Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity announced (NSW, Releases 11.20.2020)

[Florete]

21 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Subjective, I think it's better in HW. Not the best argument, really.

Maybe it's subjective, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to actually support that the HW version is better in any way.

I suppose as far as raw content that exists within the game, yeah, HW has more unique weapons, but I'll 100% take FEW's mechanically superior system any day.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Florete

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

Maybe it's subjective, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to actually support that the HW version is better in any way.

I suppose as far as raw content that exists within the game, yeah, HW has more weapons, but I'll 100% take FEW's mechanically superior system any day.

Well, mechanics comes down to opinion, naturally so I wont judge those. But considering the difference in system limitations, I'd say they did pretty damn well with HW.  

How many mechanical differences do they have, anyways?

[Fabulously Olivier]

18 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Odds are if you have to rely on something broken to be fun, its probably not that fun in the first place. 

I've never experienced that issue before. If anything the characters attacks feel quicker in HW. (Link, Young Link, for starters.) Obviously YL is a total busted monster though. 

That applies to unintended mechanics like wavedashing and animation canceling, not intended mechanics.

[Lightcosmo]

6 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

That applies to unintended mechanics like wavedashing and animation canceling, not intended mechanics.

Not really the same thing, since back then they couldn't patch things to fix them. And even then, it isnt broken for 100% of the cast, as some characters have shit wavedashes.

Cant say for melee, but PM plans around this pretty well. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by lightcosmo

[Florete]

Just now, lightcosmo said:

Well, mechanics comes down to opinion, naturally so I wont judge those. But considering the difference in system limitations, I'd say they did pretty damn well with HW.  

How many mechanical differences do they have, anyways?

Mechanics is, like, the least opinionated thing, though.

HW's weapon system really doesn't have anything FEW's doesn't.

HW on Wii U limited your weapon capacity to 10 (raised to 20 in later releases) each vs 100 each in FEW. Pretty massive difference. Due to the way using weapons in FEW works, you can use a weapon with one character one map and then another character on another map. This also means you can use a strong character to unlock a weapon attribute, then put that attribute on a different weapon for a different, weaker character. And since FEW only has 6 weapon types as opposed to like 25 it makes availability of weapon attributes and strong weapons for any individual character that much less grindy and RNG-dependent, on top of the fact that FEW has skills replacing some weapon attributes already so you don't have to worry about losing Astra (Hasty Attacks in HW) and such when switching weapons.

Got Heart Power/Legendary/etc. on a 125 power weapon in HW when you have 500+ available for that character? Too bad, grind that out no matter how low level they are. Have a strong weapon with Heart Power, Legendary, Hasty Attacks, etc. but found a stronger weapon? Too bad, you only get to transfer one.

Somewhat related, HW also keeps locked attributes hidden even after appraisal, which FEW does not. FEW also lets you lock weapons so you don't accidentally sell or fuse them. FEW also has sorting options (the only way to sort in HW is indirectly via the sell menu).

I really can't think of a single way in which HW's weapon system is mechanically better.

Thinking about it, I'm actually not sure if HW has more unique weapons at all since FEW has various weapons for unlocking specific attributes on weapon types, though I don't want to go around and count. In the end every character in both games wants to have a specific "ultimate" weapon that they'll rely on 95% of the time, but getting to this point is objectively better in FEW because everyone has a personal weapon that can reach maximum power level instead of relying on RNG for one drop that might never come.

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

Mechanics is, like, the least opinionated thing, though.

HW's weapon system really doesn't have anything FEW's doesn't.

HW on Wii U limited your weapon capacity to 10 (raised to 20 in later releases) each vs 100 each in FEW. Pretty massive difference. Due to the way using weapons in FEW works, you can use a weapon with one character one map and then another character on another map. This also means you can use a strong character to unlock a weapon attribute, then put that attribute on a different weapon for a different, weaker character. And since FEW only has 6 weapon types as opposed to like 25 it makes availability of weapon attributes and strong weapons for any individual character that much less grindy and RNG-dependent, on top of the fact that FEW has skills replacing some weapon attributes already so you don't have to worry about losing Astra (Hasty Attacks in HW) and such when switching weapons.

Got Heart Power/Legendary/etc. on a 125 power weapon in HW when you have 500+ available for that character? Too bad, grind that out no matter how low level they are. Have a strong weapon with Heart Power, Legendary, Hasty Attacks, etc. but found a stronger weapon? Too bad, you only get to transfer one.

Somewhat related, HW also keeps locked attributes hidden even after appraisal, which FEW does not. FEW also lets you lock weapons so you don't accidentally sell or fuse them. FEW also has sorting options (the only way to sort in HW is indirectly via the sell menu).

I really can't think of a single way in which HW's weapon system is mechanically better.

