You must pick one character to give Knight as their Heart Seal class

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:45 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Re: Benny

I think people have already basically brought up why he doesn't really need Wary Fighter. Against fast enemies, he's usually taking such little damage that he doesn't need to avoid getting doubled. It actually makes his guard gauge build slower, so it's not really a strict advantage.

If fast and weak enemies were all the game had, then maybe, but he's doubled by pretty much everything. That's problematic, and it isn't like he's so durable that he's shrugging off everything. Also, I wouldn't consider faster shield gauge building good enough to make up for always taking double damage.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

To bring some Rev into the discussion: Subaki could probably make a decent AK and WF would covers his SPD issue, essentially turning him into discount Benny. WF Orochi for obvious reasons. And any child mothered by Orochi.

On 11/5/2022 at 9:52 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

The point I'm trying to make is that Effie can consistently double mid speed enemies throughout the game. This makes her bulkier thanks to shield gauge and doesn't require much more than speed pair up and Tonic.  Wary Fighter is more of hindrance than a boon for her.

Lategame enemies may be stronger, but so are the tools you are given to face them. You can easily have rallies, food, shelter dances, and can stack skills to make up for the difference. You don't need raw stats when you have so many other ways to make stats.

Let me portray an example. An 15/15 Effie has 20 Speed. With S Rank Kaze and Speed Tonic, that's 28. Add on a Rally and Meal results on 34 Speed. That is more than enough to double the majority of enemies throughout chapter 22-24, the bulk of where you fight hoshidan soldiers in the late game.

That´s all very cool but it ignores the simple fact that your early promotion brings with it constant opportunity costs throughout the rest of the game and that can and will snowball; when lategame is harder than earlygame, and for CQ I´d mark it down as significantly harder than earlygame, then early promotion can absolutely be bad [depending on the unit and class TM - see Elise]. To top it all off, WF is a skill. Skills can be unequipped when not needed.

With your theorizing here you are constantly purchasing Tonics, cooking meals which are RNG dependant and limited not only in outcome but also requirements. There´s only so many units who can have so many Rallies, Rallies like SPD requiring most likely either classchange or capturing. What does reclassing and capturing do? It uses ressources, ressources that either cost money, are again rng dependant or use time, potentially negating the supposed benefit when you wanted/needed it. Using kids requires using their parents and that influences who gets deployed where and that changes the way a map may be approached, all the more in CQs earyl game with it´s limited deployment slots. The same goes for pairing up units.

Additionally, the only tools you gain throughout the campaign are more skills - dancing, meals, shelter dances are available early on.

And all of that to make the easy part of the game easier.

[LoneRecon400]

On 11/9/2022 at 11:08 AM, Imuabicus said:

That´s all very cool but it ignores the simple fact that your early promotion brings with it constant opportunity costs throughout the rest of the game and that can and will snowball; when lategame is harder than earlygame, and for CQ I´d mark it down as significantly harder than earlygame, then early promotion can absolutely be bad [depending on the unit and class TM - see Elise]. To top it all off, WF is a skill. Skills can be unequipped when not needed.

With your theorizing here you are constantly purchasing Tonics, cooking meals which are RNG dependant and limited not only in outcome but also requirements. There´s only so many units who can have so many Rallies, Rallies like SPD requiring most likely either classchange or capturing. What does reclassing and capturing do? It uses ressources, ressources that either cost money, are again rng dependant or use time, potentially negating the supposed benefit when you wanted/needed it. Using kids requires using their parents and that influences who gets deployed where and that changes the way a map may be approached, all the more in CQs earyl game with it´s limited deployment slots. The same goes for pairing up units.

Additionally, the only tools you gain throughout the campaign are more skills - dancing, meals, shelter dances are available early on.

Lategame isn't much harder than earlygame when using all the tools given. I don't see how promoting early is a significant cost if the unit in question can still one round consistently.

Cooking is not RNG dependant with the Level 3 mess hall, since all units benefit from the buffs. Getting the ingredients also isn't a concern since you can just gamble at the Arena for additional copies.

