How much should I focus on skills in maddening mode?

[Sooks]

So I have recently begun my first not just messing around save file in maddening mode, on NG because I want that golden title screen. I have made it to chapter six and I find myself increasingly concerned that I’m not going for the “optimal” builds and that I’m wasting all my in game time, which could cause me to be stuck with weak sauce units who can’t progress late into the game.

Which brings me to the question of today’s thread, how essential are good skill sets and how much work should I put in? I at least plan to get death blow for my physical units, fiendish blow for my mages, and darting blow for everyone who is applicable, but then what? I’m just getting to intermediate tier so now is the time to ask, I feel. More questions: Are there any other classes that is really important to master? How much should I focus on getting skills from tutoring (as in going for certain skill ranks to get abilities)? I just want to make sure I can finish this run, and now is where I can really start shaping my units I feel. Thank you!

[Dark Holy Elf]

You've already figured out the most important class mastery skills. The others I'd mention are the repositioning combat arts from Beginner tier; I'm definitely a fan of having those on most units (particularly Reposition and Draw Back, though Shove/Swap are okay too, and Smite is an option for folks with armour talent).

The other main thing I'd think about is what battalion your units are going to end up with. I recommend consulting a battalion list to make sure you have enough battalions for the roles you want your characters to end up playing (in particular: do they fly or not, are you planning to optimize their evade, or defence, or neither, do you want to cover some support gambits like Retribution, etc.). It's not 100% necessary but it does help and is something people don't always think about (I certainly didn't back in my earliest runs of the game).

And if you're not doing Crimson Flower, make sure you've prepared for Reunion at Dawn.

Otherwise you should definitely be fine.

[LoneStar]

Yeah Death Blow and Fiendish Blow for their respective types of attackers is vital. You shouldn't go out of your way to get Darting Blow unless that character was already a Pegasus Knight mainly. The Maddening enemies are too fast for +6 AS to make the difference for units that weren't that fast to begin with. Usually you just equip training weapons to avoid getting doubled at times.

Technically Hit+20 covers what level 5 Prowess gives, or even better, unless you want a dodge tank. Usually I try to play "traditionally" and use the breakers to specifically counter certain enemies with certain units. Hit+20 can save you from using multiple Prowess skills, unless again you want to dodge stuff.

The skills from tutoring are niche and depends on the character. For example, if you're using Annette you want to get her Rallies. Some units have combat arts that might be good, like Lighting Axe from Annette.

Outside of that there generally isn't any reason to master other classes aside from the main endgame Advance and Master classes you have in mind. Sniper, Grappler, and War Master have their combat arts, so you want to get those ASAP. You could do some niche stuff like getting regular Vantage if you want to do a Wrath/Vantage set on someone, and Wrath stacks with Battalion Wrath or even Defiant Crit.

Edited March 18, 2021 by LoneStar

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The other main thing I'd think about is what battalion your units are going to end up with. I recommend consulting a battalion list to make sure you have enough battalions for the roles you want your characters to end up playing (in particular: do they fly or not, are you planning to optimize their evade, or defence, or neither, do you want to cover some support gambits like Retribution, etc.). It's not 100% necessary but it does help and is something people don't always think about (I certainly didn't back in my earliest runs of the game).

I’ll look into that, I’ve been training everyone in authority a bit because I knew gambits and battalions are broken but never really thought about any in particular.

Quote

And if you're not doing Crimson Flower, make sure you've prepared for Reunion at Dawn.

Otherwise you should definitely be fine.

I decided to be smart and pick the Eagles so that I could still try Reunion at Dawn on maddening and a longer route in general, but if I absolutely cannot handle it I can load a copied save and pick Crimson Flower instead and hopefully have an easier time.

Incidentally, how should I prepare for Reunion at Dawn? I’ve heard wyverns are important, so I’m training Petra, Ferdinand and Caspar to become them. Beyond that I’m just using the other Eagles (Bishop Linhardt and Dancer Dorothea definitely, maybe Bow Knight Bernie? Bow Knight is pretty good, and I have mostly been having her use bows just for the range and her boons).

