Let's end this once and for all. (MAJOR SPOILERS)

[Timlugia]

26 minutes ago, timon said:

You can justify literally everyone in every route, and I mean literally.

Ingrid, Annette or Mercedes ones were just stupid and completely unconvinced.

Why would someone worked her whole life to bring her father home for her mother, suddenly choose to kill her father instead? It's against her central arc.

It's like having Lucina turned against Chorm, or Tiki kills Marth and Bantu under her own will.

Quote

Have you talked to everyone in the temporary barracks before SS Chapter 12? Everyone there gives you their reason for staying with Edelgard. Even the deeply religious ones (Mercedes and Marianne) tell you that while they still believe in the Goddess they don't like what Rhea's doing with the faith

But Edelgard was not just hostile to Rhea, also to the goddess concept itself. She stated goddess was false and vile, even in her less aggressive words with Byleth she insisted to use "so called goddess" to emphasis her stance. I doubt highly devote characters like Mercedes could follow her, consider she even planned to join Knights of Seiros.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Timlugia

[CyberNinja]

2 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Ingrid, Annette or Mercedes ones were just stupid and completely unconvinced.

Why would someone worked her whole life to bring her father home for her mother, suddenly choose to kill her father instead? It's against her central arc.

Tell you what? I'll get around to doing Black Eagles Edelgard again, I'll recruit everyone,  and let you know?

[VoilaNota]

13 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

I think it's an issue that results from the choice between the houses coming way too soon. You know next to nothing about the the three Lords when you make the choice, so IS had to throw in the church route for anyone who wasn't down to help conquer Fodlan with Edelgard. As a result, they spread themselves very thin, and each route suffered for it. Silver Snow is the only one that doesn't have a real Lord, so its flaws are probably the most noticeable. This is especially true if you've already played Golden Deer. What IS should have done to set up the choice is this. 

1. Don't immediately make Byleth a professor. Instead, he/she gets inducted into the Knights of Seiros along with Jeralt at the start, which is a much more reasonable place for Rhea to place a mercenary who seems to lack any emotions whatsoever. The first few chapters or so don't have Byleth following any one Lord, but he/she occasionally joins one of them on a mission inbetween typical Knights of Seiros duties. This is also where you would start building up the player's knowledge of each Lord's goals to hopefully make the choice between them more meaningful. 
2. The first year passes, and Rhea now offers Byleth the opportunity to become a professor since they're one professor short for the next year. It should be easy enough to justify since the students can't shut up about how great Byleth is most of the time. This is where the choice from the beginning of the game comes in, and ideally, the player should have enough information by this point to make an educated decision on what they're in for on each route. There's one more option, however. Byleth can decline and continue as a Knight of Seiros which would lead to the Church route. In this version of it, Byleth would not have the Black Eagles students along for the ride. Most of the information about Nabateans and what not would be exclusive to this route instead of shared with Golden Deer. GD would properly center around Claude and his ambitions without being dragged down by the Church's plotline too. The other two routes would be mostly unchanged in function. 

IS should have set up the routes more like the endings in SMT games where you sort of build toward it from the beginning, but the decisive choice is later on in the narrative. Choices don't feel like they matter if you have hardly any idea what you're in for. It would also make it so Silver Snow isn't considered the "bad ending" when picking Edelgard since it wouldn't be connected to her gameplay-wise. 

I thought about something to solve this too. My version would be that only half the students are in a house to begin with. So for example:

Black Eagles: Edelgard, Hubert, Linhardt, Petra

Blue Lions: Dimitri, Dedue, Felix, Mercedes

Golden Deer: Claude, Lorenz, Hilda, Lysithea

In Chapter 1, you are assigned as an assistant professor who gets to choose 4 out of the remaining 12 students. Then for Ch 2, Edelgard and Hubert join your party for a mission, Ch 3 you join Claude, Lorenz, and Hilda for a mission, and Ch 4 you join the Blue Lions for a mission. Chapter 5 is the mock battle in which you choose your house, and the other 8 students you didn't pick in Ch 1 are split between the other two houses. This could be done by given every student a first and second choice for house (these are just examples): Dorothea BE, GD ; Caspar BE, BL ; Ferdinand BE, GD ; Bernadetta BE, BL ; Ingrid BL, BE ; Ashe BL, GD ; Annette BL, GD ; Sylvain BL, BE ; Ignatz GD, BE ; Marianne GD, BE ; Leonie GD, BL ; Raphael GD, BL. From Chapter 5 on you can support with the other students and eventually recruit them minus the retainers like in the actual game.

