March 2019 Legendary Banner Expectations

[Mercakete]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

There is only one Naga. Any use of male pronouns is presently mistaken, barring maybe the FE3 Book 2 myth of Naga, where they are inaccurately depicted as a male warrior by humans. The Japanese I believe generally used gender neutral words describing her, which in English fan translators defaulted to changing to masculine words.

Naga lived from the golden age of dragonkind through her sacrifice creating the Falchion of Archanea and Binding Shield.

Before degeneration set in, she gave a Falchion to Mila and Duma and exiled them after a conflict with them over humanity. While fighting her degenerate brethren in Archanea and trying to save humanity there, she got word of Loptyr in Jugdral and instilled her essence in the Naga tome at the Miracle of Darna.

After death, she canonically apparently rested somewhere, perhaps in the Alterspire in another dimension- we don't know for certain because her FE11 appearance has been deemed non-canon. She then partially resurrected to help Marth in his final battle against Medeus as Nagi. Old Mystery stated Medeus was able to resurrected because Earth Dragons have great life force, Naga being the greatest dragon of all it makes sense could do the same.

Sometime after Marth saves the world, Naga fully resurrects as herself and then helps the First Exalt against Grima by reforging/attuning the Falchion (and maybe the Binding Shield) and giving them her blood, and then she sleeps again until Lucina and Chrom come to her.

Thanks for the history lesson. That actually clears up a lot of confusion. I'm a little disappointed because it seems like every great/powerful person of light is female in every fantasy realm ever and I'd thought the mold had been broken. Oh well.

Also, Naga's kind of creepy. She like...harvests her own body stuff and makes it into weapons. It's be less weird if someone else was forcibly taking it from her, but...eew...

[Lord-Zero]

17 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

"Echoes" is the game's main title in Japanese, like "Binding Blade" or "Path of Radiance". This can be noted in Heroes as every Echoes character has their game of origin listed as "ファイアーエムブレム　Echoes" and not as "ファイアーエムブレム　Echoes　もうひとりの英雄王".

This is no different from the fact that Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem: Heroes of Light and Darkness lists "ファイアーエムブレム　新・紋章の謎" as its title in Heroes.

And then an interview with the producers some time ago mentioned that they added “Echoes” to highlight that it was a remake and that it could be used for future remakes. Of course, only time will tell if they’ll use “Echoes” for another FE remake on the Switch. 

Here’s the interview bit.

Spoiler

Regarding the subtitle: “Another Hero King”*

Nakanishi: First of all, while it’s a remake of Gaiden, if we attached the word “Gaiden” to it, it would be hard to tell “which” game’s “Gaiden” it is, considering there are so many that have been released since then, compared to having had just one at the time. Next, in order to express that it is a remake, we called it Echoes, like a title from the past is “echoing” in the modern time. That way, if we were to make more remakes in the future, we figured Echoes could be a good title to use for them too, with subtitles to differentiate them. Gaiden was originally about a background main character Alm, compared to the main story and hero Marth. So we thought of contrasting titles like “Another Falchion.” In the end, though, we decided to go with “Hero King” as the theme. Though it is a title definitely associated with Marth, it made for nice contrast, and hence, “Another Hero King” made sense for Alm.

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Lord-Zero

[Anacybele]

This thread's title needs to be changed to "March 2019 Mythic Banner" since this is going to be a Mythic banner, not a legendary one. We're getting a new Mythic hero. And I know I'm not wrong on that this time. xP

Still hoping for Ashera, Ashunera, or Yune at some point if not this month!

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Still hoping for Ashera, Ashunera, or Yune at some point if not this month!

If this happens, it's confirmation that Askr is stronger than a literal goddess. XD

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

If this happens, it's confirmation that Askr is stronger than a literal goddess. XD

Uh, what do you mean?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Uh, what do you mean?

You have the power to summon and bind a goddess to fight for you, turning them into your servants basically. 

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

You have the power to summon and bind a goddess to fight for you, turning them into your servants basically. 

Okay? We were told that Mythic heroes would be gods or god-like and we got Duma who is a god. So...

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Okay? We were told that Mythic heroes would be gods or god-like and we got Duma who is a god. So...

Duma is a Divine Dragon, worshipped as a god. And he is already understood to not really be the strongest entity. 

But the act of summoning Ashera/Yune/Ashunera, it means that to summon them and bind them to our power, that means that the Askr Dragon, that created the Breidablik I believe, is more powerful than a goddess. 