Edited March 17, 2021 by Sooks

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, LoneStar said:

Technically Hit+20 covers what level 5 Prowess gives, or even better, unless you want a dodge tank. Usually I try to play "traditionally" and use the breakers to specifically counter certain enemies with certain units. Hit+20 can save you from using multiple Prowess skills, unless again you want to dodge stuff.

I'd say this depends if you plan on taking many hits, as well as your luck stat. Lacking a Prowess means you miss out on 10 critical avoid and that will mean many enemies potentially have crit against you. If you're using a character you don't intend on getting hit anyway, this might not matter, of course, though I still usually set Prowess because it's just plain easier to get than Hit+20%.

4 hours ago, Sooks said:

Incidentally, how should I prepare for Reunion at Dawn? I’ve heard wyverns are important, so I’m training Petra, Ferdinand and Caspar to become them. Beyond that I’m just using the other Eagles (Bishop Linhardt and Dancer Dorothea definitely, maybe Bow Knight Bernie? Bow Knight is pretty good, and I have mostly been having her use bows just for the range and her boons).

The first thing you need to know about Reunion at Dawn is that only the characters who join on the west side matter. Surviving those first few turns is key; once you proceed far enough for the east-side joiners to appear you've already won. For Silver Snow the west-side joiners are Seteth, Dorothea, Caspar, and Petra. As you note, having one or more of them be a flier is a help. So is having your Dancer from that group. Make sure they all have good accessories/battalions. For instance if Dorothea is your only mage she in that group, she should have Caduceus and/or Thyrsus for that fight, and probably a Healing Staff too, and I'd set either Sword Avoid or White Magic Avoid in case she needs to dodgetank. Your March Ring (and/or Fetters of Dromi if you get that) should be on someone from this group. Leave as few important accessories as possible on anyone else at the end of Chapter 12. I feel like if you have Wyvern Petra, Wyvern Caspar, Dancer Dorothea, and a decently competent Byleth, all with good battalions and accessories, you should be fine.

My own strategy for that fight the one time I did it involved Assassin Dorothea and Dancer Caspar which really tore the fight apart but both of those builds are basically optimized for that fight only and aren't necessarily wonderful choices elsewhere; I suspect what you're doing works fine too.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

27 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say this depends if you plan on taking many hits, as well as your luck stat. Lacking a Prowess means you miss out on 10 critical avoid and that will mean many enemies potentially have crit against you. If you're using a character you don't intend on getting hit anyway, this might not matter, of course, though I still usually set Prowess because it's just plain easier to get than Hit+20%.

Honestly, get both. Hit-stacking is hardly a bad idea, especially on Maddening Mode. I like to keep each unit specialized in one weapon type, with the Prowess skill, a Breaker skill, and Hit +20 (if earned through Archer).

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You've already figured out the most important class mastery skills. The others I'd mention are the repositioning combat arts from Beginner tier; I'm definitely a fan of having those on most units (particularly Reposition and Draw Back, though Shove/Swap are okay too, and Smite is an option for folks with armour talent).

The repositionals are great, especially on mounted units. And honestly, I find the stat boost skills to be solid too. I've found a use for Strength +2 and Magic +2 up until the very end of the game. They're boring skills, but they're effective and reliable.

7 hours ago, Sooks said:

Are there any other classes that is really important to master? How much should I focus on getting skills from tutoring (as in going for certain skill ranks to get abilities)?

At the Advanced Tier, Sniper and Grappler are great masteries, for their class combat arts. Warlock is kinda nice for Bowbreaker. Wrath from Warrior can have its uses. The rest are pretty meh.

Do you have the DLC? Trickster's Foul Play is locked behind class mastery, while Valkyrie can get a nice hit boost, from Uncanny Blow.

