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Let's make subpar units much better together

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Hi,

This topic was created to share our experience with units that aren't Ryoma/Xander in their base class/set. Feel free to suggest builds you've tried for units that aren't amazing usually and that worked.

I'll start with:

Ninja Hinata: it lowers his str GR to 40%, but it increases his skl GR, base and his def res by 5%, + master ninja gives insane res/spd base and he can get swords back. In my hard Rev run, I made Hinata a ninja at base (marry corrin) and with MU backpack he nearly soloed the top and the right of the map (ninja village). I gave him +2 bronze shuriken not to start with 2 MT. It took turns but after that he was lv 14 nearly 15 and his bulk alongside his spd went up by 2 points each (HP included) and strength too, while he gained like 3 skill and 2 luck. He can also marry Kagero and get her str pair up bonus (magic boon MU...not optimal but it still worked).

Swordie Feliciakob: early strong riposte/elbow room+vantage+swordfaire+life and death, just need a 1-2 weapon. Until you get a levin sword for Felicia, it's best to go for a d-rank 1-2 weapon. Felicia can also get swordie from Hana, leaving her open for onmyoji marriage and magic +2 + tomefaire. Requires gold and My castle abuse though. For casual players (not efficiency). Easy ennemy phase reckage (and player phase too lol).

Your turn, post your builds that worked well for you. Please no talking of efficiency value and who this seal could go to instead of this one. Only tell us your uncommon builds and how it works if it's not self-sufficient.

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Arguments can be made for Spear FIghter HInoka. I mean Pegasi are fragile. Soldiers are decidedly not as fragile. And besides, I just want this woman to exist.

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Xander and Ryoma are not stellar units, it is their weapons what breaks the game. Send Siegfried to the convoy and Xander is just a worse Silas in every aspect.

Nothing crazy:

· Mechanist Anna, re-classed into Apothecary right upon recruitment. Stronger than Kaze, more than enough Magic to wield the Shining Bow and the Flame Shuriken, and immune to magic.

· Sniper Effie or Kinshi Effie. Either re-classed directly through Mozu or after some levels as an Outlaw through Niles.
· Berserker Effie.

· Dark Night Nina with Elise or +Mag Cornflakes as her mama.

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5 minutes ago, starburst said:

Xander and Ryoma are not stellar units, it is their weapons what breaks the game. Send Siegfried to the convoy and Xander is just a worse Silas in every aspect.

In fairness, as they ARE the only ones that can use them, I'd consider them part of their package. It ain't like the Hero's Relics in 3 Houses where while a unit with the right Crest can make the best use of them, anyone can use them (albeit with non-Crest wielders taking damage). And unless you're doing a challenge run, you probably are going to keep them in their inventory anyway because they benefit from the stat boost even if they don't (or can't) use them.

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On 10/1/2019 at 6:44 AM, starburst said:

Xander and Ryoma are not stellar units, it is their weapons what breaks the game. Send Siegfried to the convoy and Xander is just a worse Silas in every aspect.

Funny how that's not how it works in Warriors... until you get the weapon scrolls.

I find Xander to have some decent defence with or without Seigfried and Ryoma makes an okay Grandmaster, but I wish he had a better Magic stat. With or without Rajinto, he's still quite powerful with skills such as Astra and Ignis.

Anyway...
Dread Fighter Mozu is pretty good. She has nicely balanced stats and can certainly take a few hits. However, I didn't use her enough in that run so she doesn't seem as powerful as my main units.
General Percy is really good too. With an already high defence and access to skills such as Sol (inherited from Arthur) and Rally Defence (from the Wyvern Lord class) makes him a solid unit that can also pass his defensive abilities to his allies.
I also gave Kaden Great Master and Keaton Hero (and I will later give him Berserker). I suspect they will do quite well, given the stats they already have.

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17 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said:

I find Xander to have some decent defence with or without Seigfried and Ryoma makes an okay Grandmaster, but I wish he had a better Magic stat. With or without Rajinto, he's still quite powerful with skills such as Astra and Ignis.

By the time Xander appears, Silas and Sophie are already promoted and proficient in at least two weapons, Silas already has skills from and access to his wife's and Kaze's class trees, and bonuses from supports with other party members.
Xander is not a bad unit, but he is certainly not needed. The hype actually comes from Siegfried.

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1 hour ago, starburst said:

By the time Xander appears, Silas and Sophie are already promoted and proficient in at least two weapons, Silas already has skills from and access to his wife's and Kaze's class trees, and bonuses from supports with other party members.

