VW as dlc would've make 3H better

[Ottservia]

59 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Claude's ThEmAtIc CoNfLiCt is Edelgard's war and Rhea's dogma, which are conflicts not unlike many presented in Fire Emblem (it's usually one or the other, sometimes both). He does have a clearly stated goal and obstacles, and an invested interest in how the war unfolds. You can complain about him not having nearly as strong as a personal connection and internal conflict as the other two, I guess, but that's not what you're complaining about so...

The problem with this is that there’s no depth towards either of those conflicts. The main villain of VW is Nemisis or at the very least is the final boss but how does he in anyway relate to Claude’s goals or character arc? The answer is that he doesn’t. The dialogue he has with Edelgard is interesting but the story doesn’t really do anything with it or at the very least it’s not really explored with any real depth. And we don’t fight Rhea so.... there’s really no thematically significant antagonist here well besides Edelgard but that’s not as explored as well as it should be. There’s nothing really here to truly solidify Claude’s growth as a character or give us a thematically satisfying conclusion. The story feels very confused on what exactly it wants to focus and as a result feels half-baked at best. Does it want to focus on Claude? Or does it want to focus on Byleth? It can’t seem to decide

[Crysta]

43 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The problem with this is that there’s no depth towards either of those conflicts.

There isn't in SS, either, so I wouldn't recommend it over VW. The significance of Edelgard being your student and turning against you is muted by removing her from most of the second half of the game and having her essentially function the same way she does in VW. AM, at the very least, has Dimitri to actively mull over WTF she is doing and actually engage her in any genuine capacity.

43 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The main villain of VW is Nemisis or at the very least is the final boss but how does he in anyway relate to Claude’s goals or character arc? The answer is that he doesn’t.

He is not the main villain. He's the last boss fight. Significant difference there.

43 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The dialogue he has with Edelgard is interesting but the story doesn’t really do anything with it or at the very least it’s not really explored with any real depth.

I hope you're not expecting it to? It's a conversation in the middle of a boss fight, and it's not like Edelgard and Claude have the same relationship as Edelgard and Dimitri or Edelgard and Byleth or even Edelgard and Rhea. All it does is establish why Edelgard isn't apt to work with Claude even though their goals ultimately align, and that's all it really needs to do.

43 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

And we don’t fight Rhea so.... there’s really no thematically significant antagonist here well besides Edelgard but that’s not as explored as well as it should be.

Edelgard is a significant thematic antagonist but it's not due to any personal vendetta on either end. He says her methods aren't something the world can get behind and his goal is far more contingent on that than hers is. She is definitely adamant about being an obstacle to his goal, he simply wasn't personally, grievously wrong by her like Dimitri was. And he's not apt to go nuts at defiance like Rhea is.

Rhea normally would be the most significant, but she shares a mutual enemy with him that's far more immediately concerning, it doesn't make sense for him to turn on her. It'd be cool if she didn't just roll over and let Byleth take over and he'd actually have to fight her, but that also is established as contrary to her character because she just lurvs Byleth so much, so... she ends up being a crappy antagonist on all routes except CF. No disagreement there.

You think he should have some personal investment versus the big bad in his route and I don't think that's an invalid preference tbh. That's a different complaint than "he has no thematic antagonists!", though. His theme isn't to resolve a character arc or put away personal grievances in the first place, and his goal doesn't require or revolve around doing so. Given Edelgard's significance as Byleth's student and Byleth's significance as Edelgard's teacher, though, you expect that kind of character arc... and it's really the only thing to recommend it over VW. She ends up being a much more meaningful "thematic antagonist" in AM.

It fails. You can be more offended at something failing to meet your expectations than at something not bothering to give you those expectations to fail at in the first place.

I don't find VW's story very confusing at all. It's focused on Claude's goal and his fight against the Empire, not on Byleth or Claude themselves. It's the most straightforward route writing wise by a mile imo. It feels like you're just disappointed that it isn't what you'd prefer it to be.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Crysta

[Kiran_]