As for Master classes, War Master is the most notable, for granting a unique art, and Quick Riposte. Defiant Avoid (Falcoknight) otlr Crit (Wyvern Lord) can also be cool on certain builds. You're not likely to have much time to play with these ones, though.

6 hours ago, LoneStar said:

The skills from tutoring are niche and depends on the character. For example, if you're using Annette you want to get her Rallies. Some units have combat arts that might be good, like Lighting Axe from Annette.

Ignatz is another good rallybot! Although, once each has gotten their second rally (discounting Annette's personal skill), the third doesn't come until S-rank. So that's a tough sell.

Other combat arts that I would definitely consider "worth it" include Point-Blank Volley (Bows: C+ Cyril, A Leonie), Swift Strikes (Lances: A Ferdinand, Sylvain, Seteth), and One-Two Punch (Brawling: C+ Dedue, Alois).

As for universal skills - if I'm raising a unit in Riding, I like to get them to A+ for Movement +1. And if I want someone to dodgetank, raising the Flight level for Alert Stance can be crucial.

4 hours ago, Sooks said:

Incidentally, how should I prepare for Reunion at Dawn? I’ve heard wyverns are important, so I’m training Petra, Ferdinand and Caspar to become them. Beyond that I’m just using the other Eagles (Bishop Linhardt and Dancer Dorothea definitely, maybe Bow Knight Bernie? Bow Knight is pretty good, and I have mostly been having her use bows just for the range and her boons).

As dumb as this sounds, make sure Seteth is in Wyvern Rider, and has a good flying battakion equipped. I messed up, by taking his battalion away. But at least I made sure he wasn't a Brigand going into that map. That would have been torture.

For the record, I haven't beaten Maddening on NG (just NG+), so a lot of this is more theory than practice. Wishing you luck, though!

[Sooks]

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Make sure they all have good accessories/battalions.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

and has a good flying battakion equipped.

What defines a good battalion for you?

[SumG]

I think you've covered the biggest ones, but I'd make point a out a few other small things to pay attention to if you have the time.  As others have mentioned, Hit+20 is nice for units that can get it easily, but not essential.  For example, it would be worthwhile for Claude to get before moving into his unique classes, but I wouldn't bother getting it on a Wyvern Lord.  Most fliers benefit significantly from Alert Stance/Alert Stance+, and you may want to consider prioritizing the ability in tutoring after you get your class qualifications handled.  Assassinate can OK in the midgame on some units, but typically gets outclassed by other abilities in the endgame.  Quick Riposte is extremely strong, but the class requirements are so severe that it's not worth getting on a non-gauntlet user.  But it can single-handedly make otherwise weak units viable on Maddening.

One important note to bear in mind on Maddening is that it is entirely feasible to get to S/S+ weapon proficiency with your primary weapons by the endgame.  There are some extremely strong abilities at those levels (Black/Dark Magic Range+1, X-faire abilities), so you want to be working towards those whenever you can.  Typically that just means focusing on one weapon class per unit and that you keep your primary weapon as one of your tutor slots until it's maxed out unless you have an extremely ambitious build.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

49 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What defines a good battalion for you?

A significant stat boost, and/or a good gambit. For Seteth, for instance, Cichol Wyvern Co (+7 Attack, +15 Hit/Crit, +10 Charm, Assault Troop) will be ideal if you get him to A Authority. If not, Galatea Pegasus Co (+7 Attack, +5 Hit, +8 Charm, Lure) will do alright. If you have neither, just give him a C- or D- rank flying battalion.

Other good battalions are those that offer support gambits. Such as Stride from Seiros Holy Monks, or Gautier Knights. Empire Armored Co grants Impregnable Wall, while Indech Sword Fighters give Retribution. Black Eagles don't get as many good support gambits as Blue Lions, unfortunately. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Almost every battalion granted from a paralogue is good, as are a few others (such as Black Eagle Pegasus); @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate's largely covered it.

