel you, mate. It really sucks when his Speed refuses to go up.
That being said, in my last campaigns his Speed at L18/20 Sorcerer were 23, 25, 22 and 27. Go figure.
(I have been tracking his Speed and Magic during some campaigns because I am crunching some numbers related to [decisive] critical hits.)

For me, the worst 'levellers' are Niles and Xander. God, they love to get only one- or two-stat increases; like Gunther or some random soldier.
I should also note that Niles usually finishes the game at L9-13 Outlaw, and that Xander has not being used in like six months. Thus, even if we trusted my memory, I would still be judging their level-ups by a rather small sample compared to other units which are used more often and during more chapters.
I honestly believe that this reflects my experience, but I may have an unconscious bias.

[Steeles4500]

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

It's a PMU. We're really NOT supposed to be in ChPercy that early so the exp exists. We can break things way harder than 15 at ch10 my dude.

Arthur is still xl15 fighter after ch11.

Hp 28+5/Str 17/Mag 1/Skl 15/Spd12/Lck10/Def15/Res6

After Buffs that's Str23/Spd18/Def17.

Vs base Cam's

30hp/21str/19spd/18def.

Weeeeeeeeeeeee

That entire child meta statement is wrong.

oh lmao i thought you meant he was promoted level 15, im stupid.

i hold true on the child statement, some children are worth recuiting but depending on the kid it may or may not be worth rolling the dice when the games give you prepromos guaranteed. Percy has really high growths so hes a bit of an exception but id still wait to a little bit into the early game so he has higher bases. Bases> Growths, especially when looking for reliability, which i think is sorta central to a non ltc strategy anyway.

the only child imo that are worth getting early are dwyer, percy, and ophelia. Sophie may potentially be worth it if you are running a super stacked silas (which is decently common). But any kid of a parent who isnt stack to high hell is gonna be better left as a prepromo.

[Steeles4500]

2 hours ago, starburst said:

I feel you, mate. It really sucks when his Speed refuses to go up.
That being said, in my last campaigns his Speed at L18/20 Sorcerer were 23, 25, 22 and 27. Go figure.
(I have been tracking his Speed and Magic during some campaigns because I am crunching some numbers related to [decisive] critical hits.)

For me, the worst 'levellers' are Niles and Xander. God, they love to get only one- or two-stat increases; like Gunther or some random soldier.
I should also note that Niles usually finishes the game at L9-13 Outlaw, and that Xander has not being used in like six months. Thus, even if we trusted my memory, I would still be judging their level-ups by a rather small sample compared to other units which are used more often and during more chapters.
I honestly believe that this reflects my experience, but I may have an unconscious bias.

If we run those binmioals again, niles if taken to 20/20 has a 96% chance to gain 3 str and a 87% chance to gain 4 str, dropping sharply to 70% at 5 str. So with consistency we can expect him to be running a base 12-13 str before promo which isnt very good but hes not fighting too much anyway.

On the issue on Xanders speed, even with a wyvern reclass if you take him to 20 hes only likely to get 5 speed above a 90% chance, so a 20 base. He really does need speed force fed down is throat, with speedwing a a samurai/ninja pairup. His pref weapon and very high bases in other areas mean hes very consistent if you invest in him though. 

Hes sorta like a lifeline, hes always there and he will always be par, but not optimal unless you run +speed-def corrin and marry him to give him stupid amounts of stack but anybody becomes god with corrin tbf. Typically the monsters at that point will the children of units you stacked or the stacked units themselves if you got lucky with their growths. Corrin as well, ability to start with any class and get as many class as wanted through A support as well as gunters personal means corrin also has exceptional stack, but trades in ability to acess for growths so high and so many levels to grow that she becomes able to consistantly cap as a growth unit with over a 90% chance is some stats which is insane, ex. a +speed corrin has upwards of 90% chance to cap speed on almost every class.

Silas has some of the most insane stack potential in the game but he has early game bases and shaky growths so hes statistically unlikely to keep up in the lategame. Also because he gets a bunch of smaller skills instead of say, one trample, he has less to pass to his kid. I never really looked overly into sophie but coming with elbow, riposte from silas and then whatever her mom gives her while being able to S percy for wyvern or A+ velouria for fighter is quite strong, id just have to see if you could fit it in.