Thinking about it, I'm actually not sure if HW has more unique weapons at all since FEW has various weapons for unlocking specific attributes on weapon types, though I don't want to go around and count. In the end every character in both games wants to have a specific "ultimate" weapon that they'll rely on 95% of the time, but getting to this point is objectively better in FEW because everyone has a personal weapon that can reach maximum power level instead of relying on RNG for one drop that might never come.

Judging mechanics is difficult, since I think both have good/bad. So i cant really say one is strictly better than the other.

The weapon drops thing is terrible, I can agree to that. Luck based weapon gets were dumb. 

Legends/DE made this slightly easier, but it's still painful.

It's too bad really.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

When FEW came out I do remember coming to the conclusion that it had better moment to moment gameplay. Don't ask me what in particular was improved because I truly don't remember. I never went back to that game. The only thing I remember really liking was the ability to order my characters around. But I only had the Wii U version of HW (with no DLC) to compare to. The Switch version's additions, like the item card shop and the character swapping from FEW eased a lot of my biggest frustrations with that game.

In my book, both of these games are no better nor worse than 7 out of 10s. But Hyrule Warriors is the one I come back to because it just has so much love for the source material. It feels so willing to prove to me how great Zelda is and always was. While FEW only argued in favor of two games. The side content is just bursting at the seams with references to the more obscure Zelda games. Not every single zelda game got a piece of the pie, but the ones that did felt like they got equal billing. They could have put in nine characters from Ocarina of Time (the "best" zelda, according to most people in 2015), but they didn't, not even when given the opportunity to make DLC. I never would have wanted to play as Yuga in HW (despite loving ALBW), but now that I unlocked him he's weird and awesome. And I like when the game is being weird and awesome. Like putting the Troupe Leader mask on Zant. Heck yeah I will play as him now. There's nobody weird and awesome in FEW.

[Lightcosmo]

I still want to see Seasons/Ages repeesentation!

[Florete]

If there's one place HW absolutely wins over FEW, it's personality.

[Fabulously Olivier]

16 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Not really the same thing, since back then they couldn't patch things to fix them. And even then, it isnt broken for 100% of the cast, as some characters have shit wavedashes.

Cant say for melee, but PM plans around this pretty well. 

Animation canceling is a direct comparison though. Astra is an intended mechanic (even a core mechanic) that the player is expected to have and which takes no mindful attention on the player's part. It's just part of game balance. Animation canceling is usually an unintended way of increasing attack speed, and it allows the best players to do literally multiple times the damage of the average player. 

 

If a moveset is built with Astra factored in, it's still being designed intentionally and with quality in mind. If a moveset is bad, but an animation canceling exploit makes it good, said moveset is still poorly designed.

[Lightcosmo]

2 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Animation canceling is a direct comparison though. Astra is an intended mechanic (even a core mechanic) that the player is expected to have and which takes no mindful attention on the player's part. It's just part of game balance. Animation canceling is usually an unintended way of increasing attack speed, and it allows the best players to do literally multiple times the damage of the average player. 

 

If a moveset is built with Astra factored in, it's still being designed intentionally and with quality in mind. If a moveset is bad, but an animation canceling exploit makes it good, said moveset is still poorly designed.

That's stretching it, but I guess so. But only one character has astra at base.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

16 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I still want to see Seasons/Ages repeesentation!

Yeah. Twinrova could have been a character. Or just pick between Onox and Veran. It feels weird that the Oracles games didn't get their own map at least. The Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks map is two worlds smushed together. You explore both at once and I'm thinking "do this, but with Oracles".

And imagine a Four Swords Link running around in selectable formations. And their moveset is just four dorks stumbling over each other and fighting over force gems as they spam items indiscriminately.

What's left...Minish Cap? Vaati. Done. Can't think of any other zelda games that didn't make the cut. Link to the Past maybe, but Link between worlds is the sequel to that set in the same world. Ganon's trident can also be considered a point of reference

Edited October 9, 2020 by Glennstavos

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

That's stretching it, but I guess so. But only one character has astra at base.

And? You don't even need to play said character to unlock it. You just need to have him on your team, as a support unit. The same can be said of other essential skills like Paragon, Luna, Lethality, and Luck +20. And the game gives you 3 bond charms to speed up the acquisition.

 

It can actually be of benefit to the player, because the carriers of essential skills will level up beyond most party members effortlessly, which is great for Camp leveling.

[Lightcosmo]

46 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

And? You don't even need to play said character to unlock it. You just need to have him on your team, as a support unit. The same can be said of other essential skills like Paragon, Luna, Lethality, and Luck +20. And the game gives you 3 bond charms to speed up the acquisition.

 

It can actually be of benefit to the player, because the carriers of essential skills will level up beyond most party members effortlessly, which is great for Camp leveling.

