How would you like form changers to be implemented?

[Emperor Hardin]

In Path of Radiance, I found Lethe was very good, especially with her gauge letting her transform immediately. Thus I did a strategy to have her immediately equip the demi band when her gauge ran out. Janaff was similar, but he came in a little too late for me.

Mordecai was helpful to have around, especially for low turn counts combined with his smite.

4 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Why wouldn't it ignore everything that took place in FE1 and 3? After all, Awakening takes place 2000 years in Archanea's future, so it makes sense that nothing from that time is relevant anymore.

Except they ignore stuff that should still be relevant like how Manaketes work, how the Fire Emblem works, what Naga is, the existence of Gotoh and Xane, ETC.

Anyhow your post is off topic.

[NinjaMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

how the Fire Emblem works

You mean as a glorified chest key?

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Anyhow your post is off topic.

That didn't stop you replying to it, did it now?

Also, shapeshifters are fine as they are.

[Emperor Hardin]

Some other good ideas on Laguz in particular

1. Have them gain regular exp at a regular rate.
2. Level to 40 instead of 30.
3. Don't have individual battles make them lose points on their gauge.
4. Allow them to transform at a lower gauge in exchange for less stats similar to the demi band.

43 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

You mean as a glorified chest key?

I see you didn't read up on Archanea's story at all.

[mangasdeouf]

43 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Is your copy of Radiant Dawn the same one I've been playing? Because this completely ignores that tigers are not that fast (Muarim can double in part 1, but at that point he's blatantly OP against unpromoted enemies, and I should be raising the units that actually stick around to see use), as well as the usual laguz problems, like having their enemy phase compromised because they're range locked, among others. And you're ignoring the fact that laguz strike rank raises at a rate which "snail's pace" would be too kind in describing. How powerful tigers are at SS strike doesn't mean jack nor shit when realistically, they won't get there before the game is over. And all this is without even mentioning the fact that they have to worry about reverting into their weak and vulnerable human forms, at which point they're as fucked as a Shedinja coming into Stealth Rock or Spikes.

Mordecai has 57 base HP 16 base def in human form, with 9 base speed (6 points from max, 24 levels away from max, 15% growth, he should get to 12 spd which means 24 in tiger, won't be doubled by any ennemy deling damage to him, he caps his def before lv 30). Can he double? Not much unless you give him a speedwings (+4 speed in beast form putting him at 22 speed from base, which is about most t2 speed cap anyway especially middling speed classes like soldier and paladin), if you give him speedwings and he gets only 1 point of speed he has 24 speed as a tiger, doubles all ennemies in part 2 including swordmasters (not sure about SM but I thin it's the case) and never get doubled until part 4 or even endgame.

If you can't manage something as trivial as transformation gauge is on a unit who's virtually immortal on the physical side for 80% of the game, even when he gets doubled, I can't help you. He may take 2 ennemies in human form, weaken them with human 14 str +9 mt 23 base damage (not too far from what nephenee deals with steel lance at base), get his gauge back up to 30 and slaughter 6 ennemies by himself before needing to...drink an elixir and doing the same thing again.

Muarim straight up demolishes ennemies in his rejoining chapter at base in tiger form, slaughtering even the generals (maybe not ORKOing them, but not far from that with 36 base strength, 30 base def, 58 base HP, 22 base speed which go to 26 with 1 speedwings or 24 with 1 speed level up, he's 1 point away from res cap).

I don't think Laguz are garbage, because while they don't canto (except birds), they can smite or push units and have the con to do it on heavy units and cavalry, and they have 9 move even indoors (from what I remember), can climb, don't get awful movement penalties like cavalry does, are better in swamps (3 chapters), have better caps, better bases, gain increased exp in human form (if you can raise Astrid there's no way you can't raise Mordecai, Lethe and even Kyza, at least they will do more than 0 damage in most cases even in human form the moment they join). And their weapons are infinite, and renewal heals them for 5 HP per turn, and resolve transforms them into nuclear weapons since it makes their human form reach wildheart stats, wildheart surpass full transformation and full transformation become 4th tier worthy, Mordecai has 27 speed at base with resolve activated, tiger have 45 speed when capped with resolve activated, doubling every ennemy who doesn't cancel all skills and I think ennemies only cancel active skills dealing damage like Colossus or Impale, Luna etc.). When Mordecai reaches enough speed not to take double attacks at the tower from base stats with only 1 skill that can be activated just by fighting 1 or 2 ennemies in human form, I don't see how Laguz are weak.

Don't mix Lyre and tigers/wolves/Ranulf please, or even Skrimir who is simply overrated, since he joins late, has no time to catch up and is surpassed by his father anyway so there's no point in playing him while Mordecai has 8-10 chapters over him to be useful and get weapon rank up to par with Skrimir, while his def largely surpasses that of Simba (base Mordecai's def is equal to base Skrimir's def, Mordecai is 9 levels lower and can get 8 more defense in tiger form, 4 more in human form than Skrimir by the time he reaches the same level, meaning the 9 HP advantage of Skrimir is invalidated,and you can probably get resolve from somewhere if you can get it off Tauroneo before the end of p1, or otherwise directly from Skrimir since he's vastly redundant and useless, not even tanky enough for a tank when he finally comes.

Resolve + Mordecai is so awesome that I want to get to play it but I'm still blocked with my save files that all are in P1 of RD so I can't do it.

TL;DR: Tigers are the best tanks in the game, can probably use shout to counter archers and mages (didn't test it so I don't state it as a fact), have high mobility, very manageable transformation gauge, enough physical bulk and overall bulk with their insane HP base+GR to soak up damage, several ennemies doubling them isn't a problem and even allows them to abuse skills like Resolve while they have the best use for Renewal, the most garbage regen skill in most FE games, only tied with camaraderie in Fates that also suffers from the no hp syndrome letting it heal only 2-3 HP for most units most of the game. But Tigers also hit very hard at base and their cap is fearful, even at S rank strike Mordecai has 14+14=28 damage in human form, 42 in tiger form, around 3 points of strength gained by p4 which means he should have +6 attack: 48 attack with a silver weapon might (53 with S+, 65 with capped strength). By the end of P4 he can easily be S+ if you used him instead of Brom from the beginning. It means your tank is insanely sturdy, while hitting very hard in retaliation (and most tanks in RD have pretty crap base hit rates so ranged weapons aren't reliable on them at base, while Quickclaw still has 18% chance to counter ranged attack with Mordy's base speed, 30% with tiger cap, for a 1 range locked class I find it quite decent actually). And while beasts can use quickclaw, birds can use shriek to nullify ranged damage incoming base on their luck.

So Laguz may be the best implementation of shapeshifters we've seen for long (let's say since FE3 manaketes' versatility). Cats are actually the worst ones but their class skill has the highest damage output in the game, with capped strength they have 36x5=180 damage, -35 def = 145 damage on Ashera. Without her skill cancelling offensive skills, ASHERA would simply BE ONE SHOT AND OVERKILLED by a cat with capped strength on rend skill activation. Cats with rend OHKO every ennemy in the game, same for Dheghinsea.

[Hawkwing]

I have a soft spot for shapeshifters, even if their usefulness ranges between games. As for the the way I would like them to be implemented:

1. Expand Upon Fates Beastone Mechanic and Combine It With Archenea's Various Dragonstones: While barebones, I really enjoyed how Fates gave you the option for shapeshifters to switch between being a fast but fragile offensive fighter or a slow but hard-hitting tank. This has a ton of untapped potential for shapeshifters to serve a wide variety of roles, sacrificing one strength in exchange for another. Arcehenea's dragonstones served a similar purpose, albeit with less of a focus on drastic stat changes (or at least, they didn't focus on reducing some stats in the process of boosting the rest) and more on the kind of damage the weapon did. I don't see any real drawbacks to combining and expanding upon both systems, so why not do just that?

2. Shapeshifter Classes: They don't need to go crazy with this one, but having something like scouts, warriors, guardians, healers, etc. would help diversify their stat layout, skill set, and overall roles. This would prevent shapeshifters from feeling so similar to each other to use as allies and to fight as enemies, and might even be a good way to determine what weapons they can use while untransformed.

3. Jack-of-All-Trades, Master or None Units While Untransformed: This would probably work best with Three Houses "anyone can use any weapon" system, but as I mentioned above a class system would also do the trick. Essentially, shapeshifters would be competent and versatile units while untransformed, but they don't really specialize in too much. They fight well in a wide variety of situations but don't excel at any of them. Transforming  would provide a much needed boost in power, but perhaps at the cost of giving them a slightly more niche role, adding an interesting conundrum to the mix. This might work better with Tellius's gauge system, but it could also work with stones, especially FE3's handling of them.

4. Have Them Appear As Uncommon But Not Rare Enemies: I liked how Manakete enemies were handled in Shadow Dragon, where they start off as bosses and slowly become more common without ever giving the impression that they're rank-and-file soldiers. I wished that the Fates shapeshifters appeared every now and again as enemies, instead of being present in only one major chapter (they may have been present in some paralogues. I didn't unlock a ton of them when I played through Conquest), and I always thought that having a Taguel Warren level was a huge missed opportunity in Awakening in both gameplay and lore. I haven't played the Tellius games, so I can't comment on how well they handled this, but shapeshifters should appear as enemies, just not as overly common ones.

[Benice]

Give them regular exp gains. Barring you dumping BEXP and feeding them every kill, laguz ain't getting any levels. I would like ranged options and perhaps gauntlet-like weapons which add MT so they'll have weapons that can actually do stuff.

 

[Emperor Hardin]

4 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

4. Have Them Appear As Uncommon But Not Rare Enemies: I liked how Manakete enemies were handled in Shadow Dragon, where they start off as bosses and slowly become more common without ever giving the impression that they're rank-and-file soldiers. I wished that the Fates shapeshifters appeared every now and again as enemies, instead of being present in only one major chapter (they may have been present in some paralogues. I didn't unlock a ton of them when I played through Conquest), and I always thought that having a Taguel Warren level was a huge missed opportunity in Awakening in both gameplay and lore. I haven't played the Tellius games, so I can't comment on how well they handled this, but shapeshifters should appear as enemies, just not as overly common ones.

Laguz enemies appear throughout both Tellius games.

Actually the only Fire Emblem, including TearRing Saga, to have a shifter class and no enemy variant of any sort is Awakening. Yes, even Sacred Stones has Dracozombies who use the same mechanics and a boss who uses the Manakete class.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

My ideal format would basically be laguz, but with combat arts (that cost extra gauge points). Say, Cats get a brave attack, Ravens get one that does magical damage, or a new type like Snakes get one that strikes at range. Do Radiant Dawn's system of choosing when you transform, but addd a skill or equippable that lets you start with a full gauge. Maybe also change the stats, so it's always a 1.5x boost, rather than 2x, so untransformed laguz aren't totally helpless.