Rally Speed benefits everyone on the team. Getting units like Xander, Leo, and Effie to double without having to rely on levels is a massive boon that is well worth its weight in gold. It's one of the biggest tools in being able to one round consistently in the late game.

The difference the late game has over the early game is the amount stats you can stack. In the late game you have stats from supports, consistent food buffs, Rallies, promoted skills, and reclassing options. You could have Benny double Takumi at Endgame without a single speed proc or Speedwing, but there's no way he'd be able to double Reina in his join chapter.

Edited November 11, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Shadow Mir]

51 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Cooking is not RNG dependant with the Level 3 mess hall, since all units benefit from the buffs. Getting the ingredients also isn't a concern since you can just gamble at the Arena for additional copies.

While that's true, you gotta admit, you don't have the level 3 mess hall for most of the game, as it doesn't come into play until chapter 19 is cleared. Also, another issue here is that you do not know which resource you get in your castle until you start and get to that point; needed speed food for a benchmark, but got resistance food as your castle resource instead? Sucks to be you! Also, once the 3DS servers inevitably go down, so too does the usability of the mess hall (and some other functions as well, of which the prison is one)

Edited November 10, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[AnonymousSpeed]

Just cook the meal again.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Just cook the meal again.

That doesn't answer my gripes about it at all. Especially when my issues are more likely gonna be about resources, as once again, you only get one resource regularly. By which Imean once per day or once every 4 battles.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Arena.

[avengerfive]

You can also visit other people's castles to collect resources, although some may consider this "cheating".

The way Fates handles the resource system is quite frustrating otherwise. The starting ore/farm can make a huge difference. Even then, it can take a while to build up the amount you need. The fact that it is tied to real world time is really annoying.

Because of this, I partly believe the resources were balanced around you visiting other people's castle. At this point, whenever I play Fates, I just give myself 99 of every resource. It feels way more fun to play when I can take advantage of forging/meal boosts/fast recruit prisoners/Chef hat without having to wait.

Also, on topic: I personally don't think knight is very good. The best thing about knight is the Great Knight guard stance boosts, +2 Str +4 Def +1 Mov if I remember correctly. But if I had to give it to someone, maybe Xander? You could make some Pavise/Aegis/Sol meme build or something.

Edited November 13, 2022 by avengerfive

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:09 AM, LoneRecon400 said:

Lategame isn't much harder than earlygame when using all the tools given. I don't see how promoting early is a significant cost if the unit in question can still one round consistently.

No Lategame is difficult, if using the tools, you are given – see what a, and why that´s a shit take? Additionally, this point doesn´t evaluate CQ lategame as a standalone but in comparison to other FE´s lategame. Not seeing costs when permanently having to inject resources to keep up a unit’s performance lends credence to a visual impairment diagnosis.

On 11/10/2022 at 1:09 AM, LoneRecon400 said:

Cooking is not RNG dependant with the Level 3 mess hall, since all units benefit from the buffs. Getting the ingredients also isn't a concern since you can just gamble at the Arena for additional copies.

Eh, I see other people have mostly said what I wanted to say. Whatever.

I see, you didn´t understand again. The materials you have are RNG, getting more is a hassle on a good day, especially if you want the juicy 2 ingredient meals, I´m laughing at gambling in the arena. Just reset bro, mmkay? It´s also only once/map unless you time abuse it. And then there´s the question of who cooks and don´t start with getting the chef hat for a casual 30 Quartz, which is a Hoshidan resource. That´s a lot of fumbling around.

On 11/10/2022 at 1:09 AM, LoneRecon400 said:

Rally Speed benefits everyone on the team. Getting units like Xander, Leo, and Effie to double without having to rely on levels is a massive boon that is well worth its weight in gold. It's one of the biggest tools in being able to one round consistently in the late game.

I wasn´t discussing the value of Rally SPD but pointing towards the cost of acquiring it. Which, incidentally, falls in the category of opportunity cost, because if you are doing something with a character you are not doing something else with them. Considering there are only 3 units in CQ who have it in their kit naturally, one of which is your dancer, the other her kid and the other locked behind a reclass.

