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Sid Starkiller

So I FINALLY did Silver Snow...Wow...

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2 hours ago, Mikethemaster2018 said:

You can save someone and still give no hoots about them. But Rhea is overally not bad person she twisted in the head though. She made some terrible and horrible decision but hey at least she learns her way of thinking was worng. In SS. I think at best Rhea care for them a bit but at the end of the day Rhea knows they are bindly loyal to her, if she said off this kid or mother or father they will do it no questions ask, they are her kid soilders in a sense. I mean by her not giving a hoot is because in CF finally battle if they fall in battle Rhea doesn't even mourn their death. She just like fuck'em 

Best description I've heard of Rhea is that she's (paraphrased) a "high functioning mess that's one bad day from losing it, and we see that bad day in Crimson Flower." 

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Do we know for sure that the Elites died with Nemisis? From all I've seen its stated they fought for Nemisis but its never said they didn't survive the war. For all we know they surrendered after the Tailtean plains, switched side mid battle or some drifted into Rhea's camp before the final clash with Nemisis. 

Well they fight alongside Nemesis in Verdant Wind so presumably whatever happened to him that let him revive also happened to them.

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4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well they fight alongside Nemesis in Verdant Wind so presumably whatever happened to him that let him revive also happened to them.

Alternatively they could have just robbed their graves. Or maybe they're more like clones than zombies. Them all being revived at the same time doesn't mean they died at the same time. I think that if the Elites all died then the history books would have mentioned that but as lies saying they died as martyrs for Seiros. 

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19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Alternatively they could have just robbed their graves. Or maybe they're more like clones than zombies. Them all being revived at the same time doesn't mean they died at the same time. I think that if the Elites all died then the history books would have mentioned that but as lies saying they died as martyrs for Seiros. 

The fact that there's no reliable answer to this question means there's probably no actual answer as to what happened to them. The writers simply didn't care. I can't imagine Rhea would let them live though. Even ten thousand years later she's not entirely over the whole "genociding her people and turning their bones into weapons." Letting their kids live seems absolutely her style though. After all the descendents of the elites are allied with the church in the modern day (and even enjoy some whitewashed history).

Edited by Jotari

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4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Do we know for sure that the Elites died with Nemisis? From all I've seen its stated they fought for Nemisis but its never said they didn't survive the war. For all we know they surrendered after the Tailtean plains, switched side mid battle or some drifted into Rhea's camp before the final clash with Nemisis. 

Yes, because even in the Church, it's actually that the Elites were also fallen heroes with Nemesis. This is actually mentioned in Ingrid/Seteth and Ignatz/Slayn supports.

Quote

Flayn: Long ago, in a world ravaged by war, Cethleann led a secluded life with her father, Cihol. One day, they met Saint Seiros, who was greived by the chaos and destruction of war. And so, the three decided to join forces.

Ignatz: Huh? But I thought the saints gathered following a revelation from the goddess.

Flayn: At the Battle of Tailtean, they fought against the 10 Elites led by Nemesis, who sought to conquer the whole world... Cethleann tended to her allies on the field of battle, until she exhausted all her strength. Then, she fell into a long slumber.

-

Seteth: Ingrid. Are you familiar with the story of the King of Liberation, and the 10 Elites of Fódlan?

Ingrid: Of course! They were the heroes who struck down evil with the power of the sacred weapons, protecting our land and people. Their strength was passed down through the ages, manifesting itself in the Crests some of us are born with.

Seteth: Yes. The 10 Elites certainly possessed great power. But does that make them worthy of worship?

Ingrid: I imagine you ask because they later fought amongst themselves, turning on one another, ravaging the land.

Seteth: Precisely. Initially, Nemesis and the 10 Elites worked together to bring peace to Fódlan. But soon their ambitions got the best of them, and they clashed, using their sacred weapons on anyone they chose, strong and weak alike. What I mean to say is, possessing strength alone does not make one worthy of respect. Rather, one should be judged by how they choose to use that strength.

Not to mention that Edelgard was also passed down the story of the events of the War of Heroes from her ancestor, telling how Seiros killed the Elites and collected the Relics from them. And in VW, we have to fight the Elites after they were revived alongside Nemesis.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes, because even in the Church, it's actually that the Elites were also fallen heroes with Nemesis. This is actually mentioned in Ingrid/Seteth and Ignatz/Slayn supports.

Not to mention that Edelgard was also passed down the story of the events of the War of Heroes from her ancestor, telling how Seiros killed the Elites and collected the Relics from them. And in VW, we have to fight the Elites after they were revived alongside Nemesis.

