Blue Lions or Golden Deer for first maddening run

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Barren said:

So far I'm near the end of chapter 9 getting some paralogues out of the way just for the sake of clearing out some battles. I did try white magic avoid +20 with dorothea. As long as she's in the bushes or thickets that provide extra avoid, even on maddening mode archers and brigands have a really hard time hitting her. For instance, one of the enemy archers or Raphael's and Ignatz's paralogue battle had only a 17% chance of hitting Dorothea and she's only a priest because I needed some extra healing power on my team. Brigands had about roughly I think 30 something percent chance of hitting me. I didn't write down the exact numbers but I was impressed with how low their hit rate was for me. Granted I had her hiding in a bush but still.

Were these rates with Nosferatu equipped, or with a healing spell (Heal or Physic)? Because, in the former case, the weapon weight somewhat undermines her attack speed (and, thereby, her physical avoid). There's no question that White Magic Avoid +20 can help a pure support build avoid enemy attacks. But it doesn't work as well on offensive builds, as offensive white magic tends to do worse than the Reason options. And in many cases, you want a "draw-in" unit who can damage the enemy in their own right.

2 hours ago, Barren said:

This would probably convince me that Byleth can pull it off better because Byleth in general is more bulky compared to Dorothea. 

The trouble here is Byleth's spell lists. They have Recover (rather than Physic), so they can't always count on hiding in a bush while healing an ally. And their offensive spellls, Nosferatu and Aura, are quite heavy (8 and 12, respectively), again undermining the avoid boosts (and raising the specter of getting doubled).

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Marienburg said:

I think they knew. Nosferatu tanking is a major strategy in Awakening, for example. White Magic Avoid is a breadcrumb for players to discover the strategy and a reward for those who try out different playstyles. 

Problem is, while it was viable in Awakening, it's not so much here, with 12 uses and only 1 might. Also, what if you run out of Nosferatu?

[Barren]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Were these rates with Nosferatu equipped, or with a healing spell (Heal or Physic)? Because, in the former case, the weapon weight somewhat undermines her attack speed (and, thereby, her physical avoid). There's no question that White Magic Avoid +20 can help a pure support build avoid enemy attacks. But it doesn't work as well on offensive builds, as offensive white magic tends to do worse than the Reason options. And in many cases, you want a "draw-in" unit who can damage the enemy in their own right.

The trouble here is Byleth's spell lists. They have Recover (rather than Physic), so they can't always count on hiding in a bush while healing an ally. And their offensive spellls, Nosferatu and Aura, are quite heavy (8 and 12, respectively), again undermining the avoid boosts (and raising the specter of getting doubled).

For Dorothea she had a nosferatu tome equipped. I think I gave her a Silver Shield so she can at least live one hit from the archer. She’ll still get doubled by sword users for sure. Evasion ring I know would be better in that situation.

 I would definitely agree that as an offensive build wouldn’t work because the damage output was little in comparison to the enemy’s attack since nosferatu is rather weak. I was trying it out for myself and had other allies nearby so they can wallop them. Dorothea had thoron at that point so I was able to soften them with that and had some close up attackers finish them off.

Good point about Byleth having recover instead of physic and not being as an effective healer. And you’re also right about Aura being heavy. I haven’t unlocked Aura at this point and I might not go for it since I at least unlocked Recover for Byleth in case I need a super heal. But your point still stands.

If I run into those kinds of scenarios again I’ll be sure to post pictures of it. The switch recently got an update where you can transfer pictures from your switch to your computer so it’ll be handy going forward 

[SnowFire]

Yeah, it's a bit of a meme build, but Bishop or Gremory Byleth can actually get enough Nosferatu charges, combined with decent durability, to pull off some sort of discount Tharja impression.  The issue is just that, as usual, 5 skill slots is really tight - 3H wants you to pick one gimmick and stick with it.  Faith Proficiency, White Mag Avo+20, and Weight-3 are basically mandatory, and those are 3/5 skill slots right there.  Not a lot of room left for whatever else you might want (Sword Proficiency?  Mag +2 or Spd+2?  Sacred Power?  Alert Stance?).  I suppose Dorothea can do the same but she's frailer than Byleth, which makes the Nos tanking strategy a little more suspect as there are definitely plenty of enemies in Maddening who OHKO Doro if the evade hax fail, or accurately double-and-2HKO-through-the-drain (Pegasus Knights and the like).