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Laguz enemies appear throughout both Tellius games.

Actually the only Fire Emblem, including TearRing Saga, to have a shifter class and no enemy variant of any sort is Awakening. Yes, even Sacred Stones has Dracozombies who use the same mechanics and a boss who uses the Manakete class.

It is possible to face Yarne as an enemy in his own paralogue, but you're right about no generics. Even Fates, as flawed as its integration of shapeshifters was, had at least one chapter each (in Birthright and Conquest) where you fought them.

[mangasdeouf]

11 hours ago, Benice said:

Give them regular exp gains. Barring you dumping BEXP and feeding them every kill, laguz ain't getting any levels. I would like ranged options and perhaps gauntlet-like weapons which add MT so they'll have weapons that can actually do stuff.

 

Did you try what I typed just a few comments higher than yours? Mordecai can easily take 2 physical ennemies in an ennemy phase in human form in ch2, just use him like you would use Brom: block the path, he tanks, counters melee attacks and then he transforms, eats an elixir/intermediate vulnerary (the ones healing 40 HP), destroys the ennemies coming at him, then you place him further, untransform and repeat. He should gain 1-2 levels per part 2 chapter, same in part 3 when he comes back. Eating a stat booster and manipulating level ups/BEXP makes it easy for laguz like him to cap several stats in a few level ups and human form gains massive exp per fight (more than Haar for example, and everyone can get 3-6 level ups on Haar in intermediate difficulty). In PoR though, Laguz were a chore to train and couldn't counter in human form, although their human stats were much better, I agree.

11 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I have a soft spot for shapeshifters, even if their usefulness ranges between games. As for the the way I would like them to be implemented:

1. Expand Upon Fates Beastone Mechanic and Combine It With Archenea's Various Dragonstones: While barebones, I really enjoyed how Fates gave you the option for shapeshifters to switch between being a fast but fragile offensive fighter or a slow but hard-hitting tank. This has a ton of untapped potential for shapeshifters to serve a wide variety of roles, sacrificing one strength in exchange for another. Arcehenea's dragonstones served a similar purpose, albeit with less of a focus on drastic stat changes (or at least, they didn't focus on reducing some stats in the process of boosting the rest) and more on the kind of damage the weapon did. I don't see any real drawbacks to combining and expanding upon both systems, so why not do just that?

2. Shapeshifter Classes: They don't need to go crazy with this one, but having something like scouts, warriors, guardians, healers, etc. would help diversify their stat layout, skill set, and overall roles. This would prevent shapeshifters from feeling so similar to each other to use as allies and to fight as enemies, and might even be a good way to determine what weapons they can use while untransformed.

3. Jack-of-All-Trades, Master or None Units While Untransformed: This would probably work best with Three Houses "anyone can use any weapon" system, but as I mentioned above a class system would also do the trick. Essentially, shapeshifters would be competent and versatile units while untransformed, but they don't really specialize in too much. They fight well in a wide variety of situations but don't excel at any of them. Transforming  would provide a much needed boost in power, but perhaps at the cost of giving them a slightly more niche role, adding an interesting conundrum to the mix. This might work better with Tellius's gauge system, but it could also work with stones, especially FE3's handling of them.

4. Have Them Appear As Uncommon But Not Rare Enemies: I liked how Manakete enemies were handled in Shadow Dragon, where they start off as bosses and slowly become more common without ever giving the impression that they're rank-and-file soldiers. I wished that the Fates shapeshifters appeared every now and again as enemies, instead of being present in only one major chapter (they may have been present in some paralogues. I didn't unlock a ton of them when I played through Conquest), and I always thought that having a Taguel Warren level was a huge missed opportunity in Awakening in both gameplay and lore. I haven't played the Tellius games, so I can't comment on how well they handled this, but shapeshifters should appear as enemies, just not as overly common ones.

I like the ideas you gave (even if some of them had already been suggested). A human class that can use every physical weapon with E ranks everywhere in the GBA system, with something like 4 in every physical stat and good HP would kind of do the trick I suppose, wouldn't it?

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My ideal format would basically be laguz, but with combat arts (that cost extra gauge points). Say, Cats get a brave attack, Ravens get one that does magical damage, or a new type like Snakes get one that strikes at range. Do Radiant Dawn's system of choosing when you transform, but addd a skill or equippable that lets you start with a full gauge. Maybe also change the stats, so it's always a 1.5x boost, rather than 2x, so untransformed laguz aren't totally helpless.

I thought of taking the animal monster animations (spiders, dogs, gargoyles, gorgones etc.) and tying them to an object, I don't know how to do it though. It would allow for similar stereotypes but with sprites we don't get to see in the usual shapeshifter games (we could say they get enraged when they go doggystyle, they're hunting smartly when they go spider with different stats than the ennemy spiders who are no more than tigers undercover, or maybe someone could find/create animations for shapeshifters, but I don't know how hard it could be). Maybe we could give the shapeshifters a particular mechanic which makes them unable to trade, so they have to use the right weapon/stone at the right time and your formation should cover the kind of stone you use on the shapeshifters (if you used an anti-mage stone and there are cavaliers looking meany at you, you would be forced to put a human shield between your anti-mage stone guy and the cavaliers).

I think every shapeshifter could be able to use every stone (every transformation), but they would have completely different stat spreads and each shapeshifter would have personal stat spread to offer a different experience (like how Kaden and Keaton are 2 completely different units with the same stones, but without this racial distinction). Let's say Kiza and Mordecai could also change into cats, falcons, ravens, lions, wolves and dragons, they would both have the same abilities, but they would have completely different performances in each of these forms (Kiza having the GR to be able to double in a form with high base speed while he can't as a tiger since in p4 ennemies are faster than earlier in the game, while Mordecai could have a little less overkill def for more speed so he could tank in human form by not getting doubled in the endgame). This would also change the unit's weaknesses depending on the stone (put something that doesn't fear archers against bows, put something that doesn't fear mages against magic etc.).

If any of you has the skills to code things like biorythm (after all, there are 2 skills in FEBuilder that could be changed: odd rythm and even rythm, in order to be some alternative to transformation gauge, could even set 2 transformations for each shapeshifting class, one for even turns and the other for odd turns, so they could tank, kill, tank, kill...depending on the turn) of transformtion gauge, or simply battle animations (I just found that Manakete animation is tied to the dragonstone for Myrrh, so it could be done with a different weapon registered as monster weapon but with some lock (for example the unused Athos lock).

As long as we can have battle animations made for this, we can even implement them (not skills though since for now they've been done only with FE8 AFAIK) if it's a stone type deciding transformation (so battle animation).

What do you guys think of that?

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

4. Have Them Appear As Uncommon But Not Rare Enemies: I liked how Manakete enemies were handled in Shadow Dragon, where they start off as bosses and slowly become more common without ever giving the impression that they're rank-and-file soldiers. I wished that the Fates shapeshifters appeared every now and again as enemies, instead of being present in only one major chapter (they may have been present in some paralogues. I didn't unlock a ton of them when I played through Conquest), and I always thought that having a Taguel Warren level was a huge missed opportunity in Awakening in both gameplay and lore. I haven't played the Tellius games, so I can't comment on how well they handled this, but shapeshifters should appear as enemies, just not as overly common ones.

Laguz enemies appear throughout both Tellius games. However, in Path of Radiance, after a certain point, the only laguz you see are Feral Ones (laguz who are permanently transformed; basically something akin to the Degenerated Dragons you see in Mystery of the Emblem, but they were drugged. In gameplay, the first time you see Feral Ones is during the Begnion arc of the game). You'll also see Feral Ones in one chapter near the end of Radiant Dawn.

13 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Mordecai has 57 base HP 16 base def in human form, with 9 base speed (6 points from max, 24 levels away from max, 15% growth, he should get to 12 spd which means 24 in tiger, won't be doubled by any ennemy deling damage to him, he caps his def before lv 30). Can he double? Not much unless you give him a speedwings (+4 speed in beast form putting him at 22 speed from base, which is about most t2 speed cap anyway especially middling speed classes like soldier and paladin), if you give him speedwings and he gets only 1 point of speed he has 24 speed as a tiger, doubles all ennemies in part 2 including swordmasters (not sure about SM but I thin it's the case) and never get doubled until part 4 or even endgame.

If you can't manage something as trivial as transformation gauge is on a unit who's virtually immortal on the physical side for 80% of the game, even when he gets doubled, I can't help you. He may take 2 ennemies in human form, weaken them with human 14 str +9 mt 23 base damage (not too far from what nephenee deals with steel lance at base), get his gauge back up to 30 and slaughter 6 ennemies by himself before needing to...drink an elixir and doing the same thing again.

Muarim straight up demolishes ennemies in his rejoining chapter at base in tiger form, slaughtering even the generals (maybe not ORKOing them, but not far from that with 36 base strength, 30 base def, 58 base HP, 22 base speed which go to 26 with 1 speedwings or 24 with 1 speed level up, he's 1 point away from res cap).

I don't think Laguz are garbage, because while they don't canto (except birds), they can smite or push units and have the con to do it on heavy units and cavalry, and they have 9 move even indoors (from what I remember), can climb, don't get awful movement penalties like cavalry does, are better in swamps (3 chapters), have better caps, better bases, gain increased exp in human form (if you can raise Astrid there's no way you can't raise Mordecai, Lethe and even Kyza, at least they will do more than 0 damage in most cases even in human form the moment they join). And their weapons are infinite, and renewal heals them for 5 HP per turn, and resolve transforms them into nuclear weapons since it makes their human form reach wildheart stats, wildheart surpass full transformation and full transformation become 4th tier worthy, Mordecai has 27 speed at base with resolve activated, tiger have 45 speed when capped with resolve activated, doubling every ennemy who doesn't cancel all skills and I think ennemies only cancel active skills dealing damage like Colossus or Impale, Luna etc.). When Mordecai reaches enough speed not to take double attacks at the tower from base stats with only 1 skill that can be activated just by fighting 1 or 2 ennemies in human form, I don't see how Laguz are weak.

Don't mix Lyre and tigers/wolves/Ranulf please, or even Skrimir who is simply overrated, since he joins late, has no time to catch up and is surpassed by his father anyway so there's no point in playing him while Mordecai has 8-10 chapters over him to be useful and get weapon rank up to par with Skrimir, while his def largely surpasses that of Simba (base Mordecai's def is equal to base Skrimir's def, Mordecai is 9 levels lower and can get 8 more defense in tiger form, 4 more in human form than Skrimir by the time he reaches the same level, meaning the 9 HP advantage of Skrimir is invalidated,and you can probably get resolve from somewhere if you can get it off Tauroneo before the end of p1, or otherwise directly from Skrimir since he's vastly redundant and useless, not even tanky enough for a tank when he finally comes.

Resolve + Mordecai is so awesome that I want to get to play it but I'm still blocked with my save files that all are in P1 of RD so I can't do it.

