Most irritating/boring maps in Fire Emblem?

[NinjaMonkey]

On 10/8/2019 at 8:38 PM, NinjaMonkey said:

Radiant Dawn Chapter 1-9. I understand that it is for story reasons that Micaiah is the only character available, but all that experience going to waste on the Black Knight still annoys me.

I can't believe I forgot to mention Chapter 27 in PoR. The actual chapter itself is fine, it's just that if you want Nasir (like I do), you have to defeat the Black Knight in the second part of the chapter. This is easier said than done, seeing as the entire fight is limited to ten exchanges, and the entire fight is entirely luck-based, seeing as Ike needs to activate Aether at least once in order to win, and failure to do so means restarting the entire chapter (usually getting worse level-ups in the process).

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I've never found seal skills to be annoying. Mostly because every time I see anything that threatens to reduce my stats, I see it as a challenge of "how do I fight this opponent so that doesn't happen?", and then I do it.

The issue is, you have a cast where most units are either too slow, too weak, or both to feasibly one-round enemies. Even if you do have such a unit, odds are you still have other factors working against you, like accuracy.

[Alastor15243]

12 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The issue is, you have a cast where most units are either too slow, too weak, or both to feasibly one-round enemies. Even if you do have such a unit, odds are you still have other factors working against you, like accuracy.

My armies have always done fine there.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I can't believe I forgot to mention Chapter 27 in PoR. The actual chapter itself is fine, it's just that if you want Nasir (like I do), you have to defeat the Black Knight in the second part of the chapter. This is easier said than done, seeing as the entire fight is limited to ten exchanges, and the entire fight is entirely luck-based, seeing as Ike needs to activate Aether at least once in order to win, and failure to do so means restarting the entire chapter (usually getting worse level-ups in the process).

Now that you mention it, I agree - the chapter itself ain't too bad, but the obvious difference in quality between Nasir and Ena just makes getting him preferable.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

My armies have always done fine there.

Still, being blown out of position with lowered stats has to be some of the most sadistic crap the franchise has ever pulled, even more so than being unable to save between chapter 27 and endgame (which applies to all routes) and the fact that Petra's and Bernadetta's paralogue has the game outright lie to you. Or the many gimmicks of Revelation's maps. Which is saying a hell of a lot, really.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Still, being blown out of position with lowered stats has to be some of the most sadistic crap the franchise has ever pulled, even more so than being unable to save between chapter 27 and endgame and the fact that Petra's and Bernadetta's paralogue has the game outright lie to you. Or the many gimmicks of Relvelation's maps. Which is saying a hell of a lot, really.

Petra and Bernadetta's is worse than all of those by a major margin. At least when Conquest maps fuck you over, it's after they gave you a chance to have a good strategy.

[samthedigital]

Quote

Now that you mention it, I agree - the chapter itself ain't too bad, but the obvious difference in quality between Nasir and Ena just makes getting him preferable.

If you're playing reasonably quickly you will not notice the difference. Their movement and transformation problems (demi band will only exacerbate their problems with damage output) are enough to render them useless when they are actually available. It's also possible to beat the BK without Aether; Wrath works, but there are several ways to deal with the Black Knight. It's hard to find good resources on skill mechanics, and it's not really the right topic to talk about it, so I will refrain from going into any further details.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Petra and Bernadetta's is worse than all of those by a major margin. At least when Conquest maps fuck you over, it's after they gave you a chance to have a good strategy.

The game lying to me is one thing, but I cannot - and will not - downplay the game actively trying to sabotage me, which is what the wind does. In comparison, the worst Petra and Bernadetta's paralogue does is Hubert with Meteor... Which he will likely immediately use on one of the NPC units that you can spawn. That pales in comparison to a stage where I'm fighting the game as much as, if not more so than, the enemy units.

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

If you're playing reasonably quickly you will not notice the difference. Their movement and transformation problems (demi band will only exacerbate their problems with damage output) are enough to render them useless when they are actually available. It's also possible to beat the BK without Aether; Wrath works, but there are several ways to deal with the Black Knight. It's hard to find good resources on skill mechanics, and it's not really the right topic to talk about it, so I will refrain from going into any further details.

Wrath could work, but I would say it has a huge opportunity cost. Personally, I'd give it to someone who has range for more than 2 chapters. 