20 hours ago, Ottservia said:

let me put to you another way. Let's say we have two characters and we make them fight one another. There's no unique strategies, no motivation for either of them to be fighting each other, nor do either of them have any personal stake in the fight. They are simply just a random obstacle that is in the way. Now you tell me how interesting that fight would be from a storytelling perspective. It is the same deal with verdant wind. There's definitely conflict in this story but why should I care? None of the characters seem to really care about what's going on. They just kinda want it to end which is fine if a bit basic. This war doesn't mean anything to them. It doesn't advance any of their arcs. It's just kind of an obstacle in their way. Yeah there's a mystery but that mystery is very poorly built up and the pay off is negligible at best. It's only really brought up a couple times in part 1 only to be unceremoniously info-dumped on you once you rescue Rhea and then you go fight mole people. Nothing is really gained out of solving that mystery nor is that mystery really properly addressed in any real capacity. No one is searching for any leads or anything. Also(and I could be very well be misremembering here) there's no real as to why this mystery needs to be solved in the first place. Obviously we, the audience, want to know because world building but why does Claude want to know so badly? I don't think that's ever really addressed. Like given what we know about his character there's really not much of a reason for him to care. He just kinda wants to fuck off to Almyra and end Racism or take over Foldlan and end Racism either way solving the mystery and fighting nemisis has literally nothing to do with that. It's just something he just happens to do. It's basic storytelling 101. You give a character a goal and make them take steps towards attaining that goal. The conflicts they encounter along the way should be thematically relevant to that goal. That's just how you write a story.

In terms of mystery stories specifically, the mystery needs to be intriguing, properly built up, a reason to solve, and have a satisfying payoff. To build a proper mystery you need lay clues, hints, even red herrings so that the road to solving that mystery is interesting and engaging. VW doesn't really do any of that if I recall and the answer to the questions the mystery raises aren't really all that satisfying in my opinion.

Conflicts do not have to be thematically relevant. Sure if you're a beginner writer, perhaps it's easier to tell a conflict that's thematically relevant, and so that's 'basic' storytelling. But there's so many ways conflicts present themselves in real life. They're not always thematic. Sometimes stories are weaker without thematic conflict, yes. But sometimes they're weaker with thematic conflict - see SS or even Fates. They both present thematic conflict for the detriment of the story. Thematic conflict sounds good on paper, but it doesn't always work and often times is painfully transparent, predictable and boring, because it's the most basic of storytelling. 

But I don't think Claude's story would have been better with thematic conflict. I think it could have been written better in general. But it's not because of a lack of 'thematic conflict' because there are themes within his story.

I agree, several of the characters in Golden Deer do NOT care that much, and I think that's a flaw of the writing. I found Golden Deer to have the weakest character cast, aside from a few strong outliers. But I wouldn't say the war doesn't mean anything to them. But the war does advance at least Claude's arc, by being an obstacle to what he wants to achieve. He realizes there's more to it than just ending racism. There's more corrupt systems and he wants to help everyone. Was his ending written the best by having him run off to Almyra? No. But that's less a fault of the route and them just not executing his character arc to the fullest.

It is addressed why Claude wants to know. It all begins with Miklan transforming, which makes him want to know the truth behind the crests, hero relics and Fodlan's true history. He's supposed to be leader of the alliance, which is IN Fodlan. I think any leader would want to know the truth behind the land in which they hope to rule. And then Claude is the only one of the 3 house leaders who cares about what happened to Byleth as a baby. If you recall he takes the diary and reads it, which is what makes him distrusting of Rhea. From his perspective, Byleth is the key to attaining what he wants, but also one his only true friends. He vows to help Byleth uncover the truth about their past and what Rhea did to them as a baby. Without the DLC, this IS a great mystery .

And Claude's route deals with those that slither, because he's the only one of the 3 house leaders that isn't blinded by hatred for the other and sees an outside perspective. It is his curiosity and insatiable need to understand the truth that leads him to Nemesis and that entire operation. Which is actually a rather fitting theme, that the one house leader without any true stakes in the conflict is the one to both uncover the threat and neutralize it behind the scenes, which is exactly how Claude likes to work.

I would agree they don't work up the mystery in the best way, but there is still a mystery and it still is solved. There are clues, hints (idk about the red herrings), and so yes you can say it doesn't have a satisfying payoff, but you can't say it wasn't attempted or that it didn't have ideas or try, which was your original argument. Did you really talk to Claude during your play through? Because he does give answers to all of this through just speaking to him at the monastery to just minor cut scenes. It all works to build a bigger picture. 

My issue with Claude's character is that they tried to make him too many things, and have too many different goals that are conflicting in nature and couldn't' seem to decide which route to stick on him. But to say the entire route lacked ideas/concept would be a heavy reach. To say they didn't properly execute the concept would be very correct. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Kiran_

[Namarid]

I definitely prefer VW to SS. Claude makes the story more interesting than a route where Byleth is on his own, even though I like Flayn and Seteth they can't carry like Claude does. 

