Comparing Base stats between Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn

[Jotari]

So I have productive things I should be doing, which means it's time for me to do one of my favourite procrastinating activities, which is to mess around with Fire Emblem stuff on spread sheets. This time I'm comparing the base stats between characters in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. They went to the effort of making a whole extra tier in Radiant Dawn so it wouldn't be weird if the characters were weaker than they were in the previous game, let's see how that actually played out. This is the result. The numbers denote the difference in stats, while the colours are just a handy guide to display whether the stats went up or down between games (am I the only one who cares about stuff like this?).So at a first glance you'll see character stats mostly improved. At least among the Beorc. The change of system in which stats work for Laguz meant a lot of them are significantly weaker in Radiant Dawn than they were in Path of Radiance, at least while untransformed.

Name	Lv	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Mov	Con	Wt
Ike	30	25	19	1	22	16	8	16	7	1	3	4
Titania	15	3	13	6	9	7	8	9	7	0	0	2
Oscar	29	12	14	6	16	14	13	9	13	1	1	3
Boyd	26	15	15	1	16	12	9	10	8	1	2	3
Rhys	19	5	8	13	8	9	13	7	10	1	1	1
Shinon	12	11	12	1	13	11	6	11	8	0	1	1
Gatrie	21	13	13	5	12	15	10	10	11	1	1	7
Soren	24	10	9	17	13	10	6	7	14	1	0	0
Mia	21	13	10	5	16	15	12	6	6	1	1	1
Ilyana	6	2	5	4	2	4	0	0	-1	0	0	0
Marcia	20	14	8	6	10	9	8	8	9	1	1	1
Mist	20	12	7	9	9	8	10	5	9	2	0	0
Rolf	20	14	12	3	12	13	9	7	7	1	2	3
Lethe	18	17	0	8	12	9	3	4	10	0	-10	10
Mordecai	14	16	6	0	6	7	5	16	1	0	-5	15
Volke	43	27	18	5	23	22	12	19	19	0	0	0
Kieran	19	11	10	5	10	8	8	8	10	1	1	3
Brom	14	8	9	3	8	9	9	8	7	1	-2	4
Nephenee	14	10	7	4	9	9	6	6	11	1	-1	2
Zihark	13	5	7	5	9	8	5	6	11	1	2	1
Jill	6	0	0	1	2	6	8	2	1	0	0	1
Sothe	20	15	13	3	13	9	10	10	9	0	2	2
Astrid	21	13	7	6	10	8	14	5	10	1	0	2
Makalov	17	7	9	3	10	8	12	7	7	1	0	2
Stefan	20	15	8	-1	10	11	15	9	7	0	0	0
Muarim	10	13	13	2	11	4	1	15	10	0	-5	15
Tormod	18	14	11	7	7	11	6	8	5	1	1	1
Devdan	25	3	3	1	8	8	2	4	2	0	0	2
Tanith	6	3	4	0	3	-1	4	4	7	0	0	-1
Reyson	12	18	5	-5	-4	4	16	9	9	0	0	4
Janaff	21	18	13	-1	18	4	14	9	4	1	-10	1
Ulki	21	18	7	2	15	21	15	4	9	1	0	10
Calill	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	10	9
Tauroneo	0	-10	2	1	4	7	4	-1	1	0	1	6
Ranulf	17	9	3	8	11	10	10	4	11	0	-10	10
Haar	0	-1	2	-6	5	3	1	3	-3	0	-1	0
Lucia	2	2	3	-2	6	4	3	4	7	0	0	0
Bastian	17	10	9	16	6	8	6	8	12	0	0	0
Geoffrey	4	-6	6	-1	6	1	7	-3	6	0	0	1
Largo	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA
Elincia	20	9	10	22	26	26	14	25	33	0	0	0
Ena	12	7	-5	21	5	3	4	-1	8	0	0	33
Nasir	16	18	-16	37	-2	-9	2	-5	10	0	-1	58
Tibarn	13	5	10	-7	12	13	5	2	-1	2	4	14
Naesala	10	3	4	-2	10	7	1	2	8	1	1	10
Giffca	16	5	2	-2	12	8	6	10	3	0	-5	10
Oliver	26	16	16	22	8	8	3	8	12	0	2	2
Renning	17	7	9	-1	7	7	14	2	4	0	0	2
Black Knight	20	10	8	1	10	3	9	5	3	0	0	7
Leanne	4	5	0	-9	-12	-7	20	1	-12	0	0	0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D0bStfiWDJoNTUNZ4crF7cOIQ9H8GZ6qBhL7ulty6NY/edit?usp=sharing