[starburst]

14 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

If we run those binmioals again, niles if taken to 20/20 has a 96% chance to gain 3 str and a 87% chance to gain 4 str, dropping sharply to 70% at 5 str. So with consistency we can expect him to be running a base 12-13 str before promo which isnt very good but hes not fighting too much anyway.

On the issue on Xanders speed, even with a wyvern reclass if you take him to 20 hes only likely to get 5 speed above a 90% chance, so a 20 base.

Oh!, but I think that Niles is one of the only two units (the other is Azura) that are S-tier, 'game-changers'. And Sigfried is A-tier, while Xander is high B-tier for sure. I was only saying that, in my experience, those two are the worst 'levellers' (and this is most likely influenced by not using them that often.)

 

19 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Silas has some of the most insane stack potential in the game but he has early game bases and shaky growths so hes statistically unlikely to keep up in the lategame. Also because he gets a bunch of smaller skills instead of say, one trample, he has less to pass to his kid. I never really looked overly into sophie but coming with elbow, riposte from silas and then whatever her mom gives her while being able to S percy for wyvern or A+ velouria for fighter is quite strong, id just have to see if you could fit it in.

I let Silas take the second Heart Seal and become a Mercenary early. In my experience, Hero Silas has more reliable level-ups than Paladin Silas.

A build I like is to marry Silas to Mozu, let him learn Quick Draw and then make him a Mercenary, so that he has +3 Attack from Elbow Room +4 Attack on Player Phase +3 Attack on Enemy Phase plus Vow of Faith, all before Chapter 12.
Sophie on her side inherits Quick Draw and Aptitude, and then you just let her roll. At promotion, she will already have higher (relevant) numbers than most if not all other units. Aptitude gives her versatility, since she will work in any physical class (Berserker, Wyvern, Hero, Master of Arms, Great Knight...) You just need to tell her what to do.

[Steeles4500]

33 minutes ago, starburst said:

Oh!, but I think that Niles is one of the only two units (the other is Azura) that are S-tier, 'game-changers'. And Sigfried is A-tier, while Xander is high B-tier for sure. I was only saying that, in my experience, those two are the worst 'levellers' (and this is most likely influenced by not using them that often.)

 

I let Silas take the second Heart Seal and become a Mercenary early. In my experience, Hero Silas has more reliable level-ups than Paladin Silas.

A build I like is to marry Silas to Mozu, let him learn Quick Draw and then make him a Mercenary, so that he has +3 Attack from Elbow Room +4 Attack on Player Phase +3 Attack on Enemy Phase plus Vow of Faith, all before Chapter 12.
Sophie on her side inherits Quick Draw and Aptitude, and then you just let her roll. At promotion, she will already have higher (relevant) numbers than most if not all other units. Aptitude gives her versatility, since she will work in any physical class (Berserker, Wyvern, Hero, Master of Arms, Great Knight...) You just need to tell her what to do.

Thats not a bad plan, and it still lets you use effie x arthur with an early GK promotion to get her to 7 mov. Extra gold is nice and percy is basically just beruka with growth (btw why do so many people think beruka is so good when shes outclassed by him on join seriously, shes decent but thats about it)

The differences between Paladin and Hero growths are very marginal, if anything the base speed is a bigger deal. You should dip for skills but there really is no reason to give up 2 mov for what it offers. its basically 5% growth here or there that is diffrent, it really doesn't change anything.

while corrin marrying to give pair up bonuses is nice i still think marrying jakob is the best option, as it give jakob a broken reclass of your choice and you can pass down those skills to dwyer for another high stack unit. Wyvern is the obvious option. 

While jakobs expected speed is pitiful (he only has expected 11 speed at a lvl 15 malig) his str is high and he still own early game along with silas and arthur effie can choke some point i guess. once she gets her early promo you could have an army of corrin and jakob with respective bots, percy and a bot, silas and a bot, azura and camilla which rounds out everything nicely.

picking up dwyer late is nice since he basically does jakobs job but with better bases.he can A+ percy into wyvern so it all work out if you really want it to. His growths are middling but they are servicable as a filler unit.

[starburst]

6 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

Thats not a bad plan, and it still lets you use effie x arthur with an early GK promotion to get her to 7 mov.

For me, Effie’s best classes are Berserker and Sniper. It is a walking one-hit Delete Button, as in Life-or-Death-Ophelia level of destruction, but physical.