Well that's something intended, transferable skills. Which is fine, you could argue that said mechanic can be used to argue in defence of X characters balance. 

Things like wavedashing....  not so much. Who knows how the characters would be without it? 

The devs didn't plan on abusable friction. Yes the mechanics exist and you cant ignore them, but X character being broken was just happenstance. 

Edit:

About Seasons/Ages: as I think they are 10/10 worthy games, I for sure think they should have had something. Sadly, they are linked to Capcom (not sure if that matters)?

Edited October 9, 2020 by lightcosmo

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

I still want to see Seasons/Ages repeesentation!

 

49 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Yeah. Twinrova could have been a character. Or just pick between Onox and Veran. It feels weird that the Oracles games didn't get their own map at least. The Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks map is two worlds smushed together. You explore both at once and I'm thinking "do this, but with Oracles".

And imagine a Four Swords Link running around in selectable formations. And their moveset is just four dorks stumbling over each other and fighting over force gems as they spam items indiscriminately.

What's left...Minish Cap? Vaati. Done. Can't think of any other zelda games that didn't make the cut. Link to the Past maybe, but Link between worlds is the sequel to that set in the same world. Ganon's trident can also be considered a point of reference

Bear in mind that any games with Capcom involved are basically not even on the table for Hyrule Warriors and never were. Koei Tecmo and Capcom have a history of back and forth lawsuits and animosity. This also means that a Koei Tecmo character (like Ryu Hyabusa or Atelier's Ryza) in Smash is unlikely (though perhaps not impossible).

 

This includes Link to the Past, Minish Cap, Oracle of Ages, and Oracle of Seasons.

[Lightcosmo]

2 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

 

Bear in mind that any games with Capcom involved are basically not even on the table for Hyrule Warriors and never were. Koei Tecmo and Capcom have a history of back and forth lawsuits and animosity. This also means that a Koei Tecmo character (like Ryu Hyabusa or Atelier's Ryza) in Smash is unlikely (though perhaps not impossible).

 

This includes Link to the Past, Minish Cap, Oracle of Ages, and Oracle of Seasons.

Yep, I just edited that in. And that's dissapointing. But they have stuff together in Smash?

Edited October 9, 2020 by lightcosmo

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Bear in mind that any games with Capcom involved are basically not even on the table for Hyrule Warriors and never were. Koei Tecmo and Capcom have a history of back and forth lawsuits and animosity.

This includes Link to the Past, Minish Cap, Oracle of Ages, and Oracle of Seasons.

Capcom didn't make Link to the Past, but I guess you're right on the other three. Bummer. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, Glennstavos said:

Capcom didn't make Link to the Past, but I guess you're right on the other three. Bummer. 

Weird, it comes up in a search for "Capcom Zelda games," as does Four Swords and the aforementioned.

[Lightcosmo]

I always wanted to see the potential the Rod of Seasons and Harp of Ages could have in an HW setting.

Edited October 9, 2020 by lightcosmo

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Yep, I just edited that in. And that's dissapointing. But they have stuff together in Smash?

I don't think Koei has anything notable in Smash? It has Fatal Frame spirits, but that's about it.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

4 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Weird, it comes up in a search for "Capcom Zelda games," as does Four Swords and the aforementioned.

I think it's because the GBA Four Swords game was bundled with a GBA port of Link to the Past with an updated engine. No idea if Capcom was involved in that port, but even if they were, they had no hand in creating the original game.

A lot of people tend to misattribute Link's Awakening as a capcom game too. They assume that "gameboy zelda" means "capcom".

Edited October 9, 2020 by Glennstavos

[Lightcosmo]

6 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I don't think Koei has anything notable in Smash? It has Fatal Frame spirits, but that's about it.

Crap. Oh well, I can still dream then!

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, lightcosmo said:

Crap. Oh well, I can still dream then!

I mean, ultimately, money talks. If Nintendo and Koei reach a profitable deal on Ryu or Ryza or Guan Yu (jk about Guan Yu), Nintendo and Koei clearly DO like eachother. Appearing alongside Capcom in another company's game doesn't necessarily mean having to communicate with them (which they would have to do for Capcom Zelda content in HW).

[Lightcosmo]

Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

I mean, ultimately, money talks. If Nintendo and Koei reach a profitable deal on Ryu or Ryza or Guan Yu (jk about Guan Yu), Nintendo and Koei clearly DO like eachother. Appearing alongside Capcom in another company's game doesn't necessarily mean having to communicate with them (which they would have to do for Capcom Zelda content in HW).

I dont know much about all that, but I'll take your word for it. 

If anything, it's a missed opportunity for them, oh well. Their loss, really.

[Etrurian emperor]

So it seems that master Kohga is conformed to be in the game. In the latest Treehouse stream there's a blink and you miss it moment with the victory condition being described as ''defeat master Kohga''