 

[LegendOfLoog]

18 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I like this framework, but my concern is that Byleth's relationship with the main Lord impacts their (the Lord's) decisions during and after the timeskip, and makes their reunion that much more significant. What if instead of a full year, Jeralt and Byleth get conscripted I MEAN voluntarily join the Knights of Seiros over a sort of (3-month) "summer break"? You get three months to go into maps with Jeralt, take lessons from Catherine, have Seteth scrutinize you, etc. before the "school year" (actually 9-months) starts and you get to choose a house to lead (or to stay with the Knights). This way, getting appointed a teacher becomes believable, you get to bond with your house members, and the "school phase" stays the same length as in the original game. Thoughts?

That sounds pretty good. I do think that if you go with this setup, then each house needs to have a designated "I want to bail" moment right before the timeskip which would just send you back to the Church route. That's kind of what Crimson Flower has already, but I could see reasons for ditching Dimitri and Claude too. When Dimitri starts flipping out, I could see Byleth not exactly being comfortable with that. Alternatively, Claude not so subtly hints he's not a big fan of the Church, but maybe the player is and decides to ditch him. 

Another way I could see resolving this is to have just the House Leaders come during the summer break for some kind of training directly under the Knights of Seiros before the school year. That way, you get more interactions between the three Lords, something that's sorely missing in the first part, and the choice makes more sense because you've had more time to get to know them. As long as you either a) have a way to leave the route if you don't want to follow it anymore or b) have an idea of what you're getting into beforehand, I think it would be better than what the game currently has, which is neither. Ideally, you'd have both, but one or the other would be a welcome improvement.

@VoilaNota I don't know if I'd split up the characters who come from specific countries into different houses, but I like the idea of a gradual increase. You get like 8 kids all thrown at you at once, and in every story scene, you get to hear about their gimmick mostly (Caspar is hot-headed, Lindhardt is sleepy, etc.) Maybe spreading out their join time a bit would help with that and give them the opportunity to actually contribute something beyond one-liners. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[Crysta]

35 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

I forgot about that, but in-universe I think (especially after outing herself as The Immaculate One at the Battle of Garreg Mach) she would just transform at the first sign of trouble and trivialise any conflict she was a part of (or at least call in her giant machines as she does in CF) so I still think she'd be too powerful to have with you. Part of the reason I'm hoping for prequel DLC is that she'd be weak enough (and lack "Rhea's" resources) to be playable.

Eh, giving the party a legendary/OP member for the last map isn't an entirely new concept for Fire Emblem Athos anyone?

Nemesis and the Elites themselves aren't pushovers. They've fought her before and know her gig - I suspect she actually preferred fighting him in her human form for a reason (maybe just to avoid rampant collateral damage but she does that in the monastery cutscene ANYWAY so idk lol). You simply adjust the power scaling on the baddie side... which is already kind of ridiculous.

[VoilaNota]

 

20 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

That sounds pretty good. I do think that if you go with this setup, then each house needs to have a designated "I want to bail" moment right before the timeskip which would just send you back to the Church route. That's kind of what Crimson Flower has already, but I could see reasons for ditching Dimitri and Claude too. When Dimitri starts flipping out, I could see Byleth not exactly being comfortable with that. Alternatively, Claude not so subtly hints he's not a big fan of the Church, but maybe the player is and decides to ditch him. 

 

For me the natural branch points are:

Black Eagles: Like in the game, go with Edelgard or default to Church. If you stick with Edelgard, late game you get the choice to team up with TWSITD or reform and team up with Claude (maybe even Dimitri?) against them.

Blue Lions: Have pre-skip support conversation with Dimitri that leads him to meet you at monastery after timeskip. If not, default to Church at this point. If you stuck with Dimitri you get an option lategame to either save and recruit Claude (potentially leading to reconciliation with Edelgard), or join Rhea to fight the Empire.

Golden Deer: A few chapters after timeskip, choose to ally with Empire or Kingdom. Somehow get them both to ally against TWSITD if you meet requirements.

So maybe if you meet certain markers in each route (learning about Duscur, Death Knight identity, true history, etc.) you could get a golden ending with all 3 lords or something. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by VoilaNota

[Timlugia]

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Eh, giving the party a legendary/OP member for the last map isn't an entirely new concept for Fire Emblem Athos anyone?