On 11/10/2022 at 1:09 AM, LoneRecon400 said:

The difference the late game has over the early game is the amount stats you can stack. In the late game you have stats from supports, consistent food buffs, Rallies, promoted skills, and reclassing options. You could have Benny double Takumi at Endgame without a single speed proc or Speedwing, but there's no way he'd be able to double Reina in his join chapter.

Doubling Takumi isn´t the benchmark you make it out to be, the guy has 30 SPD; if you want to impress me have him double the PU SM in Ryomas chapter, although I already know how to pull that off. You are also wrong: Benny can double Reina; down below is the setup on how to enable that.

Spoiler

Reina has 21 SPD, so we need 26 to double her. Benny starts at 6, Lodestar makes that 12 SPD, 1lvl as LS gives us Dancing Blade which is +3 SPD/-1Def, so we now at 15. To proceed we throw back a SPD tonic for 17 SPD, PU with SM Odin for 22 SPD, Dance for 25 SPD and equip an E-Rank Katana for 26 SPD or 28 SPD in case of Raider Katana.

Debuffs and the like have not been applied.

 

[avengerfive]

3 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

I wasn´t discussing the value of Rally SPD but pointing towards the cost of acquiring it. Which, incidentally, falls in the category of opportunity cost, because if you are doing something with a character you are not doing something else with them. Considering there are only 3 units in CQ who have it in their kit naturally, one of which is your dancer, the other her kid and the other locked behind a reclass.

You can capture a generic pegasus knight in Chapter 10 for Rally Speed. Give them exp through attack stance and promote them at level 10. Then you need 5 more levels for Rally Speed. I usually get it on Chapter 17.

Edited November 14, 2022 by avengerfive

[LoneRecon400]

Quote

Not seeing costs when permanently having to inject resources to keep up a unit’s performance lends credence to saying u dumb

I see, you didn´t understand again. The materials you have are RNG, getting more is a hassle on a good day, especially if you want the juicy 2 ingredient meals, I´m laughing at gambling in the arena. Just reset bro, mmkay? It´s also only once/map unless you time abuse it. And then there´s the question of who cooks and don´t start with getting the chef hat for a casual 30 Quartz, which is a Hoshidan resource. That´s a lot of fumbling around.

I wasn´t discussing the value of Rally SPD but pointing towards the cost of acquiring it. Which, incidentally, falls in the category of opportunity cost, because if you are doing something with a character you are not doing something else with them. Considering there are only 3 units in CQ who have it in their kit naturally, one of which is your dancer, the other her kid and the other locked behind a reclass.

Doubling Takumi isn´t the benchmark you make it out to be, the guy has 30 SPD; if you want to impress me have him double the PU SM in Ryomas chapter, although I already know how to pull that off. You are also wrong: Benny can double Reina; down below is the setup on how to enable that.

There are not any substantial costs associated with early promoting with how many ways there are to boost stats. Losing out on a couple stats that are not even guaranteed is not worth having to deal with Effie being a 4 movement unit when she could have 7 on top of having a much easier time doubling. 

The Arena resetting once a map is more than enough to cover the material costs of anything in mycastle. You don't even need a designated chef, just the standard buffs will do. Food isn't even that big of a deal for the amount of attention it's getting. It's just a nice bonus that is there so that units are less dependent on level ups.

It is not a significant cost to get Rally Speed at all. Even if you didn't want to use player character, you could capture a Kinshi in Ch 14 and have them stab a few Kitsune in 19 with the beast slayer to gain three levels. That only costs 1 heart seal to get a unit who can improve all your other units substantially 

Moving goal posts from midspeed enemies to the fastest enemies in the entire game is quite the stretch. I also don't understand how we can include DLC when it shares the same issue of food of not being permanently available. Even if DLC were to be included, it only weakens the idea that units need 20/20 stats since they pick up skills like Dancing Blade or Speed +2 for effectively no cost at all.