TL;DR: Tigers are the best tanks in the game, can probably use shout to counter archers and mages (didn't test it so I don't state it as a fact), have high mobility, very manageable transformation gauge, enough physical bulk and overall bulk with their insane HP base+GR to soak up damage, several ennemies doubling them isn't a problem and even allows them to abuse skills like Resolve while they have the best use for Renewal, the most garbage regen skill in most FE games, only tied with camaraderie in Fates that also suffers from the no hp syndrome letting it heal only 2-3 HP for most units most of the game. But Tigers also hit very hard at base and their cap is fearful, even at S rank strike Mordecai has 14+14=28 damage in human form, 42 in tiger form, around 3 points of strength gained by p4 which means he should have +6 attack: 48 attack with a silver weapon might (53 with S+, 65 with capped strength). By the end of P4 he can easily be S+ if you used him instead of Brom from the beginning. It means your tank is insanely sturdy, while hitting very hard in retaliation (and most tanks in RD have pretty crap base hit rates so ranged weapons aren't reliable on them at base, while Quickclaw still has 18% chance to counter ranged attack with Mordy's base speed, 30% with tiger cap, for a 1 range locked class I find it quite decent actually). And while beasts can use quickclaw, birds can use shriek to nullify ranged damage incoming base on their luck.

So Laguz may be the best implementation of shapeshifters we've seen for long (let's say since FE3 manaketes' versatility). Cats are actually the worst ones but their class skill has the highest damage output in the game, with capped strength they have 36x5=180 damage, -35 def = 145 damage on Ashera. Without her skill cancelling offensive skills, ASHERA would simply BE ONE SHOT AND OVERKILLED by a cat with capped strength on rend skill activation. Cats with rend OHKO every ennemy in the game, same for Dheghinsea.

So you're giving him resources and saying he's good? I could do that with anyone else, preferably a beorc that doesn't have to worry about reverting into a liability that's easily killed mid-enemy phase, because why the hell not? At any rate, I strongly disagree with laguz being the best implementation of shapeshifters in the series; they're far, FAR closer to the worst. The whole thing about needing to wait to transform isn't good when the game tends to send enemies at you immediately, ergo, during the time that they're vulnerable (to say nothing of the fact that this series has permanent death). So that's at least one part they can't help with (at least unless you use laguz stones, which are rare). By the time they're ready to transform, the initial rush is dead, and my army is advancing. There's still the part where they're easy prey come enemy phase, because they can't do jack nor shit the moment archers and mages set their sights on them, as opposed to beorc that could counter and possibly kill them. Considering part 4 in Radiant Dawn is a bunch of routs before endgame, this is even worse than it sounds. And because they are so easy to kill untransformed, they have to lose player phases to using olivi grass to avoid reverting; cats have it especially bad because they're faster to revert than other classes (just to put things into perspective, 2 combats and a turn passing wipe away nearly all of the gauge gain from olivi grass for cats, any more than two, and you wind up with a net loss). RE: Muarim, aside from the guy who Tormod (somehow) heavily wounded in a cutscene, he doesn't even do that good against the enemies. Also, Howl is unreliable and doesn't do damage, and that's ignoring the part where the enemy goes unpunished because they attacked a laguz at range. And the part where the attack needs to hit first.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[mangasdeouf]

36 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

So you're giving him resources and saying he's good? I could do that with anyone else, preferably a beorc that doesn't have to worry about reverting into a liability that's easily killed mid-enemy phase, because why the hell not? At any rate, I strongly disagree with laguz being the best implementation of shapeshifters in the series; they're far, FAR closer to the worst. The whole thing about needing to wait to transform isn't good when the game tends to send enemies at you immediately, ergo, during the time that they're vulnerable. So that's at least one part they can't help with (at least unless you use laguz stones, which are rare). By the time they're ready to transform, the initial rush is dead, and my army is advancing. There's still the part where they're easy prey come enemy phase, because they can't do jack nor shit the moment archers and mages set their sights on them, as opposed to beorc that could counter and possibly kill them. Considering part 4 in Radiant Dawn is a bunch of routs before endgame, this is even worse than it sounds. And because they are so easy to kill untransformed, they have to lose player phases to using olivi grass to avoid reverting; cats have it especially bad because they're faster to revert than other classes (just to put things into perspective, 2 combats and a turn passing wipe away nearly all of the gauge gain from olivi grass for cats, any more than two, and you wind up with a net loss). RE: Muarim, aside from the guy who Tormod (somehow) heavily wounded in a cutscene, he doesn't even do that good against the enemies.

 

News flash: if he's countering, he's not gaining gauge unless he either missed or did no damage. Also, he's not THAT durable in human form, especially when his low speed essentially ensures everything gets two attacks off on him; I shouldn't have to explain how much of a disaster it'd be if a mage snuck up on him while he was untransformed (which is a very real possibility because it's fog of war). . . Also, I could do what you say you could do with Mordecai with anyone else, so that ain't a point in his favour.

Explanation (I'll try to be short): 1 stat booster is 2 stat points. On a beorc, it's 2 stat points, on a Laguz, it's 4 when transformed (so giving a Laguz one stat booster in evrything except HP/luck is 2x more effective) and in human for it makes them able to stay more relevant.

Tell me how 16 def and 57 HP in part 2 make him any kind of vulnerable to physical attacks? He can take 5 hits dealing 28 damage without dying at base, which is more than Bom should be able to unless you grinded, but if you grind a Beorc then better grind a Laguz, since they don't hurt your funds only to be able to attack/counterattack, and their S/S+ weapons cost about 1400+ gold less than a silver weapon (since they're free)and are infinite (no 25 uses limit). Mages can be counted on one hand in almost every chapter of the game before the 2nd part of endgame, and Haar can simply fly to them and one shoot their sorry ass. Mages/sages are also really weak so tomes can weigh them down (their effective AS has been garbage since GBA FE or even Gaiden, that's nothing new that mages are crap), meaning that even that slow Mordecai with 9 base speed in human form can easily avoid being doubled by them (and I don't know why you would put Mordy in front of a fire sage in human form, it's the same as putting your pegasus in front of an archer, only Mordecai has 2.5x more HP to take the hit XD and most tomes hit less than most bows of the same weapon rank/equivalent power, while archers are also more accurate and often benefit from height advantage that mages rarely see in play).

Also like I said, once you put resolve on Mordy (since he should be way bulkier than Skrimir when you get the lion, and you could have already maxed a few stats on Mordy with an entire arc worth of exp, counting 2 chapters in P2 and about 5-7 in P3 with ennemies scaling in level, thus giving more exp, + they could not even be in the same group in p4, thus not having to compete with each other, and Skrimir's strength is all he needs if you want to play him this bad over Mordecai, resolve isn't needed on him because it doesn't add def or res or strength, and Skrimir hits hard enough like that not to need resolve as much as Mordy, you can also take it from Tauroneo who you are most likely to drop after P3 ends since his level and def should be too far behind already and tigers/lions are more mobile fortresses than him, while having much more effective bulk than him through HP and transformed stats).

In answer to your news flash: I've been using Laguz far more than you it seems, I've been grinding them for tens of turns in chapter 2 of part 2 (the one in the dark) and I can assure you counterattacking doesn't cancel their gauge filling after the fight. They still fill the gauge normally. But you would know if you had tried to use Laguz in human form at all. Which seems like you just looked at their speed and def and thought they weren't worth the trouble to actually think. Even Lethe can tank 2 physical ennemies at any point of P2 at base in human form, and she has 9 base def and 51 base HP, 7 def and 6 HP less than Mordecai.

Edited February 28, 2020 by mangasdeouf

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Did you try what I typed just a few comments higher than yours? Mordecai can easily take 2 physical ennemies in an ennemy phase in human form in ch2, just use him like you would use Brom: block the path, he tanks, counters melee attacks and then he transforms, eats an elixir/intermediate vulnerary (the ones healing 40 HP), destroys the ennemies coming at him, then you place him further, untransform and repeat. He should gain 1-2 levels per part 2 chapter, same in part 3 when he comes back. Eating a stat booster and manipulating level ups/BEXP makes it easy for laguz like him to cap several stats in a few level ups and human form gains massive exp per fight (more than Haar for example, and everyone can get 3-6 level ups on Haar in intermediate difficulty). In PoR though, Laguz were a chore to train and couldn't counter in human form, although their human stats were much better, I agree.

14 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

 

News flash: if he's countering, he's not going to gain gauge unless the counter misses or he does no damage. He's not that durable in human form, either; 57 HP/16 defense looks a hell of a lot less impressive when everything doubles you. I mean, this is the same crap that knights often get criticized for, and you think to PRAISE Mordecai? Really now? Also, the map in question is fog of war. I shouldn't have to explain how much of a disaster it'd be if Mordecai was caught out in human form by a mage sneaking up on him (which is a very real possibility). . .

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

Explanation (I'll try to be short): 1 stat booster is 2 stat points. On a beorc, it's 2 stat points, on a Laguz, it's 4 when transformed (so giving a Laguz one stat booster in evrything except HP/luck is 2x more effective) and in human for it makes them able to stay more relevant.

Tell me how 16 def and 57 HP in part 2 make him any kind of vulnerable to physical attacks? He can take 5 hits dealing 28 damage without dying at base, which is more than Bom should be able to unless you grinded, but if you grind a Beorc then better grind a Laguz, since they don't hurt your funds only to be able to attack/counterattack, and their S/S+ weapons cost about 1400+ gold less than a silver weapon (since they're free)and are infinite (no 25 uses limit). Mages can be counted on one hand in almost every chapter of the game before the 2nd part of endgame, and Haar can simply fly to them and one shoot their sorry ass. Mages/sages are also really weak so tomes can weigh them down (their effective AS has been garbage since GBA FE or even Gaiden, that's nothing new that mages are crap), meaning that even that slow Mordecai with 9 base speed in human form can easily avoid being doubled by them (and I don't know why you would put Mordy in front of a fire sage in human form, it's the same as putting your pegasus in front of an archer, only Mordecai has 2.5x more HP to take the hit XD and most tomes hit less than most bows of the same weapon rank/equivalent power, while archers are also more accurate and often benefit from height advantage that mages rarely see in play).

Also like I said, once you put resolve on Mordy (since he should be way bulkier than Skrimir when you get the lion, and you could have already maxed a few stats on Mordy with an entire arc worth of exp, counting 2 chapters in P2 and about 5-7 in P3 with ennemies scaling in level, thus giving more exp, + they could not even be in the same group in p4, thus not having to compete with each other, and Skrimir's strength is all he needs if you want to play him this bad over Mordecai, resolve isn't needed on him because it doesn't add def or res or strength, and Skrimir hits hard enough like that not to need resolve as much as Mordy, you can also take it from Tauroneo who you are most likely to drop after P3 ends since his level and def should be too far behind already and tigers/lions are more mobile fortresses than him, while having much more effective bulk than him through HP and transformed stats).

