What if Marth married Nyna?

[Jotari]

Shadow Dragon has two endings. One good ending where Shiida is alive and Marth proposes to her, and one bad ending where Shiida is dead and Nyna and Marth comment on their mutual loss of their lovers with a reference to Artemis's Curse. Obviously the canon ending is the Shiida lives ending...So what happens in the Shiida's dead ending? Nyana's marriage proposals were a toss up between Marth and Hardin with Hardin being the obvious choice because Marth was engaged to Shiida. But with Shiida dead, what would happen if Marth and Nyna get into a political marriage of shared heart break? What happens then? Everything bad in Mystery of the Emblem happens because Gharnef managed to corrupt Hardin using the Dark Sphere, but Ghost Gharnef isn't exactly just going to go away because that's not an option (and even if it were an option, we're looking at a Hardin that has control of Aurelis at best instead of Archanea). Marth isn't exactly the happies camper in this situation so I doubt he could be corrupted either since it was mostly based on jealousy and resentment that corrupted Hardin. Michalis is also still alive and has no less ambition to take over the world, though he doesn't exactly have much power backing him. Would there basically be no conflict at all had Shiida died or could you see a particular avenue of evil Gharnef could head down in this scenario.

As with most Archanea stuff I'm sticking this in general as it sort of covers both NES and SNES and DS Fire Emblem.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

Can sorrow corrupt equally as well as jealousy? Do we have evidence of this in Archanea? We do in Elibe, considering Nergal was probably "wife dies, search for resurrection powers, darkness makes him bat**** insane". But Elibe isn't Archanea. Eremiah? "The orphans, dead? Noooooooo!" Gharnef- *Turns her into a psychopath*

So according to FE12, but not FE3, yes, yes Marth could've been corrupted. His grief is not exactly the same as Eremiah's, though if the all the deaths necessary for the Gaiden chapters of SD happened, it would be closer.

[Acacia Sgt]

Gharnef likely is just more less overt to kidnap the maidens, but yeah, without a big war to serve as distraction, he may have to do something else to increase his chances.

Unless, was it really necessary the four he kidnapped to be the only ones he could use? Since if he could go kidnap easier targets, then Medeus could come back without Marth being ready for him.

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Can sorrow corrupt equally as well as jealousy? Do we have evidence of this in Archanea? We do in Elibe, considering Nergal was probably "wife dies, search for resurrection powers, darkness makes him bat**** insane". But Elibe isn't Archanea. Eremiah? "The orphans, dead? Noooooooo!" Gharnef- *Turns her into a psychopath*

So according to FE12, but not FE3, yes, yes Marth could've been corrupted. His grief is not exactly the same as Eremiah's, though if the all the deaths necessary for the Gaiden chapters of SD happened, it would be closer.

Eremiya and Hardin were easy targets to corrupt. Since they were more or less isolated (not fully in the literal sense) and let to stew in their negative emotions, thus becoming vulnerable, and in Hardin's case, willing to let Gharnef approach him in the first place.

Marth, and Nyna for that matter, would have each other for emotional support at least, and wouldn't likely isolate themselves either. So it's not really as likely, in my opinion.

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Interdimensional Observer]

20 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Eremiya and Hardin were easy targets to corrupt. Since they were more or less isolated (not fully in the literal sense) and let to stew in their negative emotions, thus becoming vulnerable, and in Hardin's case, willing to let Gharnef approach him in the first place.

Marth, and Nyna for that matter, would have each other for emotional support at least, and wouldn't likely isolate themselves either. So it's not really as likely, in my opinion.

True, a case where the power of friendship would be be very good and not a cliche, as it would IRL.