Not if you don't use the other two enough. ESPECIALLY in Conquest, where grinding is IMPOSSIBLE without DLC. Xander already has good stats when he initially joins. And don't get me started on 0% growth runs.

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20 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said:

Not if you don't use the other two enough.

So, in this world of yours, Flora is better than the great majority of the cast because by the time she joins everyone else might well have 0 Experience points if they had not been used enough. Interesting.

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4 hours ago, starburst said:

So, in this world of yours, Flora is better than the great majority of the cast because by the time she joins everyone else might well have 0 Experience points if they had not been used enough. Interesting.

Flora? I only got her in Revelation and I still didn't use her enough, which means she is only at Lv 10-15 while Xander, along with other royal units, have gone past Lv. 20 and are getting Eternal Seals.

I don't play Conquest.

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On 10/9/2019 at 10:39 PM, starburst said:

By the time Xander appears, Silas and Sophie are already promoted and proficient in at least two weapons, Silas already has skills from and access to his wife's and Kaze's class trees, and bonuses from supports with other party members.
Xander is not a bad unit, but he is certainly not needed. The hype actually comes from Siegfried.

Siegfried and good base stats, you mean. Because frankly, having good growths is nice and all, but good bases are more important when it comes to unit quality. Just look at Donnel. You rarely see people defend him as being worth raising despite him having good growths.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

good base stats,

He has terrible base speed, literally being doubled by 9 units in his recruitment chapter. The next chapter that number jumps to 28 (38 if we add in reinforcement), unless he got 4 speed levels on his recruitment chapter. Speed is one of the most important stats, and if your bases are low enough to get you doubled, that is not a good place to be.

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10 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

He has terrible base speed, literally being doubled by 9 units in his recruitment chapter. The next chapter that number jumps to 28 (38 if we add in reinforcement), unless he got 4 speed levels on his recruitment chapter. Speed is one of the most important stats, and if your bases are low enough to get you doubled, that is not a good place to be.

Just how many of those do anything resembling damage to him, though??

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two of them can one round him, three can't damage, two can deal 1 on player phase, one deals 3 a hit, and two deal 6. If all you wanted was a wall, you get Benny three chapters earlier.

Edited by Eltosian Kadath

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Siegfried and good base stats, you mean. Because frankly, having good growths is nice and all, but good bases are more important when it comes to unit quality. Just look at Donnel. You rarely see people defend him as being worth raising despite him having good growths.

If that logic were true, Mozu and Birthright!Hayato wouldn't have a chance!

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5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

two of them can one round him, three can't damage, two can deal 1 on player phase, one deals 3 a hit, and two deal 6. If all you wanted was a wall, you get Benny three chapters earlier.

If only two of them are a danger to him, I don't see the fuss. It ain't like we are talking about Raphael in 3H, who is more likely to get doubled and isn't exactly shrugging off those hits. And woe to him if he's unlucky enough to get attacked by a mage... Also, Xander is practically immune to critical hits, in addition to matching up well against Berserkers.

4 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said:

If that logic were true, Mozu and Birthright!Hayato wouldn't have a chance!

Yeah, well, I don't see very much praise for those two. The former ends up having to compete with Takumi in two routes assuming you make her an archer (which costs a heart seal that imo could have been put to better use), and the latter has accuracy issues, which ain't good when you're also underleveled.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeah, well, I don't see very much praise for those two. The former ends up having to compete with Takumi in two routes assuming you make her an archer (which costs a heart seal that imo could have been put to better use), and the latter has accuracy issues, which ain't good when you're also underleveled.

Mozu doesn't have to be an Archer. You can make her a Master of Arms (or Dread Fighter with DLC/Multiple Paths) and she won't have to compete with Takumi. Alternatively, she and Takumi may work together.

Hayato, on the other hand, can still be a great Onmyoji or Oni Chieftain. If you can grind him enough in the Bottomless Canyon, you can get him in line with your other units. His accuracy problems don't seem to bother me much, as his attack is already massive and you can give him upgraded, high-accuracy weapons to make up for that.

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11 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

He has terrible base speed, literally being doubled by 9 units in his recruitment chapter. The next chapter that number jumps to 28 (38 if we add in reinforcement), unless he got 4 speed levels on his recruitment chapter.

 

11 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

two of them can one round him, three can't damage, two can deal 1 on player phase, one deals 3 a hit, and two deal 6. If all you wanted was a wall, you get Benny three chapters earlier.