Neither of those quotes say they didn't survive the war.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Neither of those quotes say they didn't survive the war.

I mean, the fact that they fought the Ten Elites and they were fallen heroes make it obvious that they also have to be killed as well.

And as I said, Edelgard's story, passed down from the emperors that fought in the War of Heroes, mention that Rhea collected the Relics after killing the Elites. 

And no, Edelgard's story is not faulty. The issue with Edelgard's story is that it lacks context, but the main points are there.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, the fact that they fought the Ten Elites and they were fallen heroes make it obvious that they also have to be killed as well.

And as I said, Edelgard's story, passed down from the emperors that fought in the War of Heroes, mention that Rhea collected the Relics after killing the Elites. 

And no, Edelgard's story is not faulty. The issue with Edelgard's story is that it lacks context, but the main points are there.

No one is disputing the fact that the elites fought alongside Rhea.

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Just now, Jotari said:

No one is disputing the fact that the elites fought alongside Rhea.

Um, consider it disputed. The Elites never fought alongside Rhea.

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44 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Um, consider it disputed. The Elites never fought alongside Rhea.

Blarg. I meant Nemesis. Ertrurian Emperor was saying it's possible they survived the war and then you just posted quotes saying they were in the war, which doesn't really address their survival on the matter. Maybe there's a case with the Edelgard stuff you're talking about, but you didn't provide a quote. If it says defeated or something similar instead of killed then there's room for doubt.

Edited by Jotari

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Just now, Jotari said:

Blarg. I meant Nemesis.

It's not possible for them to have been spared after a 66 year long war. They were the leaders of the army alongside Nemesis.

Not to mention, Rhea literally started the religion in the first place to kill Nemesis and his followers.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

It's not possible for them to have been spared after a 66 year long war. They were the leaders of the army alongside Nemesis.

Not to mention, Rhea literally started the religion in the first place to kill Nemesis and his followers.

(Edited my post above for added context).

Sure, but does the game say that they were actually killed?

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14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

(Edited my post above for added context).

Sure, but does the game say that they were actually killed?

 

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ertrurian Emperor was saying it's possible they survived the war and then you just posted quotes saying they were in the war, which doesn't really address their survival on the matter. Maybe there's a case with the Edelgard stuff you're talking about, but you didn't provide a quote. If it says defeated or something similar instead of killed then there's room for doubt.

Ah, here's the quote that Edelgard says:

Quote

Edelgard: Professor... Do you know the true story behind the legend? The Relics were created by the hands of mankind. Seiros collected them after killing the 10 Elites. Seiros manipulated the people of the world and defeated the all-powerful King Nemesis. 

 

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

 

Ah, here's the quote that Edelgard says:

 

There we go then.

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3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's not possible for them to have been spared after a 66 year long war. They were the leaders of the army alongside Nemesis.

Not to mention, Rhea literally started the religion in the first place to kill Nemesis and his followers.

Do you even have evidence that the only reason Rhea started the religion is because she wanted kill Nemesis? I mean whether you want to believe it or not the library mentions that the citizens of Enbarr created the religion after Seiros was seen performing miracles at Enbarr, which doesn't seem too far off from considering we know why Enbarr became the capital of the Empire in the first place (confirmed by Edelgard). 

It also mentions that Seiros fought alongside Wilhelm, which meant that it was a combined effort, and not just Seiros forcing Wilhelm to fight for her. Wilhelm wanted to unify Fodlan, and Rhea wanted to beat Nemesis. Rhea wouldn't have been able to combat Nemesis without the help of Wilhelm since he had an actual army, and Wilhelm had the power of a crest (evidenced by Edelgard's natural crest of Seiros) in exchange.

Again, whether you want to believe the library collection is up to you since people get sooo uptight with Rhea changing history and use head canons instead (I mean Thales throughout the game confirms a lot of Rhea's before death monologue in VW/SS, and Dimitri/Claude/Ingrid/Ashe/Lorenz confirm the Alliance and Kingdom foundings), but it doesn't seem far off on what could've happened.

Also we know the 10 elites would've had a longer lifespan due to dragon's blood (as seen with Jeralt). So Rhea potentially sparing them a long time after the war would've been possible (but still weird).

Edited by Lunarly

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I'm fairly certain Rhea started the religion because she wanted to promote and remember Sothis after her death and using the Elites who were really powerful was a great way of doing that. It also allowed her to hide the fact that the relics were bones of her siblings and crests are just Nabatean blood.