Although part of me wishes it wasn't. To have a corrupted Marth, necessitating Hardin try to rescue him, but failing and himself getting forcefully corrupted. This leaves Sirius who had gotten back from Valentia not too long ago, to drop the mask and rally the disunited Archanean resistors as Camus. Such was an FE Musou scenario I had considered.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Can sorrow corrupt equally as well as jealousy? Do we have evidence of this in Archanea? We do in Elibe, considering Nergal was probably "wife dies, search for resurrection powers, darkness makes him bat**** insane". But Elibe isn't Archanea. Eremiah? "The orphans, dead? Noooooooo!" Gharnef- *Turns her into a psychopath*

So according to FE12, but not FE3, yes, yes Marth could've been corrupted. His grief is not exactly the same as Eremiah's, though if the all the deaths necessary for the Gaiden chapters of SD happened, it would be closer.

Oh wow, Erimiah is a great point. A corrupted Marth scenario seems far more likely to me now. This could be a great idea for a fan game.

[joevar]

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

True, a case where the power of friendship would be be very good and not a cliche, as it would IRL.

Although part of me wishes it wasn't. To have a corrupted Marth, necessitating Hardin try to rescue him, but failing and himself getting forcefully corrupted. This leaves Sirius who had gotten back from Valentia not too long ago, to drop the mask and rally the disunited Archanean resistors as Camus. Such was an FE Musou scenario I had considered.

so basically marth corrupted, camus became main lord to slay him and claim nyna from anyone?

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

political marriage of shared heart break?

is there even a case thats a good thing? seems like recipe for broken royal family which lead to another conflict for sequel with yet another  Medeus return (like any morning kid cartoon villain)

Edited October 21, 2020 by joevar

[Interdimensional Observer]

35 minutes ago, joevar said:

is there even a case thats a good thing? seems like recipe for broken royal family which lead to another conflict for sequel with yetanother  Medeus return (like any morning kid cartoon villain)

I did hear of an anecdote on TV some years ago of an American woman whose husband either died in war or on 9/11, I forget which. Either way, she soon developed in her grief an affinity for either his close friend or his brother, who likewise was saddened by his death. The two thus chose to wed. A consensual modern levirate marriage in a loose sense. Not the best example for NynaxMarth, they have separate deceased individuals and are being wed for politics, but it's something to consider.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

Honestly, as I see it, if Gharnef still plans to use the Darksphere to cause a big distraction as he goes around kidnapping maidens, Hardin is likely to still be his target.

As I mentioned, Marth and Nyna can pretty much help each other heal. They know and understand what the other is going through, having gone through the same thing themselves. What results from that, it's very likely Hardin won't like it, so he'd be down a similar path as his canon self, except having a higher resentment to Marth as well as Nyna this time around. Leaving him ripe for Gharnef to exploit all the same. Sure, Aurelis isn't Archanea, but all Gharnef would care is that a distraction is made as he goes on his kidnapping spree.

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, joevar said:

so basically marth corrupted, camus became main lord to slay him and claim nyna from anyone?

is there even a case thats a good thing? seems like recipe for broken royal family which lead to another conflict for sequel with yetanother  Medeus return (like any morning kid cartoon villain)

Someone that understands and shares Nyna's pain would be a far better pairing for her than someone who is ignorant. It wouldn't be a romantic loving relationship, but it would be mutual support and comfort...unless we want to be pessimistic and say it fails for the sake of getting another war for our entertainment!

[joevar]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

unless we want to be pessimistic and say it fails for the sake of getting another war for our entertainment!

glad you got the point!

 

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I did hear of an anecdote on TV some years ago of an American woman whose husband either died in war or on 9/11, I forget which. Either way, she soon developed in her grief an affinity for either his close friend or his brother, who likewise was saddened by his death. The two thus chose to wed. A consensual modern levirate marriage in a loose sense. Not the best example for NynaxMarth, they have separate deceased individuals and are being wed for politics, but it's something to consider.

i see, nice to see theres actual good case. i guess if they strong enough move on, it could work. since Nyna ending in both game are just sad. wed for politic then the partner just went mad, and the latter chasing a man that already move on with another girl then vanish

actually the first things that in my mind when looking at Nyna in my FE11 playthru "can Marth marry her ? oh.. apparently not no S support)"

Edited October 21, 2020 by joevar

[vanguard333]

I had no idea that there were two endings.