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Duma is a Divine Dragon, worshipped as a god. And he is already understood to not really be the strongest entity. 

But the act of summoning Ashera/Yune/Ashunera, it means that to summon them and bind them to our power, that means that the Askr Dragon, that created the Breidablik I believe, is more powerful than a goddess. 

Well, whatever, we were still told that Mythic heroes would be god-like or gods, like I said, and the Tellius goddesses fit that bill. Besides, just about every other "god" in the series is a dragon anyway. Do we want so many of them to be dragons? I don't, that's boring. xP So bring in Tellius's goddesses and stuff.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Anacybele

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well, whatever, we were still told that Mythic heroes would be god-like or gods, like I said, and the Tellius goddesses fit that bill. Besides, just about every other "god" in the series is a dragon anyway. Do we want so many of them to be dragons? I don't, that's boring. xP So bring in Tellius's goddesses and stuff.

I always preferred the case of "god-like" dragons than actual gods. 

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I always preferred the case of "god-like" dragons than actual gods. 

But why? Having them all be dragons is a severe lack of variety.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But why? Having them all be dragons is a severe lack of variety.

Not really. Them being all dragons, that's the lack of variety. But there being no actual god, but simply god-like entities works much better. 

The concept of Ashunera/Ashera/Yune being a literal goddess only brought forth major inconsistencies in Tellius. 

[Anacybele]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really. Them being all dragons, that's the lack of variety. But there being no actual god, but simply god-like entities works much better. 

The concept of Ashunera/Ashera/Yune being a literal goddess only brought forth major inconsistencies in Tellius. 

I still don't understand how a lack of variety makes it better. What is this logic?

...What inconsistencies? The fact that Tellius decided to be different for a change and make their gods NOT dragons? So what? Tellius being different makes it neat and more original.

Look, I just don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the Tellius goddesses in this game.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Anacybele

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I still don't understand how a lack of variety makes it better. What is this logic?

...What inconsistencies? The fact that Tellius decided to be different for a change and make their gods NOT dragons? So what? Tellius being different makes it neat and more original.

Look, I just don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the Tellius goddesses in this game.

You should reread what I said. What I am saying is that it's better to have "god-like entities" rather than actual gods. It's just that we've been at a case where most godlike entities have been dragons simply, which is a lack of variety. 

The inconsistency is what a god can do and how a godlike entity can also do.

When you have a goddess in Tellius be said to have created everything from nothing, the land, the creatures, etc. it gives a nice telling of her power. But then when the powers get depicted, you cannot help but notice many inconsistencies and things that really don't make sense.

Now, entities that simply possesses godlike abilities, it's easy to make guesses and theories for power inconsistencies or just understand that they aren't true gods. But when you slap the title of "actual god" on there, being unable to perform feats and abilities other can makes it rather bad in comparison.

Ashunera is a goddess that created all life from nothing. Cannot revive the dead for some reason.

Mila is a Divine Dragon. Can restore people to life. 

See the issue? 

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

You should reread what I said. What I am saying is that it's better to have "god-like entities" rather than actual gods. It's just that we've been at a case where most godlike entities have been dragons simply, which is a lack of variety. 

The inconsistency is what a god can do and how a godlike entity can also do.

When you have a goddess in Tellius be said to have created everything from nothing, the land, the creatures, etc. it gives a nice telling of her power. But then when the powers get depicted, you cannot help but notice many inconsistencies and things that really don't make sense.

Now, entities that simply possesses godlike abilities, it's easy to make guesses and theories for power inconsistencies or just understand that they aren't true gods. But when you slap the title of "actual god" on there, being unable to perform feats and abilities other can makes it rather bad in comparison.

Ashunera is a goddess that created all life from nothing. Cannot revive the dead for some reason.

Mila is a Divine Dragon. Can restore people to life. 

See the issue? 

And I'm saying BECAUSE most god-like characters in FE are dragons, your preference can't work.

No. Because I don't see what the problem is with different gods/entities having different powers. Why must each god or god-like entity all have the same powers? That's boring.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Anacybele said:

And I'm saying BECAUSE most god-like characters in FE are dragons, your preference can't work.

No. Because I don't see what the problem is with different gods/entities having different powers. Why must each god or god-like entity all have the same powers? That's boring.

No, my preference does still work. Because it's still a godlike entity, not a true god. Ashunera being a true goddess is interesting, yes, but before Echoes came out, Gaiden had Duma and Mila be actual gods back then. So Ashunera isn't truly "new". 

