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Jotari

Where does Byleth place on the canon ranking tier list of Lords?

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In terms of the canon strength of Lords, I reckon Alm, Sigurd/Seliph and Ike make up the indisputed top four (well, I say indisputed, someone will probably argue Hector or Corrin could beat Alm or something). But now we have a new contender on the scene. With his merged god powers and ability to single handedly turn the tide of a war in multiple directions, is Byleth the strongest lord? And if not, where do you think he ranks?

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First i highly disagree whit the top 4. The only characters whit continental Feats in the time of the games are Ashera and Grima. Mila and Duma had those at the height of their power, but not in the age of Alm and Celica. And Medeus > Loptyr and Duma, so i would put Arkanea  above Jugdral and Valentia. Unless Tiki carried hard. 

Byleth is in a relatively low power setting. Deghinsea for example would most likely survive the ICBM spell better than the immaculate one did. They have some form of hax in form of time-space manipulation (the divine pulse and whatever they did to escape the forbiden spell of Smash Invitation) but in term of sheer power i would put them on the weaker side. 

 

Also whoever says Hector is blinded by gameplay lol. 

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Depends on if you count cutscenes. His track record in cutscenes kinda... sucks. Like half the cutscenes in the game involve him fucking up in some ridiculous way. While he has incredible power, and also spacetime is almost literally his bitch, he also needs it a lot more than any other lord in the series (he literally needed divine intervention to survive a seven second windup attack in the prologue), and also frequently flat-out forgets to use it because he's a deer in the headlights.

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Byleth would probably rank pretty highly. He has a divine weapon that's both powerful and versatile, and he can rewind time. Byleth is also one of the few lords who doesn't start out as a complete rookie. According to Hanneman Byleth was a pretty famed mercenary long before coming to the monastery. 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

And Medeus > Loptyr and Duma, so i would put Arkanea  above Jugdral and Valentia.

Are we sure about that? Maybe its because Medeus never says or does anything but he never struck me as particularly powerful in the grand scheme of things. Unlike other lords like Alm or Ike we never really see Marth depicted as a great warrior either. 

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For what i understood, Medeus was the leader of a group which Loptyr belong to. And i think he is the strongest after Naga, but that may be untrue.

Edited by Flere210

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25 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

For what i understood, Medeus was the leader of a group which Loptyr belong to. And i think he is the strongest after Naga, but that may be untrue.

Medeus wasn't the leader of that group. If anything he was a traitor to the Earth Dragons as he alone decided to become a Manakete. He was the prince, who presumably had a father that was king who was the real ruler, unless it was a principality, but if that's the case he was a pretty shitty monarch if he couldn't convince a single one of his subjects to follow him. And manaketes are less powerful than actual dragons, so Loptyr probably is stronger. Medeus's dark dragon form probably removes his manakete transformation, but Loptyr looks like he achieved that Drark Dragon form too.

Granted this is all irrelevant as Loptyr never actually appears in the series. Julius possessed by Loptyr's influence is the final boss of Holy War.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

First i highly disagree whit the top 4. The only characters whit continental Feats in the time of the games are Ashera and Grima. Mila and Duma had those at the height of their power, but not in the age of Alm and Celica. And Medeus > Loptyr and Duma, so i would put Arkanea  above Jugdral and Valentia. Unless Tiki carried hard. 

Byleth is in a relatively low power setting. Deghinsea for example would most likely survive the ICBM spell better than the immaculate one did. They have some form of hax in form of time-space manipulation (the divine pulse and whatever they did to escape the forbiden spell of Smash Invitation) but in term of sheer power i would put them on the weaker side. 

 

Also whoever says Hector is blinded by gameplay lol. 

Did you mistake the topic title thinking it was referring to all characters? Because I did specify just lords.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Depends on if you count cutscenes. His track record in cutscenes kinda... sucks. Like half the cutscenes in the game involve him fucking up in some ridiculous way. While he has incredible power, and also spacetime is almost literally his bitch, he also needs it a lot more than any other lord in the series (he literally needed divine intervention to survive a seven second windup attack in the prologue), and also frequently flat-out forgets to use it because he's a deer in the headlights.