Edited December 1, 2020 by SnowFire

[Barren]

I do at least plan on mastering EO before jumping into Falcon Knight since combining Alert Stance and Sacred Power should be interesting to at least test out. I already have her as an Assassin and she at least doesn't get doubled by anyone outside of brawlers and grapplers at the moment.

[Marienburg]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Problem is, while it was viable in Awakening, it's not so much here, with 12 uses and only 1 might. Also, what if you run out of Nosferatu?

Sure, it's not vantage/wrath dimitri playing diablo on his way to the boss. But it's a cute gimmick with little investment. I personally prefer the lower reward and higher risk because it forces an interesting choice from the player, in contrast to stuff like vantage/wrath, alert stance dodge tanking or even warp which just trivializes most of the content.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

54 minutes ago, Barren said:

For Dorothea she had a nosferatu tome equipped. I think I gave her a Silver Shield so she can at least live one hit from the archer. She’ll still get doubled by sword users for sure. Evasion ring I know would be better in that situation.

 I would definitely agree that as an offensive build wouldn’t work because the damage output was little in comparison to the enemy’s attack since nosferatu is rather weak. I was trying it out for myself and had other allies nearby so they can wallop them. Dorothea had thoron at that point so I was able to soften them with that and had some close up attackers finish them off.

Good point about Byleth having recover instead of physic and not being as an effective healer. And you’re also right about Aura being heavy. I haven’t unlocked Aura at this point and I might not go for it since I at least unlocked Recover for Byleth in case I need a super heal. But your point still stands.

If I run into those kinds of scenarios again I’ll be sure to post pictures of it. The switch recently got an update where you can transfer pictures from your switch to your computer so it’ll be handy going forward 

Huh, that's more impressive with Nosferatu equipped. She still can't counter enemy Archers (without retribution support, or Caduceus/Thyrsus), but few units can. I might have to try exploiting a Faith dodgetank at some point. I did get a decent amount of satisfaction out of Dark Knight Sylvain, with Black Magic Avoid +20 (particularly once he got Tomebreaker).

6 minutes ago, Barren said:

I do at least plan on mastering EO before jumping into Falcon Knight since combining Alert Stance and Sacred Power should be interesting to at least test out. I already have her as an Assassin and she at least doesn't get doubled by anyone outside of brawlers and grapplers at the moment.

Huh, she's not even doubled by sword infantry? That's... impressive. Fingers crossed that that keeps up. Anyway, Alert Stance and Sacred Power are both worthy skills, even if they don't particularly synergize with one another.

[Barren]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Huh, that's more impressive with Nosferatu equipped. She still can't counter enemy Archers (without retribution support, or Caduceus/Thyrsus), but few units can. I might have to try exploiting a Faith dodgetank at some point. I did get a decent amount of satisfaction out of Dark Knight Sylvain, with Black Magic Avoid +20 (particularly once he got Tomebreaker).

Huh, she's not even doubled by sword infantry? That's... impressive. Fingers crossed that that keeps up. Anyway, Alert Stance and Sacred Power are both worthy skills, even if they don't particularly synergize with one another.

I was fortunate that it’s working out so far because I had her leveled up as a Myrmidon, then Mercenary then Pegasus Knight and right now Assassin. I did also get weight-3 and darting blow. The only thing I haven’t had her go up against right now in part 1 are swordmasters and other assassins. I had an iron sword forged equipped as well. She wasn’t a OHKO machine but she at least doesn’t get doubled in general in part 1. 

[Barren]

Here is my current progression so far. While I did forget to take a picture of Dorothea's abilities, she has Reason Level 3, Faith Level 3, Rally Charm, White Magic Avoid +20 and Fiendish Blow. Also apologies in advance for the double post. I also accidentally posted the same picture of Mercedes twice so pay it no mind.