*facepalms* You're... completely missing the point I'm making.

When you have a literal goddess here, that is said to have capable of performing these feats, when you start to analyze things that they couldn't do, you realize they really don't work. In fact, what you're saying is a rather poor argument.

Ashunera, by all means, SHOULD have the power to revive the dead. But she doesn't. 

For a god-like entity, it makes sense when there are limitations to their abilities. For a literal goddess that creates things from nothing, not so much. A goddess should, by all means, be capable of anything that lesser entities have been able to. 

And before you point out the thing about Yune saying that gods aren't perfect, this isn't the same thing.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, my preference does still work. Because it's still a godlike entity, not a true god. Ashunera being a true goddess is interesting, yes, but before Echoes came out, Gaiden had Duma and Mila be actual gods back then. So Ashunera isn't truly "new". 

*facepalms* You're... completely missing the point I'm making.

When you have a literal goddess here, that is said to have capable of performing these feats, when you start to analyze things that they couldn't do, you realize they really don't work. In fact, what you're saying is a rather poor argument.

Ashunera, by all means, SHOULD have the power to revive the dead. But she doesn't. 

For a god-like entity, it makes sense when there are limitations to their abilities. For a literal goddess that creates things from nothing, not so much. A goddess should, by all means, be capable of anything that lesser entities have been able to. 

And before you point out the thing about Yune saying that gods aren't perfect, this isn't the same thing.

Then I have no idea what point you're trying to make at all and you're just continuing to confuse me.

I will not agree that your preference works. God-like characters can be considered Mythic, but not actual gods? This doesn't even make sense to me regardless of the Tellius goddesses.

So please stop complaining about my desire to see them.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Anacybele

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But when you slap the title of "actual god" on there, being unable to perform feats and abilities other can makes it rather bad in comparison.

Not all gods are the omnipotent Supreme Being God With a Capital G of real-life Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It is not necessary for a god to have every power.

In particular, most gods in polytheistic religions are explicitly not omnipotent and even have human-like flaws in their abilities and character.

[Silafante]

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not all gods are the omnipotent Supreme Being God With a Capital G of real-life Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It is not necessary for a god to have every power.

In particular, most gods in polytheistic religions are explicitly not omnipotent and even have human-like flaws in their abilities and character.

It depends in how do you see gods.

For me Ashunera is the goddess with no limit to her power but Yuna and Ashera are not "gods" like their union, only part of one, that is why both parts are so weak even though they are "goddess of chaos and order respectably".

And falliable gods like Greeks or similar have limits, but those limits are much higher than most of the things we see in Fire Emblem.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Silafante

[omegaxis1]

47 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Then I have no idea what point you're trying to make at all and you're just continuing to confuse me.

I will not agree that your preference works. God-like characters can be considered Mythic, but not actual gods? This doesn't even make sense to me regardless of the Tellius goddesses.

So please stop complaining about my desire to see them.

Um... Yeah, you entirely missed my point. I wasn't regarding Mythic Banners when I started talking about my preferences. Apparently, you didn't understand.

So I'll rephrase my point.

It would have been better if Ashunera was not a true goddess, but rather a godlike ENTITY. 

You are assuming that godlike = another dragon, which is incorrect because that's how Fire Emblem has been with most of its godlike entities. I am saying that I prefer godlike over actual gods in Fire Emblem. 

Do you get it now?

 

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not all gods are the omnipotent Supreme Being God With a Capital G of real-life Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It is not necessary for a god to have every power.

In particular, most gods in polytheistic religions are explicitly not omnipotent and even have human-like flaws in their abilities and character.

The issue isn't about the case of how it was with Ashunera. Ashunera was by all indications to be powerful enough to create life from nothing. She didn't just create life, but apparently the continents themselves, as the planet was just water. This is all impressive. So why is it that Ashunera suddenly ends up being incapable of performing feats other entities have been able to do, like bring the dead back to life? If she can create life from nothing, restoring life should be easy. Or unflooding the planet. But she couldn't do either?

Her personality being flawed is okay. Her powers being inconsistent is not.

If non-gods like Naga, Duma, and Mila can perform things a literal goddess cannot, it makes little sense, as she should be capable, if not more so. After all, the dragons are just using incredibly advanced and powerful magic. 

[Ice Dragon]

53 minutes ago, Silafante said:

It depends in how do you see gods.

