Normal-Type should have been Beast-Type

[Lord_Brand]

So, the Normal-Type. Basically the closest thing Pokemon has to a "neutral" type, except not really as it's weak to Fighting, resisted by Rock and Steel, immune to Ghost, and doesn't effect Ghost either. So, not a neutral type, just a sucky one with no Type advantages. Then there's the types of moves Normal uses. Mostly it's bodily attacks such as biting and scratching, with the odd punch, kick, energy beam of death, or suicidal explosion in there (wait, what?). The vast majority of Normal-Types are either mammalian animals like mice, rabbits, cats, and dogs, or bizarre freaks that are anything but Normal (like Lickitung, Porygon, Smeargle, etc).

Here's the thing: There exist types that quite handily cover punches, kicks, energy beams, and explosions. Fighting is the type of martial arts, where the majority of punches and kicks occur (not to mention the odd ki-flavored energy attack). Grass, Fire, Electric, Psychic, and Steel all sport energy beams as well (heck, it's easier to name the types that don't use some kind of energy beam). And explosions - well, that's basically Fire. So why the heck are moves like Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Hyper Beam, and Explosion considered Normal-Type? What's Normal about 'em?

I also find it curious how there are types for Bugs, Ghosts, Dragons, and Fairies, but not Cats or Dogs. I mean, mammals have established tropes just like those other creatures, right? And Flying was going to be Bird-type until they realized "crap, there are bats and flying Bugs in here too" and so changed it to something more species-neutral in hopes of not offending bats, Bugs, and other non-fliers.

If you ask me, any attack that involves humanoid combat techniques - like punching or kicking - belongs in Fighting as martial arts are what Fighting is all about. Energy-based attacks like Hyper Beam belong in types like Grass, Fire, Electric, or Steel. And any move that makes your Pokemon freaking explode should probably be Fire-type. That leaves animalistic attacks with teeth, claws, horns, and tails for my proposed Beast-type. Yes, that means transferring Bite and Crunch out of Dark into Beast, because honestly there isn't anything outright "dark" or "dirty" about biting your opponent versus punching them in the face. Sneak attacks and cheap shots are Dark, yes, but claws and teeth are just natural weapons. Growling, howling, and other such noises also belong in Beast, though moves based on intimidation like Leer and Glare could be justified in Ghost or Dark.

As for Beast's type relations? Well, since Beast covers ungulates as well as carnivores, it would make sense if Beast was effective against Grass. Beast could also be effective against Bug, as many beasts are insectivores. If Rock can be super-effective against Flying, Beast should too. And since beasts are pretty effective at killing each other (see: wolves hunting deer, or stags fighting over does), Beast can also be super-effective against itself. Rock and Steel resisting Beast makes sense, as does Ghost being immune to it. Conversely, Beast itself could be weak to Fire, Electric, Poison, and Steel, as fire burns animals, electricity can electrocute them, poison makes them sick, and steel weapons like guns are effective at killing them.

So, that's my "could have been, should have been" rant about what is, in my opinion, the most useless and confusing Type in all of Pokemon. Feel free to discuss, and have a nice day!

[Punished Dayni]

The thing about Normal type is it's actually pretty well balanced due to being regularly effective against most types and not being supereffective prevents a type from being run down by a type most every pokemon can access with at least a few of its stronger moves. Being a relatively neutral typing allows it a different niche from most types, though Fighting could be considered similar it has more resistances and supereffectives or how Ghost is unable to affect Normal (though the reverse is not true when using Foresight). Rebalancing some of the effectivenesses could be worth considering, but I think Normal as a type isn't much of an issue even if it is the result of a thought process on the game's development in the series's early years.

That being said I wouldn't say no to a beast type if it were well considered and balanced. Thought how it would retroactively affect other pokemon's up for debate, such as how it would impact birds of prey that are currently normal for instance. As for move changes, a reconsideration of current normal moves I think would be the even bigger mess imo, recategorising some of the moves would make for huge implications (Hyper Beam being Electric would change things for quite a few 'mons, not least of which it would have to be made inaccessible for some like most of the water types in the game). Hell, a consideration I'd add is Psychic type being able to manipluate these beast types quite easily, making them more effective or even maybe resistant.