The flying battalions are in particular ones you should be aware of, since it sounds like you might have 3 or 4 fliers. Cichol Wyverns (A), Galatea Pegasus (B), and Black Eagle Pegasus (A) are the probably the overall three best available on the Black Eagles routes. Black Eagle Pegasus has Retribution in place of an offensive gambit so I recommend giving it to the flier who has the lowest charm, unless they particularly want to receive Retribution themselves or may have trouble reaching A authority (unfortunately, Caspar would be a great fit if not for that last part). Empire Elite Wyverns (A) is decent enough for a fourth (high atk, but other stats aren't great and requires an A), or Empire Pegasus (C) if you have more trouble raising authority and/or would prefer some hit over power.

4 hours ago, SumG said:

One important note to bear in mind on Maddening is that it is entirely feasible to get to S/S+ weapon proficiency with your primary weapons by the endgame.  There are some extremely strong abilities at those levels (Black/Dark Magic Range+1, X-faire abilities), so you want to be working towards those whenever you can. 

The S and S+ requirements are quite different (something like 1000 exp apart, I forget the exact number offhand). For S, I completely agree with you - Range+1 as well as Alert Stance+ and Move+1 are well worth picking up. S+ is more of a slog, especially on Silver Snow which has one less month than Azure Moon or Verdant Wind. I don't usually bother with S+ myself, though it's possible as you note. Don't even consider it if you don't have a boon in the skill, though.

[Barren]

You can even combine two of the same weaponfaires so they can stack. For example: if you have S+ in lances, and one of your girls is a Falcon Knight, then they get +10 damage in lances. The +5 is thanks to their class ability and another +5 since lancefaire can also be a standard ability.

Likewise, you can take that similar idea and bring it to Wyvern Lord. Wyvern Lord already has Axefaire but you can still give it lancefaire as well though as a standard ability like I mentioned above.

[hdawgsizzle]

You've already singled out the most important skills IMO (Death Blow, Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow), so that's a great start. Darting Blow is probably the least necessary of the three - I don't bother unless that unit is already going through Pegasus Knight - but absolutely pick up the other two on the other units for sure. 

I pretty much always have Lv 5 Prowess equipped, but @LoneStar made a great case for Hit +20, especially if the units are using multiple weapons. When I played through Maddening I pretty much just kept each unit to one weapon type and therefore only had one prowess skill (Lysithea had both Lv 5 Faith and Lv 5 Reason but she was the only one and I also didn't find that it came at the cost of any better skills). 

With the flying characters I usually run roughly the same skill set that I've found extremely successful: Lv5 Prowess, Alert Stance+, Death Blow, Darting Blow, Weaponfaire. Simple strategy: move the unit into enemy range, dodgetank during enemy phase with the combined prowess and alert stance+ evasion bonuses, use the blow skills to kill on the next player phase. Not every character is going to be able to get all of those skills and so there are some other good skills to fill the voids. Getting to S+ for Weaponfaires is pretty difficult with a lot of units, esp. units that also need flying/riding proficiency, so that's usually an open slot. Weapon Crit +10 can be a good option if you can get to S, Hit+20 can be really helpful if a unit has crap accuracy (e.g. Hilda)... Claude is a good example of where I used a similar but slightly altered skill set: Lv. 5 Bow, Alert Stance+, Death Blow, Hit+20, Close Counter. The extra Hit+20 helps for units like Claude and Bow Knights who have extended range but also accuracy penalties. Close Counter is also great for bow users who can take a hit on enemy phase (e.g. Claude, Leonie, Felix etc, not units like Ignatz, Bernie, Ashe, etc.)