I'm also fairly certain that Rhea just spares the descendants of the Elites who probably fell in battle because doing so would have gone against the teachings of Sothis and probably to appease their descendants who controlled vast amounts of land. But this speculation on my part.

Edited by Ishmael

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1 hour ago, Lunarly said:

Do you even have evidence that the only reason Rhea started the religion is because she wanted kill Nemesis? I mean whether you want to believe it or not the library mentions that the citizens of Enbarr created the religion after Seiros was seen performing miracles at Enbarr, which doesn't seem too far off from considering we know why Enbarr became the capital of the Empire in the first place (confirmed by Edelgard).

I believe Ferdinand also said just prior to the battle that Seiros built the Great Canal of Enbarr as a token of friendship with humans. He didn't elaborate how Seiros built it, was it by magic, pre-war machinery or dragon power? Or Seiros simply designed it and had human to complete it

edit: just checked, Ferdinand was one mentioning city was built after Seiros, The Great Canal was mentioned by a monk

 

Quote
Monk: Did you know? A magnificent canal flows through downtown Enbarr.
It's said to have been constructed under the guidance of Saint Seiros before the Empire was even formed.
Ever since, that canal has been a major lifeline for the capital's development.
And this is how the Empire repays it... Truly, no good deed goes unpunished.

-------------------

Also, the whole reason I brought up ten elite or orphans in the first place, was because some guy on the previous page claimed Rhea would just wipe out all the children

But the game clearly states that Rhea argues the children were innocent. Regardless her motivation, she certainly didn't argue to wipe out the children thus it would be a false accusation.

Edited by Timlugia

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44 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I'm fairly certain Rhea started the religion because she wanted to promote and remember Sothis after her death and using the Elites who were really powerful was a great way of doing that. It also allowed her to hide the fact that the relics were bones of her siblings and crests are just Nabatean blood.

I'm also fairly certain that Rhea just spares the descendants of the Elites who probably fell in battle because doing so would have gone against the teachings of Sothis and probably to appease their descendants who controlled vast amounts of land. But this speculation on my part.

Rhea created the Church to guide Fodlan and protect it's people in the absence of her mother, but not really to remember her. Honestly, it's weird how so few times the name Sothis is actually SAID by a Church member. They almost always just say "Goddess". I have to wonder if it's actually common knowledge what the Goddess' name is...

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4 minutes ago, Emerson said:

Rhea created the Church to guide Fodlan and protect it's people in the absence of her mother, but not really to remember her. Honestly, it's weird how so few times the name Sothis is actually SAID by a Church member. They almost always just say "Goddess". I have to wonder if it's actually common knowledge what the Goddess' name is...

Again this is just speculation but the reason I think they always just say Goddess is to prevent people from getting reminded of anything related to her massacre. Your view does make more sense however considering she has no qualms about revealing her name or the name of the 4 Saints.

Edited by Ishmael

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

Again this is just speculation but the reason I think they always just say Goddess is to prevent people from getting reminded of anything related to her massacre. Your view does make more sense however considering she has no qualms about revealing her name or the name of the 4 Saints.

Well, the thing is, no one KNOWS about the massacre in the first place. Besides the fact that it was  however many hundreds of years in the past, the Church already does so much information trafficking as is to keep info like that away from the public, there wouldn't really be a point.

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3 minutes ago, Emerson said:

Well, the thing is, no one KNOWS about the massacre in the first place. Besides the fact that it was  however many hundreds of years in the past, the Church already does so much information trafficking as is to keep info like that away from the public, there wouldn't really be a point.

I meant moreso in terms of the time when the Elites reigned supreme. Later on they got phased out so I think thats why usage of Sothis over Goddess became less prevalent. Besides, referring to a God by their given name often seems disrespectful iirc.

Edit: Sorry for the vast change to my original response I changed my view really rapidly lol.

Edited by Ishmael

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2 hours ago, Lunarly said:

Do you even have evidence that the only reason Rhea started the religion is because she wanted kill Nemesis? I mean whether you want to believe it or not the library mentions that the citizens of Enbarr created the religion after Seiros was seen performing miracles at Enbarr, which doesn't seem too far off from considering we know why Enbarr became the capital of the Empire in the first place (confirmed by Edelgard). 

It also mentions that Seiros fought alongside Wilhelm, which meant that it was a combined effort, and not just Seiros forcing Wilhelm to fight for her. Wilhelm wanted to unify Fodlan, and Rhea wanted to beat Nemesis. Rhea wouldn't have been able to combat Nemesis without the help of Wilhelm since he had an actual army, and Wilhelm had the power of a crest (evidenced by Edelgard's natural crest of Seiros) in exchange.

