Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity announced (NSW, Releases 11.20.2020)

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

I've gone back to the grind in Hyrule Warriors in the past few weeks and I have much to potentially say on this. The KO count is my least favorite thing because the player is forced to stop and grind kills, and sometimes the benchmark is so high there aren't 1600 enemies in the map to kill in the first place. You need to wait as bases periodically spawn more for you, but also be careful not to take that base by killing the keep boss. But above all I wish the game just told you the numbers you need for an A rank on each map by pausing. So much information is deliberately kept from the player to force them into using a guide in order to avoid having to replay that map for something they missed. Having a guide up for everything is tedious and defeats the idealized purpose of "zelda gameplay" where the player is searching for treasure.

Golden Skulltulas incidentally got better in the Hyrule warriors re-releases, because you often have other characters to command. And their only real purpose is to serve as "warp points" for objectives like that whenever you don't want to run across the map one more time. The ocarina warping is also a big help in this regard, but very few of the missions have those warp points to use.

I agree with all of those criticisms. Honestly, Hyrule Warriors has a lot of little unintuitive aggravations that tend to go overlooked by those praising it as "teh best Warriors game evar."

 

With FE Warriors, I know what my goals are, what my side objectives are, and how to do them with minimal breaking of gameplay flow. Sometimes those KO counts can be unreasonably high for the map, but it's rare.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Lightcosmo]

The only issue FEW has is the clones. HW created custom movesets for all weapons/characters. Hopefully they stick to that.

[Lord_Brand]

Yeah, FEW sadly just didn't have as much material to draw from as HW did. Even if they had included alternate classes and different weapon types to add variety, a lot of Warriors would just end up being headswaps. I got bored of FEW a lot more easily than HW, which kept my interest thanks to the sheer variety in movesets and Adventure board content. I have a feeling AoC will likewise hold my interest a lot longer than FEW did.

[Lightcosmo]

7 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Yeah, FEW sadly just didn't have as much material to draw from as HW did. Even if they had included alternate classes and different weapon types to add variety, a lot of Warriors would just end up being headswaps. I got bored of FEW a lot more easily than HW, which kept my interest thanks to the sheer variety in movesets and Adventure board content. I have a feeling AoC will likewise hold my interest a lot longer than FEW did.

Dont get me wrong, FEW is still amazing, but as far as creativity goes, HW takes it. And that's also considering that multiple character use multiple weapons that ways feel different.

Sure the great fairy might not be the best weapon, but that's not what matters. 

That's how I see it, at least.

[Fabulously Olivier]

11 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

The only issue FEW has is the clones. HW created custom movesets for all weapons/characters. Hopefully they stick to that.

I disagree with that assertion completely. Clones are fine if they are used to benefit the game - ie, by offering a big roster (which FEW does not).

 

The reason why clones suck is:

1) They were used to cut corners in an average-sized roster rather than as a means of pleasing the fans to the maximum extent possible.

2) Statistical differences don't provide for unique roles when one singular stat (Luck) single-handedly determines which version of a unit has the highest combat effectiveness.

3) Most clones have no means of standing out from their superior combat competitor. Yes, Lyn has free dracoslayer and Celica has staff usage, but they are the only ones who have potent niches beyond stats. Elise is objectively superior to Leo by a huge margin. Lucina is objectively superior to Chrom. Caeda is objectively the best pegasus knight.

[Lightcosmo]

4 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I disagree with that assertion completely. Clones are fine if they are used to benefit the game - ie, by offering a big roster (which FEW does not).

 

The reason why clones suck is:

1) They were used to cut corners in an average-sized roster rather than as a means of pleasing the fans to the maximum extent possible.

2) Statistical differences don't provide for unique roles when one singular stat (Luck) single-handedly determines which version of a unit has the highest combat effectiveness.

3) Most clones have no means of standing out from their superior combat competitor. Yes, Lyn has free dracoslayer and Celica has staff usage, but they are the only ones who have potent niches beyond stats. Elise is objectively superior to Leo by a huge margin. Lucina is objectively superior to Chrom. Caeda is objectively the best pegasus knight.

If the option to be unique is there, why not use it? That logic just doesnt make sense to me. Why settle for less?

[Fabulously Olivier]

8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

If the option to be unique is there, why not use it? That logic just doesnt make sense to me. Why settle for less?