In addition, having the Golden Deer, a group of misfits with no real history with each other, apart from Ignatz and Raphael, slowly turn into this cohesive group of friends was heartwarming. I think the BE having two routes actually hurts them since it shows the only motivation they have for picking a side is because of Byleth.

The lore 'dump' makes sense since Claude is the only person actively seeking out the truth amongst the whole cast. The truth about Byleth in SS very easily could have said in VW.

[leesangstar10]

On 5/5/2020 at 12:22 AM, Crysta said:

How is it confusing that she betrays you when she isn't your student?

Byleth killing Edelgard isn't the confusing part, either, it's why she's suddenly calling him teacher and being unusually deferential to him. And honestly it took me reflecting on it afterward to notice it doesn't really fit. It's certainly not enough to recommend it over the other routes. If you want to explore a complicated relationship with Edelgard rife with drama AM does it much, much better and has more than just two pretty cutscenes covering it before you have to murder her. Hell, I'd argue you get to know her much better there too and she isn't even your student.

When I mean confused I was talking about whether if I should be sad or not. This cut scene was obviously meant to be a sad moment where you have to kill your student, but because I didn't feel anything cause I didn't know her at all. VW just ruins this scene for people like me who played it first and plans on playing SS some time after. 

On 5/5/2020 at 12:22 AM, Crysta said:

The "emotional impact" of Byleth versus Edelgard in SS may work better if you play it first, maybe. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was still disappointing, because it certainly was for me (but I played it last, so...).

Yes this kind of what I was talking about when looking at the routes individually.

Off topic, but Imo I think the developers intended that SS to be played first with the constant push of Edelgard for ads(CF would confusing as a first route and it is the "secret route". I doubt they would recommend players to play a "secret route" first) and VW last to fill in the missing lore ppl might be wondering.

22 hours ago, Crysta said:

I hope you're not expecting it to? It's a conversation in the middle of a boss fight, and it's not like Edelgard and Claude have the same relationship as Edelgard and Dimitri or Edelgard and Byleth or even Edelgard and Rhea. All it does is establish why Edelgard isn't apt to work with Claude even though their goals ultimately align, and that's all it really needs to do.

Thats the problem. The lack of a connection with the antagonist in VW makes it worse. You barely know anything about Edelgard in VW and fighting her just makes it feel like you are just fighting a generic FE villain(i'd argue worse due to the lack of cut scene). I think this is the point @Ottservia was trying to get across. 

[Ottservia]

14 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Thats the problem. The lack of a connection with the antagonist in VW makes it worse. You barely know anything about Edelgard in VW and fighting her just makes it feel like you are just fighting a generic FE villain(i'd argue worse due to the lack of cut scene). I think this is the point @Ottservia was trying to get across. 

EXACTLY!!! There’s no reason for me to care because there’s no development towards this relationship which makes the whole conflict feel meaningless. I don’t care what happens to Edelgard here. I have no personal investment in her character at this point so killing her just kinda feels empty. She’s just kind of an obstacle that’s in the way. There’s no meaningful interactions with her, no underlying thematic through line, nothing!!! There’s nothing to keep me invested. The same is true of the thales and Nemisis. They just kinda come out of no where without any real build up. I hardly know anything about these guys so why should I care that I kill them with the power of friendship. Nothing about them is thematically relevant to anything in this story so then what am I supposed to be taking away from this? What the hell was the point of anything that happened in this story?!

[Crysta]

18 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Thats the problem. The lack of a connection with the antagonist in VW makes it worse. You barely know anything about Edelgard in VW and fighting her just makes it feel like you are just fighting a generic FE villain(i'd argue worse due to the lack of cut scene). I think this is the point @Ottservia was trying to get across. 

In spite all of it's other shortcomings? I don't think so.

My question then is how does someone consider it the more fun route if it "has no ideas" and presumably that and compelling character connection is important.

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

In spite all of it's other shortcomings? I don't think so.

My question then is how does someone consider it the more fun route if it "has no ideas" and presumably that and compelling character connection is important.

Because Claude is a fun character plain and simple. The same goes for the rest of the golden deer students. They’re all charming in their own ways and to see them interact through this story is certainly entertaining even though it doesn’t really amount to much in the end. You can sell me on charm alone. Just objectively speaking, I don’t think the writing itself is all that good

Edited May 7, 2020 by Ottservia

[Crysta]

11 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Because Claude is a fun character plain and simple. The same goes for the rest of the golden deer students. They’re all charming in their own ways and to see them interact through this story is certainly entertaining even though it doesn’t really amount to much in the end

So... VW is more fun to play due to characters but SS is better for theme adherence, which is more important? We're not going to rag on the latter for it's very noticeable shortcomings in that department?