Edited November 14, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:32 AM, avengerfive said:

Also, on topic: I personally don't think knight is very good. The best thing about knight is the Great Knight guard stance boosts, +2 Str +4 Def +1 Mov if I remember correctly.

Honestly I'd rather that than Fighter. Knight at least got improved here. Fighter? Not so much. The best thing (and honestly, only good thing, at that) about it is HP +5.

25 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You don't even need a designated chef, just the standard buffs will do. Food isn't even that big of a deal for the amount of attention it's getting. It's just a nice bonus that is there so that units are less dependent on level ups.

Sounds like you are STILL trying to handwave the fact that there's too much randomness involved, especially since some chefs are bad to the point their cooking can actually make your stats drop (oh, and as an added bonus, one of your first recruits is such a character). Either that, or you don't mind cheating to get every resource in the game. I mean, using the mess hall for food buffs is all fine in theory, but there's a HUGE difference between Theory Emblem and actually putting this in practice.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

1 hour ago, avengerfive said:

You can capture a generic pegasus knight in Chapter 10 for Rally Speed. Give them exp through attack stance and promote them at level 10. Then you need 5 more levels for Rally Speed. I usually get it on Chapter 17.

What would you consider warping your playstyle around, babying and earlypromoting a lvl 8 pegasus knight, at a time where you have a limited amount of deployment slots. And how would you rank this option relative to other means of getting Rally Speed?

55 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

There are not any substantial costs associated with early promoting with how many ways there are to boost stats. Losing out on a couple stats that are not even guaranteed is not worth having to deal with Effie being a 4 movement unit when she could have 7 on top of having a much easier time doubling. 

The Arena resetting once a map is more than enough to cover the material costs of anything in mycastle. You don't even need a designated chef, just the standard buffs will do. Food isn't even that big of a deal for the amount of attention it's getting. It's just a nice bonus that is there so that units are less dependent on level ups.

It is not a significant cost to get Rally Speed at all. Even if you didn't want to use player character, you could capture a Kinshi in Ch 14 and have them stab a few Kitsune in 19 with the beast slayer to gain three levels. That only costs 1 heart seal to get a unit who can improve all your other units substantially 

Moving goal posts from midspeed enemies to the fastest enemies in the entire game is quite the stretch. I also don't understand how we can include DLC when it shares the same issue of food of not being permanently available. Even if DLC were to be included, it only weakens the idea that units need 20/20 stats since they pick up skills like Dancing Blade or Speed +2 for effectively no cost at all.

Except of course the amount of tonics you stuff into your chapter 13 prepromoted Effie all the way through the end, just to make the easy part of the game easier. I see we are getting into the “averages don´t matter” part of the discussion.

lol. Yeah, you are cooking and forging with 1 arena per chapter, when you might not have good ressources? lolno 

Chef don´t matter. I hope you enjoy your debuffs. Would be a shame if your Effie received... -1 spd. 

Mhm, Pegasus that attacks Kitsune. I do like me some suicidal ponies. 

If you remind yourself of my initial statement – fast hoshidans. It was you came up with slow and middling speed enemies, something I even reminded you of in my first reply.

Oh, I was looking at your example with Effie doubling Ryoma with a Raider Naginata and figured why the hell not? Also, the fun of theorycrafting. 

It is no surprise that the DLC content is…… gamebreakingly good. Yeah, these pesky DLC classes, that level to 40.

[LoneRecon400]

22 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Except of course the amount of tonics you stuff into your chapter 13 prepromoted Effie all the way through the end, just to make the easy part of the game easier. I see we are getting into the “averages don´t matter” part of the discussion.

Mhm, Pegasus that attacks Kitsune. I do like me some suicidal ponies. 

If you remind yourself of my initial statement – fast hoshidans. It was you came up with slow and middling speed enemies, something I even reminded you of in my first reply.

Oh, I was looking at your example with Effie doubling Ryoma with a Raider Naginata and figured why the hell not? Also, the fun of theorycrafting. 

Every combat unit should be regularly given tonics to reach one rounding benchmarks. You are given plenty of gold in conquest to do this, so it is not a substantial cost at all.