Again, whether you want to believe the library collection is up to you since people get sooo uptight with Rhea changing history and use head canons instead (I mean Thales throughout the game confirms a lot of Rhea's before death monologue in VW/SS, and Dimitri/Claude/Ingrid/Ashe/Lorenz confirm the Alliance and Kingdom foundings), but it doesn't seem far off on what could've happened.

Also we know the 10 elites would've had a longer lifespan due to dragon's blood (as seen with Jeralt). So Rhea potentially sparing them a long time after the war would've been possible (but still weird).

Given they all were said to fight among themselves, some of them dying before Rhea even had a chance to kill them seems likely to me too.

1 hour ago, Emerson said:

Rhea created the Church to guide Fodlan and protect it's people in the absence of her mother, but not really to remember her. Honestly, it's weird how so few times the name Sothis is actually SAID by a Church member. They almost always just say "Goddess". I have to wonder if it's actually common knowledge what the Goddess' name is...

This is obviously done to keep the mystery of who Sothis is for the first half of the game. Players might assume it's the goddess everyone's talking about, but until it's confirmed this mysterious loli is only related to the goddess in some way and not necessarily the goddess herself. It's not really a plot twist that SOthis=Goddess, but knowing that info from the begninning for certain would change how Sothis is seen.

As for why she's referred to only as the goddess, that's not all that uncommon. Consider how rarely the Abrahamic god is referred to as Yaweh. Or even how it was outright forbidden to say Jehovah at certain times. Or hell look how we refer to the pope as just the pope and rarely actually use his name unless examining different popes in historical contexts (or possibly a news broadcast).

Edited by Jotari

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6 hours ago, Lunarly said:

Do you even have evidence that the only reason Rhea started the religion is because she wanted kill Nemesis? I mean whether you want to believe it or not the library mentions that the citizens of Enbarr created the religion after Seiros was seen performing miracles at Enbarr, which doesn't seem too far off from considering we know why Enbarr became the capital of the Empire in the first place (confirmed by Edelgard). 

It also mentions that Seiros fought alongside Wilhelm, which meant that it was a combined effort, and not just Seiros forcing Wilhelm to fight for her. Wilhelm wanted to unify Fodlan, and Rhea wanted to beat Nemesis. Rhea wouldn't have been able to combat Nemesis without the help of Wilhelm since he had an actual army, and Wilhelm had the power of a crest (evidenced by Edelgard's natural crest of Seiros) in exchange.

Again, whether you want to believe the library collection is up to you since people get sooo uptight with Rhea changing history and use head canons instead (I mean Thales throughout the game confirms a lot of Rhea's before death monologue in VW/SS, and Dimitri/Claude/Ingrid/Ashe/Lorenz confirm the Alliance and Kingdom foundings), but it doesn't seem far off on what could've happened.

Also we know the 10 elites would've had a longer lifespan due to dragon's blood (as seen with Jeralt). So Rhea potentially sparing them a long time after the war would've been possible (but still weird).

I do. Because Rhea literally admits it.

Quote

Rhea: I was the only survivor of Zanado, and all I could do was wander across Fodlan clinging to my desperate desire for revenge. I called myself Seiros, fostered the founding of the Empire, and prepared to oppose Nemesis and his followers.

She appeared 41 years before the founding of the Empire, fabricating miracles and then formed the religion. She made up the lie that Nemesis and his followers were blessed by the goddess, just so that when Rhea and the other Saints bestowed Crests onto people, they can justify why other people have Crests that they would inevitably face. She would manipulate the people into believing that they were facing a righteous war.

BTW, keep in mind that there was a long period of time between the Red Canyon Massacre and the arrival of Seiros. Then there was 41 years before the founding of the Empire, then 31 years before the War of Heroes began. That's 72 years already. And the War of Heroes lasted for 66 ears. That's 138 years in terms of those, but we know it's been even longer from the period since Red Canyon. This is also why there was no need to protect the remaining Nabateans. No one else knew the truth of the Crests apart from the Agarthans, whom Rhea and the others never learned existed. 

And Wilhelm was a helper, but how much he knew was limited. He likely only learned that the Relics were created by other people, and that Nemesis wasn't some fallen hero. It's a story that got passed down from emperor to emperor. And ultimately also about Edelgard telling straight up that Rhea collected the Relics after killing the Ten Elites. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

She would manipulate the people into believing that they were facing a righteous war.