So just some random notes of interest. Every character went up in terms of levels with the exception of Tauroneo, Calil and Haar, so if you're wondering who the "canonical" bench warmers who got no exp in Path of Radiance are, it's those three.

Calil is by far the most consistent character between the two games, having near identical stats, she only gained one point of Str and 3 points of Def. I guess canonically Ike didn't deploy her at all.

Unsurprisingly, if you think about it, the character that improved the most was Volke, jumping up by almost 20 points in every category (so Volke was really leaning into that whole "I'm not an assassin" schitck). After him in second place is Ike and then, somewhat surprisingly, Oscar.

The following are all the Beorc who got weaker in some stat during the time skip.

*Ilyana managed to lose one point of res.

*Brom lost 2 points of con

*Nephenee lost 1 point of con

*Stefan lost one point of magic (oh no, what a tragedy!)

*Tanith lost one point of speed, she also managed to lose one point of weight (guess she must have went on a diet)

*Tauroneo takes the prize for the largest single stat reduction amoung Beorc, losing a whopping 10 points of HP (and also one point of Defense). Old age must be hitting him hard.

*Despite his reputation in Radiant Dawn as an absolute beast, Haar actually matches Tauroneo in stats lost, losing 1HP, 6 Magic, 3 Resistance and 1 Con. I know half of that is him dropping a magic stat (it was probably only inordinately high for potential bolt axe use in PoR), but it's still funny that Haar actually has such a large stat reduction compared to Path of Radiance. Over all, totaling all his stats, he only actually gained 3 points (the smallest difference of all Beorc, though his stat range is still more different than Calil's, since he gains and loses in different stats while Callil remains almost completely the same). I guess join time makes all the difference.

*Geoffrey also loses some stats that actually matter, 6HP, 1 Magic and 3 Defense.

 

 

I guess the next task would be to get the averages of Path of Radiance units at the level in which they join in Radiant Dawn and see how their growths match. And I guess I've also obligated myself to do this for Shadow Dragon and New Mystery at some point.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Fascinating.

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And I guess I've also obligated myself to do this for Shadow Dragon and New Mystery at some point.

I doubt there'll be much to glimpse out of that one. The Tellius duology was aiming to maintain a sense of progression between its two works, unlike Archanea which is more dictated to the gameplay side of things.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So just some random notes of interest. Every character went up in terms of levels with the exception of Tauroneo, Calil and Haar, so if you're wondering who the "canonical" bench warmers who got no exp in Path of Radiance are, it's those three.

Well, naturally Haar just slept through the rest of the war. lol

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Devdan

25

3

3

1

8

8

2

4

2

0

0

2

What's he doing here? It's Danved who shows up in RD, not Devdan!

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

What's he doing here? It's Danved who shows up in RD, not Devdan!

Whoops. My bad. Their names are quite similar!

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

So at a first glance you'll see character stats mostly improved. At least among the Beorc. The change of system in which stats work for Laguz meant a lot of them are significantly weaker in Radiant Dawn than they were in Path of Radiance, at least while untransformed.

The change in system undermines any meaningful comparison between laguz bases (outside of Level, HP, and Luck). What I think would be more instructive to see is, how do their transformed stats compare at base? Like, Lethe with her Path of Radiance bonuses, versus Lethe with her Radiant Dawn bonuses? Especially in the case of the Laguz Royals, who don't need to worry about meter management.

Anyway, I like the concept in general! Pretty interesting to see that Ilyana, Jill, and Calill look to be the least changed. Basically, if you're a lady with "il" in your name, don't expect to change much between the wars. Although even then, it could be argued that they "backslid" in other ways. Calill loses access to Knives (and gains an opportunity to access Staves), Ilyana only remembers how to use Thunder tomes, and Jill hangs up her Lance, at least until she promotes.