People do not see these shortcomings because when they say “Xander” they actually mean “Xander plus Siegfried plus Speed Wings plus Resistance Talismans plus a dedicated Speed-Strength ‘backpack’ (like L10/1 Berserker Charlotte.)” Moreover, they do not even consider this as “favouritism” but “being efficient.” Yet, if you dare to give a Heart Seal to Mozu or a Magic Dust to Odin, you are automatically and undoubtedly “wasting resources.”

Xander himself is always a nice addition to your party on common campaigns, no doubt about it. On more restrictive campaigns, however, his shortcomings are evident.

Xander joins late, meaning that his role in the party must be fulfilled by others during the previous ten chapters. And that is more than enough time for these units to level-up and gain weapon levels and class-change and learn diverse skills and get supports and marry and raise & class-change kids.

Xander joins over levelled on a rather easy map when the rest of the team is class-changing (has just class-changed), thus there are no incentives to use him. On the next chapter (Ninja Cave) he is super useful for new players but, again, if you remove Siegfried and hand him a Javelin like everyone else, his defence and attack will be the equal to that of his teammates who had been playing the same role (not to mention that one only needs to hold the Ninja Parade for three turns during the entire chapter, everything else is rather simple, and Xander has no edge over the boss). By Chapter 18 every party member is at Level 4-5 like Xander, and without his magical sword and with his very low Speed he has no advantage over other front liners here. Nor does he have a real edge on them on Chapter 19, or on 20 or 22 or 23 or 24 or 25 or 26 or 27. (On 21 and Endgame he can activate the much needed Dragon Veins, that is true.)

Xander’s role is way more contested on more restrictive campaigns where his assets are evenly compared to those of other front liners. Again, he is always welcome, specially by new users, but he is certainly not necessary.

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Weapons are part of the package. One of the reason Orlandu is considered the poster boy for overpowered whings is that he joins whit an Excalibur he happens to be very good at using. And you cannot even give Siegfried to someone else, so using a Javelin is shoting yourself in the foot to make a point. Not having to deal whit crappy 1-2 non dagger weapons is one of the main reasons Ryoma and Xander are so highly regarded. 

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14 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

And you cannot even give Siegfried to someone else, so using a Javelin is shoting yourself in the foot to make a point.

It is precisely because of Siegfried’s exclusivity that sending it to the convoy is a fairer way to compare Xander to other units on the same role. After all, we will never know how good could, say, Silas be if he could wield it.

Making the game easier is not a goal for many of us. That is why we create challenges to test our abilities and have more fun.

I will not try to convince you about playing one of these challenges, but I and others in this thread can tell you that Conquest on Hard and Lunatic can be completed without Xander (or any other pre-promote fo that matter) without problems. Thus, however high regarded he and Siegfried may be, they can be perfectly replaced by other units. And I am not talking about a specific Cornflakes build or skill-buying or path-bonuses or early DLC-clases or that shit, but about the exact same units available early in the game.

- “Have you seen how broken Camilla is a Wyvern Lord in Chapter Z?” - Gee, I do not use pre-promotes.

- “Have you seen the broken bonuses that an early Berserk Charlotte grants to other units?” - Gee, I do not use “backpacks.”

- “Have you seen how broken this unit is as an early Dread Fighter/ Polaris/ Witch?” - Gee, I do not use DLC classes before Level 20.

- Have you played Lunatic Conquest with ten units only, no pre-promotes, no backpacks, no grinding, no path bonuses? - Can you do it without Guard Stance?

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A game is not balanced on self imposed challenges. Magikarp is terrible on no evolution runs but very good on Nuzlelockes for example. As everyone puts whatever restictions they want is senseless to describe how anything work in "restrictive campaigns" 

Is he also worse than Silas on 0% growth runs or no promotion runs? 

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5 hours ago, starburst said:

People do not see these shortcomings because when they say “Xander” they actually mean “Xander plus Siegfried plus Speed Wings plus Resistance Talismans plus a dedicated Speed-Strength ‘backpack’ (like L10/1 Berserker Charlotte.)” Moreover, they do not even consider this as “favouritism” but “being efficient.” Yet, if you dare to give a Heart Seal to Mozu or a Magic Dust to Odin, you are automatically and undoubtedly “wasting resources.”

 Xander himself is always a nice addition to your party on common campaigns, no doubt about it. On more restrictive campaigns, however, his shortcomings are evident.

Xander joins late, meaning that his role in the party must be fulfilled by others during the previous ten chapters. And that is more than enough time for these units to level-up and gain weapon levels and class-change and learn diverse skills and get supports and marry and raise & class-change kids.