[samthedigital]

Quote

Wrath could work, but I would say it has a huge opportunity cost. Personally, I'd give it to someone who has range for more than 2 chapters.

I'll pm you so that we don't need to further clog this topic.

[Shadow Mir]

^Fair enough.

Getting back on topic, chapter 2-2 in Radiant Dawn. Fog of war with half of your units being laguz, which got nerfed to hell, and you only have two good fighters, Lucia being one of them. It doesn't help that the fog has some nasty surprises that can catch you out, like Killer Lance soldiers and a bowgun using warrior (this is the first time you run into these in the game, too; this isn't helped by the fact that one of the units who must survive is a flying unit, more specifically, a bird laguz, which has no night vision, which was alluded to in the previous game).

Edited November 8, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Alastor15243]

15 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The game lying to me is one thing, but I cannot - and will not - downplay the game actively trying to sabotage me, which is what the wind does. In comparison, the worst Petra and Bernadetta's paralogue does is Hubert with Meteor... Which he will likely immediately use on one of the NPC units that you can spawn. That pales in comparison to a stage where I'm fighting the game as much as, if not more so than, the enemy units.

Why does the wind bother you so much? The wind tells you where it's going to send you. It's challenging you to be clever with unit placement and flexible about your turn-to-turn plans. Foreign Land and Sky, on the other hand, isn't interested in testing your skill. It just wants you to die.

[Interdimensional Observer]

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Why does the wind bother you so much? The wind tells you where it's going to send you. It's challenging you to be clever with unit placement and flexible about your turn-to-turn plans.

It does tell you where it's all going, but only for the current turn. The game doesn't forecast the entire fixed pattern at once, and most people aren't going to realize it isn't random, nor memorize the pattern.

It doesn't feel like its a fun challenge, even if careful use of the wind does make for some good- like getting next to Hayato/blowing away his bodyguards on Lunatic to get him before he can Hexing Rod anyone. The wind forces you to scramble your units around very frequently, hoping you can squeeze everyone out of an undesirable current zone, it's annoying.

The Wind Tribe is part of CQ's "Hoshido invasion midgame agony". The Ninja Den of Evil, the Kitsune hide-and-go-cheap, the Wind Tribe ride, and the endless staircase. Once you approach the capital of Hoshido- Sakura's Fort Jinya clash, my most loathed part of CQ passes, and the rest is a better cut.

[Alastor15243]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The Wind Tribe is part of CQ's "Hoshido invasion midgame agony". The Ninja Den of Evil, the Kitsune hide-and-go-cheap, the Wind Tribe ride, and the endless staircase. Once you approach the capital of Hoshido- Sakura's Fort Jinya clash, my most loathed part of CQ passes, and the rest is a better cut.

Everyone says they hate the ninja cave, which is a dang shame because it's one of my favorite maps in the series. I don't get shy people think it's bad.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Alastor15243

[Interdimensional Observer]

23 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Everyone says they hate the ninja cave, which is a dang shame because it's one of my favorite maps in the series. I don't get shy people think it's bad.

Keeping Saizo alive for the danged Speedwing (why can't it be a Secret Book?) is one thing. Another is the enemies being very fast and dodgy, debuffing and poisoning, 1-2 ranged, and throw in a few reinforcements that might muck things up too. Monoclass/semi-monoclass maps aren't exactly uncommon in FE, and the Kitsune are worse than Kotaro's Ninjas. But why can't they be Bandits instead? Ninjas are a pestilence in such big numbers and I want my Takumi-sama!😱

Having a lot of good Axe and Bow units would very much help here, but even with the excellent Camilla, and Shura if you didn't pick the Boots, one can easily not have enough of these two weapon types for this map. Okay, you can throw an adequately (as in higher than enemy Atk even with Def debuffing) Def-buffed Xander and Effie/Benny as good units too.

 

I will say that my first playthrough of CQ, blind on Hard and Classic with no grinding of any kind, was exhilarating. The maps were fresh, everything felt new, I didn't know what would await me as I pushed on and on. Each map was brutal, but I drank every victory as though it were water after three days lost in the Sahara.