Nemesis and the Elites themselves aren't pushovers. They've fought her before and know her gig - I suspect she actually preferred fighting him in her human form for a reason (maybe just to avoid rampant collateral damage but she does that in the monastery cutscene ANYWAY so idk lol). You simply adjust the power scaling on the baddie side... which is already kind of ridiculous.

Honestly, Byleth is pretty OP anyway since time skip, along with Seteth, Lysithea, or Ingrid. Having Rhea at this point isn't going to be much different gameplay wise

[daisy jane]

52 minutes ago, timon said:

my god why is this argument still running around.

You can justify literally everyone in every route, and I mean literally. Hell, even the one that can't actually happen, even Seteth has some reasons to join CF.

As for Ferdinand, he straight up tells you why he's there and why he's convinced. He knows his father wasn't a good man, and he admires Edelgard and takes pride in his role, therefore he decides to stick with her to be her advisor and make up for his father's missdoings. If you ask me it's even a better reasoning than going against her just because he's supposed to hate her (which is not the case if you read the supports) and she took his father's power (which Ferdie knows he uses wrongly).

I know that - however in other instances, Ferdinand isn't really keen on how Edelgard does it even knowing how his father wasn't that good - and that's why he endevours to better himself. I truly feel it is an argument to be made because (for me personally) Edelgard's ideals isn't purely "let's just make Fodlan' a better peaceful place, no crests y'all." it's about bringing the empire to it's former glory, it's working with people who have really poor intentions, - so it's just more of a "hmm." for me. While we can justify everyone in every route - i also feel there are times where we can't. (which is why i really ienjoy it). 

49 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

I forgot about that, but in-universe I think (especially after outing herself as The Immaculate One at the Battle of Garreg Mach) she would just transform at the first sign of trouble and trivialise any conflict she was a part of (or at least call in her giant machines as she does in CF) so I still think she'd be too powerful to have with you. Part of the reason I'm hoping for prequel DLC is that she'd be weak enough (and lack "Rhea's" resources) to be playable.

@daisy jane: Have you talked to everyone in the temporary barracks before SS Chapter 12? Everyone there gives you their reason for staying with Edelgard. Even the deeply religious ones (Mercedes and Marianne) tell you that while they still believe in the Goddess they don't like what Rhea's doing with the faith.

no i know - I just mean. i think..how to articulate this properly. 
with marianne and Mercedes yah they don't like what Rhea is doing with the faith, but i just find it weird (because you sort of get this in regards with Claude and a hell of a lot  with Emo-itri - the questioning of the Lord, and if she's doing the right thing, and questioning if this is the right thing to do). and I don't feel that's really there with Edelgard's path. (yes, it can be argued that's what paths 1-3 are for). but it's more of "yah. church bad, Edel's good." but  i truthfully don't remember (i'm re-playing CF now, so i'll try to take note again) anyone saying - while Edelgard is right (to stand up for the church) - Edelgard was wrong in how she was doing everything or wanting to reunify Fodlan. Again in the other paths - it sort of happens because the other two lords die. in CF- Claude abdicates (or you kill him), and Edelgard executes Dimitri 

and i'll argue (to be fair) I'm surprised there aren't more 'splits" in other paths too. like. I don't get why Felix doesn't just go. "I'm done with this crap." in blue lions until dimitri gets his head back on straight etc etc. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

44 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Another way I could see resolving this is to have just the House Leaders come during the summer break for some kind of training directly under the Knights of Seiros before the school year. That way, you get more interactions between the three Lords, something that's sorely missing in the first part, and the choice makes more sense because you've had more time to get to know them. As long as you either a) have a way to leave the route if you don't want to follow it anymore or b) have an idea of what you're getting into beforehand, I think it would be better than what the game currently has, which is neither. Ideally, you'd have both, but one or the other would be a welcome improvement.

I really like the sound of this! Maybe the first three chapters, you could control Byleth, Jeralt (as sort of a Jagen), the three Lords, and their respective retainers. That way, you could get to know the "exclusive" characters, maybe even get their C-supports, before committing to any one one house. Instead of a "Inter-House Practice Battle", the end of Month 4 could see your combined squad practice against some (scaled-down) Church units, like Shamir and Cyril. Then Months 5 and 6 could go as usual, and then you pick a house!

[LegendOfLoog]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I really like the sound of this! Maybe the first three chapters, you could control Byleth, Jeralt (as sort of a Jagen), the three Lords, and their respective retainers. That way, you could get to know the "exclusive" characters, maybe even get their C-supports, before committing to any one one house. Instead of a "Inter-House Practice Battle", the end of Month 4 could see your combined squad practice against some (scaled-down) Church units, like Shamir and Cyril. Then Months 5 and 6 could go as usual, and then you pick a house!