 Xander joins over levelled on a rather easy map when the rest of the team is class-changing (has just class-changed), thus there are no incentives to use him. On the next chapter (Ninja Cave) he is super useful for new players but, again, if you remove Siegfried and hand him a Javelin like everyone else, his defence and attack will be the equal to that of his teammates who had been playing the same role (not to mention that one only needs to hold the Ninja Parade for three turns during the entire chapter, everything else is rather simple, and Xander has no edge over the boss). By Chapter 18 every party member is at Level 4-5 like Xander, and without his magical sword and with his very low Speed he has no advantage over other front liners here. Nor does he have a real edge on them on Chapter 19, or on 20 or 22 or 23 or 24 or 25 or 26 or 27. (On 21 and Endgame he can activate the much needed Dragon Veins, that is true.)

Xander’s role is way more contested on more restrictive campaigns where his assets are evenly compared to those of other front liners. Again, he is always welcome, specially by new users, but he is certainly not necessary.

I don't give Xander any of that, yet he still puts in work. Also, disregarding weapons (in this case Siegfried, which no one else can use) is misguided, so trying to ignore it just to make a point is doing naught but shooting yourself in the foot.

7 hours ago, WeAreNewcastle1053 said:

Mozu doesn't have to be an Archer. You can make her a Master of Arms (or Dread Fighter with DLC/Multiple Paths) and she won't have to compete with Takumi. Alternatively, she and Takumi may work together.

Hayato, on the other hand, can still be a great Onmyoji or Oni Chieftain. If you can grind him enough in the Bottomless Canyon, you can get him in line with your other units. His accuracy problems don't seem to bother me much, as his attack is already massive and you can give him upgraded, high-accuracy weapons to make up for that.

Sure, except pretty much anyone can be good as a Dread Fighter. Which begs the question of why make Mozu one when anyone else can be as good or better than her as one. 

Perhaps. But to be frank, I find most mages lackluster in this game for one reason or another.

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7 hours ago, Flere210 said:

A game is not balanced on self imposed challenges [...] As everyone puts whatever restictions they want is senseless to describe how anything work in "restrictive campaigns" 

Is he also worse than Silas on 0% growth runs or no promotion runs? 

It is not senseless to evaluate a particular phenomenon within defined, reproducible conditions. We do it all the time in science.

I will tell you what is senseless: We both agree on Xander’s being a good unit. But between you and I, I am the only one who have used him without Siegfried and who has replaced him by other units on multiple campaigns. Therefore, you may give me the benefit of the doubt and trust my word when I say that he does not shine without Siegfried and that he can be replaced in Hard and Lunatic without issues. Or you can try it for yourself and come back with your own conclusions. Otherwise it is my experience across many campaigns against just your suppositions and ideas. And I am at a clear disadvantage for it is way more difficult to prove something than it is to doubt it.


I have not played Conquest on 0 % growths because it reduces the gameplay to extreme low manning and favouring the pre-promotes, while I like playing with diverse units at the same levels. But Xander and Siegfried would most likely be the core in the third part of the game.

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On 10/11/2019 at 6:05 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Xander is practically immune to critical hits, in addition to matching up well against Berserkers.

If Xander had more speed he would match well against Berserkers, as barring the three in his join chapter, the other nine in standard maps all double the average level 20 Xander with a speedwing, and even with his high defense this means he dies to two enemy attacks as long as one is melee and capable of doubling, which puts him in the same numbers of enemies needed to kill him as many faster, but frailer, units and as long as those faster units have swords they probably dodge better than Xander and have a higher survival chance. With that low speed he will have a hard time killing without a lot of help (although to be fair he has enough strength to make for a good attack stance unit, although GK Effie does it better). That sword makes him an fine unit, but he needs some extra speed like

14 hours ago, starburst said:

“Xander plus Siegfried plus Speed Wings plus Resistance Talismans plus a dedicated Speed-Strength ‘backpack’ (like L10/1 Berserker Charlotte.)”

to really be a top tier unit like everyone acts.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Which begs the question of why make Mozu one when anyone else can be as good or better than her as one. 

Who are suggesting would be better?

 

8 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Is he also worse than Silas on 0% growth runs or no promotion runs? 

Not that I have seen.

 

51 minutes ago, starburst said:

I have not played Conquest on 0 % growths because it reduces the gameplay to extreme low manning and favouring the pre-promotes, while I like playing with diverse units at the same levels. But Xander and Siegfried would most likely be the core in the third part of the game. 

In case you are curious I stumbled upon a  Lunatic Conquest 0% growth, clear all enemies run

 

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