 

6 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

The differences between Paladin and Hero growths are very marginal, if anything the base speed is a bigger deal. You should dip for skills but there really is no reason to give up 2 mov for what it offers.

Speed is the main reason, and the extra HP and Skill does not hurt, for he is my tank and I love critical hits. And as ‘situational’ as Sol and Axe Breaker may be, they are always better than Defender and Aegis. We both have already discussed movement, for me, it is not better per se.

 

6 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

while corrin marrying to give pair up bonuses is nice i still think marrying jakob is the best option […]

I will tell you how I best deal with Jakob: I kill him in Chapter 6 or, if he is lucky, he ends the game at L4-6.

See? It is easy to solve the dilemma about the prick’s growths, and seals, and marriage, and skills, and his even dumber son… and shit. I prefer that investment on Mozu or Silas or Odin or Effie or Anna or whatever. I still finish the game fine and dandy.

I do not use ‘backpacks’ at all. I find it cheap. Ten units only, all within three levels of Experience at any given point in the game (and promotion does not reset the gap, so a L10/1 is eleven levels away from L20/2.)

Edited January 26, 2019 by starburst

[Steeles4500]

5 hours ago, starburst said:

For me, Effie’s best classes are Berserker and Sniper. It is a walking one-hit Delete Button, as in Life-or-Death-Ophelia level of destruction, but physical.

 

Speed is the main reason, and the extra HP and Skill does not hurt, for he is my tank and I love critical hits. And as ‘situational’ as Sol and Axe Breaker may be, they are always better than Defender and Aegis. We both have already discussed movement, for me, it is not better per se.

 

I will tell you how I best deal with Jakob: I kill him in Chapter 6 or, if he is lucky, he ends the game at L4-6.

See? It is easy to solve the dilemma about the prick’s growths, and seals, and marriage, and skills, and his even dumber son… and shit. I prefer that investment on Mozu or Silas or Odin or Effie or Anna or whatever. I still finish the game fine and dandy.

I do not use ‘backpacks’ at all. I find it cheap. Ten units only, all within three levels of Experience at any given point in the game (and promotion does not reset the gap, so a L10/1 is eleven levels away from L20/2.)

Berkserker does give her some extra bases but you would need to find a way to get another mov point, anything lower then 7 mov is hard to justify.

Sol isnt situational at all, its one of the only good proc skills and is very consistent in its ability to prolong your life.

Well the thing with jakob vs mozu is that investing in both isnt mutually exclusive, in fact mozu is actually a really good unit if you use her right. Her sky high growths and easy paralouge means that she can get enough xp to catch up without really costing you much of any time or money. You can still go fast and have her grab kills off attack stance as a villager, and stancing with silas alot can get both of them XP and a fast S support. The cav line gives her everything she needs for early game and by now her stats lets her keep up with silas and she creates a deity level sophie, thats basically corrin level in growths but with better bases. Both are actually very consistently good if you look at the probabilities, and good mozu use doesnt really slow you down by any more then maybe one or two turns at the most.

doing it this way means she doesnt have to go archer right away so you can still use jakob. sophie can marry percy to get wyvern and fly around and get more good skills while he bots her as a berserker. Mozu can really A+ for whatever you would want and can always seal into kinshi to fly around at the second shop.

And yeah backpacks are really strong, but if were talking about a no backpack run, which is basically an attack stance only, that changes alot. Even in heavy guard stance play you still have some unpaired units just because it raises consistency of hits and breaking thresholds by a ton.

btw people saying silas is bad, heres what he can promote into at 85% binomial averages for level 13, literally as bulky as xander>

Edited January 26, 2019 by Steeles4500

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

1 hour ago, Steeles4500 said:

btw people saying silas is bad, heres what he can promote into at 85% binomial averages for level 13, literally as bulky as xander>

And look, no need to build up a weapon rank. Well, unless you feel he needs help with sword wielders.

[Steeles4500]

6 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

And look, no need to build up a weapon rank. Well, unless you feel he needs help with sword wielders.

Yeah E ranks are mostly fine, i was just using mainly a sword because he already had one and it was easy to forge one cheaply.

[starburst]

2 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

Sol isnt situational at all, its one of the only good proc skills and is very consistent in its ability to prolong your life.

I know it is not, that is why I used quotation marks. You still find people who will argue that Sol is just random.