WTF is the point of a good story theme if it's ultimately really boring to actually explore?

Edited May 7, 2020 by Crysta

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

So... VW is more fun to play due to characters but SS is better for theme adherence, which is more important? We're not going to rag on the latter for it's very noticeable shortcomings in that department?

WTF is the point of a good story theme if it's ultimately really boring to actually explore?

Y’see there’s this thing called personal preference that’s just how it is. I prefer golden deer because it’s characters are more fun to engage with. Though objectively speaking SS is better than VW because it has an actual thematic through line to it. We can talk all day about how well it was executed but at least it’s something which is more than what can said about VW

[Crysta]

9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Y’see there’s this thing called personal preference that’s just how it is. I prefer golden deer because it’s characters are more fun to engage with. Though objectively speaking SS is better than VW because it has an actual thematic through line to it. We can talk all day about how well it was executed but at least it’s something which is more than what can said about VW

"It's better because I value this aspect of storytelling more" isn't really objective, though. Undervaluing characters when they're the vehicle to tell a story isn't great.

If you got rid of VW and left in the lore route people like less, you'll simply then get threads saying they should have sacrificed SS and just used the assets to integrate more of the lore into the other two far more engaging routes, particularly if you use the labor to just give CF a third act instead of improving SS itself. And with Byleth at the core of SS... I'm not sure you can make it compelling without completely redoing it.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Crysta

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

"It's better because I value this aspect of storytelling more" isn't really objective, though. Undervaluing characters when they're the vehicle to tell a story isn't great.

If you got rid of VW and left in the lore route people like less, you'll simply then get threads saying they should have sacrificed SS and just used the assets to integrate more of the lore into the other two far more engaging routes, particularly if you use the labor to just give CF a third act instead of improving SS itself. And with Byleth at the core of SS... I'm not sure you can make it compelling without completely redoing it.

I never said to get rid of VW completely just rework it so that the events of the story are actually thematically relevant to Claude’s goals as a character because as of right now it’s just an empty story with nothing really happening. There’s no emotional investment in VW. All I ask is that you add that to make the story more thematically satisfying. Because the themes and ideas behind a story are what make the story what it is without that the story feels empty, hollow, and all around meaningless. Characters can only really take you so far after all. Go watch something like asterisk war to see what I mean or better yet fairy tail. Everything in a story is in service to its themes and ideas that’s just how stories work. A story that doesn’t do that is boring. You remove the golden deers from VW and well you have nothing. At least in SS you have some kind of meaningful developed conflict between Edelgard and Byleth. The themes and ideas of a story are what drive it. The characters are only there to serve that end and drive home those ideas. The same goes for the conflict in the story. VW does none of that and there in lies the problem 

[Crysta]

There is no meaningful developed conflict between Edelgard and Byleth. That was one of my points: the big selling point of SS isn't done well at all. You bond with her for a significant portion of the game, get a nice cutscene, then you fight her like another boss fight like in VW. Your big bad boss fight is Rhea who goes insane because ?????

It's worse because you expect to have meaningful development between them.

That and paired with having Byleth be the "lord" and you got a route that is thematically consistent but not engaging. It feels a lot more hollow than VW, even if it's not as thematically engaging. Players interact with characters first and themes second.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Crysta

[eclipse]

CF: Obvious.
AM: CF's mirror.
SS: "This is what happens when I choose the fourth option."

Which leaves VW.  IMO it tried to introduce the bigger world outside of the comfy zone we're accustomed to.  But due to the nature of the conflict, it was dragged back into Fodlan.  I think if it had a completely different set of maps (say, try to hold off Almyra while dealing with Edelgard), it would've went over better.  But alas.

[UNLEASH IT]

SS might make more sense, but never again am I playing a route where a silent protagonist hogs the spotlight

Edited May 7, 2020 by UNLEASH IT

[Crysta]

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Which leaves VW.  IMO it tried to introduce the bigger world outside of the comfy zone we're accustomed to.  But due to the nature of the conflict, it was dragged back into Fodlan.  I think if it had a completely different set of maps (say, try to hold off Almyra while dealing with Edelgard), it would've went over better.  But alas.

It just should have had part of it's route focused on dealing with Alliance civil war shenanigans, tbh. It's seeded right in there already; Claude has a clear mini-enemy in Gloucester, and apparently assassins hanging out in the Abyss with the DLC lol.