But stop hurting my grass boys they've suffered enough.

[vanguard333]

But, then what about all the bird Pokémon that are Normal/Flying? Wouldn't they then have to be just Flying or something like that, as they aren't beasts?

[Emerson]

I don't have much to say on the actual topic itself, I think Beast type could be interesting but I feel Normal already fits the bill well enough given the whole point is it being unaspected, almost every non-Normal Pokemon learn Normal type moves, because they're... Normal. Just because Charmeleon isn't Normal type doesn't mean it can't do Normal things, Normal types just have some element of mundane-ness to them, such as Litleo/Pyroar. They do have some element of Fire to them, but externally it's only visually, where as something like Emboar has the Fire externally.

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

So, the Normal-Type. Basically the closest thing Pokemon has to a "neutral" type, except not really as it's weak to Fighting, resisted by Rock and Steel, immune to Ghost, and doesn't effect Ghost either. So, not a neutral type, just a sucky one with no Type advantages.

So, that's my "could have been, should have been" rant about what is, in my opinion, the most useless and confusing Type in all of Pokemon. Feel free to discuss, and have a nice day!

But this I need to heavily argue against. Normal is absolutely nowhere near a bad type to be. Seriously, 1 Weakness and 1 Immunity is really good and consistent. And while normal does lack any super-effectives, it also is only resisted by 2 types and immuned by 1, which makes it the most consistent neutral damage in the whole type chart besides Dragon, which is an amazing type on it's own entirely due to that and the type's mons typical high stats and coverage. And similarly to them, pure Normal types also have really good coverage, with many having access to Thunderbolt and other elemental moves. Honestly their real issue most of the time is a lack of stats holding them back, but as far as single player content goes, it's not a major issue.
While their STAB option lacks targets to hit for full ohkos without boosts, it's still extremely consistent and hard to switch into unless there's a Ghost on their team, and even then, plenty of Normal types learn Dark type moves, so even that isn't consistent.

[ZeManaphy]

Honestly, Normal is probably one of the most useless types. Offensively speaking, Normal hits nothing super effectively. So its useless unless its STAB. Flying is similar to Normal when it comes to offensive prowress in that they are resisted by Rock and Steel, but Flying hits Bug, Grass, and Fighting super effectively while being resisted by Electric. Normal can't touch Ghost either, so Flying is objectively better In terms of coverage since it hits types super effectively. The only thing that Normal has got going for it is an immunity to Ghost, which is admittably useful since Ghost is one of the best offensive types in the game, being tied with Dragon for best neutral coverage thanks to only having one resist and immunity. In fact, I'd argue that Ghost better since it hits more types super effectively than Dragon. That being said, the Ghost immunity can be easily given to something else, like Ice to make it better defensively. The only time Normal is actually good offensively is in Inverse Battles, because no type resists Normal in that said format.

7 hours ago, Emerson said:

nd similarly to them, pure Normal types also have really good coverage, with many having access to Thunderbolt and other elemental moves. Honestly their real issue most of the time is a lack of stats holding them back, but as far as single player content goes, it's not a major issue.

Good luck trying to take advantage of Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Ice Beam of Kangaskhan's, Raticate, and Purrulgy's moves with 40-60 base Sp.Atk.

Edited December 9, 2020 by ZeManaphy

[Lightcosmo]

Well, at least body slam was good in gen 1!

Honestly speaking, it's supposed to be basic, which is okay.

[Emerson]

28 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Good luck trying to take advantage of Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Ice Beam of Kangaskhan's, Raticate, and Purrulgy's moves with 40-60 base Sp.Atk.

As far as single player goes, that's honestly not that bad, it's still really good coverage despite the low stats and will definitely put in work. The x2 power from super-effectiveness isn't to be ignored.