Even better. That would also go a long way in making Jeralt's death slightly less obvious. Maybe even add some actual supports to him to help flesh out his and Byleth's relationship and get some more backstory on the two. The best part is that the change doesn't displace the main plot very much at all, and pretty much everything that's there already could stay as is. I'm not sure what IS would do for the opening chapters, but I think it would be a good idea to have one chapter in each country. That would be a good place to begin in showing the lords' ideologies, and even more importantly, their reactions to the other lords. 

55 minutes ago, VoilaNota said:

So maybe if you meet certain markers in each route (learning about Duscur, Death Knight identity, true history, etc.) you could get a golden ending with all 3 lords or something. 

I would rather avoid a golden ending, personally. I don't necessarily mind it, but I struggle to see how Dimitri and Edelgard would ever agree with each other even if all of the animosity between them was gone. And Claude doesn't really want to be in Fodlan anyway, so if he doesn't think the other two will help him accomplish his goals, it makes sense to just bail on Fodlan. Then again, the main reason I dislike it is because TWSITD would have to become more important in a golden ending, and I think they're probably the weakest faction narratively. 

Also, I would kind of like it if the main decision Byleth gets to make is who to throw their lot in with. I'm fine with the Lords making their own decisions during the post-skip and just relying on Byleth for their power and position as the Enlightened One. Silver Snow tried to focus on Byleth, but doing that with a silent protagonist didn't end well imo. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yes. By all means. Let's.

Oh I thought this would be the debating grounds for whether they should patch in the big gay for Claude to satisfy fans. I guess I'll wait a couple days for the next thread on that subject to appear.

[Crysta]

20 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Yes. By all means. Let's.

Oh I thought this would be the debating grounds for whether they should patch in the big gay for Claude to satisfy fans. I guess I'll wait a couple days for the next thread on that subject to appear.

are you just trying to derail a constructive thread because you're bored or what?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

13 minutes ago, Crysta said:

are you just trying to derail a constructive thread because you're bored or what?

This thread whose title indicates nothing about what the topic is? I wasn't expecting rails to begin with. What did you think it was before coming here?

[Crysta]

 

3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

This thread whose title indicates nothing about what the topic is? I wasn't expecting rails to begin with. What did you think it was before coming here?

I actually read something beyond the title, but I realize sometimes it's just too difficult to bother.

Enjoy waiting for the thread you thought this was.

EDIT: Re-titling this 'route re-write' or something isn't a terrible idea though.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Crysta

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

EDIT: Re-titling this 'route re-write' or something isn't a terrible idea though.

See? Thanks for agreeing.

[Osrio12]

1 hour ago, LegendOfLoog said:

I would rather avoid a golden ending, personally. I don't necessarily mind it, but I struggle to see how Dimitri and Edelgard would ever agree with each other even if all of the animosity between them was gone. And Claude doesn't really want to be in Fodlan anyway, so if he doesn't think the other two will help him accomplish his goals, it makes sense to just bail on Fodlan. Then again, the main reason I dislike it is because TWSITD would have to become more important in a golden ending, and I think they're probably the weakest faction narratively. 

 

This all the way. Dimitiri literally tries this in Azure Moon and it goes about as well as you can expect. I like how Three Houses shows that sometimes you can't just have an ending be all sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes there are just two people in the world who no matter what happens cannot coexist. Basically the opposite of Fates where if you try really, really hard then you too can somehow end centuries of hatred and still get in bed with your well-endowed big sister.

Sorry, I got sidetracked, screw Fates.

[Crysta]

Ooo I can use this as a springboard for another complaint:

I don't actually like that Byleth seems to have so much influence on the moral compass of many characters. I know it's easier to write, but it doesn't really mirror real life that well. Get a group of people, have them debate a controversial political topic, and it easily splits into two or three camps usually determined by personal biases. And the discussion very rarely changes anyone's minds lol.

The Black Eagles should have a solid opinion on what their leader is trying to do, and it shouldn't change dependent on what you choose. The Church characters/route at least got this part right... somewhat. 

[LegendOfLoog]

22 minutes ago, Osrio12 said:

This all the way. Dimitiri literally tries this in Azure Moon and it goes about as well as you can expect. I like how Three Houses shows that sometimes you can't just have an ending be all sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes there are just two people in the world who no matter what happens cannot coexist. Basically the opposite of Fates where if you try really, really hard then you too can somehow end centuries of hatred and still get in bed with your well-endowed big sister.