I know that this is a what-if scenario, but I don't think it would be very plausible even if Caeda (and yes, I'm going to refer to her as Caeda because that's how Shadow Dragon's NA localization translated her name) died. Nyna, at the end of Shadow Dragon, was pressured by her noble subordinates to marry either Marth of Hardin (the two remaining male royalty of age) in order to make them emperor (I guess a Queen Elizabeth I situation was out of the question; Archanea is rather misogynistic now that I realize it), and she chose Hardin because of Caeda. I suspect that, if Caeda died, Nyna still wouldn't want to marry Marth because she understands the pain of losing a loved one and she wouldn't want to force him into the very thing that she's being forced into. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by vanguard333

[Acacia Sgt]

I've always had the impression her marriage was more to secure an heir than to have a male on the throne.

What is her age anyway? Already in her twenties? That nudges it more to be a matter of having an heir, to be honest.

[joevar]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I had no idea that there were two endings.

theres only one actually. its just that i consider what happen to her after shadow dragon as her "ending" for that time. you know, if you decide to not continue into mystery emblem

Edited October 21, 2020 by joevar

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I had no idea that there were two endings.

I know that this is a what-if scenario, but I don't think it would be very plausible even if Caeda (and yes, I'm going to refer to her as Caeda because that's how Shadow Dragon's localization translated her name) died. Nyna, at the end of Shadow Dragon, was pressured by her noble subordinates to marry either Marth of Hardin (the two remaining male royalty of age) in order to make them emperor (I guess a Queen Elizabeth I situation was out of the question; Archanea is rather misogynistic now that I realize it), and she chose Hardin because of Caeda. I suspect that, if Caeda died, Nyna still wouldn't want to marry Marth because she understands the pain of losing a loved one and she wouldn't want to force him into the very thing that she's being forced into. 

Depends which localisation

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Depends which localisation

Huh; actually, maybe I'm misremembering which name the version of the game I had used for her. It was the North American localization, and I thought it used Caeda but I now think I might be misremembering. 

EDIT: According to Fire Emblem Wiki, the NA localization used Caeda and both the European localization and Smash Bros. Brawl used Shiida; the latter was probably the reason I thought I was misremembering. 

Anyway, what did you think of my main point?

Edited October 21, 2020 by vanguard333

[Jotari]

37 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Huh; actually, maybe I'm misremembering which name the version of the game I had used for her. It was the North American localization, and I thought it used Caeda but I now think I might be misremembering. 

EDIT: According to Fire Emblem Wiki, the NA localization used Caeda and both the European localization and Smash Bros. Brawl used Shiida; the latter was probably the reason I thought I was misremembering. 

Anyway, what did you think of my main point?

Don't really see any reason for Nyna to not choose Marth. There's a difference between not proposing to someone because they're already engaged and not proposing because their loved one's dead. The fact that he knows what she's going through is even more of a reason why she'd find him a preferred option. If she views a political marriage as really such an awful thing that she wouldn't force Marth to go through she could just not go through with herself. No one can actually order her to marry. And the Artemis Curse ending does specifically having them together at the end reassuring a grieving Marth by referencing her own pain and an intention to build a better world together.

[vanguard333]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Don't really see any reason for Nyna to not choose Marth. There's a difference between not proposing to someone because they're already engaged and not proposing because their loved one's dead. The fact that he knows what she's going through is even more of a reason why she'd find him a preferred option. If she views a political marriage as really such an awful thing that she wouldn't force Marth to go through she could just not go through with herself. No one can actually order her to marry. And the Artemis Curse ending does specifically having them together at the end reassuring a grieving Marth by referencing her own pain and an intention to build a better world together.

I see your point. 

 

13 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Eremiya and Hardin were easy targets to corrupt. Since they were more or less isolated (not fully in the literal sense) and let to stew in their negative emotions, thus becoming vulnerable, and in Hardin's case, willing to let Gharnef approach him in the first place.

Didn't Gharnef have to disguise himself as a common merchant or something like that in order to approach Hardin?