Ch 14 Kinshi Knight is capable of oneshoting every enemy on the map except the boss just with base stats. It's not difficult at all to feed them kills with shelter dancing, and they gain a good amount of exp thanks to their low internal level.

Again, not every enemy in Hoshido is a ninja. You are really overstimating the speed of enemies if you believe that Effie cannot double consistently. 

Raider Naginata is from 10 Visitor Points from the rankings. Those are cumulative from every save file,  so I don't think it's that unlikely that have one.

[avengerfive]

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

What would you consider warping your playstyle around, babying and earlypromoting a lvl 8 pegasus knight, at a time where you have a limited amount of deployment slots. And how would you rank this option relative to other means of getting Rally Speed?

This is my preference of course, but I do believe the little extra effort needed to get a generic Pegasus Knight Rally Speed is worthwhile. Rally Speed is really good, it's worth spending few extra turns/kills and a deployment slot. Also, you don't have to deploy the generic every chapter. I usually don't use it on chapters 12 and 13.

The generic pegasus knight is the best option for getting Rally Speed imo. The next best is Selena, but that requires a Heart Seal. Also, I prefer using BK Selena as a pairup for Xander. Azura can get it, but she's the dancer lol. Shigure is a pretty good option, you can wait until chapter 21 and he will get it through auto leveling with the offspring seal. But that requires pairing Azura, which might not be too bad, but I haven't tried it.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Ch 14 Kinshi Knight is capable of oneshoting every enemy on the map except the boss just with base stats. It's not difficult at all to feed them kills with shelter dancing, and they gain a good amount of exp thanks to their low internal level.

Sounds very suicidal. Like you're hankering for them to be shuffled off this mortal coil already. Personally, I prefer the air--I mean ranged attacks for this chapter. They can do fuck all about those.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:32 AM, avengerfive said:

You can also visit other people's castles to collect resources, although some may consider this "cheating".

Sure, it's cheating, but it's also free, so in the end, does it really count as a sin?

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly I'd rather that than Fighter. Knight at least got improved here. Fighter? Not so much. The best thing (and honestly, only good thing, at that) about it is HP +5.

Probably the best pair-up bonuses in the game.

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sounds like you are STILL trying to handwave the fact that there's too much randomness involved

>functionally infinite retries
>"too much randomness"

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sounds very suicidal. Like you're hankering for them to be shuffled off this mortal coil already. Personally, I prefer the air--I mean ranged attacks for this chapter. They can do fuck all about those.

Darn. If only Kinshi Knights had a weapon type that allowed them to attack from range.

[Shadow Mir]

17 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Darn. If only Kinshi Knights had a weapon type that allowed them to attack from range.

Well, tell that to LoneRecon. Because he entertained the thought of attacking an enemy his unit is weak to at melee range.

17 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

>functionally infinite retries
>"too much randomness"

Because the chef is random too. Unless you go out of your way to get a chef hat. Which, in case you have been sleeping in class, requires a Hoshidan resource. OR do you actually fancy the thought of the likes of Arthur cooking for you...?? Also, I wouldn't call it "functionally infinite retries" unless I was cheating to get every resource in the game. Otherwise, I'm at the mercy of multiple elements of randomness as to what food I get from my castle. Once again, you needed speed food for Camilla or whoever to hit a benchmark, but your castle gives anything other than milk instead or someone like Arthur ended up getting chef duty? Sucks to be you!!

Edited November 15, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[LoneRecon400]

Beastbane only has 2x might multipler, not a 3x one.

Ch 14 Kinshi has 32 HP and 14 Def as a Falco. That means with an HP And Def Tonic, they can take a hit from even the life and death beast rune kitsune and one shot them in return.

And on two shelter units, you can get them to Level 5  pretty easily just having them kite and clear the the north side of the map.

Edited November 15, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Beastbane only has 2x might multipler, not a 3x one.

Ch 14 Kinshi has 32 HP and 14 Def as a Falco. That means with an HP And Def Tonic, they can take a hit from even the life and death beast rune kitsune and one shot them in return.