 

EDIT: In the future I will post links from image shack the next time I post pics. Apologies in advance

Edited December 2, 2020 by Barren
deleting images

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Yeah, it's a bit of a meme build, but Bishop or Gremory Byleth can actually get enough Nosferatu charges, combined with decent durability, to pull off some sort of discount Tharja impression.  The issue is just that, as usual, 5 skill slots is really tight - 3H wants you to pick one gimmick and stick with it.  Faith Proficiency, White Mag Avo+20, and Weight-3 are basically mandatory, and those are 3/5 skill slots right there.  Not a lot of room left for whatever else you might want (Sword Proficiency?  Mag +2 or Spd+2?  Sacred Power?  Alert Stance?).  I suppose Dorothea can do the same but she's frailer than Byleth, which makes the Nos tanking strategy a little more suspect as there are definitely plenty of enemies in Maddening who OHKO Doro if the evade hax fail, or accurately double-and-2HKO-through-the-drain (Pegasus Knights and the like).

Except unlike in Awakening, not only is Nosferatu weak, but Byleth is not likely to have the magic to make it work.

 

1 hour ago, Marienburg said:

Sure, it's not vantage/wrath dimitri playing diablo on his way to the boss. But it's a cute gimmick with little investment. I personally prefer the lower reward and higher risk because it forces an interesting choice from the player, in contrast to stuff like vantage/wrath, alert stance dodge tanking or even warp which just trivializes most of the content.

To say it needs "little investment" is a joke, considering the need for faculty training. "Power-up letdown" sounds much more apropos.

[Marienburg]

46 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except unlike in Awakening, not only is Nosferatu weak, but Byleth is not likely to have the magic to make it work.

 

To say it needs "little investment" is a joke, considering the need for faculty training. "Power-up letdown" sounds much more apropos.

I'm sorry that you were disappointed. Look on the bright side, at least it's not training a reason sylvain only to realize that you turned your quick striking death god into a bad Lorenz.

[SnowFire]

49 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except unlike in Awakening, not only is Nosferatu weak, but Byleth is not likely to have the magic to make it work.

The purpose of a dodgetank is mostly to bait and survive, not necessarily kill everything.  After the enemies are baited forward, the rest of the team can kill them on player phase.  Also, Byleth supports everybody.  Non-CF/SS Dorothea does not. 

To be sure, Dorothea's far superior Reason list means she's the better mage and probably the better unit than Mage-Byleth, just strictly from a dodgetank perspective, Byleth is notably safer than Doro at it, which is why I brought it up.  That said, faith dodgetank Dorothea is cool and it's neat to read about! 

[Shadow Mir]

24 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

The purpose of a dodgetank is mostly to bait and survive, not necessarily kill everything.  After the enemies are baited forward, the rest of the team can kill them on player phase.  Also, Byleth supports everybody.  Non-CF/SS Dorothea does not. 

To be sure, Dorothea's far superior Reason list means she's the better mage and probably the better unit than Mage-Byleth, just strictly from a dodgetank perspective, Byleth is notably safer than Doro at it, which is why I brought it up.  That said, faith dodgetank Dorothea is cool and it's neat to read about! 

At the same time, I also want them to damage their attackers, if possible, as player phase cleanup is easier when the enemies are already damaged. Once Byleth runs out of Nosferatu, then what? Let them be a punching bag that does nothing to whatever they're baiting in return?

Edited December 2, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Barren]

Here are more of my current roster. With that out of the way, what do you think I should do from there? I'm still feeling out some final team members. But so far, it's definitely going to be Claude, Leonie, Lysithea, Marianne and maybe Ignatz. I've been considering either Felix or Balthus as my go to War Master since both of them are good candidates. 

EDIT: Of course this post limiting me to post pics at the moment. I will have the rest hopefully soon enough

Edit 2: I had to delete the pics because they take a lot of space.

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Barren
deleting images

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Marienburg said:

I'm sorry that you were disappointed. Look on the bright side, at least it's not training a reason sylvain only to realize that you turned your quick striking death god into a bad Lorenz.