Byleth definitely should be able to get their weaponfaire (except Crimson Flower). You have so much extra monastery time towards the end of the game that you can pretty easily get to S+ in any weapon you want, so long as you only focus on one weapon type. This is especially true if you save scum for "excellent"s when receiving tutoring from Seteth/Catherine/Shamir, etc. Other than Byleth it's pretty hard to get to S+ with a lot of units. I had a very easy time with Sniper!Ignatz (he got the extra Bowfaire around Ch. 17) and so it's definitely more possible with units that focus solely on one weapon type and aren't mounted, and Ignatz was especially fast because of the authority boon meaning I didn't have to tutor him as much either. Lysithea also has a pretty easy time getting Dark Tomefaire if you start focusing entirely on Reason after getting to Lv. 5 Faith (she has the personal skill that increases weapon exp). I should note this was my experience with them on Golden Deer, so it would be a bit harder if recruited to another house.

Some other good skills:

-Weapon Crit +10 can be kinda nice. It doesn't always make a huge difference, but there are definitely worse options. For Sniper!Ignatz I ran Lv. 5 Bow Prowess, Death Blow, Bowfaire, Bow Crit +10, Hit+20, and when I used Hunter's Volley I'd regularly see 80% chance of a critical. I was kinda worried about his low str growth but +5 attack from bowfaire, +5 attack from the sniper class's bowfaire, +6 attack from death blow, +1 attack from Hunter's Volley, +3 attack from Raphael's adjutant... all multiplied by 2... that's an extra 40 damage even before the 80% chance of a crit. Snipers are absolutely busted in this game. Weapon Crit +10 is also usually pretty good for anyone with brawling (or anyone primarily using brave weapons, I guess) since there's more chances for it to work in your favor. I liked running it on War Master!Felix since between the extra crit chance and his crest activation, he was almost always doing some form of extra damage.

-Hit+20 again is super helpful for a lot of units and is maybe the only skill other than the blow skills that i'd go out of my way for. The extra 20 accuracy also affects your gambit hit rate which helped me a lot in the early game.

-Movement +1 is very helpful for anyone on a horse and isn't super difficult to get for anyone who is on a horse most of the game. It's a very nice skill to put on a dancer, but that's also a much harder task. I was able to do it with Marianne since she has a riding boon. 

-Special Dance is super important for Dancers and stacks with other buffs. Dancers should be able to get the skill pretty naturally

-Magic Range +1 is super helpful on maddening since you don't want your mages to take hits. Attacking from out of range is one of the few ways to get reliable chip damage

-The Weight Minus skills are okay. I'm not sure it's worth investing all the way for Weight -5, because that's a lot of extra tutoring that can usually go somewhere more useful. I ran Weight -3 on Felix since it wasn't that hard to get and it helped me feel better about the awful +6 weight that comes with his personal shield

-Quick Riposte is an amazing skill but has really stiff requirements (mastering War Master) so it's not worth going out of the way for IMO. That being said, some of the slower units (e.g. Raphael, Dedue, maybe even Caspar) seem as if they are specifically built with the intention of eventually using Quick Riposte. One thing I've heard of people doing but haven't tried myself is mastering War Master and then moving back to grappler for Fierce Iron Fist. I kinda like War Master's extra Crit +20, but I suppose the choice depends on the unit (I would keep Felix in War Master but move a slower unit like Raphael back to Grappler).

-Aegis is... fine. It's something you can use to fill a skill slot.

-+2 Skills e.g. Str +2, Magic +2, etc. can also be used to fill a skill slot. 

-Rallies - can be super useful but I've never actually gone out of my way to make a rally bot in 3H. Others can probably attest to the benefits more than I can

Those are the skills that I ran when I played Golden Deer Maddening. I haven't messed around with stuff like battalion vantage, battalion wrath, etc., and i haven't tried any of the DLC skills (the two blow skills seem decent...). I've found simple skill builds very effective, so I wouldn't stress out too much about trying to make any ultra complex skill builds or anything. A Lv. 5 Prowess skill and Death Blow alone is already a great start.