Cutscenes if anything should have more weight than anything else as we're seeing a more direct representation of what's going on than gameplay would suggest. That being said, does he really suck all that much? You're right that Byleth nearly gets decapitaed in the opening chapter, but after that the only loss I can really think of is Tomas's hax spell. He does use time control to try and save Jearlt only to be stopped by Thales, however there's not much of a fight. Thlaes nopes out of there rather quickly. Only other cutscene involving fighting that comes directly to mind is going toe to toe with Nemesis.

Edited by Jotari

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3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Ok i conced that point, my understanding of Kaga lore is lacking to say the least. Still, i think Julius is one of the weakest final bosses.

Stronger than Veld XD And probably stronger than Nergal and Ashnard too.

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I'd argue that FE7 crew is kind of weak because they struggled to take down a Fire Dragon while Roy and his gang took down many War Dragons. I'm surprised no one brings up Chrom because he is also stupidly powerful. Byleth is pretty powerful and maybe the 4th strongest or 5th strongest, being bested by Ike, Sigurd, and maybe Roy or Chrom

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It almost feels insulting to say "Top 4,' as though to imply that's a single Tier.

There's a Top 1. And then there's a tier below Top 1 for like 2 through 4. 

Ike is in a tier by himself. 

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27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Medeus wasn't the leader of that group. If anything he was a traitor to the Earth Dragons as he alone decided to become a Manakete. He was the prince, who presumably had a father that was king who was the real ruler, unless it was a principality, but if that's the case he was a pretty shitty monarch if he couldn't convince a single one of his subjects to follow him. And manaketes are less powerful than actual dragons, so Loptyr probably is stronger. Medeus's dark dragon form probably removes his manakete transformation, but Loptyr looks like he achieved that Drark Dragon form too.

Granted this is all irrelevant as Loptyr never actually appears in the series. Julius possessed by Loptyr's influence is the final boss of Holy War.

Did you mistake the topic title thinking it was referring to all characters? Because I did specify just lords.

Cutscenes if anything should have more weight than anything else as we're seeing a more direct representation of what's going on than gameplay would suggest. That being said, does he really suck all that much? You're right that Byleth nearly gets decapitaed in the opening chapter, but after that the only loss I can really think of is Tomas's hax spell. He does use time control to try and save Jearlt only to be stopped by Thales, however there's not much of a fight. Thlaes nopes out of there rather quickly. Only other cutscene involving fighting that comes directly to mind is going toe to toe with Nemesis.

He also falls off a cliff and doesn't once think to rewind until he hits the bottom and enters his weird spacetime coma. That is an alarming percentage of his cutscenes where his purpose seems to be to fail at things the player couldn't possibly fail at in game.

Edited by Alastor15243

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8 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I prefere to think that Thales's spell already incapacitated them,  but it's not clear.

It would have been nice if they showed him at least trying. No excuse for the falling off a cliff though.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

I'd argue that FE7 crew is kind of weak because they struggled to take down a Fire Dragon while Roy and his gang took down many War Dragons. I'm surprised no one brings up Chrom because he is also stupidly powerful. Byleth is pretty powerful and maybe the 4th strongest or 5th strongest, being bested by Ike, Sigurd, and maybe Roy or Chrom

The dragons of the two Elibe games are different beasts. The Fire Dragon is an actual dragon but Idunns war dragons are more like baby dragons.

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12 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The dragons of the two Elibe games are different beasts. The Fire Dragon is an actual dragon but Idunns war dragons are more like baby dragons.

I see.

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If Divine Pulse is considered, his only equal should be Alm who has the same power. Having thirteen extra lives gives him a serious edge on any opponent, and despite his woeful streak of inaction in cutscenes, gameplay suggests the power will activate consistently in his last moments of consciousness even when he does definitively get killed.

If divine pulse is not considered, since some things must be fate or whatever Sothis says, Byleth is probably mid to low-mid. Comparing the Crest of flames to the effects of previous games's skills, it's not as strong as aether or even sol. If I had to pick out characters I imagine are at or above Byleth's level, they'd be Celica, Lief, and Roy. If I had to pick out Lords I don't see him losing against they'd be Marth, Eliwood, Micaiah

Edited by Glennstavos

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

It would have been nice if they showed him at least trying. No excuse for the falling off a cliff though.