And on two shelter units, you can get them to Level 5  pretty easily just having them kite and clear the the north side of the map.

Still about as smart as robbing a police station. And honestly, I don't think Rally Speed is so good as to justify this risky, SUICIDAL behavior, considering that, as a generic, should they whiff, they are prone to get crit and annihilated before you can say "But Rally Speed is worth it...." 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[avengerfive]

I am currently playing through Conquest Lunatic and am on Chapter 22. Here is my generic Pegasus Knight picking up a no risk kill:

This is just for example; she already has Rally Speed from picking up similar Attack Stance kills during Chapters 16-17:

Here’s Xander stats (I gave him 2 Speedwings):

He has 27 Spd, which goes to 31 Spd with Rally Speed. This allows him to double Blacksmiths on the map (24 Spd):

In fact, with 31 Spd he doubles everyone on the map except for Sakura and Hana.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

20 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

There are not any substantial costs associated with early promoting with how many ways there are to boost stats. Losing out on a couple stats that are not even guaranteed is not worth having to deal with Effie being a 4 movement unit when she could have 7 on top of having a much easier time doubling. 

Ah, after we start ignoring averages, we start using a certain playstyle as an argument?

Doing the math with your earlypromoted Effie, you have access to at minimum 15 and at max 29 chapters. Since you want her to double and actually kill you´ll need STR/SPD tonics for 300 together. That´s 4500-8700 gold, not counting eventual HP/DEF/RES tonics, the fact that the initial tonics aren´t enough to get her to reliably 1rko…

No substantial cost. Right.

18 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Ch 14 Kinshi Knight is capable of oneshoting every enemy on the map except the boss just with base stats. It's not difficult at all to feed them kills with shelter dancing, and they gain a good amount of exp thanks to their low internal level.

Beastbane only has 2x might multipler, not a 3x one.

Ch 14 Kinshi has 32 HP and 14 Def as a Falco. That means with an HP And Def Tonic, they can take a hit from even the life and death beast rune kitsune and one shot them in return.

And on two shelter units, you can get them to Level 5  pretty easily just having them kite and clear the the north side of the map.

I could not find anything on captures having a low internal level.

A lvl 1 chapter 14 Kinshi reclassed into FK has 32HP/14STR/12DEF, with B rank lances for +1 dmg. That gives us, with the Beastkiller: 14 + 30 + 1 = 45, which kills, out of 8 different thresholds I could identify, 4 type of Kitsune/Ninetails -> their respective bulk being 32, 42, 41, 40. There are Kitsune/Ninetails with 47, 50, 59 and 53 total bulk. Our FK only doubles the Beastrune Kitsune, who are getting 1HKO´ed anyway. 

Our FK has 15SKL/13LCK and B Lances. This should be, with Beastkiller 85hit, 119 total hit. There are the following avoid stats: 45, 27, 62, 44, 66, 53, 76.

Our FK has 32HP/12DEF for total bulk of 44. With your tonics that +5/+2, so 51 total. There are 9, potentially 11 damage thresholds I could identify: 26, 36, 42, 38, 48, 48 + 4, 50 + 4, 51. +4 stems from Evenhanded. Ninetails with Beaststone+ and Kaden will double our FK, for 100/108 and 102 damage.

Reevaluate your prior statements and then account for the fact none of the aforementioned calculations took terrain into consideration, much less the map mechanic.

21 hours ago, avengerfive said:

You can capture a generic pegasus knight in Chapter 10 for Rally Speed. Give them exp through attack stance and promote them at level 10. Then you need 5 more levels for Rally Speed. I usually get it on Chapter 17.

18 hours ago, avengerfive said:

This is my preference of course, but I do believe the little extra effort needed to get a generic Pegasus Knight Rally Speed is worthwhile. Rally Speed is really good, it's worth spending few extra turns/kills and a deployment slot. Also, you don't have to deploy the generic every chapter. I usually don't use it on chapters 12 and 13.

Does this actually work out? Get them ~11, don´t deploy for 12 and 13, baby in 14, skip 15 again, baby in 16... that seems like a genuinely awful experience considering the partial bulk of chapter 14 enemies, the mixed damage pressure in 16 etc.