[Pengaius]

I'd say Hardin still gets corrupted, probably more easily too, since Gharnef would spin it to be Marth having 'stolen' Nyna from him after all Hardin did protect Nyna longer than Marth, why shouldn't she have married him. It probably wouldn't be the hardest thing to rile up the people of Aurelius against Macedon or Grust, and Elice would be less protected in Altea as Marth would have no choice but leave her to govern. Maria and Lena would still be easy as they were to kidnap. The biggest difference that I can see is that Hardin would not be able to hand Nyna over, so Gharnef would probably take Yumina. If Archanea get involved in stopping Aurelius, Marth wouldn't be in a position to go to Anri's way, at least not until much later on, so Gharnef would be in an better position, not having to fear Starlight,Marth would still have the Falchion though (unless it remains in Altea for some reson), so that could maybe even it out. 

[Acacia Sgt]

Michalis might still steal Starlight like in canon, so that doesn't strictly has to change. It could, but it's not a guarantee.

Marth not going through Anri's Way early enough only impacts when the Shield gets restored. Since if I recall correctly the barbarian tribes living there hold some of the Starsphere shards. But even then, Marth only went to Anri's Way because Gotoh told him the Lightsphere was there (because he had it and he was over there, but details). So all Marth needs is for Gotoh to contact him and he'll go to Anri's Way anyway. It's not like he didn't left the rest of the continent to fend for itself to make the journey in canon either. So whatever the situation, if Marth deems it important enough (which he might, since the White Sage himself told him to), he will head there regardless of the situation.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[omegaxis1]

I think that if they had married, while Marth and Caeda wouldn't have truly been happy, they would have accepted things. Marth might have no love for Nyna, and vice versa, but they do understand one another and ultimately have a mutual respect for each other. Them marrying would have brought a decent marriage at the very least as they accept their duties. 

Hardin going crazy would not result in a great war happening, as Marth would not have to struggle against Hardin's rebellion. 

The entire War of Heroes in Archanea was just a distraction for Gharnef to find and kidnap the Four Maidens and sacrifice them to revive Medeus, which would not have happened otherwise. So that makes it impossible for his goals to be accomplished. 

[joevar]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

while Marth and Caeda wouldn't have truly been happy,

you mean Nyna?

so in other words, it would be a plausible what-if scenario with some differences key points but the outcome of the next major conflict will mostly be same?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, joevar said:

you mean Nyna?

so in other words, it would be a plausible what-if scenario with some differences key points but the outcome of the next major conflict will mostly be same?

Oh, I was going by the case of Caeda being alive, but Marth still being married to Nyna. Caeda wouldn't be happy. 

[X-Naut]

I think it's possible that Hardin could have been corrupted anyway, as he supposedly held jealousy for Marth anyway; but Aurelis would not likely be sufficient to start a continental war. Grust would have been stable with Marth and Nyna calling the shots and not installing General Lang, and while Macedon remains at risk of boiling over it'd be a cinch to subdue. Marth led a relatively small expedition force against a rebellion that was quietly funded by Hardin and won; Rucke and Rumel wouldn't stand a chance against a damned army. Aurelis has to get through Archanea if it wants to take Altea, so Elice is safe.

Well, short of Gharnef teleport spamming to put his plan into motion, but without the chaos of a widespread war he won't have as good a background to hide in. He'll have a harder time getting Starlight too since he probably mooched it off the Dark Emperor along with Nyna; and even if he did, if Michalis can swipe it back then Marth's going to find some way of retrieving it.

Overall, Gharnef can still throw things out of whack but his endgame is less likely to succeed.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Oh, I was going by the case of Caeda being alive, but Marth still being married to Nyna. Caeda wouldn't be happy. 

Why would you jump to that conclusion? I honestly assumed that was a typo too.

[Acacia Sgt]

Yeah, I don't really see it either. Though pressured by Boah to marry, it is Nyna who ultimately has the final word on who she marries. She chose Hardin over Marth for a reason, and that reason was Caeda.