Bad take, Lorenz and Sylvain have different credits in this build. Lorenz has higher Magic and Resistance, stronger spells (Ragnarok, Agnea's Arrow), and Frozen Lance. Sylvain has better Charm and Speed, Black Magic Avoid +20, and niche spells like Physic and Seraphim.

10 minutes ago, Barren said:

Here are more of my current roster. With that out of the way, what do you think I should do from there? I'm still feeling out some final team members. But so far, it's definitely going to be Claude, Leonie, Lysithea, Marianne and maybe Ignatz. I've been considering either Felix or Balthus as my go to War Master since both of them are good candidates. 

Well, it looks like you have a bunch of good options set up. I would say, figure out your favorites, then add in what you're missing. Like, if you're not using rallies on Ignatz, you can bring Annette on board for Rally support and Heals. If you don't have a dedicated Physic user (considering Marianne is dancing), Linhardt or Mercedes can satisfy this nicely. As for Felix vs. Balthus, it's generally a question of speed and skill against strength and physical bulk. They fulfill different niches, so you can honestly use both.

[Barren]

I had to resort to using image shack since simply copying and pasting won't do it any more. I'll have to settle for using this for the time being. Again I apologize for the multiple posts. Also I don't really plan on using Manuela or Hanneman for this run.

 

Constance

Yuri 1

Yuri 1-2

Ferdinand 1

Ferdinand 1-2

Balthus 1

Balthus 1-2

Lysithea 1

Lysithea 1-2

Claude 1

Claude 1-2

 

 

[LoneStar]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

At the same time, I also want them to damage their attackers, if possible, as player phase cleanup is easier when the enemies are already damaged. Once Byleth runs out of Nosferatu, then what? Let them be a punching bag that does nothing to whatever they're baiting in return?

I'm not sure what you expect happens when you dodge tank with Nosferatu in this game. Your Byleth has 12 uses, and at most you will be baiting 3 enemies directly, and the rest of them should just move towards you. Then you deal with them when they are closer with stuff like gambits. Once the big bulk of enemies are gone you have free rein, its not like you're using Byleth to do only this the entire time.

@Barren Why do you have so many character as Priests? I was skimming through, I saw something about Dorothea using WM Avoid. It looks like you're getting through fine, but I'm scared you're spreading your resources too thin.

[Barren]

27 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

 

@Barren Why do you have so many character as Priests? I was skimming through, I saw something about Dorothea using WM Avoid. It looks like you're getting through fine, but I'm scared you're spreading your resources too thin.

I think it's because I'm trying out a couple of characters as priests for the sake of having stronger healing. I know +5 heal isn't much of a difference but every bit helps. Plus if anything as long as I have a level 20 or so bishop on my team somewhere for Phsyic and/or Fortify healing then I think I should manage somehow. I'm also making use of concoctions as well. I'm hoping to eventually figure out who I'll definitely be using come part 2.

As far as spreading my resources to thin, I have been for the most part been weapon/class grinding on the auxiliary battles for as long as there is a priest or bishop left that wasted their offensive white magic. It's how for example I got Byleth to get Windsweep at this point

[LoneStar]

I'm not sure if you know, but you have access to Impregnable Wall on a C rank Battalion. This makes your unit and enemies attacking them do 1 damage max, so you can safely bait and pick them off afterwards.

[Barren]

I have used it in the Sothis paralogue battle actually and it saved me from losing any of my units when I was in a tight spot. So I'm definitely using it when I am in a pickle

[Shadow Mir]

14 hours ago, LoneStar said:

I'm not sure what you expect happens when you dodge tank with Nosferatu in this game. Your Byleth has 12 uses, and at most you will be baiting 3 enemies directly, and the rest of them should just move towards you. Then you deal with them when they are closer with stuff like gambits. Once the big bulk of enemies are gone you have free rein, its not like you're using Byleth to do only this the entire time.

Again, 12 uses is not a lot. And if that's your go-to lure tactic, you WILL run out of Nosferatu eventually. Then what?? Also, offensive gambits only have 1 or 2 uses.