Unsurprisingly, the stat that looks to vary the least is Mov. Most units rejoin with the same Mov they had before, or with 1 extra Mov because they promoted, or for Bird laguz, because their class got more Mov. Only Tibarn (10 Mov transformed bitches!) and Mist gain 2 points. It's impressive how much Mist still sucks, given that "5 Mov Stafflock" to "7 Mov Staff/Sword hybrid" is an undeniable glow-up.

[vanguard333]

I read the title and thought this would be a comparison between the bases (as in the shops, base conversations, etc.), not the characters' base stats.

[Acacia Sgt]

Ngl, that's what I thought first too. XD

[vanguard333]

28 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Ngl, that's what I thought first too. XD

Perhaps @Jotari should change the title from "comparing bases" to "comparing base stats" to make it more clear.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The change in system undermines any meaningful comparison between laguz bases (outside of Level, HP, and Luck). What I think would be more instructive to see is, how do their transformed stats compare at base? Like, Lethe with her Path of Radiance bonuses, versus Lethe with her Radiant Dawn bonuses? Especially in the case of the Laguz Royals, who don't need to worry about meter management.

Yeah, that would undeniably be the better way to compare Laguz, but all the lists of base stats for them just give raw bases, so hunting down the different promotion bonuses would be a bit of a pain. Well, it wouldn't be that hard for Radiant Dawn as it would just involve multiplying everything but luck, hp and level by 2. But Path of Radiance (I think) varys from class to class, if not unit to unit.

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I read the title and thought this would be a comparison between the bases (as in the shops, base conversations, etc.), not the characters' base stats.

That...didn't occur to me at all. Huh, I thought bases was pretty common lingo for Fire Emblem. Welp, changed for clarity.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Jotari

[vanguard333]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

That...didn't occur to me at all. Huh, I thought bases was pretty common lingo for Fire Emblem. Welp, changed for clarity.

To be fair, it probably would've been perfectly clear if you were talking about any pair of Fire Emblem games other than Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn: the two that happened to have base mechanics.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

To be fair, it probably would've been perfectly clear if you were talking about any pair of Fire Emblem games other than Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn: the two that happened to have base mechanics.

True XD

19 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Unsurprisingly, the stat that looks to vary the least is Mov. Most units rejoin with the same Mov they had before, or with 1 extra Mov because they promoted, or for Bird laguz, because their class got more Mov. Only Tibarn (10 Mov transformed bitches!) and Mist gain 2 points. It's impressive how much Mist still sucks, given that "5 Mov Stafflock" to "7 Mov Staff/Sword hybrid" is an undeniable glow-up.

Going back to this, Con actually seems to be the stat that varied the least. At least in terms of how many 0s pop up on the chart, they are slightly more willing to increase con by 2 or even deduce Con. Though the very fact that Con even exists in Tellius kind of confuses me. Weight already exists, and it's not like they even use either of them for Atk Speed reduction off set >.>. I guess it's for all that shoving and rescue interplay with mounted units or something, but it definitely seems redundant to have both stats in the same game.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Jotari

[Jotari]

Okay, since I obviously have nothing better to do, I ammended it with Laguz using their transformed stats. I think I got everything right.