 

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

It just should have had part of it's route focused on dealing with Alliance civil war shenanigans, tbh. It's seeded right in there already; Claude has a clear mini-enemy in Gloucester, and apparently assassins hanging out in the Abyss with the DLC lol.

 

That would've been cool, too, as perhaps the first part of it.  Since Claude's heritage is unique among the three, it feels like a shame that it wasn't explored more.

[Crysta]

7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

That would've been cool, too, as perhaps the first part of it.  Since Claude's heritage is unique among the three, it feels like a shame that it wasn't explored more.

Since it's a Fodlan-centric conflict at the core, this is probably more difficult to implement convincingly than it sounds. Almyra wouldn't attack the Alliance with Claude at it's helm, I don't think. That's probably why he's so confident they're not a problem when the other characters (RE: Lorenz) bring the Almyrans up, when there's no obvious explanation for it, other than he's Almyran himself.

But Claude references numerous assassination attempts in his support, which leads me to believe that Almyra politics are far more Game of Throne-sy than in Fodlan and succession doesn't work the same way, and having Nader take a hit in a vein similar to Rodrigue's sacrifice can open that up more to exposition at the very least.

Wouldn't be surprised if the writers read my ideas and went 'lol this sounds like fanfiction get out', though.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Crysta

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Since it's a Fodlan-centric conflict at the core, this is probably more difficult to implement convincingly than it sounds. Almyra wouldn't attack the Alliance with Claude at it's helm, I don't think. That's probably why he's so confident they're not a problem when the other characters (RE: Lorenz) bring the Almyrans up, when there's no obvious explanation for it, other than he's Almyran himself.

But Claude references numerous assassination attempts in his support, which leads me to believe that Almyra politics are far more Game of Throne-sy than in Fodlan and succession doesn't work the same way, and having Nader take a hit in a vein similar to Rodrigue's sacrifice can open that up more to exposition at the very least.

Wouldn't be surprised if the writers read my ideas and went 'lol this sounds like fanfiction get out', though.

That really depends on how the rest of Almyra's royalty sees him.  An assassination attempt in the middle of the war with the Empire sounds like it would've worked, and would've made a nice segue into the larger world.

[Landmaster]

Ehhh, Imma go with nah. VW could have been better for sure, but if we have to get rid of one of the two, I'd easily axe SS over VW. Giving Seteth the Claude role wasn't something that was necessary and going through the VW story with the BE students just seems like they're overstaying it a bit.

Problem is, we should be allowed to say no to Edelgard. So we do need SS in that sense. What VW really needed was to have more focus on the Alliance similar to what the Kingdom and Empire get in their routes. We never get to see much of the Alliance and there's plenty of development we could have gotten there. Claude needed a bigger push and presence in his own route. SS should have then just very simply had more diversity than just a copy-paste of VW with different characters. I still don't understand why they felt the need not to make SS have its own unique story. 

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Landmaster said:

Ehhh, Imma go with nah. VW could have been better for sure, but if we have to get rid of one of the two, I'd easily axe SS over VW. Giving Seteth the Claude role wasn't something that was necessary and going through the VW story with the BE students just seems like they're overstaying it a bit.

Problem is, we should be allowed to say no to Edelgard. So we do need SS in that sense. What VW really needed was to have more focus on the Alliance similar to what the Kingdom and Empire get in their routes. We never get to see much of the Alliance and there's plenty of development we could have gotten there. Claude needed a bigger push and presence in his own route. SS should have then just very simply had more diversity than just a copy-paste of VW with different characters. I still don't understand why they felt the need not to make SS have its own unique story. 

Aren't you already saying no to Edelgard by picking the other routes? People who don't care for her are already picking the other routes anyways.  And people who are picking BE are probably doing it for her. The lords are the big selling points on the routes since  only two other students can't really join other routes (dedue and Hubert with Hilda not being recruitable specfically in CF). Same logic applies for Dimitri and Cluade's routes too btw.

Edited May 7, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[Landmaster]

6 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Aren't you already saying no to Edelgard by picking the other routes? People who don't care for her are already picking the other routes anyways.  And people who are picking BE are probably doing it for her. The lords are the big selling points on the routes since  only two other students can't really join other routes (dedue and Hubert with Hilda not being recruitable specfically in CF). Same logic applies for Dimitri and Cluade's routes too btw.