14 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

>functionally infinite retries
>"too much randomness"

long term cryin

14 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Darn. If only Kinshi Knights had a weapon type that allowed them to attack from range.

If only we didn´t need to class change to Falcon Knight for Rally Speed, like in the example provided. goshdarnit

[LoneRecon400]

2 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Ah, after we start ignoring averages, we start using a certain playstyle as an argument?

Doing the math with your earlypromoted Effie, you have access to at minimum 15 and at max 29 chapters. Since you want her to double and actually kill you´ll need STR/SPD tonics for 300 together. That´s 4500-8700 gold, not counting eventual HP/DEF/RES tonics, the fact that the initial tonics aren´t enough to get her to reliably 1rko…

No substantial cost. Right.

I could not find anything on captures having a low internal level.

A lvl 1 chapter 14 Kinshi reclassed into FK has 32HP/14STR/12DEF, with B rank lances for +1 dmg. That gives us, with the Beastkiller: 14 + 30 + 1 = 45, which kills, out of 8 different thresholds I could identify, 4 type of Kitsune/Ninetails -> their respective bulk being 32, 42, 41, 40. There are Kitsune/Ninetails with 47, 50, 59 and 53 total bulk. Our FK only doubles the Beastrune Kitsune, who are getting 1HKO´ed anyway. 

Our FK has 15SKL/13LCK and B Lances. This should be, with Beastkiller 85hit, 119 total hit. There are the following avoid stats: 45, 27, 62, 44, 66, 53, 76.

Our FK has 32HP/12DEF for total bulk of 44. With your tonics that +5/+2, so 51 total. There are 9, potentially 11 damage thresholds I could identify: 26, 36, 42, 38, 48, 48 + 4, 50 + 4, 51. +4 stems from Evenhanded. Ninetails with Beaststone+ and Kaden will double our FK, for 100/108 and 102 damage.

When did I ever claim that averages don't matter? All I'm claiming is that units need less levels to hit benchmarks with cooking.

Effie never really needs Strength tonics while doubling. And you're not applying a Speed Tonic every chapter. They should be only used when their relevant for benchmarks. You're not going to put a Speed Tonic on her for Ch 17, 19, and 25 for instance.

You only reclass for the final level, so it's really 124 Hit for the most of it. Combined with the Skl/Luk Tonic plus Attack stance that's 139. Add on Inspiring song and that's 144. That's enough to consistently hit the normal beaststone and Rune Kitsune, and a freeze staff will even out the nine tails evasion.

None of the enemies from the north even benefit from the gimmick. And It's easy enough to lure them to side near the mountain and have them make use of the terrain.  

The whole thing was just supposed an example anyways. If  you don't want to it this way, you could just feed with attacks stance Anonymous Speed does. It's not that difficult to do. I only do it there because it enemies are pretty flimsy and it make a otherwise terrible map interesting, on top of benefiting giving a a pretty substantial boon for the rest for the campaign. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

a freeze staff will even out the nine tails evasion.

IF it hits. Personally, I'm generally not a fan of status staves because the stuff that it'd be most beneficial to hit with them is either immune to them outright or hard to hit with them.

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

All I'm claiming is that units need less levels to hit benchmarks with cooking.

Which is true, but the problem is that there is a shitton of randomness with cooking for most of the game, and the chef is among this randomness. What are ya gonna do if you got Arthur or one of the other bad cooks as your chef??

[LoneRecon400]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

IF it hits.

Base Ch 16 Felica has 80 hit on the Beast Stone + Nine tails (Ch 16 Jakob also has 77 hit). Even if you miss, you could always just shelter them out of danger or kite them.

And that's only if you want no investment. If you don't mind spending Dragon Vein Points,you could get Izana who has a 100 hit on them.

Though I got to ask, how do you take care of them? 66 avoid is rough for anyone. Offensive staves are actually one of the more accurate options against them. What do you do for them instead?

Edited November 16, 2022 by LoneRecon400