Not having any time pulses left after the battle seems like a reasonable explanation.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The dragons of the two Elibe games are different beasts. The Fire Dragon is an actual dragon but Idunns war dragons are more like baby dragons.

I still expect Roy is in more powerful than Eliwood (or Hector or Lyn). Because the Sword of Seals is canonically an amazing weapon above and beyond the other legendary weapons of that verse (which the gameplay backs up pretty well).

Edited by Jotari

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27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I still expect Roy is in more powerful than Eliwood (or Hector or Lyn). Because the Sword of Seals is canonically an amazing weapon above and beyond the other legendary weapons of that verse (which the gameplay backs up pretty well).

The weapon is more powerful than what they wielded but Roy himself is likely a poor fighter. He's the youngest lord, pretty skinny from the looks of it and his stats might be intentionally bad to reflect that he's more of a thinker than a fighter. 

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1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The weapon is more powerful than what they wielded but Roy himself is likely a poor fighter. He's the youngest lord, pretty skinny from the looks of it and his stats might be intentionally bad to reflect that he's more of a thinker than a fighter. 

Yeah, but people fight using weapons. We're not talking about who can lift the most.

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12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but people fight using weapons. We're not talking about who can lift the most.

True but strength and skill still count for a lot. Makalov could technically start swinging Ragnel too and wouldn't get the same out of it as Ike. Or a more reasonable example is how Blume gives up his holy weapon because Ishtar is just better with it. 

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45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not having any time pulses left after the battle seems like a reasonable explanation.

That doesn't feel like something you can get away with retconning when it's almost guaranteed to not be true in-game.

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53 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

True but strength and skill still count for a lot. Makalov could technically start swinging Ragnel too and wouldn't get the same out of it as Ike. Or a more reasonable example is how Blume gives up his holy weapon because Ishtar is just better with it. 

And Roy is the chosen one destined to wield the Sword of Seals, which he does with enough skill to subdue without slaying a massive dragon.

51 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

That doesn't feel like something you can get away with retconning when it's almost guaranteed to not be true in-game.

Not a retcon. Just gameplay story segregation. We have two possible scenarios here, neither of which the game backs up. A) Byleth fell into a cavern because s/he's a moron who forgot they could time travel. B) Byleth fell into a cavern because at that moment they were unable to use time travel (an ability established to have certain limitations). 

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8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not a retcon. Just gameplay story segregation. We have two possible scenarios here, neither of which the game backs up. A) Byleth fell into a cavern because s/he's a moron who forgot they could time travel. B) Byleth fell into a cavern because at that moment they were unable to use time travel (an ability established to have certain limitations). 

It was pretty lame of them to say it has "limitations" and then say next to nothing about what those limitations are. And the thing is we don't even see him try and fail.

But back on topic, given how nerfed rewinding is in canon, and how he only successfully uses it, like, once, I think that's a mark against his tier ranking.

Lucina and Byleth have had roughly the same amount of combat experience by the beginning of their respective games, but when Lissa is cornered by a risen, Lucina actually succeeds at the maneuver Byleth failed to do to save Edelgard. So I think we can establish Lucina is a better fighter than Byleth, skillwise.

Edited by Alastor15243

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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

It was pretty lame of them to say it has "limitations" and then say next to nothing about what those limitations are. And the thing is we don't even see him try and fail.

But back on topic, given how nerfed rewinding is in canon, and how he only successfully uses it, like, once, I think that's a mark against his tier ranking.

Lucina and Byleth have had roughly the same amount of combat experience by the beginning of their respective games, but when Lissa is cornered by a risen, Lucina actually succeeds at the maneuver Byleth failed to do to save Edelgard. So I think we can establish Lucina is a better fighter than Byleth, skillwise.

Maybe by game's start. But by game's end Lucina is noteably missing a power up from merging with a god and access to magic.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Maybe by game's start. But by game's end Lucina is noteably missing a power up from merging with a god and access to magic.

Still, it's a point of data regarding his skill. And also Lucina has plenty of access to magic, with 4 of her 5 mothers (6 if you count maiden).

Edited by Alastor15243

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