 

2 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

And yeah backpacks are really strong, but if were talking about a no backpack run, which is basically an attack stance only, that changes alot. Even in heavy guard stance play you still have some unpaired units just because it raises consistency of hits and breaking thresholds by a ton.

I still use Guard Stance in various cases, but only among the ten units in my party, all of which have very close Experience-levels. What I do not use is early-promoted under-levelled units whose only purpose is to provide bonuses to the 'main' unit. To advance in a map, Attack Stance is a necessity for me, otherwise my ten units would be overwhelmed in various sections.

Related to this, not using 'backpacks' and only fielding ten units per map has helped me define roles. You see, I usually have Azura and one healer (Elise or Anna), two magical nukes (like Ophelia and Odin), two physical killers (like Sniper or Berserker), one anti-magic (like Kaze, Nina, Anna, Niles), and then two balanced units to be on the front lines or hold positions (like Silas, Sophie, Velouria), and finally Corrinette. In such scenario, two or three units move forward, then five units advance cleaning the area, while Azura and the healer do their things.
Yet if those five Player Phase units were instead Paladins or Wyvern Lords (or whatever mounted class you want), I argue that I would hardly be able to kill as many enemies; either because they need a bit more Strength and cannot double, or because their 2-range attack is not as powerful, or because their weapons do not cause extra damage, or because they are not that powerful at targetting Resistance, or because of their lower Critical Hit rates, or because of their skill set... And it is not that Conquest is full of wide open maps where you need to field eight powerful tanks to hold the lines.

 

2 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

btw people saying silas is bad, heres what he can promote into at 85% binomial averages for level 13, literally as bulky as xander

Only 85 %? For me it has like a 101% chance of happening. He he. That is why I rank Sigfried above Xander, without it and a dedicated 'backpack', he is just a late-joining Silas.
Read the first page of this thread.

Edited January 26, 2019 by starburst

[Steeles4500]

29 minutes ago, starburst said:

I know it is not, that is why I used quotation marks. You still find people who will argue that Sol is just random.

 

I still use Guard Stance in various cases, but only among the ten units in my party, all of which have very close Experience-levels. What I do not use is early-promoted under-levelled units whose only purpose is to provide bonuses to the 'main' unit. To advance in a map, Attack Stance is a necessity for me, otherwise my ten units would be overwhelmed in various sections.

Related to this, not using 'backpacks' and only fielding ten units per map has helped me define roles. You see, I usually have Azura and one healer (Elise or Anna), two magical nukes (like Ophelia and Odin), two physical killers (like Sniper or Berserker), one anti-magic (like Kaze, Nina, Anna, Niles), and then two balanced units to be on the front lines or hold positions (like Silas, Sophie, Velouria), and finally Corrinette. In such scenario, two or three units move forward, then five units advance cleaning the area, while Azura and the healer do their things.
Yet if those five Player Phase units were instead Paladins or Wyvern Lords (or whatever mounted class you want), I argue that I would hardly be able to kill as many enemies; either because they need a bit more Strength and cannot double, or because their 2-range attack is not as powerful, or because their weapons do not cause extra damage, or because they are not that powerful at targetting Resistance, or because of their lower Critical Hit rates, or because of their skill set... And it is not that Conquest is full of wide open maps where you need to field eight powerful tanks to hold the lines.

 

Only 85 %? For me it has like a 101% chance of happening. He he. That is why I rank Sigfried above Xander, without it and a dedicated 'backpack', he is just a late-joining Silas.
Read the first page of this thread.

I read it the first time, and my biggest issue is saying that early joins units are better then late join units on their join.

That is complete rubbish, Odin only has a 26% chance to reach Leo's base speed, a .2% chance to reach his base mag (lmao), and a 42% chance to reach his base def, If we take him 20/20. His bases and growth are not competitive at all with him, Odin has the Nos meme but he wont outstat leo on join.

Also why discount xander because he has Siegfried? Thats why hes overpowered in the first place,if you take nos away from odin hes E rank too.

And xanders bases are way better then silas. To do the same 20/20 argument again, Silas only has a chance of 11% to reach Xander def on 20/20 promo, a 50% chance to reach his speed (which is already pretty bad to begin with) and a 16% chance of getting his str. These are insanely Bad odds that they will hold up.

This is also a big reason as to why child units are so good, since they join after ch18 with a free promotion and actual base stats, and inherit nice skills from their early game fathers and mothers.