For me Ashunera is the goddess with no limit to her power but Yuna and Ashera are not "gods" like their union, only part of one, that is why both parts are so weak even though they are "goddess of chaos and order respectably".

Nowhere is it said that Ashunera had no limit to her power. In fact, the fact that she cannot resurrect the dead is a clear limitation.

 

53 minutes ago, Silafante said:

And falliable gods like Greeks or similar have limits, but those limits are much higher than most of the things we see in Fire Emblem.

Who determined the arbitrary power level at which one has a limit "high enough to be a god"? Is that limit 9000? If your power level is 8999, are you not a god?

 

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The issue isn't about the case of how it was with Ashunera. Ashunera was by all indications to be powerful enough to create life from nothing. She didn't just create life, but apparently the continents themselves, as the planet was just water. This is all impressive. So why is it that Ashunera suddenly ends up being incapable of performing feats other entities have been able to do, like bring the dead back to life? If she can create life from nothing, restoring life should be easy. Or unflooding the planet. But she couldn't do either?

It is not uncommon for fantasy gods to have specific deficiencies in their powers. For example, a god of creation may lack the capacity to destroy, or in extreme cases, may even lack the capacity to intend to destroy.

The ability to create life is not the same as the ability to resurrect life, and the ability to create life is not the same as the ability to create any lifeform. It is known that Ashunera did not create the Beorc and the Laguz; rather, they evolved from the Zunanma.

You are starting from your own assumptions, assuming your own assumptions are correct, and finding contractions against your own assumptions. And then you are using that to argue that there are contradictions in the story's lore, which is a non sequitur jump.

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not all gods are the omnipotent Supreme Being God With a Capital G of real-life Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It is not necessary for a god to have every power.

In particular, most gods in polytheistic religions are explicitly not omnipotent and even have human-like flaws in their abilities and character.

This post 100%, yeah.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It is not uncommon for fantasy gods to have specific deficiencies in their powers. For example, a god of creation may lack the capacity to destroy, or in extreme cases, may even lack the capacity to intend to destroy.

The ability to create life is not the same as the ability to resurrect life, and the ability to create life is not the same as the ability to create any lifeform. It is known that Ashunera did not create the Beorc and the Laguz; rather, they evolved from the Zunanma.

You are starting from your own assumptions, assuming your own assumptions are correct, and finding contractions against your own assumptions. And then you are using that to argue that there are contradictions in the story's lore, which is a non sequitur jump.

The problem with this is that the existence of limitations on this goddess, despite how she is able to wipe out all life apparently and can destroy the world, you begin to wonder what the deal is. We've already seen Ashera is somehow able to bring back the dead as corpses with no soul. Yet why is the completed self incapable of reviving the dead? 

Also, I'm not making assumptions. I'm using information that was used in actual Fire Emblem. Nothing of what I said was actual contradictions of my own logic or making baseless assumptions. 

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The problem with this is that the existence of limitations on this goddess, despite how she is able to wipe out all life apparently and can destroy the world, you begin to wonder what the deal is. We've already seen Ashera is somehow able to bring back the dead as corpses with no soul. Yet why is the completed self incapable of reviving the dead? 

She clearly has no influence over the realm of the dead and cannot call back the souls of the dead to return them to their bodies. This is a common theme in polytheistic religions where those in the realm of the living have no power over the realm of the dead.

 

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, I'm not making assumptions. I'm using information that was used in actual Fire Emblem. Nothing of what I said was actual contradictions of my own logic or making baseless assumptions. 

You assume she is omnipotent without it ever being mentioned that she is omnipotent, and this assumption is being made because you see that she has a lot of strong powers. However, "having a lot of strong powers" does not logically imply "having all powers".

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

She clearly has no influence over the realm of the dead and cannot call back the souls of the dead to return them to their bodies. This is a common theme in polytheistic religions where those in the realm of the living have no power over the realm of the dead.

Yeah, exactly. Saying Ashunera should have power over the dead is like saying Zeus should have as well despite that Hades, his brother, already is the god of the dead. Gods are typically a god over one or two things, not a lot of things or everything. Hades is the god of the dead. Hel is his FE equivalent. They have power over the dead.

Poseidon is the god of the sea, so he has powers over water.

Thor is the god of thunder, so he has thunder powers and that hammer of his.

And so on. Ashunera is the goddess who created the Tellius world, equivalent to gods like the Zelda ones who created their world. They can't revive the dead either. Ashunera ~ Din, Nayru, and Farore, more or less.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Anacybele