Because if a game about fanservice can have 50 characters using 20 movesets, that can be preferable to 30 characters using 30 movesets. If that's the difference between someone's favorite getting in or not getting it, that can make the game better for them.

 

There's also a very tangible way to get higher value out of clone movesets in a follow up - alternate weapons. Claude's flying bow moveset becomes much more practical if you can also give it to Hinoka. Elincia's flying sword moveset becomes much more valuable if you can also give it to Claude and Caeda. Constance's flying tome moveset becomes much more valuable if you can also give it to Cordelia.

 

And the player benefits because they get to use a moveset they like without having to use a character they don't. I hate Elise. But I can still enjoy her moveset on Leo. Because the game's stats are poorly designed, I'm actively punished for that preference, but the option is there.

 

 

And yes, HW is absolutely loaded with low quality movesets. Nothing in FEW is even remotely as impractical as Midna or Fi's eternal combo animations.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Florete]

17 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

There's also a very tangible way to get higher value out of clone movesets in a follow up - alternate weapons. Claude's flying bow moveset becomes much more practical if you can also give it to Hinoka. Elincia's flying sword moveset becomes much more valuable if you can also give it to Claude and Caeda. Constance's flying tome moveset becomes much more valuable if you can also give it to Cordelia.

Before FEW's release it was speculated something like this might happen. I still find it surprising it ended up not being a thing considering class changing is a mechanic in all 3 of Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Fates.

[Lightcosmo]

38 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Because if a game about fanservice can have 50 characters using 20 movesets, that can be preferable to 30 characters using 30 movesets. If that's the difference between someone's favorite getting in or not getting it, that can make the game better for them.

 

There's also a very tangible way to get higher value out of clone movesets in a follow up - alternate weapons. Claude's flying bow moveset becomes much more practical if you can also give it to Hinoka. Elincia's flying sword moveset becomes much more valuable if you can also give it to Claude and Caeda. Constance's flying tome moveset becomes much more valuable if you can also give it to Cordelia.

 

And the player benefits because they get to use a moveset they like without having to use a character they don't. I hate Elise. But I can still enjoy her moveset on Leo. Because the game's stats are poorly designed, I'm actively punished for that preference, but the option is there.

 

 

And yes, HW is absolutely loaded with low quality movesets. Nothing in FEW is even remotely as impractical as Midna or Fi's eternal combo animations.

Well with the same moveset it becomes " I'll use Lucina over Chrom because I prefer her, but what makes either stand out? Since they have the same moveset, it doesnt.

That's the same trap that hits Smash as well, the unique characters get played more often because its simply more enjoyable to alot of people. 

Theres a reason HW got a ton on new content and FEW died quickly. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

11 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Well with the same moveset it becomes " I'll use Lucina over Chrom because I prefer her, but what makes either stand out? Since they have the same moveset, it doesnt.

That's the same trap that hits Smash as well, the unique characters get played more often because its simply more enjoyable to alot of people. 

Theres a reason HW got a ton on new content and FEW died quickly. 

Because HW is using one of gaming's most popular IPs and FEW isn't? Has nothing to do with "movesets" or even game quality. HW could be actual factual dogshit and people would still eat it up because it's Zelda (they've been doing it with Pokemon for years).

 

Lucina and Chrom don't stand out because their weapons are also identical. FEW only has a few opportunities for a character to stand out. Stats (aka, the highest luck character wins), unique weapon skills (which are extremely limited because it's just Slayer skills), and staff usage or no staff usage. 

 

It lacks a great many ways that characters can be made to stand out. Alternate weapons (give Chrom a lance and Lucina a bow), personal non-inheritable skills (this could have even just been them getting their personal skill without taking a skill slot), and non-slayer weapon skills (ie: Chrom's Falchion has Warrior+ while Lucina's has Critical Focus).

Edited October 9, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Lightcosmo]

3 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Because HW is using one of gaming's most popular IPs and FEW isn't? Has nothing to do with "movesets" of even game quality. HW could be actual factual dogshit and people would still eat it up because it's Zelda (they've been doing it with Pokemon for years).

 

Lucina and Chrom don't stand out because their weapons are also identical. FEW only has a few opportunities for a character to stand out. Stats (aka, the highest luck character wins), unique weapon skills (which are extremely limited because it's just Slayer skills), and staff usage or no staff usage. 

 

It lacks a great many ways that characters can be made to stand out. Alternate weapons (give Chrom a lance and Lucina a bow), personal non-inheritable skills (this could have even just been them getting their personal skill without taking a skill slot), and non-slayer weapon skills (ie: Chrom's Falchion has Warrior+ while Lucina's has Critical Focus).