The adrenaline rush of challenge faded on subsequent plays of CQ. The world and combat lost its novelty and luster, and knowing everything that lay before me, my mind became more fixed on the bothersome portions of the campaign. I've had my only CQ Lunatic file still sitting at Hinoka 2 for months if not a year, I should look forward to it with five fine Wyverns to turn her menacing gales in my favor, but at the same time, I dread the tug of war between gusts and calm air, buttressed by legions of Kinshi and Pegasi.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Alastor15243]

31 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Keeping Saizo alive for the danged Speedwing (why can't it be a Secret Book?) is one thing. Another is the enemies being very fast and dodgy, debuffing and poisoning, 1-2 ranged, and throw in a few reinforcements that might muck things up too. Monoclass/semi-monoclass maps aren't exactly uncommon in FE, and the Kitsune are worse than Kotaro's Ninjas. But why can't they be Bandits instead? Ninjas are a pestilence in such big numbers and I want my Takumi-sama!😱

 

Dragon veins are your friend, my friend. You can easily lure Saizo through the doorways and lock him in the treasure room where he can't get himself killed, and they're also helpful to buy time against the ninja hordes.

[Shadow Mir]

19 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Why does the wind bother you so much? The wind tells you where it's going to send you. It's challenging you to be clever with unit placement and flexible about your turn-to-turn plans. Foreign Land and Sky, on the other hand, isn't interested in testing your skill. It just wants you to die.

Because it is an overtly intrusive gimmick. Even most of the gimmicks in Revelation didn't feel like blatant middle fingers being shoved up my ass. Add the pestilence that is seal skills that require you to one-round the enemy to avoid the detrimental effects of (which can be a tall order if your units got screwed), and is it any wonder why I think it's one of the worst things to ever happen to the Fire Emblem series?

[Alastor15243]

34 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because it is an overtly intrusive gimmick. Even most of the gimmicks in Revelation didn't feel like blatant middle fingers being shoved up my ass.

How is that an improvement? Even the most assholish of gimmicks in Conquest served the purpose of making the level more difficult. The gimmicks in Revelation all served to make the maps more tedious. I feel Fire Emblem games are at their absolute worst when they refuse to give you either an intense, thought-provoking challenge, or fast-paced, mindless fun.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

How is that an improvement? Even the most assholish of gimmicks in Conquest served the purpose of making the level more difficult. The gimmicks in Revelation all served to make the maps more tedious. I feel Fire Emblem games are at their absolute worst when they refuse to give you either an intense, thought-provoking challenge, or fast-paced, mindless fun.

Far as I'm concerned, what you just posted describes Winds of Change to a T. All the wind did was make the map tedious with a capital T, and seal skills just made it a hellhole.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: Just like Winds of Change? Because what you just posted is perfect for describing it, far as I'm concerned. All the wind did was make the map tedious with a capital T, and seal skills just made it a hellhole.

I honestly feel like we were playing different maps. It's really not that hard to reach one-rounding capacity against these guys. Like I said, most of my army could do it by that point. And the winds were instrumental to making the map what it was. I loved the curve-balls it threw at me, and the moments where I figured out how to use the winds to my advantage (which were numerous) were incredibly satisfying. How does it make the map tedious when it doesn't do anything to make it take longer to get to enemies?

[hidewari]

Haven't seen anyone mention Marianne's paralogue yet. It wasn't horrifically difficult but I found myself rushing through it when I would have liked to spend more time farming materials from the beasts. Maybe my strategy wasn't up to par but the amount of beasts on that map quickly overwhelmed me.

Since FE16 is fresh in my mind, Miklan's map on maddening was also an absolute nightmare. Gilbert triggering the archers in the centre of the map made every single enemy on the map, with the exception of Miklan, start to move, so by the time you got to the top you had a horde of units to beat on top of the sword reinforcements with Pass. It was pretty much impossible to do unless Gilbert suicided at the beginning.

Also, I'm seeing a lot of people mention FE4 maps. Honestly, I went into FE4 expecting to hate the huge maps but it ended up being one of my favourite things about the game. The size of the maps really brought the narrative of every chapter to scale, in my opinion. Every event felt significant and impactful and having to traverse the terrain the way you did really made it feel like every chapter was integrated into the geography of Jugdral. I suppose it was more of a narrative thing for me.

[De Geso]

10 hours ago, hidewari said:

Haven't seen anyone mention Marianne's paralogue yet. It wasn't horrifically difficult but I found myself rushing through it when I would have liked to spend more time farming materials from the beasts. Maybe my strategy wasn't up to par but the amount of beasts on that map quickly overwhelmed me.