In answer to your news flash: I've been using Laguz far more than you it seems, I've been grinding them for tens of turns in chapter 2 of part 2 (the one in the dark) and I can assure you counterattacking doesn't cancel their gauge filling after the fight. They still fill the gauge normally. But you would know if you had tried to use Laguz in human form at all. Which seems like you just looked at their speed and def and thought they weren't worth the trouble to actually think. Even Lethe can tank 2 physical ennemies at any point of P2 at base in human form, and she has 9 base def and 51 base HP, 7 def and 6 HP less than Mordecai.

OR I could give that stat booster to a beorc and have it working all the time. I wonder which sounds better... (Hint: It's not the doubled stat boosts that only work part of the time and are useless otherwise).

Because he's getting doubled, damn it. I say once more for good measure, 57 HP/16 defense isn't so impressive when you're doubled by everything. Also, it takes a hell of a lot less time for me to beat the game than it does to get a laguz to SS strike, especially a laguz that doesn't double ever. Mages in this game also tend to not be weighed down by their tomes much, if at all UNLESS they're long range tomes (of course, if a mage is toting a long range tome, Mordecai's in big trouble since he already has an innate Provoke thanks to being a laguz).

Sure, but at the same time, he's still easy pickings untransformed, and he's still unable to do anything once archers and mages target him. Resolve fixes only one problem, and it ain't even the biggest issue he has.

Obviously; I find pretty much all the non-royal laguz to be atrociously underpowered for all the hoops I have to jump through to make them viable (the only ones I consider good are the hawks, Skrimir and Giffca, the latter of whom is essentially a royal save for being able to transform permanently). Yet in spite of that, you still seem to get things wrong. Like you did just now. The wiki says, and I quote:

Quote

They are extremely vulnerable in this state, since they have poor stats in human form, but they do increase their transform gauge by participating in combat whilst untransformed unless they do some damage to the enemy. 

Pay special attention to the bolded, italicized and underlined part. Also, if I have to grind laguz for them to be viable, isn't that a BAD thing? I mean, I go out of my way to grind Fiona, yet I have the common sense to not try to advertise her to be a good unit, because I know full damn well she ain't. A good unit doesn't force me to grind them to make them usable. So yeah, you're absolutely right about me thinking they weren't worth the trouble... BECAUSE they aren't worth the trouble. FFS. they'd have to be THAT DAMN GOOD for me to decide it was worth putting up with all their disadvantages... and most non-royal laguz just aren't even close. RE: Lethe, I have trouble seeing her still being okay after two rounds untransformed, because she's really fragile; she gets doubled by most of the map untransformed, and once again, her first map is a fog of war map; logically, I'd lead with someone like Brom, who isn't threatened by anything physical. Especially since the fog is hiding stuff like Killer Lance soldiers and a Bowgun Warrior.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[mangasdeouf]

12 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

News flash: if he's countering, he's not going to gain gauge unless the counter misses or he does no damage. He's not that durable in human form, either; 57 HP/16 defense looks a hell of a lot less impressive when everything doubles you. I mean, this is the same crap that knights often get criticized for, and you think to PRAISE Mordecai? Really now? Also, the map in question is fog of war. I shouldn't have to explain how much of a disaster it'd be if Mordecai was caught out in human form by a mage sneaking up on him (which is a very real possibility). . .

OR I could give that stat booster to a beorc and have it working all the time. I wonder which sounds better... (Hint: It's not the doubled stat boosts that only work part of the time and are useless otherwise).

Because he's getting doubled, damn it. I say once more for good measure, 57 HP/16 defense isn't so impressive when you're doubled by everything. Also, it takes a hell of a lot less time for me to beat the game than it does to get a laguz to SS strike, especially a laguz that doesn't double ever. Mages in this game also tend to not be weighed down by their tomes much, if at all UNLESS they're long range tomes (of course, if a mage is toting a long range tome, Mordecai's in big trouble since he already has an innate Provoke thanks to being a laguz).

Sure, but at the same time, he's still easy pickings untransformed, and he's still unable to do anything once archers and mages target him. Resolve fixes only one problem, and it ain't even the biggest issue he has.

Obviously; I find pretty much all the non-royal laguz to be atrociously underpowered for all the hoops I have to jump through to make them viable (the only ones I consider good are the hawks, Skrimir and Giffca, the latter of whom is essentially a royal save for being able to transform permanently). Yet in spite of that, you still seem to get things wrong. Like you did just now. The wiki says, and I quote:

Pay special attention to the bolded, italicized and underlined part. Also, if I have to grind laguz for them to be viable, isn't that a BAD thing? I mean, I go out of my way to grind Fiona, yet I have the common sense to not try to advertise her to be a good unit, because I know full damn well she ain't. A good unit doesn't force me to grind them to make them usable. So yeah, you're absolutely right about me thinking they weren't worth the trouble... BECAUSE they aren't worth the trouble. FFS. they'd have to be THAT DAMN GOOD for me to decide it was worth putting up with all their disadvantages... and most non-royal laguz just aren't even close. RE: Lethe, I have trouble seeing her still being okay after two rounds untransformed, because she's really fragile (she gets doubled by most of the map untransformed, and once again, her first map is a fog of war map; logically, I'd lead with someone like Brom, who isn't threatened by anything physical). 

I'll answer you with facts: 12 speed x2 = 24 x1.5 = 36. With 3 speed points (1 speedwings you give to Haar who has 33 or 34 speed cap, who will never double Ashera outside easy mode and Haar has a hard time getting into resolve activation area without being in danger, since the only ennemies he has to fear for the whole game are thunder mages and thunder spirits/magical final bosses (Lehran); and 1 spd by level up) he doubles Ashera. Mordecai with resolve (easy to activate since he can transform after he can activate it) and these 3 speed points doubles the final boss from his base stats. Transformed, Mordecai is about as tanky on the physical side as Caineghis once transformed (if you raise Mordecai as you would raise your general/Aran) and he can form an A support for bonus anything (his personal affinity giving 1.5 def/atk). He can reach 25 luck by level 30 easily, raising his dodge rate (both crit and normal dodge) by 10, with an earth affinity partner he would have 25 more dodge, with a water affinity 3 atk 3 def...Radiant Dawn has the easiest support system in any FE game outside maybe SOV (that doesn't even need anything but be in the same chapters to raise supports) and I don't really know PoR support system so I can't talk about it.

With wildheart, Mordecai has better defense + hp than Tauroneo, enough speed at base not to be doubled by everything, with 1 speed point he reaches 15 which means not much would double him in Part 3 and 2 level ups in def lead him to 27 def with wildheart, 3 points away from Muarim as a fully transformed tiger (45% def growth for Mordy, enough to get those 2 points by part 4while using him much less than I suggest). With speedwings x1, he reaches 16 speed from base with wildheart, 18 with a speed level up (not much doubles him in P4 and even then with nearly 30 def they won't deal more than chip damage to his 60+ HP with around 30 def). You can switch transformed/human forms as much as you want to gain exp against a weak ennemy or tank several ennemies. With provoke, Mordecai easily keeps the focus on himself while in human form, which means you can safely raise him 1 on 1 when he can counterattack, which will also raise his WEXP.

If you use Mordy, you're guaranteed to have a good tank with good mobility even indoors, who can take the focus on him and never find himself out of weapons and doesn't need to buy any weapon (just buy him concoctions/elixirs, that's basically all he needs). Mordecai isn't a king, but he's certainly better than a good part of those who compete for his role simply because his bases are good and his only problem can be fixed easily. Actually, I'd compare Mordy with Revelations Silas. Only Mordy has way more physical durability (actually as much as Benny/Xander) and less magical durability and his weapon is infinite while normal units'weapons have limited uses (Silas has no advantage of weapon uses against his competition since everyone has unlimited weapon uses). Mordy also comes earlier than Silas in Rev since P1 has 2 units who are forced into endgame while P2/3/4 units that come in Ike's party with Nephenee have the best availability in the game, simply put, alongside Ike's group. Olivi grass aren't even needed but you can always use them, and laguz stones help in endgame if you bring the Rock into endgame.

With all that, Mordecai shows what a good tank shapeshifter can be like in a game that really doesn't give much help to them. If he can be this good (if you know how to play him that is) while being the target of so much bad design (especially speed shouldn't be halved in human form), then how would he be if he didn't suffer the bane of non royal laguz with bad base speed? A little tweak would be enough to make Laguz so good that they would render Beorcs useless (basically, beast form being their base stats and human form having 2/3rds of their transformed stats instead of 50%, or speed not being counted in transformation just like luck and HP don't change, the first would be closer to PoR and the second one being a simple adjustment that would completely make strong Laguz the best unit type when used correctly, not enough for cats and ravens and maybe falcons though since they would stil lack strength in human form).

Wildheart also allows to fill the gauge for complete transformation, so you can switch between complete and incomplete, the latter being good for when the gauge is low and the previous when you need the stats.

The last tweak would be simply giving them normal GR instead of shitty ones (although at the rate they gain exp, you can put blossom on them and it won't be much different but the effects on stats would be absolutely outrageous, still wouldn't fix the problem that speed should not be halved in human form since even 30% growth isn't stellar even if the number of points one has to gain in the stat is very low, the earlier the better). With Blossom, Laguz become really outstanding in no time in beast form and you have less to worry about in human form.

_______________

Not completely out of topic, I think our conversation can bring much to the debate on shapeshifters, how to make them good without being instantly OP units. Laguz have their flows but are certainly worth more than many players give them credit for. By the way, cats don't need to ca strength for their mastery skill to OHKO Ashera and Dheghinsea, actually they need 31 strength (5 points less than their cap) which means 16 strength in human form, 2 points more than Ranulf's base (with a power ring he would OHKO them from base stats). But of course these bosses have nihil so it can't happen. Just a thing that is nice to tell when we discuss unit strength (especially since many people praise proc skills in Fates where units don't have as much activation rate for most of the main game as they have in RD on top of proc skills often being learnt very late, since part of them are lv 35 skills).

I think we should now advance in the brainstorming in order to concretize some ideas into mod/rom hacking.

[Shadow Mir]

42 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

I'll answer you with facts: 12 speed x2 = 24 x1.5 = 36. With 3 speed points (1 speedwings you give to Haar who has 33 or 34 speed cap, who will never double Ashera outside easy mode and Haar has a hard time getting into resolve activation area without being in danger, since the only ennemies he has to fear for the whole game are thunder mages and thunder spirits/magical final bosses (Lehran); and 1 spd by level up) he doubles Ashera. Mordecai with resolve (easy to activate since he can transform after he can activate it) and these 3 speed points doubles the final boss from his base stats. Transformed, Mordecai is about as tanky on the physical side as Caineghis once transformed (if you raise Mordecai as you would raise your general/Aran) and he can form an A support for bonus anything (his personal affinity giving 1.5 def/atk). He can reach 25 luck by level 30 easily, raising his dodge rate (both crit and normal dodge) by 10, with an earth affinity partner he would have 25 more dodge, with a water affinity 3 atk 3 def...Radiant Dawn has the easiest support system in any FE game outside maybe SOV (that doesn't even need anything but be in the same chapters to raise supports) and I don't really know PoR support system so I can't talk about it.