I'm talking about in the context of the story. What I mean is, in her own route, you're basically forced to side with her against the church if SS doesn't exist. And I think we should be allowed to say no to that. Obviously if you're talking about the player, yes, just pick Dimitri or Claude to "say no" to Edelgard. But I mean in the story.

[UNLEASH IT]

8 hours ago, Landmaster said:

Ehhh, Imma go with nah. VW could have been better for sure, but if we have to get rid of one of the two, I'd easily axe SS over VW. Giving Seteth the Claude role wasn't something that was necessary and going through the VW story with the BE students just seems like they're overstaying it a bit.

Problem is, we should be allowed to say no to Edelgard. So we do need SS in that sense. What VW really needed was to have more focus on the Alliance similar to what the Kingdom and Empire get in their routes. We never get to see much of the Alliance and there's plenty of development we could have gotten there. Claude needed a bigger push and presence in his own route. SS should have then just very simply had more diversity than just a copy-paste of VW with different characters. I still don't understand why they felt the need not to make SS have its own unique story. 

SS is the unique story, VW copies it.

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Landmaster said:

I'm talking about in the context of the story. What I mean is, in her own route, you're basically forced to side with her against the church if SS doesn't exist. And I think we should be allowed to say no to that. Obviously if you're talking about the player, yes, just pick Dimitri or Claude to "say no" to Edelgard. But I mean in the story.

I still say nah that is not really needed.  Byleth's main attachment is not the church but the students. Keep in mind that Byleth was raised by Jeralt with no ties to any religion at all. Alot of optional dialouge boxes that pop up through out the game on all routes show a priority towards the students above all else. Jeralt even comments on how much Byleth changes since coming to the monastery and it is all because of being a teacher as indicated through Byleth's response. Also keep in mind that the Sothis part of Byleth shows a lot of mistrust towards Rhea during part 1 and Sothis is probably the closest we get to Byleth's own personal thoughts.  This is also reinforced by Byleth's father pretty much being like "Watch out for Rhea I don't know what she has planning" through out there joint time at the monastery.  Byleth as is has alot more reason to follow there charges and help them over sticking with the church.

 

This doesn't just apply to Edelgard btw but if Cluade or Dimtri also were more anti-church I still find it more likely that Byleth sides with what ever path they choose over the church who Byleth has less ties too.  Bear in mind that as a teacher Byleth spends more time with the students than the other faculty especially since Rhea also has a busy schedule as Archbishop. So I find it more likely Byleth chooses the stronger bond with the house of their choice over the church with what we have to go off. Again this isn't just talking about Edlgard but Claude and Dimitri as well in their routes it just don't come up in those routes as much.

Edited May 7, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[vanguard333]

13 hours ago, Ottservia said:

EXACTLY!!! There’s no reason for me to care because there’s no development towards this relationship which makes the whole conflict feel meaningless. I don’t care what happens to Edelgard here. I have no personal investment in her character at this point so killing her just kinda feels empty. She’s just kind of an obstacle that’s in the way. There’s no meaningful interactions with her, no underlying thematic through line, nothing!!! There’s nothing to keep me invested. The same is true of the thales and Nemisis. They just kinda come out of no where without any real build up. I hardly know anything about these guys so why should I care that I kill them with the power of friendship. Nothing about them is thematically relevant to anything in this story so then what am I supposed to be taking away from this? What the hell was the point of anything that happened in this story?!

I will say that there is some reason to care about Thales and TWSITD in Verdant Wind: Lysithea. She's one of your students after all, and they experimented on her.

 

12 hours ago, eclipse said:

Which leaves VW.  IMO it tried to introduce the bigger world outside of the comfy zone we're accustomed to.  But due to the nature of the conflict, it was dragged back into Fodlan.  I think if it had a completely different set of maps (say, try to hold off Almyra while dealing with Edelgard), it would've went over better.  But alas.

I'm not sure about driving off Almyra, but I think it would be interesting if Claude had utilized his Almyran heritage a lot more post-timeskip and advanced his plans for opening up Fodlan. Perhaps he brings in Almyran troops even earlier on to keep both the Empire and the "Kingdom (i.e. the Dukedom)" out of the Alliance. 

Then, Gronder Field would have more reason to be a three-way fight, as Dimitri would oppose the idea of bringing Almyran forces into Fodlan (as their warrior-culture clashes with his ideals). This could be taken even further if, in non-Verdant Wind routes, Claude, due to not having the professor, overplayed this hand: creating alliances with Sreng and Dagda to assist in "opening up" Fodlan, and this gets seen by many as Claude allying with hostile nations and letting them "invade" Fodlan.