Name	Lv	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Mov	Con	Wt
Ike	30	25	19	1	22	16	8	16	7	1	3	4
Titania	15	3	13	6	9	7	8	9	7	0	0	2
Oscar	29	12	14	6	16	14	13	9	13	1	1	3
Boyd	26	15	15	1	16	12	9	10	8	1	2	3
Rhys	19	5	8	13	8	9	13	7	10	1	1	1
Shinon	12	11	12	1	13	11	6	11	8	0	1	1
Gatrie	21	13	13	5	12	15	10	10	11	1	1	7
Soren	24	10	9	17	13	10	6	7	14	1	0	0
Mia	21	13	10	5	16	15	12	6	6	1	1	1
Ilyana	6	2	5	4	2	4	0	0	-1	0	0	0
Marcia	20	14	8	6	10	9	8	8	9	1	1	1
Mist	20	12	7	9	9	8	10	5	9	2	0	0
Rolf	20	14	12	3	12	13	9	7	7	1	2	3
Lethe	18	17	0	8	12	9	3	4	10	0	-10	10
Mordecai	14	16	6	0	6	7	5	16	1	0	-5	15
Volke	43	27	18	5	23	22	12	19	19	0	0	0
Kieran	19	11	10	5	10	8	8	8	10	1	1	3
Brom	14	8	9	3	8	9	9	8	7	1	-2	4
Nephenee	14	10	7	4	9	9	6	6	11	1	-1	2
Zihark	13	5	7	5	9	8	5	6	11	1	2	1
Jill	6	0	0	1	2	6	8	2	1	0	0	1
Sothe	20	15	13	3	13	9	10	10	9	0	2	2
Astrid	21	13	7	6	10	8	14	5	10	1	0	2
Makalov	17	7	9	3	10	8	12	7	7	1	0	2
Stefan	20	15	8	-1	10	11	15	9	7	0	0	0
Muarim	10	13	13	2	11	4	1	15	10	0	-5	15
Tormod	18	14	11	7	7	11	6	8	5	1	1	1
Devdan	25	3	3	1	8	8	2	4	2	0	0	2
Tanith	6	3	4	0	3	-1	4	4	7	0	0	-1
Reyson	12	18	5	-5	-4	4	16	9	9	0	0	4
Janaff	21	18	13	-1	18	4	14	9	4	1	-10	1
Ulki	21	18	7	2	15	21	15	4	9	1	0	10
Calill	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	10	9
Tauroneo	0	-10	2	1	4	7	4	-1	1	0	1	6
Ranulf	17	9	3	8	11	10	10	4	11	0	-10	10
Haar	0	-1	2	-6	5	3	1	3	-3	0	-1	0
Lucia	2	2	3	-2	6	4	3	4	7	0	0	0
Bastian	17	10	9	16	6	8	6	8	12	0	0	0
Geoffrey	4	-6	6	-1	6	1	7	-3	6	0	0	1
Largo	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA
Elincia	20	9	10	22	26	26	14	25	33	0	0	0
Ena	12	7	-5	21	5	3	4	-1	8	0	0	33
Nasir	16	18	-16	37	-2	-9	2	-5	10	0	-1	58
Tibarn	13	5	10	-7	12	13	5	2	-1	2	4	14
Naesala	10	3	4	-2	10	7	1	2	8	1	1	10
Giffca	16	5	2	-2	12	8	6	10	3	0	-5	10
Oliver	26	16	16	22	8	8	3	8	12	0	2	2
Renning	17	7	9	-1	7	7	14	2	4	0	0	2
Black Knight	20	10	8	1	10	3	9	5	3	0	0	7
Leanne	4	5	0	-9	-12	-7	20	1	-12	0	0	0

I left Leanne untransformed since she never has a chance to transform in Path of Radiance.

The most notable thing is that Ena actually loses strength, which seems really weird. Nasir also loses a bunch of strength but that's because he's shifted to using his magic stat.

This has taught me Con and Weight stats are freaking crazy in Radiant Dawn. Nasir gains +57 weight when he transforms and I have no idea why.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Okay, since I obviously have nothing better to do, I ammended it with Laguz using their transformed stats. I think I got everything right.

Ooh, this looks good. I was gonna compare it to the original, but it looks like you overwrote it in the OP? Anyway, most Laguz are stronger in RD (numerically), but it makes sense, they're at higher levels and have tougher enemies to face. Lethe having no more Strength after 18 levels, though, is... not the best look, to put it mildly. 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

The most notable thing is that Ena actually loses strength, which seems really weight. Nasir also loses a bunch of strength but that's because he's shifted to using his magic stat

Gareth: "Hey, Nasir. Didn't you say something about usin' Magic now, 'stead of physical damage?"

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

This has taught me Con and Weight stats are freaking crazy in Radiant Dawn. Nasir gains +57 weight when he transforms and I have no idea why.

Dragons fat.

Having both Con and Weight in Tellius really feels like stat bloat. They could've figured out Shoving and Rescuing from a single stat. Also, "Unit Weight" is just confusing in a game where "Weapon Weight" exists, and is totally unrelated.