With wildheart, Mordecai has better defense + hp than Tauroneo, enough speed at base not to be doubled by everything, with 1 speed point he reaches 15 which means not much would double him in Part 3 and 2 level ups in def lead him to 27 def with wildheart, 3 points away from Muarim as a fully transformed tiger (45% def growth for Mordy, enough to get those 2 points by part 4while using him much less than I suggest). With speedwings x1, he reaches 16 speed from base with wildheart, 18 with a speed level up (not much doubles him in P4 and even then with nearly 30 def they won't deal more than chip damage to his 60+ HP with around 30 def). You can switch transformed/human forms as much as you want to gain exp against a weak ennemy or tank several ennemies. With provoke, Mordecai easily keeps the focus on himself while in human form, which means you can safely raise him 1 on 1 when he can counterattack, which will also raise his WEXP.

If you use Mordy, you're guaranteed to have a good tank with good mobility even indoors, who can take the focus on him and never find himself out of weapons and doesn't need to buy any weapon (just buy him concoctions/elixirs, that's basically all he needs). Mordecai isn't a king, but he's certainly better than a good part of those who compete for his role simply because his bases are good and his only problem can be fixed easily. Actually, I'd compare Mordy with Revelations Silas. Only Mordy has way more physical durability (actually as much as Benny/Xander) and less magical durability and his weapon is infinite while normal units'weapons have limited uses (Silas has no advantage of weapon uses against his competition since everyone has unlimited weapon uses). Mordy also comes earlier than Silas in Rev since P1 has 2 units who are forced into endgame while P2/3/4 units that come in Ike's party with Nephenee have the best availability in the game, simply put, alongside Ike's group. Olivi grass aren't even needed but you can always use them, and laguz stones help in endgame if you bring the Rock into endgame.

With all that, Mordecai shows what a good tank shapeshifter can be like in a game that really doesn't give much help to them. If he can be this good (if you know how to play him that is) while being the target of so much bad design (especially speed shouldn't be halved in human form), then how would he be if he didn't suffer the bane of non royal laguz with bad base speed? A little tweak would be enough to make Laguz so good that they would render Beorcs useless (basically, beast form being their base stats and human form having 2/3rds of their transformed stats instead of 50%, or speed not being counted in transformation just like luck and HP don't change, the first would be closer to PoR and the second one being a simple adjustment that would completely make strong Laguz the best unit type when used correctly, not enough for cats and ravens and maybe falcons though since they would stil lack strength in human form).

Wildheart also allows to fill the gauge for complete transformation, so you can switch between complete and incomplete, the latter being good for when the gauge is low and the previous when you need the stats.

The last tweak would be simply giving them normal GR instead of shitty ones (although at the rate they gain exp, you can put blossom on them and it won't be much different but the effects on stats would be absolutely outrageous, still wouldn't fix the problem that speed should not be halved in human form since even 30% growth isn't stellar even if the number of points one has to gain in the stat is very low, the earlier the better). With Blossom, Laguz become really outstanding in no time in beast form and you have less to worry about in human form.

_______________

Not completely out of topic, I think our conversation can bring much to the debate on shapeshifters, how to make them good without being instantly OP units. Laguz have their flows but are certainly worth more than many players give them credit for. By the way, cats don't need to ca strength for their mastery skill to OHKO Ashera and Dheghinsea, actually they need 31 strength (5 points less than their cap) which means 16 strength in human form, 2 points more than Ranulf's base (with a power ring he would OHKO them from base stats). But of course these bosses have nihil so it can't happen. Just a thing that is nice to tell when we discuss unit strength (especially since many people praise proc skills in Fates where units don't have as much activation rate for most of the main game as they have in RD on top of proc skills often being learnt very late, since part of them are lv 35 skills).

I think we should now advance in the brainstorming in order to concretize some ideas into mod/rom hacking.

You want facts? Let me drop another fact on you. Even with Resolve, he still can't counter archers and mages and is still restricted by gauge. To quote everyone's favorite blue hedgehog, that's NO GOOD! Especially in a game where enemy phase is more important than player phase. Having a unit that needs to work around gauge to avoid reverting mid-enemy phase, which is essentially a death sentence because untransformed laguz stats are hot garbage, does nothing but bog me down. And there's still the part where you're giving him a speedwing, which is an extremely valuable resource. What if I decided to give that speedwing - and Resolve - to, say, Haar instead? Then I get someone who can do all the crap you're trying to sell Mordecai as capable of doing, except he doesn't have to worry about turning into a fragile punching bag mid-enemy phase, and can counter - and kill - archers and mages.

Except he's now far from invincible. And that's saying nothing of the fact that the only Wildheart scroll is on Volug, whom is in another army entirely. What are you gonna do about that? And again with the speedwings. Why would I give it to him as opposed to using it on someone else, like a beorc who always benefits from the +2 speed???

And needs to worry about reverting, because at that point, he's royally screwed if enemies can still attack him; either way, he's still been put out of commission as I have to wait for him to fill his gauge again. Also, you're lying through your teeth by saying Mordecai's "only problem" can be fixed easily. What about the fact that he can't counter ranged enemies? Or the fact that the moment he reverts, he's in big trouble? No amount of favoritism can fix those. By the way, Nephenee doesn't have the best availability in the game; that's Ilyana.

No, he doesn't. Not when the royals are a thing and render him obsolete (which, incidentally, is another of my biggest complaints about laguz; for the insane amount of hoops I have to jump through to raise them, not only is the reward meager, but the game eventually gives me units that are so overpowered as to render them obsolete anyhow). 

Once again, Wildheart is on someone else in an entirely different army. How are you gonna address that?

[NinjaMonkey]

18 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Level to 40 instead of 30.

They already do level up to 40, as that is when the Herons get their final Chant ability, Recovery (I see you didn't look up Radiant Dawn's gameplay features).

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by NinjaMonkey

[Emperor Hardin]

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It is possible to face Yarne as an enemy in his own paralogue, but you're right about no generics. Even Fates, as flawed as its integration of shapeshifters was, had at least one chapter each (in Birthright and Conquest) where you fought them.

You fought invisible beasts in Revelation and the DLC chapters too.

[mangasdeouf]

36 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You want facts? Let me drop another fact on you. Even with Resolve, he still can't counter archers and mages and is still restricted by gauge. To quote everyone's favorite blue hedgehog, that's NO GOOD! Especially in a game where enemy phase is more important than player phase. Having a unit that needs to work around gauge to avoid reverting mid-enemy phase, which is essentially a death sentence because untransformed laguz stats are hot garbage, does nothing but bog me down. And there's still the part where you're giving him a speedwing, which is an extremely valuable resource. What if I decided to give that speedwing - and Resolve - to, say, Haar instead? Then I get someone who can do all the crap you're trying to sell Mordecai as capable of doing, except he doesn't have to worry about turning into a fragile punching bag mid-enemy phase, and can counter - and kill - archers and mages.

Except he's now far from invincible. And that's saying nothing of the fact that the only Wildheart scroll is on Volug, whom is in another army entirely. What are you gonna do about that? And again with the speedwings. Why would I give it to him as opposed to using it on someone else, like a beorc who always benefits from the +2 speed???

And needs to worry about reverting, because at that point, he's royally screwed if enemies can still attack him; either way, he's still been put out of commission as I have to wait for him to fill his gauge again. Also, you're lying through your teeth by saying Mordecai's "only problem" can be fixed easily. What about the fact that he can't counter ranged enemies? Or the fact that the moment he reverts, he's in big trouble? No amount of favoritism can fix those. By the way, Nephenee doesn't have the best availability in the game; that's Ilyana.

No, he doesn't. Not when the royals are a thing and render him obsolete (which, incidentally, is another of my biggest complaints about laguz; for the insane amount of hoops I have to jump through to raise them, not only is the reward meager, but the game eventually gives me units that are so overpowered as to render them obsolete anyhow). 

Once again, Wildheart is on someone else in an entirely different army. How are you gonna address that?

If my memory is right you get a wilheart scroll on Janaff or something like thatn but maybe I'm only mixing with PoR. You can still take Wildheart from Volug who doesn't want it anyway since he's too weak to be useful in half form, and he has garbage potential with low bases leading him to be ditched anyway. If you give wildheart to Jill or Zihark, I guess you can get it by recruiting them in chapter 8 of part 3. By the time you get there, Mordecai with wildheart will have no fear from units who tickle him and will be able to stay in half form for as long as he pleases since he can just unshift>shift to get back to full half form gauge (if you didn't know that I can't help you, you'll have to replay the game). Like I said, 16 def means he would have 24 def at base in half form, with 4 level ups of def he would have 30 (or 27 with 2 level ups of def).

I don't oppose Mordecai to Haar since they're at opposite sides of the map, Haar doesn't need a speedwings to solo and has never needed it, it's only for LTC conveniance, in regular play Haar caps speed most of the time by himself (and t3 Haar speed cap still doesn't equal Mordecai with resolve, why not give resolve to Haar then? Because of the 12-20 HP difference with which Mordy can take more hits he's vulnerable to and human form makes it very easy to get to =<50% HP, 50% of 60 is still 30, it's safe when you take little no damage from late game physical ennemies, and FYI Mordy with capped def has nearly Haar's def in half form, 33, with 22 speed, 33 with resolve, which means that Mordy in half form has about equal parametters with Haar who capped def and speed in t3, and if you use a dragon aura for 5 def Mordy has 38 def, still in half form, 49 in full beast form).

Like I said, quickclaw has spd% chance to counter at range and inflict paralysis. If I want a beast Laguz to counter at range, I give them quickclaw. It's not even useful to counter at range in lategame since only forged tomahawk or alondite/Ike's legendary sword have high might 1-2 range, and with 38 str, 16 damage tomahawk, you deal 54 damage per attack. Might as well use a legendary weapon in melee and one round. Forges also cost money, if you forge every 1-2 range weapon before the tower you'll be unable to buy anything else that might be useful, like healing items/staves.