[Barren]

I think as long as you have enough allies nearby to take advantage of the bait then I think it can work. At least as a bishop or gremory you’ll get more mileage out of it. You are right about nosferatu running out at some point, but I think you need a strong formation to benefit from this strat.

 

But otherwise general dodge tanks with alert stance tends to work better.

[Barren]

Okay now I am about to do the chapter 12 battle and then immediately proceed to chapter 13. I am nervous going into because while I think I leveled up by units pretty well, I know that it's going to be really tough. So I want to share with you guys my stats so far. Also I have used some stat boosters to help them out a bit. Also, I plan on using swordbreaker for the chapter 13 fight to at least give myself somewhat of an edge over the thieves and mercenaries that are flooded on this map. The Assassins and Snipers I am worried about and I know Pallardo will be a pain in the ass this time around. I have the Seraph Robe but I am unsure on who to give it to.

 

Spoiler

Byleth is right now EO at level 28. 44 HP. 31 Strength, 20 Magic, 28 Dexterity, 25 Speed, 26 Luck, 17 Defense, 12 Res and 40 Charm. Cichol Wyvern Co. as a battalion

I have Sword Prowess Level 5, Alert Stance, White Magic Avoid +20, Weight -3, and Faith Level 3 currently equipped. Evasion Ring is there for dodging purposes. I do have other abilities as well like Darting Blow, Swordbreaker, Vantage, B. Vantage, B, Desperation and Lance Prowess Level 3. Byleth has Recover in case I need a super heal, but 5 uses means I have to pick very carefully on when to use them. I could also reclass her as an Assassin since I know that Byleth will have a better time moving around the grass and thickets. In that case, I could swap over some abilities to get Bow Prowess and Close Counter just in case I get attacked.

 

Spoiler

Claude is a Sniper at level 25. 41 HP, 25 Strength, 11 Magic, 28 Dexterity, 26 Speed, 24 Luck, 15 Defense, 12 Res and 25 Charm. Goneril Valkyries as a battalion

I have Bow Prowess Level 4, Death Blow, Alert Stance, Hit +20 and HP +5 equipped. I have Chalice of Beginnings equipped for counter attacking in conjunction with HP +5 is there for more survivability. I know he'll be a Wyvern Master soon in part 2 so I figured I work on his flying as well as his Bows. He'll eventually get Battalion Wrath in case I want to try an enemy phase dodge and crit set up.

 

Spoiler

Lorenz is a Paladin at level 22. 46 HP, 21 Strength, 17 Magic, 18 Dexterity, 16 Speed, 15 Luck, 14 Defense, 23 Res and 9 Charm. Nuvelle Stewards Co. as a battalion.

I have Lance Prowess Level 3, Swordbreaker, Magic +2, Fiendish Blow, and HP +5 equipped. Hopefully with swordbreaker and the aid of some bushes he can draw in the sword users while Ignatz shoots them down. Frozen Lance is my win con with him since this deals significant damage to them. I gave him a Silver Shield since his defense is a little lacking.

 

Spoiler

Raphael is a Grappler at level 22. 56 HP, 24 Strength, 9 Magic, 16 Dexterity, 17 Speed, 18 Luck, 17 Defense, 6 Res and 12 Charm. Alliance Wyvern Co. as a battalion.

I have Brawling Prowess Level 4. Armored Blow, Battalion Wrath, HP +5 and Death Blow equipped. Goddess Ring for more luck and HP regen. On player phase, he's supposed to deal damage and take little physical damage in return thanks to the two blows. HP is there for more longevity although I could give him Strength +2 for him to deal slightly more damage. I have B. Wrath equipped just in case he takes enough damage and his crit chances jacks up on enemy phase. I gave him a pair of Killer Gauntlets just for that purpose.

 

Spoiler

Ignatz is a Sniper at level 22. 36 HP, 22 Strength, 9 Magic, 24 Dexterity, 23 Speed, 22 Luck, 13 Defense, 12 Res and 12 Charm. Fraldarius Soldiers as a battalion.