Yeah all that is possible and good ideas, but the fact is they didn't use those.

And what? FE isnt popular? Yeah right.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Yeah all that is possible and good ideas, but the fact is they didn't use those.

And what? FE isnt popular? Yeah right.

FE is popular, but it's not in the same league as Zelda. We're talking approximately 18 million sales for BotW vs. approximately 3 million for 3 Houses. Zelda is literally 6 times more popular than FE and has a degree of zealous fanboyism that FE has never had.

 

And again. I'm not defending clones as implemented in FEW. I'm defending clones in concept. There are far too many ways in which FEW failed to capitalize on its potential.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Lightcosmo]

4 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

FE is popular, but it's not in the same league as Zelda. We're talking approximately 18 million sales for BotW vs. approximately 3 million for 3 Houses. Zelda is literally 6 times more popular than FE and has a degree of zealous fanboyism that FE has never had.

 

And again. I'm not defending clones as implemented in FEW. I'm defending clones in concept. There are far too many ways in which FEW failed to capitalize on its potential.

To be straight, I like Clones in Smash. The give options to people. For example, what if you cant land Marth's tippers? Then Lucina is a great option for you. FEW doesnt give you a reason to use another character, and that's the issue i have with their clone system.

They can be done the right way, for sure. I dunno maybe you're right. I just find their system a little lackluster is all.

[Fabulously Olivier]

16 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

To be straight, I like Clones in Smash. The give options to people. For example, what if you cant land Marth's tippers? Then Lucina is a great option for you. FEW doesnt give you a reason to use another character, and that's the issue i have with their clone system.

They can be done the right way, for sure. I dunno maybe you're right. I just find their system a little lackluster is all.

What I will say is that in the very rare cases in which Warriors offers characters ways to viably stand out, it works. If a sequel can make even more and better ways to distinguish clones, you'd get your "reasons to use another character."

 

Lyn vs. Navarre

Navarre has better stats. Lyn has built in dracoslayer on her weapon.

Swords with built in Dracoslayer are best used as anti-triangle weapons with Mountslayer. Swords without are best used as Wingslayer/Plateslayer.

Playing optimally, Navarre is now a regular sword who is strong against axes, weak against lances with effective damage against most lances - fliers and armored enemies. 

Playing optimally, Lyn is now strong against lances, weak against axes, with effective damage against most axe enemies - wyvern riders and great knights. She also deals effective damage to the most common hero types - mounted units.

 

Marth vs. Celica

Take the above and reverse it. Marth is the Lyn with higher stats. Celica is the Navarre with staff usage. Meaning that Marth and Celica are even more distinct.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Lightcosmo]

Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

What I will say is that in the very rare cases in which Warriors offers characters ways to viably stand out, it works.

 

Lyn vs. Navarre

Navarre has better stats. Lyn has built in dracoslayer on her weapon.

Swords with built in Dracoslayer are best used as anti-triangle weapons with Mountslayer. Swords without are best used as Wingslayer/Mountslayer.

Playing optimally, Navarre is now a regular sword who is strong against axes, weak against lances with effective damage against most lances - fliers and armored enemies. 

Playing optimally, Lyn is now strong against lances, weak against axes, with effective damage against most axe enemies - wyvern riders and great knights. She also deals effective damage to the most common hero types - mounted units.

 

Marth vs. Celica

Take the above and reverse it. Marth is the Lyn with higher stats. Celica is the Navarre with staff usage. Meaning that Marth and Celica are even more distinct.

Yeah, now if they applied things like that to every character they might feel more unique. 

To be fair, I dont know much about the FEW cast as the only character I play as is Lucina, so I haven't experimented much.

Wait, I thought Celica's stats were amazing?

[Florete]

34 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Theres a reason HW got a ton on new content and FEW died quickly. 

There is, but it's not what you're implying. Hyrule Warriors got ported to a more successful console than the failed Wii U and they decided to add some new content to the port. FEW hasn't had a chance to be ported to anything because the Switch is way more successful than the Wii U and it's already on the 3DS.

FEW didn't "die" any faster than any individual release of HW.

4 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Marth vs. Celica

Take the above and reverse it. Marth is the Lyn with higher stats. Celica is the Navarre with staff usage. Meaning that Marth and Celica are even more distinct.