Apart from skills, the real big game changer is your combat arts. The most important are Hunter's Volley, which only Sniper's can use, Swift Strikes, which Ferdinand and Seteth can use (and Sylvain), and kinda sorta the aforementioned Fierce Iron Fist, which grapplers can use. All of these combat arts are a great way to make sure you kill the enemy before they can kill you, and they can also be incredibly effective at taking down the monsters. These combat arts can help some of your slower units keep pace with faster units who may be able to double. Brave weapons are also great at making sure you can get enough damage in before taking a hit in retaliation. I saw that you said you were planning on training Ferdinand to become a Wyvern. He makes a fine Wyvern but I would caution against it slightly, since he really wants to use Swift Strikes (which is a lance combat art) and even if you use lances as a Wyvern, that's losing 10 damage by not having Lancefaire. A lancefaire class like a Paladin is what I typically prefer. This will also help distinguish him from Seteth who will probably end up as another wyvern who uses lances and Swift Strikes. 

Also I'll just give a quick plug for Falcon Knights. I know you said that you're training some units to be wyverns, but falcon knights are a really great class as well if you're looking for fliers.  Falcon Knight!Byleth is the best unit I've used across three runs so far.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, hdawgsizzle said:

He makes a fine Wyvern but I would caution against it slightly, since he really wants to use Swift Strikes (which is a lance combat art) and even if you use lances as a Wyvern, that's losing 10 damage by not having Lancefaire

It's actually only 6 less, because Wyvern Lord has higher strength than Paladin. Still noteworthy of course.

That said I personally prefer Wyvern because Ferdinand wants to get Alert Stance+ (his personal makes him one of the best dodgetanks), and being in a flying class helps him get it faster. I also like wyverns just generally better than paladins; 3H has a lot of terrain which really slows paladins down, and due to their lower speed (both the modifier and the growth), they're much more likely to be doubled by mid-speed enemies which impacts their durability significantly.

[Barren]

I also second what @hdawgsizzle said about Byleth being a Falcon Knight. She was excellent on my Golden Deer maddening run. I even kept a save file for the final boss incase if I were to ever revisit it. I’ve used niche skills that I managed to make work like Defiant Avoid and Sacred Power thanks to mastering the Enlightened One class.

To give you an idea, she had the Cursed Ashiya Sword equipped in addition to alert stance + and defiant avoid. With sword prowess mixed in since it offered high avoid when maxed out, the assassins had like a 0 - 1 % chance of hitting me when they try to attack me normally. It’s insane how much avoid you can stack on one unit.

Sacred Power I used on another mission where Claude was able to do extra damage thanks to their support being very high. The Plus 3 attack in addition to another 3 attack gave Claude a Plus 6 on enemy phase. 12 if you count player phase and Death Blow. Only thing about Sacred Power is that it works with adjacent allies.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Barren

[Marienburg]

You can finish maddening without doing anything special with skills. I'd argue it's more important to make sure your characters get their good combat arts, eg Ashe and Caspar are bad until they get hunter's volley and FIF, at which point they become pretty good.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, hdawgsizzle said:

-Rallies - can be super useful but I've never actually gone out of my way to make a rally bot in 3H. Others can probably attest to the benefits more than I can

I like them on Annette (innate Rally Str, learned Res, Spd, Mov) and Ignatz (learned Rally Spd, Dex, Str), with the caveat that I didn't get either one to S Authority, for their third-and-final-rally. It's doable, but I preferred to work on their class ranks, and they can do fine from C+ Authority. A boost of 4/8 doesn't sound like it'll scale well, but it can still have its uses. 4 extra strength, with a brave art, is 8 extra damage. Or with a crit build, 12 extra damage. The other "rallybot", Hubert (Rally Mag, Res, Spd) isn't as impressive, IMO.

Rally Charm units (i.e. Dorothea, Manuela) can also be useful, in setting up a gambit (or preventing a low-Charm ally from being gambited). Alois is also notable, for combining innate Rally Luck with Rally Str. Whereas, Seteth's Rally Def could help set up a physical tank to bait enemies.