I have Bow Prowess Level 4, Hit +20, Strength +2, Death Blow and Close Counter. I gave him a Critical Ring so he can score more KOs. This is your standard Sniper set for the most part. I also have Rally Speed and Dex in case one of them is more important at the moment. I could replace strength +2 with a Rally, maybe speed since that tends to be more important. I also have Seal Strength just in case.

 

Spoiler

Lysithea is a Bishop at level 24. 44 HP, 10 Strength, 35 Magic, 24 Dexterity, 18 Speed, 12 Luck, 12 Defense, 22 Res and 16 Charm. Macuil Evil Repelling Co. as a battalion

I have Reason level 4, Vantage, Fiendish Blow, HP +5 and Magic +2. I made her a Bishop because I wanted 2x of Warp early. Plus giving her the Thyrsus Staff extends her offensive range so that always helps. I do plan on making her a Gremory soon since she is very close to reaching there. I could also certify her as a mortal savant just to get whatever extra stat boosts I am missing if necessary.

 

Spoiler

Marianne is a Dancer at level 27. 41 HP, 18 Strength, 29 Magic, 21 Dexterity, 21 Speed, 14 Luck, 14 Defense, 18 Res and 30 Charm. Essar Research Group as a battalion

I have Sword Prowess Level 4, Sword Avoid +20, HP +5, Magic +2, and Special Dance equipped. March Ring is there for the extra movement. I've been using her a lot in this playthrough. More than I thought I would. Dance is just that useful. I certified her as a Paladin so she can get the extra strength and defense buffs. Also I want to get her Riding rank as high as possible for Movement +1. So she can have 8 move as a Dancer. I could always swap out March Ring for maybe Healing Staff since it will increase her Physic healing quite nicely as a back up.

 

Spoiler

Hilda is a Wyvern Rider at level 23. 45 HP, 26 Strength, 15 Magic, 16 Dexterity, 27 Speed, 18 Luck, 17 Defense, 11 Res and 21 Charm. Alliance Pegasus Co. as a battalion

I have right now as for the next 2 chapter fights Lance Prowess Level 3, Battalion Wrath, Death Blow, Swordbreaker and Alert Stance. I gave her an accuracy ring so her hit rate won't be bad. I do plan on eventually giving back her Axe prowess and Lancebreaker so she can be a decent Pegasus Knight counter. I got the Freikugel axe as well in case things get dicey.

 

Spoiler

Leonie is a Paladin at level 22. 44 HP, 21 Strength, 9 Magic, 23 Dexterity, 22 Speed, 13 Luck, 17 Defense, 10 Res and 15 Charm. Knights of Seiros equipped as a battalion

I have Lance Prowess Level 3, HP +5, Death Blow, Swordbreaker and Hit +20 equipped. Similar to Lorenz, she'll also help deal with the sword users for those fights. I am one rank off on getting Point-Blank Volley for her so she'll have to wait until she becomes very useful. I gave her a Hexlock shield since her defense isn't too bad right now but her Res is lacking.

 

Basically my plan is to hopefully have a somewhat easier time on chapter 13. What do you guys think?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

This squad looks pretty good. Re: Byleth, I find EO to be good in Chapter 13, for the healimg option (especially before any of your mages show up). Re: Raphael, I'd definitely favor Str+2 over HP+5 - by the way, did he get Death Blow? Re: Ignatz, it depends on how you want to use him. I like him with Rallies and a support gambit, but you can also favor him as an attacker in his own right. Re: Marianne, maybe she'd favor an avoid-boosting battalion, to synergize with her skills? Re: Leonie, Hexlock Shield... isn't very good. Especially in chapter 13, which is devoid of mages. If you really want to salvage her Res, try a Pure Water. Also, slap a Brave Lance on that girl (and Hilda), if you haven't already.

Good luck!

[Barren]

He did yes. I think I forgot to mention it but I do have it available on him. I do have one Brave Lance I got from one of the DLC quest. I think it was Code of Conduct where Byleth has to go tot he training grounds. I might have enough Wootz Steel to make one more since I also fished like crazy on chapter 9. Fun fact: I jumped up from rank B to rank A in one fishing session during the Fist Full of Fish event because I stocked up on so much bait

And by the time I finished chapter 11 I reached professor rank A+