As far as comp goes, they have enough coverage in other areas. While Raticate and Purugly lack Earthquake, a staple move for Normals due to Normal/Ground coverage hitting everything for at least neutral except for Steel/Flying and Rock/Flying, they do have a lower power alternative in Stomping Tantrum (Possibly High Horsepower in the future, although unknown due to them not existing in Gen 8 which has the TR), as well as plenty of other solid Physical coverage moves, albeit lacking in strong elemental ones usually, Wild Charge is about the best they usually get, mostly because Physical Fire/Electric/Ice moves just are rarely available outside their own type, and are rare in the first place.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Emerson

[ZeManaphy]

Just now, Emerson said:

As far as single player goes, that's honestly not that bad, it's still really good coverage and will definitely put in work.

As far as comp goes, they have enough coverage in other areas. While Raticate and Purugly lack Earthquake, a staple move for Normals due to Normal/Ground coverage hitting everything for at least neutral except for Steel/Flying and Rock/Flying, they do have a lower power alternative in Stomping Tantrum (Possibly High Horsepower in the future, although unknown due to them not existing in Gen 8 which has the TR), as well as plenty of other solid Physical coverage moves, albeit lacking in strong elemental ones usually, Wild Charge is about the best they usually get, mostly because Physical Fire/Electric/Ice moves just are rarely available outside their own type, and are rare in the first place.

True, but only Normal would use a combination of Normal/Ground. You would never see a Ground type use a normal type move unless it was STAB, most of Ground types prefer Rock since Rock resists the majority of types Ground Resists.

[eclipse]

Competitive: Not being able to hit weaknesses is a pain, along with being completely ineffective against Ghost.

In-game (which I swear someone cares about): They make for decent filler moves.  I throw them randomly on whichever team that's running through an area, because I don't have to think about weaknesses - instead, I just steamroll and move on with life.

I think a basic, boring type has its uses, even if it isn't for PvP.

Edited December 9, 2020 by eclipse

[Lord_Brand]

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Well, at least body slam was good in gen 1!

Honestly speaking, it's supposed to be basic, which is okay.

That's one of the Normal-type moves I'd change over to Fighting because, y'know, pro wrestling and all.

[Emerson]

2 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

True, but only Normal would use a combination of Normal/Ground. You would never see a Ground type use a normal type move unless it was STAB, most of Ground types prefer Rock since Rock resists the majority of types Ground Resists.

Sure, but I'm talking about the Mons, not their moves. Normal type moves are bad coverage, but so are Dragon type moves under most circumstances. Both have 1 immune and at least 1 resisted, and Dragon's only super effective on itself, which is suuuuper niche application, especially with the Fairy Immune has being way more common than Ghost Immune. What makes them strong is what the do WITH those moves, not necessarily the moves themselves. Dragon and Normal are kinda similar types in that way, where having the Moves without being that type typically doesn't give you too much (outside of Draco Meteor, which is usually an Event only thing on non-Dragons), but being said type can give you some very consistent damage output due to the type being relatively unresisted, combined with common coverage options.

So yes, no one uses Normal for coverage. But that doesn't make it a bad type to be. The same thing goes for Dragon. All things considered, the only difference between the two types is that Dragon types typically have much higher BSTs, but that doesn't necessarily stop some Normal types from being really good, and most are usually pretty solid picks for the competitive tier they reside in.

22 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

That's one of the Normal-type moves I'd change over to Fighting because, y'know, pro wrestling and all.

I'd like to point out that in Japanese, Body Slam is just called "Lean On", roughly. The implication is it's not really a practiced art, moreso just falling on top, or into, the opponent to deal damage. Not particularly fitting the Fighting type.
Oh, and I'll mention that Incineroar, the Pro Wrestling Pokemon, didn't even learn Body Slam until it became a TR in Gen 8 that like, half or more of the Dex learns. So I definitely don't think it's intended to be that. Flying Press is definitely supposed to though, considering the nature of Hawlucha. Which... also doesn't learn Body Slam.