You say that like Nemesis was the good guy here. From everything we've been told Rhea was fighting a righteous war, no manipulation. There's always the possibility (and hope) that Cindered Shadows might give motivations to Nemesis and the elites beyond just I want power and these random people told me too. But as of right now they have no redeeming qualities and were purely in the wrong. Rhea wanted justice for her family who were slaughtered, and Wilhelm wanted to unify Fodlan so it would be a more secure and safer continent without Nemesis and the bandits of the north. I guess desires of unification run in the Emperor gene pool.

On a side note what do we think Rhea's original name was? You'd think it's Serios and that Rhea was a cover-up like Seteth and Flayn, but the quote omegaxis1 posted implies that she was not originally called Serios. So was Rhea her real name after all? The only other explanation I can think of is that none of the Nabateans had real names before they became saints but that seems a bit weird.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rhea: I was the only survivor of Zanado, and all I could do was wander across Fodlan clinging to my desperate desire for revenge. I called myself Seiros, fostered the founding of the Empire, and prepared to oppose Nemesis and his followers.

 

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4 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

You say that like Nemesis was the good guy here. From everything we've been told Rhea was fighting a righteous war, no manipulation. There's always the possibility (and hope) that Cindered Shadows might give motivations to Nemesis and the elites beyond just I want power and these random people told me too. But as of right now they have no redeeming qualities and were purely in the wrong. Rhea wanted justice for her family who were slaughtered, and Wilhelm wanted to unify Fodlan so it would be a more secure and safer continent without Nemesis and the bandits of the north. I guess desires of unification run in the Emperor gene pool.

Rhea lied to the people, created a false religion, and insisted that Nemesis was some hero that was fallen and now wanted to rule the world. Problem is, there's no proof of that. Because the one that STARTED the war was Wilhelm, not Nemesis. And Nemesis and his Elites had power for YEARS. If Nemesis wanted to rule Fodlan, he'd have conquered it all easily years ago with the power he wielded. It'd have been easy for him to have gathered followers, given that he did the moment that Wilhelm made the first move.

Not saying that Nemesis was a good guy, mind you, but that does not, in any way, justify Rhea creating a fake religion and starting a war that went on for 66 years. And she did all that for the sake of revenge. 

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7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

She appeared 41 years before the founding of the Empire, fabricating miracles and then formed the religion. She made up the lie that Nemesis and his followers were blessed by the goddess, just so that when Rhea and the other Saints bestowed Crests onto people, they can justify why other people have Crests that they would inevitably face. She would manipulate the people into believing that they were facing a righteous war.

Rhea did lie about Nemesis and crests but, the game never specifies when she told the lie. The library collections mentions Nemesis and how he was supposedly blessed by the goddess but, we don't know when or who wrote the text (even then it isn't reliable since we know the history of crests and Nemesis was made up). Outside of that, the game never mentions that Rhea/Saints made up the lie back in the day to justify the use of crests for the fight against Nemesis. 

Again, from what we know, Rhea did not create the Seiros religion. The religion was created by the public, and considering that Seiros has a large following and that the reason why Enbarr became the capital was because it was the first city that Seiros graced, it isn't too far off to believe it was created by the public. There's no reason for Rhea to fabricate pretend miracles because we know she has power, considering she was able to save Catherine and Jeralt during their near-death experiences. 

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rhea lied to the people, created a false religion, and insisted that Nemesis was some hero that was fallen and now wanted to rule the world. Problem is, there's no proof of that. Because the one that STARTED the war was Wilhelm, not Nemesis. And Nemesis and his Elites had power for YEARS. If Nemesis wanted to rule Fodlan, he'd have conquered it all easily years ago with the power he wielded. It'd have been easy for him to have gathered followers, given that he did the moment that Wilhelm made the first move.

Not saying that Nemesis was a good guy, mind you, but that does not, in any way, justify Rhea creating a fake religion and starting a war that went on for 66 years. And she did all that for the sake of revenge. 

Seiros religion isn't really fake considering it was created by the public and that Seiros and Sothis are real and did perform the miracles that they did. Seiros Religion is more of a shady religion considering the rewriting of what a crest is and that the people are unaware the goddess they worship is actually right there (though it's clear when Rhea says goddess she meant Sothis, and when the followers say goddess they believe it's Seiros).

Also you said Wilhelm made the first move, and then went on to say Rhea started the war. We also don't really know why the war lasted 66 years since the game only tells you a few of the battles (or it could have been just Gronder and Tailtean we don't know), so blaming it exclusively on Rhea potentially extending the war is odd since there could've been other factors that could've been the reason why the war lasted 66 years.

Edited by Lunarly

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