But anyway, it's useless to argue with you sadly, you don't even agree to disagree, only pointing negatives and never discussing alternatives or how you could do anything else than what you're used to. Giving a speedwings to Mordy is a choice, like giving it to Haar or giving speedwings + Charlotte + tonics to Xander to let him double. You make your choices I make mine, and whether yours is more efficient than mine depends on what we expect each unit to do. I don't expect Xander to double, thus it's useless for me to give him Charlotte and a speedwing, except if I make him a ninja or Dread Fighter. Same for Mordy, if I find you good strat to use him, and for him to be better than generals, then I'll use him the way I like. He's still a general with good mobility which is rare, and Haar is busy soloing half the map that's not very accessible by foot. Ike is less tanky and has late promotion problem, Gatrie is good but general movement, and te rest of the GM have poor to piss poor bulk. Titania starts okay but with too low hp for my taste if my memory is correct.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

If my memory is right you get a wilheart scroll on Janaff or something like thatn but maybe I'm only mixing with PoR. You can still take Wildheart from Volug who doesn't want it anyway since he's too weak to be useful in half form, and he has garbage potential with low bases leading him to be ditched anyway. If you give wildheart to Jill or Zihark, I guess you can get it by recruiting them in chapter 8 of part 3. By the time you get there, Mordecai with wildheart will have no fear from units who tickle him and will be able to stay in half form for as long as he pleases since he can just unshift>shift to get back to full half form gauge (if you didn't know that I can't help you, you'll have to replay the game). Like I said, 16 def means he would have 24 def at base in half form, with 4 level ups of def he would have 30 (or 27 with 2 level ups of def).

I don't oppose Mordecai to Haar since they're at opposite sides of the map, Haar doesn't need a speedwings to solo and has never needed it, it's only for LTC conveniance, in regular play Haar caps speed most of the time by himself (and t3 Haar speed cap still doesn't equal Mordecai with resolve, why not give resolve to Haar then? Because of the 12-20 HP difference with which Mordy can take more hits he's vulnerable to and human form makes it very easy to get to =<50% HP, 50% of 60 is still 30, it's safe when you take little no damage from late game physical ennemies, and FYI Mordy with capped def has nearly Haar's def in half form, 33, with 22 speed, 33 with resolve, which means that Mordy in half form has about equal parametters with Haar who capped def and speed in t3, and if you use a dragon aura for 5 def Mordy has 38 def, still in half form, 49 in full beast form).

Like I said, quickclaw has spd% chance to counter at range and inflict paralysis. If I want a beast Laguz to counter at range, I give them quickclaw. It's not even useful to counter at range in lategame since only forged tomahawk or alondite/Ike's legendary sword have high might 1-2 range, and with 38 str, 16 damage tomahawk, you deal 54 damage per attack. Might as well use a legendary weapon in melee and one round. Forges also cost money, if you forge every 1-2 range weapon before the tower you'll be unable to buy anything else that might be useful, like healing items/staves.

But anyway, it's useless to argue with you sadly, you don't even agree to disagree, only pointing negatives and never discussing alternatives or how you could do anything else than what you're used to. Giving a speedwings to Mordy is a choice, like giving it to Haar or giving speedwings + Charlotte + tonics to Xander to let him double. You make your choices I make mine, and whether yours is more efficient than mine depends on what we expect each unit to do. I don't expect Xander to double, thus it's useless for me to give him Charlotte and a speedwing, except if I make him a ninja or Dread Fighter. Same for Mordy, if I find you good strat to use him, and for him to be better than generals, then I'll use him the way I like. He's still a general with good mobility which is rare, and Haar is busy soloing half the map that's not very accessible by foot. Ike is less tanky and has late promotion problem, Gatrie is good but general movement, and te rest of the GM have poor to piss poor bulk. Titania starts okay but with too low hp for my taste if my memory is correct.

I forgot about that one; I forgot that the item location page doesn't cover items that characters have on them. Anyway, Wildheart isn't much help; even Ranulf, who's supposed to be one of the better non-royals, isn't very good with it, so what chance does Mordecai have of being good with it? Answer: None. Also, recruiting Jill or Zihark in chapter 7 or part 3 is a very easy way to shoot yourself in the foot, considering that not only are they redundant, they're also going to be underleveled.

Which implies taking Mordecai to endgame... over the laguz royals, which render him obsolete. Even if I wasn't using them, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to find better units to take into the tower than him.

Yeah, if you're being attacked at range, which is a very bad thing when you're a laguz, in case you already forgot, which you shouldn't have with how much I've been pounding it into your head. Also, Quickclaw isn't reliable, nor does it paralyze (that would be Howl, which is terrible for the same reasons as Quickclaw). Also, no mention of Tempest Blade, which has the same might as Alondite and Ragnell?

I don't see someone who needs to transform first and is an easy kill if he should ever revert in the middle of enemy phase to be much of an improvement, if they can even claim to be an improvement at all. Also, you have no room to speak, seeing as you only look at the positives and completely ignore the negatives. I cannot consider Mordecai a good unit when he's bogged down by the host of weaknesses that come with being a laguz unit. Which goes back to what @Alastor15243 said - the fatal flaw of transforming units is that they tend to not be very versatile, and they tend to not be good enough at what they can do to make up for it. The laguz are pretty much Exhibit A as to this. Most of them aren't strong enough to warrant using over beorc, especially considering the effort needed to make them viable.

[mangasdeouf]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I forgot about that one; I forgot that the item location page doesn't cover items that characters have on them. Anyway, Wildheart isn't much help; even Ranulf, who's supposed to be one of the better non-royals, isn't very good with it, so what chance does Mordecai have of being good with it? Answer: None. Also, recruiting Jill or Zihark in chapter 7 or part 3 is a very easy way to shoot yourself in the foot, considering that not only are they redundant, they're also going to be underleveled.

Which implies taking Mordecai to endgame... over the laguz royals, which render him obsolete. Even if I wasn't using them, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to find better units to take into the tower than him.

Yeah, if you're being attacked at range, which is a very bad thing when you're a laguz, in case you already forgot, which you shouldn't have with how much I've been pounding it into your head. Also, Quickclaw isn't reliable, nor does it paralyze (that would be Howl, which is terrible for the same reasons as Quickclaw). Also, no mention of Tempest Blade, which has the same might as Alondite and Ragnell?

I don't see someone who needs to transform first and is an easy kill if he should ever revert in the middle of enemy phase to be much of an improvement, if they can even claim to be an improvement at all. Also, you have no room to speak, seeing as you only look at the positives and completely ignore the negatives. I cannot consider Mordecai a good unit when he's bogged down by the host of weaknesses that come with being a laguz unit. Which goes back to what @Alastor15243 said - the fatal flaw of transforming units is that they tend to not be very versatile, and they tend to not be good enough at what they can do to make up for it. The laguz are pretty much Exhibit A as to this. Most of them aren't strong enough to warrant using over beorc, especially considering the effort needed to make them viable.

Jill isn't useful in any way for GM so let's let her with the noob group. Zihark is an inferior version of Edward, who is straight up better than Nolan, Volug, Meg, Micayah, Leonardo, Fiona, well, his only long term competition is Jill, and Jill has atrocious bases she doesn't get over before promotion, can't double with steel until lv 20 without an energy drop, her HP will remain low for most of the game...Yeah, Jill is good late game material, but she's awful to get going. Zihark's bases are correct...and...that's it. Promote Eddie around lv 16-18 and he's straight up better. BTW with 1-2 range blades it's no longer a problem to bring swordies until late game when their caps are too low to deal good damage. Anyway there's 0 point in raising anyone in the DB since Stefan outclasses every SM anyway without any ressources and Volke is the only dagger user you need. In the end, the only DB member worth rising is Aran who will really be your physical wall in this Birthright-like cast of squishies. Just use the units that are the more practical for p3 and call it a day, DB is garb sadly. Which means they won't use any ressource and you can transfer their skills on whoever you want. Zihark isn't even useful when Edward with Nolan support has as much dodge while hitting harder and taking more hits from physical armies you fight in p3. Nolan never starts to deal damage so the hype on him is none of my business. Better use Kieran for a bit since Crimean knights faction is full of shitty units without any long term use. Devdan is also a better version of Geoffrey, and even Elincia's uncle is better than Geoffrey with 0 investment.

All that is said makes it clear that part 1 has nothing to give for long term use outside Jill, heavy favoritism Edward (by favoritism I mean feeding him the exp instead of Nolan, Leonardo, LOLmages, and keeping the rest for Jill and Aran). So Zihark can carry anything you want to the GM and if Tauroneo's resolve is movable in p1, Ilyana can give it as soon as chapter 2 p3 (or is it chap 3?). If you waited for Jill's growths to pick up, you can save an energy ring for GMs for a long term use unit. Maybe even a dragonshield.

You can drop Mordy right before the tower, but he's very useful for the first maps full of physical units (literally swarms of halberdiers, generals, and other common Beignion unit types, only the bosses have high magic damage). Haar is also in the same boat since his speed cap is garb for endgame bosses and his res is crap while his HP stays lower than any Laguz including Lyre. At least Mordy can take a laguz stone in endgame. By the way, capped Kurthnaga is barely better than a tiger, strictly inferior to a lion, which is a big balance issue on top of his garbage base stats in endgame. His only use seems his aura but it requires to be adjacent to a unit that has no stats by the end of the game.

You always overdo it when calling laguz bad for EP. They can keep their transformation for about 6-8 fights, their transformed stats are good (better than beorcs at any stage of the game) and for Mordecai's case, he has the same def cap when half transformed as most physical beorcs in t3, while having +20/25 HP over them, please don't call him squishy, that + 22 speed if you manage to cap it (not too hard with bexp and save-scumming), he won't get doubled much and the units doubling will tickle him, after all even 5x2 is only 10 of 70+ HP, which means he can still take 6 more attacks before dying, and you can unshift>shift>use elixir/concoction (with resolve he can't get doubled at all when it's active).

With his automatic def capping around lv 25, Mordecai is the most durable unit with good availability for the whole game alongside Haar whose base durability is way inferior (but at a time Mordecai doesn't have access to wildheart so it evens out). Mordecai's rivals for his tank spot are Gatrie (6 movement), Boyd (garbage base speed AND def, still not enough HP to compare), Kieran (garbage availability, garbage movement penalties in about every late game chapter he's playable in), Makalov (LOL), Titania (not really durable and can't double Ashera, maybe not even Lehran whose speed isn't engraved in my mind). Skrimir has only 1 level of support, maybe 2 before you enter the tower (I didn't remember support bonuses were rounded up so water affinity gives 2 def/atk by itself, got to give him some good partner for braindead offense, and 33+2=35 effective def, not really squishy in half form , he's as tanky as Brom but 5 chapters earlier and with 2-3 more unpenalized movement and smite, and +10-15 HP).

I think the blue tiger does his job as good as a unit without a 1-2 range weapon can, and 1-2 is really overrated since most ennemies have 1 range and the other ones aren't dangerous by any means. Mages go down in 1 hit from your Haar/other mobile units with damage, You could also raise one of the pegasi only to kill these bitch mages once the path is cleared from archers and warriors. Tanith has the best strength, Sigrun has the best res, Marcia is a bit weird and has the best def if I remember well. You said Laguz are useless but they're the only units who are guaranteed to reach Lehran in the first 2 turns and kill him as soon as they can gang up on him, they also have enough HP to take 1 or 2 magic hit from the spirits and Lehran himself.