Celica also has equal Magic and Strength for potential use with Topsy-Turvy and Resonating Power.

[Lightcosmo]

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

There is, but it's not what you're implying. Hyrule Warriors got ported to a more successful console than the failed Wii U and they decided to add some new content to the port. FEW hasn't had a chance to be ported to anything because the Switch is way more successful than the Wii U and it's already on the 3DS.

FEW didn't "die" any faster than any individual release of HW.

Well yeah, the Wii U was a shit system, even Smash didn't last on there. It did damn good considering what they had to work with.

But the amount of content they had even on the Wii U was more than FEW had.

Moreso on the 3DS/Switch of course.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

Well yeah, the Wii U was a shit system, even Smash didn't last on there. It did damn good considering what they had to work with.

But the amount of content they had even on the Wii U was more than FEW had.

Moreso on the 3DS/Switch of course.

All that really means was that they cared about HW more. Not surprising at all given Zelda's legacy.

 

For my money though, Hyrule Warriors is only fun for its story mode. The Legend Mode is a damn slog. Whereas FEW is the opposite; I didn't enjoy the story, while I've sunk hundreds of hours into History.

[Lightcosmo]

Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

All that really means was that they cared about HW more. Not surprising at all given Zelda's legacy.

 

For my money though, Hyrule Warriors is only fun for its story mode. The Legend Mode is a damn slog. Whereas FEW is the opposite; I didn't enjoy the story, while I've sunk hundreds of hours into History.

I dunno.

I've put alot of time into both, and think that they're both fine. Just I never switch characters in FEW whereas I do in HW.

[Florete]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

But the amount of content they had even on the Wii U was more than FEW had.

Uh, not really.

Including free DLC, HW had 2 adventure maps and more movesets but fewer characters. Their story modes are similar length

Also including free DLC, FEW had 6 history mode maps, more characters with full voice acting and support conversations as well as skills, a unique feature that HW has nothing like.

[Lightcosmo]

3 minutes ago, Florete said:

Uh, not really.

Including free DLC, HW had 2 adventure maps and more movesets but fewer characters. Their story modes are similar length

Also including free DLC, FEW had 6 history mode maps, more characters with full voice acting and support conversations as well as skills, a unique feature that HW has nothing like.

Well consider there was actual effort in movesets, and the pallete options characters had. 

Along with characters having three different weapons of their type, rather than sharing overall.

That's where most of the content comes from, IMO. 

[Florete]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

Well consider there was actual effort in movesets,

Subjective. I think there was plenty of effort in FEW movesets.

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

and the pallete options characters had. 

FEW has costumes, as well. A lot of HW costumes are simple color reskins, whereas FEW has more actual costumes.

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

Along with characters having three different weapons of their type, rather than sharing overall.

This system is way better in FEW than in HW.

[Lightcosmo]

5 minutes ago, Florete said:

Subjective. I think there was plenty of effort in FEW movesets.

FEW has costumes, as well. A lot of HW costumes are simple color reskins, whereas FEW has more actual costumes.

This system is way better in FEW than in HW.

Ehhh, I suppose so.

Count the numbers, I'll take that trade. 

Subjective, I think it's better in HW. Not the best argument, really.

At this point, I'm not sure it's worth arguing over, since it's always going to be an opinion.

[Fabulously Olivier]

9 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Well consider there was actual effort in movesets, and the pallete options characters had. 

Along with characters having three different weapons of their type, rather than sharing overall.

That's where most of the content comes from, IMO. 

I disagree so hard on effort in movesets.

 

Every single FEW moveset is fun and effective. They are all fast, responsive, and snappy, especially with Astra. Yes, even Corrin.

 

HW movesets were designed to be flashy and representative, not practical, so those that are practical are often so out of coincidence. The game is bloated with characters that are just horribly inefficient and unintuitive.

[Lightcosmo]

4 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I disagree so hard on effort in movesets.

 

Every single FEW moveset is fun and effective. They are all fast, responsive, and snappy, especially with Astra. Yes, even Corrin.

 

HW movesets were designed to be flashy and representative, not practical, so those that are practical are often so out of coincidence. The game is bloated with characters that are just horribly inefficient and unintuitive.

Odds are if you have to rely on something broken to be fun, its probably not that fun in the first place. 

I've never experienced that issue before. If anything the characters attacks feel quicker in HW. (Link, Young Link, for starters.) Obviously YL is a total busted monster though.