[Lord_Brand]

Dragon is another type the necessity of which I debate. Like, I know Dragon-type just sounds cool and all, but most Dragon-Types could reasonably slot into another type, and most Dragon-Type moves could easily map to another Type. Twister? Flying. Dragonbreath? Fire. Dragon Claw? Heck, that'd probably be Beast under my system. I'm just not sure why Dragon has to be its own type. It's the coolest type bar none, sure, but is it really necessary? I mean, are we going to have Elf-Type or Goblin-Type next? What about Sphinx-Type? Or Angel-Type? (Actually, that one wouldn't be a bad substitute for a Light-Type, since when most people ask to add a Light-Type to the game, they really mean Holy-Type).

I'm just saying, were Normal changed over to Beast, Body Slam would probably work better as a Fighting-Type move than as Beast-Type. When I think of Body Slam in Pokemon, I think of a Snorlax leaping into the air to squash opponents flat. Which, yes, isn't really martial artsy enough to be Fighting per se, but isn't animalistic enough to be Beast-Type either.

See, that's my main hang-up, here: Beast feels like the perfect compliment to Fighting in so far as fighting like an animal versus fighting like a human. With Normal, it just feels like a mish-mash of animal and abstract.

Regarding Normal/Flying-Types, it's always possible they could be Flying/Beast-Types, but then again they could also be pure Flying-Types, and probably should, seeing as the rest of the types had no problem justifying Pokemon purely of that type. Like, what makes Pidgey or Spearow "Normal" compared to Tornadus or Rookidee?

[NegativeExponents-]

14 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

As for Beast's type relations? Well, since Beast covers ungulates as well as carnivores, it would make sense if Beast was effective against Grass. Beast could also be effective against Bug, as many beasts are insectivores

If you were trying to sell me on Beast types, this right here does the exact opposite of that. Grass and Bug are already pathetically weak. More so than Normal type. The last thing they need is yet another type that's super effective against them

14 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Beast itself could be weak to Fire, Electric, Poison, and Steel, as fire burns animals, electricity can electrocute them, poison makes them sick, and steel weapons like guns are effective at killing them.

Also, I feel like you gave them too many weaknesses. Like Normal type would have been a better defensive typing than this despite Beast type supposedly being an improvement.

Imo, Normal type is in a pretty good position. The only thing I would really consider for buffing them is giving them a super effectiveness against Dark types (like how it was supposed to be originally in Gold 97 spaceworld demo) and a resistance to Fairy type, since it's a phenomenal offensive typing which not many pokemon resist.

[Lightcosmo]

Normal in Pokemon means "simple"  Normal type Is easy to use and very flexible, i dont think that's bad in any way. I mean yeah they arent they greatest usually, but I think that's the intention? 

[Lord_Brand]

Most types are easy to use, though. The first types you use are Grass, Fire, and Water, and Bug and Flying are common in the early game. Rock, Ground, Poison, and Electric are also usually pretty easy to get. Normal is basically Fighting but worse save for the immunity to Ghosts. A Beast type could at least have more interesting interactions, and still be accessible in the early game as a companion to Bug and Flying.

I realize though that my proposed type relations might require a little work. Beast could at least SE itself since wolves, bears, and the like are effective at hunting other beasts. Beast could be mutually effective against Fighting as a rival type of sorts, as wild beasts and trained warriors can be dangerous to each other. Same for Flying, as birds and beasts regularly prey upon one another. I also maintain that Poison and Steel in particular should be effective against Beast.

As for moves like Hyper Beam? Well, maybe there could be some kind of Energy or Light Type to handle those kinds of moves. Maybe Normal could be split into two types, one that handles its physical aspects and one its special? Or they could make Hyper Beam a Fighting-Type move, since it's been getting more energy-based special attacks since the Ph/Sp split.

Even if they keep Normal as a "neutral" type with moves like Tackle and Pound, they could still consider introducing Beast and transferring a lot of those more animalistic moves - Scratch, Bite, Horn Attack, Tail Whip, Growl, Howl, Roar, etc. - over to Beast. The Legendary Beasts could then be part-Beast just as the Birds are part-Flying, and Pokemon such as Rattata, Meowth, Growlithe, Furret, Zigzagoon, Mightyena, Floatzel, Manectric, Litleo, and Lycanrock can either add Beast to their typing or switch to Beast altogether.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Lord_Brand