So here we have the typical general, only he's rocking paladin movement with less terrain penalty. Mordecai is Duessel undercover, who traded 3 speed to cap his def and get a permanent Vidofnir boost. What can hurt Mordecai has to be feared or instantly killed since it's most likely a fire sage. I don't see how people can still think he's bad and praise Keaton or Effie who gets deleted very fast. Keaton has middling def with good HP...for no HP emblem, but nothing compared with Laguz HP and raw stats, and infantry movement is straight up inferior to cavalry movement. Keaton feels like he's in half form the whole game stats-wise (well strength-wise not exactly but speed and def clearly).

When you say they don't excell at what they do, I guess you completely forget that what they do is having massive raw stats and in RD it's exactly what they have, wildheart giving them Beorc t3 stat caps while full transformation makes them strictly superior to their Beorc competition for the time they can keep their animal form. In this regard, they do what they do better than anyone. Put a capped tiger or lion against BK with nihil and Zelgius can go find himself another way to cheat than having cheat caps for a Beorc, a cheat skill and an OP sword. He would take about as much damage as he deals per fight, the only downside for the laguz is if he doesn't play fair in the duel (but in the lore he doesn't play magical sword against melee ennemies so why would he play unfair in game?) otherwise 2 elixirs and olivi grass should be enough for the laguz to solo BK with gauge management (easier if you don't have to manage it). Ike beats BK and Caineghis beats Ike, that's the fate of the best antagonist in the Tellius series.

[Shadow Mir]

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Jill isn't useful in any way for GM so let's let her with the noob group. Zihark is an inferior version of Edward, who is straight up better than Nolan, Volug, Meg, Micayah, Leonardo, Fiona, well, his only long term competition is Jill, and Jill has atrocious bases she doesn't get over before promotion, can't double with steel until lv 20 without an energy drop, her HP will remain low for most of the game...Yeah, Jill is good late game material, but she's awful to get going. Zihark's bases are correct...and...that's it. Promote Eddie around lv 16-18 and he's straight up better. BTW with 1-2 range blades it's no longer a problem to bring swordies until late game when their caps are too low to deal good damage. Anyway there's 0 point in raising anyone in the DB since Stefan outclasses every SM anyway without any ressources and Volke is the only dagger user you need. In the end, the only DB member worth rising is Aran who will really be your physical wall in this Birthright-like cast of squishies. Just use the units that are the more practical for p3 and call it a day, DB is garb sadly. Which means they won't use any ressource and you can transfer their skills on whoever you want. Zihark isn't even useful when Edward with Nolan support has as much dodge while hitting harder and taking more hits from physical armies you fight in p3. Nolan never starts to deal damage so the hype on him is none of my business. Better use Kieran for a bit since Crimean knights faction is full of shitty units without any long term use. Devdan is also a better version of Geoffrey, and even Elincia's uncle is better than Geoffrey with 0 investment.

All that is said makes it clear that part 1 has nothing to give for long term use outside Jill, heavy favoritism Edward (by favoritism I mean feeding him the exp instead of Nolan, Leonardo, LOLmages, and keeping the rest for Jill and Aran). So Zihark can carry anything you want to the GM and if Tauroneo's resolve is movable in p1, Ilyana can give it as soon as chapter 2 p3 (or is it chap 3?). If you waited for Jill's growths to pick up, you can save an energy ring for GMs for a long term use unit. Maybe even a dragonshield.

A lot of this is bullshit. First off, Edward is the exact type of unit the Dawn Brigade does NOT need. Their situation is already shitty enough as is, and a fragile melee unit isn't going to help me any, especially knowing that the first few chapters are merciless, as in "you lose if ANY ally dies" merciless. In addition, it's not like the investing into him will pay off, since thanks to BEXP being abusable as it is, anyone you're using is likely to cap their important stats anyway, meaning that Edward forces me to put in extra effort for no payoff. There's no way in hell I'd consider him better than Zihark, who renders him obsolete, much less Mia. RE: Jill, if she can't double with steel, use iron instead. It's as easy as falling out of bed. RE: Nolan, who are you going to use to carry the team in the early going? "I'm an evade based unit who faces 60+ hit rates from axes despite them having WTD on me" Edward? Sothe, who can't be everywhere at once and falls off as the game progresses? RE: Danved, he sucks. He focuses on the wrong stats, and is outshadowed by both Aran and Nephenee, who specialize in more important stats, because of it. His only good growths are in HP and Luck (sound familiar? Because that's damn near every laguz in the game).

On the contrary, I'd say the part 1 units AND Crimean Knights have more to offer me over the long term over a laguz unit who'll never be unable to get rid of their biggest flaws, and thus will never, EVER be able to contribute as much or more than a beorc unit who doesn't need to worry about suddenly being a helpless punching bag during enemy phase. And once again, recruiting Zihark into the mercenaries is shooting yourself in the foot in such a way the bullet ricochets and takes off your arm as well. Ergo, you accomplish nothing but unnecessarily crippling yourself.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

You always overdo it when calling laguz bad for EP. They can keep their transformation for about 6-8 fights, their transformed stats are good (better than beorcs at any stage of the game) and for Mordecai's case, he has the same def cap when half transformed as most physical beorcs in t3, while having +20/25 HP over them, please don't call him squishy, that + 22 speed if you manage to cap it (not too hard with bexp and save-scumming), he won't get doubled much and the units doubling will tickle him, after all even 5x2 is only 10 of 70+ HP, which means he can still take 6 more attacks before dying, and you can unshift>shift>use elixir/concoction (with resolve he can't get doubled at all when it's active).

More bullshit. What part of "laguz can't counter ranged attackers" (fun fact: Literally everything in the last three parts of endgame is a ranged attacker) do you fail to grasp? Because no amount of favoritism and TLC will ever undo this fatal flaw. And gauge is always a problem, considering that an untransformed laguz is about as resilient as a bug - and gets squished as easily as one! High HP doesn't mean much when you're doubled by everything and your defense ain't high enough to make up for it. I say again, having a laguz only weakens my team, because their untransformed state is a liability and they don't have enough going for them to make up for that.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

You can drop Mordy right before the tower, but he's very useful for the first maps full of physical units (literally swarms of halberdiers, generals, and other common Beignion unit types, only the bosses have high magic damage). Haar is also in the same boat since his speed cap is garb for endgame bosses and his res is crap while his HP stays lower than any Laguz including Lyre. At least Mordy can take a laguz stone in endgame. By the way, capped Kurthnaga is barely better than a tiger, strictly inferior to a lion, which is a big balance issue on top of his garbage base stats in endgame. His only use seems his aura but it requires to be adjacent to a unit that has no stats by the end of the game.

And watch him get swarmed by spirits who don't care about his defense, because they attack his garbage resistance and he can't fight back, and ultimately get killed. Tigers suck harder than SSB64 Link's recovery in endgame. At least Haar can equip something to discourage ranged attacks, knowing that the AI loves picking on units that can't counterattack, AKA, every laguz that's not a dragon (the royals are powerful enough to ignore this. Non-royal laguz? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... No). And this is ignoring the insane amount of hoops I'd have to jump through to get them endgame ready because they're either easy kills or they have garbage experience gain (fun fact: a level 20+ laguz levels as fast as a third tier beorc. Too bad they don't have the stats of one!). Anyway, about the only part where Mordecai's useful is in 2-E. The  Greil Mercenaries aren't sorely lacking in durable units like the Dawn Brigade was.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

When you say they don't excell at what they do, I guess you completely forget that what they do is having massive raw stats and in RD it's exactly what they have, wildheart giving them Beorc t3 stat caps while full transformation makes them strictly superior to their Beorc competition for the time they can keep their animal form. In this regard, they do what they do better than anyone. Put a capped tiger or lion against BK with nihil and Zelgius can go find himself another way to cheat than having cheat caps for a Beorc, a cheat skill and an OP sword. He would take about as much damage as he deals per fight, the only downside for the laguz is if he doesn't play fair in the duel (but in the lore he doesn't play magical sword against melee ennemies so why would he play unfair in game?) otherwise 2 elixirs and olivi grass should be enough for the laguz to solo BK with gauge management (easier if you don't have to manage it). Ike beats BK and Caineghis beats Ike, that's the fate of the best antagonist in the Tellius series.

I mean they are stuck with 1 range, which is a Very Bad Thing in a game where most of the action happens in enemy phase, and their stats aren't good enough to make up for this, barring the purposefully overpowered royals. Not to mention I can just give beorc silver weapons, braves, or even effective weapons if they're struggling to contribute. If a laguz struggles to deal damage? They're SOL. Have fun having them attack 70 times while also minding their gauge! Also, quit bringing up impossible scenarios.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

With his automatic def capping around lv 25, Mordecai is the most durable unit with good availability for the whole game alongside Haar whose base durability is way inferior (but at a time Mordecai doesn't have access to wildheart so it evens out). Mordecai's rivals for his tank spot are Gatrie (6 movement), Boyd (garbage base speed AND def, still not enough HP to compare), Kieran (garbage availability, garbage movement penalties in about every late game chapter he's playable in), Makalov (LOL), Titania (not really durable and can't double Ashera, maybe not even Lehran whose speed isn't engraved in my mind). Skrimir has only 1 level of support, maybe 2 before you enter the tower (I didn't remember support bonuses were rounded up so water affinity gives 2 def/atk by itself, got to give him some good partner for braindead offense, and 33+2=35 effective def, not really squishy in half form , he's as tanky as Brom but 5 chapters earlier and with 2-3 more unpenalized movement and smite, and +10-15 HP).

With what? BEXP that I'm better off saving for units that cap stats? Stat boosters that I could just as easily give to anybody else? Because Mordecai won't cap defense until level 30 on average. Remember what I said about laguz experience gain? Have fun with that.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I think the blue tiger does his job as good as a unit without a 1-2 range weapon can, and 1-2 is really overrated since most ennemies have 1 range and the other ones aren't dangerous by any means. Mages go down in 1 hit from your Haar/other mobile units with damage, You could also raise one of the pegasi only to kill these bitch mages once the path is cleared from archers and warriors. Tanith has the best strength, Sigrun has the best res, Marcia is a bit weird and has the best def if I remember well. You said Laguz are useless but they're the only units who are guaranteed to reach Lehran in the first 2 turns and kill him as soon as they can gang up on him, they also have enough HP to take 1 or 2 magic hit from the spirits and Lehran himself.