Since FE16 is fresh in my mind, Miklan's map on maddening was also an absolute nightmare. Gilbert triggering the archers in the centre of the map made every single enemy on the map, with the exception of Miklan, start to move, so by the time you got to the top you had a horde of units to beat on top of the sword reinforcements with Pass. It was pretty much impossible to do unless Gilbert suicided at the beginning.

Also, I'm seeing a lot of people mention FE4 maps. Honestly, I went into FE4 expecting to hate the huge maps but it ended up being one of my favourite things about the game. The size of the maps really brought the narrative of every chapter to scale, in my opinion. Every event felt significant and impactful and having to traverse the terrain the way you did really made it feel like every chapter was integrated into the geography of Jugdral. I suppose it was more of a narrative thing for me.

Move Marianne north. The monsters can't attack her inside the structure.

I prefer Miklan's map when the enemies do move. It's harder, sure, but otherwise it plays just like Chapter 8 of FE6 which is horrible.

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/8/2019 at 3:22 PM, Alastor15243 said:

I honestly feel like we were playing different maps. It's really not that hard to reach one-rounding capacity against these guys. Like I said, most of my army could do it by that point. And the winds were instrumental to making the map what it was. I loved the curve-balls it threw at me, and the moments where I figured out how to use the winds to my advantage (which were numerous) were incredibly satisfying. How does it make the map tedious when it doesn't do anything to make it take longer to get to enemies?

Because the wind is about as useful to you as Counter was in Awakening (ergo, almost never), whereas it's something you always need to keep track of to avoid getting screwed over. Like stated before, map gimmicks that screw with your positioning tend to be awful, and this is no exception. I'd sooner think that you just got lucky if most of your units were capable of consistently one-rounding at that point, too. If you're masochistic enough to enjoy it, more power to you, but I'm not. I'd rather play a map that at least has the integrity to come at me from the front, which this one is not.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Tolvir]

Unpopular opinion

Most of FE4s maps. Rarely do I play a game that makes me fall asleep, but that one did it. I have yet to sit down and play the game without starting to yawn and fall asleep as I play. Similar feel with Thracia. Idk what it is. I can play plenty of older games just fine, but these two for some reason. Maybe its the muddier color palette.

As far as specifics go, Most irritating goes to two maps in particular for me. The Laguz maps from Radiant Dawn, the 2 Dawn Brigade ones. Especially in the swamp. Ill take doing the bridge over that any day of the week.

And more recently, Three Houses Chapter 13. Its just an irritating mess every time. Have yet to enjoy this map.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Chapter 4 of Genealogy (some spoilers follow).

Spoiler

 

First you have to move everyone northeast, through forests, to face mages and pegasus knights. This part is actually a decent challenge, if a bit slow for your horses. I like how the bandits challenge you to progress quickly.

Then you reach the bridge. You probably don't know that Dew opens the bridge, or you let him die. In which case, time to have Sigurd walk ALL THE WAY AROUND, on a route that is itself borderline secret.

You beat the boss, and then what? Not only do you have to backtrack ALL THE WAY BACK to the home castle, but you get to watch Mahnya and company get massacred. Don't try to help, because there's a Silessian mage (one of your "allies", whom I headcanon as a secret partner to Pamela's dirty tricks) blocking your route. If you use the Return ring or staff, which is sensible, you get to spend a few turns doing... absolutely nothing.

Finally, in the last part of the map, you fight some fairly interesting enemies, including Lamia. ...On a totally empty field, with basically no terrain options whatsoever. Also there's a chance the pegasus gang just wrecked one of your captured castles, because screw you.

Forget to have Lewyn visit his Mom, and you're locked out of getting Forseti forever. Let Erinys cuddle up to Lewyn, and you're locked out of Horseti forever.

Finally the music, while not bad, is less impressive than that of the surrounding chapters (2 and 3 feature some of the best tracks in the series, IMO).

 

There you go.

[CyberController]

Chapter 17 of conquest. Do you like annoying, quick enemies that can debuff you? Why not have several?

 

 

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/2/2019 at 6:39 PM, Tolvir said:

And more recently, Three Houses Chapter 13. Its just an irritating mess every time. Have yet to enjoy this map.

Would I be correct in assuming you're talking about on routes aside from Crimson Flower?