Sorry, I got sidetracked, screw Fates.

The worst thing about Fates to me (or one of them) is that the setup for the choice is completely false anyway. None of these people are related to you (except Azura, lol), so the whole setup is a lie from the start just so the player can S rank whoever they want. Why even center a choice on that if you're just going to pull the rug out from under the player anyway? Well, whatever. I just really don't like the idea of golden endings in the first place, especially in Fire Emblem, because it almost always results in some ham-fisted twist where the real Bad Guy(TM) is revealed. That doesn't make much sense in a game about war. These people should not have such flimsy reasons to fight that one more enemy would change that, and thankfully in Three Houses, they don't. I really hope the story DLC doesn't make this statement false. 

31 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Ooo I can use this as a springboard for another complaint:

I don't actually like that Byleth seems to have so much influence on the moral compass of many characters. I know it's easier to write, but it doesn't really mirror real life that well. Get a group of people, have them debate a controversial political topic, and it easily splits into two or three camps usually determined by personal biases. And the discussion very rarely changes anyone's minds lol.

The Black Eagles should have a solid opinion on what their leader is trying to do, and it shouldn't change dependent on what you choose. The Church characters/route at least got this part right... somewhat. 

Totally agree. I think it's like this in part because of the Recruitment system since pretty much anyone is up for grabs in most routes. I do think it's weird though that even some of the Church characters aren't safe. If you don't recruit Hanneman and Manuela in Azure Moon, they show up as enemies in Dimitri's paralogue. How is it that on the same route, the only thing that determines whether we're fighting them or not is if you press Recruit, basically? This is true of Alois as well on Crimson Flower. It doesn't make sense that Alois is simultaneously going to uphold his promise to Jeralt or not based on a single press of a button. Shamir I can forgive since she doesn't seem to care much either way. 

The students get the worst of it though. Felix says that they've been looking for Dimitri for five years in BL, but if you recruit him in GD, he just gives up on him. Why? The exact same scenario occurs in both routes, but Byleth being good with a sword is enough to change Felix's mind? It's a concession made for gameplay reasons, but I really think they should have had more route-locking because some characters just don't make sense in certain routes. 

[PrincessAlyson]

I like the route overall. Most of the scenes fit it more than GD. But... I wanted Rhea to be the playable Lord character. That's the main thing I wish was changed!

[DefyingFates]

11 hours ago, PrincessAlyson said:

But... I wanted Rhea to be the playable Lord character. That's the main thing I wish was changed!

While a small part of me is worried that she won't be the Lord per se, I still think she'll be playable in the DLC. Fingers crossed!

[Nihilem]

Well I was of the opinion that the church route was unnecessary and it would be better to salvage the few differences it has and give it to azur moon. And therefore give us a proper Crimson Flower with some actual TWSITD Interactions. (And Demonic Beasts as allied siege weapons ....)

 

But playable Rhea would change my opinion a lot i think. I always liked the concept of manakete characters and was quite sad that our playable manakets cannot turn into dragons....

Lorewise you could nerf them by saying that they cannot constantly stay in their dragon form (because of corruption etc) and gameplaywise it could be implemented by replacing the strategem option. So that you have to choose between having a goon squat with you or turning into a dragon for one round (maybe 2-3 charges). Then also give that abillity to Seteth and Flayn and I am happy.

Oh maybe in Crimson Flower you could also add the abillity of turning your units temporally into Demonic Beasts. Like Edelgard did to herself at the end of Azure Moon.

 

[PrincessAlyson]

2 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

While a small part of me is worried that she won't be the Lord per se, I still think she'll be playable in the DLC. Fingers crossed!

I would love that. Fingers crossed indeed.

40 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

I always liked the concept of manakete characters and was quite sad that our playable manakets cannot turn into dragons....

Lorewise you could nerf them by saying that they cannot constantly stay in their dragon form (because of corruption etc) and gameplaywise it could be implemented by replacing the strategem option. So that you have to choose between having a goon squat with you or turning into a dragon for one round (maybe 2-3 charges). Then also give that abillity to Seteth and Flayn and I am happy.

That's a great idea. I must admit I was bummed that Seteth and Flayn never showed their dragon forms and Rhea's was only in cutscenes or as a boss. They could make it like the Tellius games (which unfortunately I have not gotten to play yet) where there's a meter that shows how long they can stay transformed before reverting to their human selves. It would add some more strategy to the game since you'd have to decide when to transform them and how to utilize their power before they turn back.