Bullshit. Once again, most of the action happens on enemy phase, and laguz being range locked compromises their enemy phase, because the moment archers, mages and other ranged units come along, all they can do is stand there and take the hit without being able to do anything in return as they lose gauge. That slows me down, especially in part 4, where most of the pre-endgame chapters are routs. FFS, that's the same reason archers and myrmidons tend to get railed on in most games. Beorc can counter and possibly kill those units, thus allowing me to move on. Also, Tanith isn't that good - her speed is rather unimpressive for a pegasus unit, who are supposed to be specialized in speed. And I say laguz are useless because they're obsoleted HARD by the royals, as well as their other drawbacks. Only a small handful of non-royal laguz actually have long term potential.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

So here we have the typical general, only he's rocking paladin movement with less terrain penalty. Mordecai is Duessel undercover, who traded 3 speed to cap his def and get a permanent Vidofnir boost. What can hurt Mordecai has to be feared or instantly killed since it's most likely a fire sage. I don't see how people can still think he's bad and praise Keaton or Effie who gets deleted very fast. Keaton has middling def with good HP...for no HP emblem, but nothing compared with Laguz HP and raw stats, and infantry movement is straight up inferior to cavalry movement. Keaton feels like he's in half form the whole game stats-wise (well strength-wise not exactly but speed and def clearly).

Except once again, he needs to transform first, otherwise he's a helpless punching bag. That is NOT what I want my tanks to have going against them.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[mangasdeouf]

28 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

A lot of this is bullshit. First off, Edward is the exact type of unit the Dawn Brigade does NOT need. Their situation is already shitty enough as is, and a fragile melee unit isn't going to help me any, especially knowing that the first few chapters are merciless, as in "you lose if ANY ally dies" merciless. In addition, it's not like the investing into him will pay off, since thanks to BEXP being abusable as it is, anyone you're using is likely to cap their important stats anyway, meaning that Edward forces me to put in extra effort for no payoff. There's no way in hell I'd consider him better than Zihark, who renders him obsolete, much less Mia. RE: Jill, if she can't double with steel, use iron instead. It's as easy as falling out of bed. RE: Nolan, who are you going to use to carry the team in the early going? "I'm an evade based unit who faces 60+ hit rates from axes despite them having WTD on me" Edward? Sothe, who can't be everywhere at once and falls off as the game progresses? RE: Danved, he sucks. He focuses on the wrong stats, and is outshadowed by both Aran and Nephenee, who specialize in more important stats, because of it. His only good growths are in HP and Luck (sound familiar? Because that's damn near every laguz in the game).

On the contrary, I'd say the part 1 units AND Crimean Knights have more to offer me over the long term over a laguz unit who'll never be unable to get rid of their biggest flaws, and thus will never, EVER be able to contribute as much or more than a beorc unit who doesn't need to worry about suddenly being a helpless punching bag during enemy phase. And once again, recruiting Zihark into the mercenaries is shooting yourself in the foot in such a way the bullet ricochets and takes off your arm as well. Ergo, you accomplish nothing but unnecessarily crippling yourself.

More bullshit. What part of "laguz can't counter ranged attackers" (fun fact: Literally everything in the last three parts of endgame is a ranged attacker) do you fail to grasp? Because no amount of favoritism and TLC will ever undo this fatal flaw. And gauge is always a problem, considering that an untransformed laguz is about as resilient as a bug - and gets squished as easily as one! High HP doesn't mean much when you're doubled by everything and your defense ain't high enough to make up for it. I say again, having a laguz only weakens my team, because their untransformed state is a liability and they don't have enough going for them to make up for that.

And watch him get swarmed by spirits who don't care about his defense, because they attack his garbage resistance and he can't fight back, and ultimately get killed. Tigers suck harder than SSB64 Link's recovery in endgame. At least Haar can equip something to discourage ranged attacks, knowing that the AI loves picking on units that can't counterattack, AKA, every laguz that's not a dragon (the royals are powerful enough to ignore this. Non-royal laguz? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... No). And this is ignoring the insane amount of hoops I'd have to jump through to get them endgame ready because they're either easy kills or they have garbage experience gain (fun fact: a level 20+ laguz levels as fast as a third tier beorc. Too bad they don't have the stats of one!). Anyway, about the only part where Mordecai's useful is in 2-E. The  Greil Mercenaries aren't sorely lacking in durable units like the Dawn Brigade was.

I mean they are stuck with 1 range, which is a Very Bad Thing in a game where most of the action happens in enemy phase, and their stats aren't good enough to make up for this, barring the purposefully overpowered royals. Not to mention I can just give beorc silver weapons, braves, or even effective weapons if they're struggling to contribute. If a laguz struggles to deal damage? They're SOL. Have fun having them attack 70 times while also minding their gauge! Also, quit bringing up impossible scenarios.

With what? BEXP that I'm better off saving for units that cap stats? Stat boosters that I could just as easily give to anybody else? Because Mordecai won't cap defense until level 30 on average. Remember what I said about laguz experience gain? Have fun with that.

Bullshit. Once again, most of the action happens on enemy phase, and laguz being range locked compromises their enemy phase, because the moment archers, mages and other ranged units come along, all they can do is stand there and take the hit without being able to do anything in return as they lose gauge. That slows me down, especially in part 4, where most of the pre-endgame chapters are routs. FFS, that's the same reason archers and myrmidons tend to get railed on in most games. Beorc can counter and possibly kill those units, thus allowing me to move on. Also, Tanith isn't that good - her speed is rather unimpressive for a pegasus unit, who are supposed to be specialized in speed. And I say laguz are useless because they're obsoleted HARD by the royals, as well as their other drawbacks. Only a small handful of non-royal laguz actually have long term potential.

Except once again, he needs to transform first, otherwise he's a helpless punching bag. That is NOT what I want my tanks to have going against them.

Completely ignoring the fact Wildheart on Mordecai makes him a t2 high level unit and when he reaches 20 def he has most Beorcs' t3 def cap in half form, that dying in 8 hits rather than 4 is a boon rather than a bane, that with wildheart he doesn't need to load his gauge at all before transforming, that he doesn't need to save good weapon uses for when they can be blessed because his weapon naturally scales without durability, that his def with wildheart is the same as Muarim's in full form... And if you oppose royals to non royal Laguz, then oppose them to Beorcs too. No Beorc is worth training if you oppose them to Caineghis and even Giffca, Kurthnaga takes no damage from any of the dragons in Dheghinsea's chapter so you can grind him all you want to get one more royal for the next chapter, Nailah an Tibarn also beat any fast unit (better damage than TB and better bulk than anyone).

But seriously, instead of arguing over these, contribute to the topic by giving suggestions on how to make good shapeshifters, take what's good from the existing ones and fusin it together to make good units without them being gamebreaking.

Edited February 29, 2020 by mangasdeouf

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Completely ignoring the fact Wildheart on Mordecai makes him a t2 high level unit and when he reaches 20 def he has most Beorcs' t3 def cap in half form, that dying in 8 hits rather than 4 is a boon rather than a bane, that with wildheart he doesn't need to load his gauge at all before transforming, that he doesn't need to save good weapon uses for when they can be blessed because his weapon naturally scales without durability, that his def with wildheart is the same as Muarim's in full form... And if you oppose royals to non royal Laguz, then oppose them to Beorcs too. No Beorc is worth training if you oppose them to Caineghis and even Giffca, Kurthnaga takes no damage from any of the dragons in Dheghinsea's chapter so you can grind him all you want to get one more royal for the next chapter, Nailah an Tibarn also beat any fast unit (better damage than TB and better bulk than anyone).

But seriously, instead of arguing over these, contribute to the topic by giving suggestions on how to make good shapeshifters, take what's good from the existing ones and fusin it together to make good units without them being gamebreaking.

And you're completely ignoring the fact that he's still stuck with the lowered experience gain that being a transformed laguz comes with. And that his weapon does scale... at a pace so slow that "snail's pace" would be too kind in describing it. And the other downsides of being a laguz. Wildheart doesn't fix any of those. Also, nearly all beorc don't force me to jump through an insane amount of hoops to get them to a viable state with nothing of note to show for it. While the royals may eclipse beorc as well, they still don't have range, when I get three SS weapons with range in the endgame itself. And aside from Nailah, the royals are all only available for part 4 and endgame - what should I use in the meantime?

Anyway, as to the thread, I think shapeshifters are just fine as they are. Awakening and Fates didn't have them be too awesome to use like was the case in Sacred Stones and Binding Blade, and avoided making them nigh useless like Radiant Dawn did.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[vanguard333]

I suppose it would depend on the mechanics that are already present in the game, and which version of transformation would best suit the game. 

For example, if the next FE game builds off of the mechanics in Three Houses (which it probably will), I think it would be interesting to see playable units that use the monster mechanics. The upside would be the sheer raw power they would possess, while the downsides would be that they can't get through narrow paths without reverting to humanoid form, they can't use battalions, and they'd be stunned for one turn if their barriers are broken. It would be an interesting trade-off that would have a lot of gameplay potential. 

[mangasdeouf]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose it would depend on the mechanics that are already present in the game, and which version of transformation would best suit the game. 

For example, if the next FE game builds off of the mechanics in Three Houses (which it probably will), I think it would be interesting to see playable units that use the monster mechanics. The upside would be the sheer raw power they would possess, while the downsides would be that they can't get through narrow paths without reverting to humanoid form, they can't use battalions, and they'd be stunned for one turn if their barriers are broken. It would be an interesting trade-off that would have a lot of gameplay potential. 

Interesting, I don't know much about 3H since I don't have a Switch, there are certainly some good things in that game. But since I don't want to play Hogwarts while I like being able to customize my party, there's no way I'll buy a Switch to play that game. I prefer modding FE8 with or without skill systems with all the amazing patches available on FEBuilder (thanks to the team working on it, I'd like them to implement Laguz though, it's like in Awakening where you can play every Beorc unit, even a Manakete in Einherjar, but no Laguz at all...I just want to port shapeshifters on GBA games since I don't intend to buy a switch, which is sadly the only console that will get new games for a while, unless I find a promotion under 100 euros (about 90-95 $)). If you have ideas applicable to GBA FE then I'm all ears.

[vanguard333]

45 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

Interesting, I don't know much about 3H since I don't have a Switch, there are certainly some good things in that game. But since I don't want to play Hogwarts while I like being able to customize my party, there's no way I'll buy a Switch to play that game. I prefer modding FE8 with or without skill systems with all the amazing patches available on FEBuilder (thanks to the team working on it, I'd like them to implement Laguz though, it's like in Awakening where you can play every Beorc unit, even a Manakete in Einherjar, but no Laguz at all...I just want to port shapeshifters on GBA games since I don't intend to buy a switch, which is sadly the only console that will get new games for a while, unless I find a promotion under 100 euros (about 90-95 $)). If you have ideas applicable to GBA FE then I'm all ears.

Well, as I said, I think context is key: what sort of mechanics already in FE 8 would be most relevant? For example, the Laguz being split into three main tribes (beasts, birds, dragons) reflects the anima magic being similarly divided in three: fire, wind, and thunder, with each Laguz tribe being weak to one of the three. This gives clear weaknesses and trade-offs. 

I haven't actually played the GBA FE games; my first FE game was Path of Radiance.