OMG it's a tier list

[Soren37]

Tanith wants STR more than SKL. She already naturally caps SKL by --/20, but the STR boost can help her kill things better.

Jill would like the DEF transfer. She's already taking 10+ damage in her starting chapter. The extra DEF can at least help her survivability, and knowing the AI, she'll probably try to Hand Axe enemies more often than pop a Vulnerary.

Boyd's SKL transfer probably won't make a difference. Yes, he's useful, but you also have Mia, Ike, Shinon, Gatrie, Oscar and Titania. And then you get Nephenee and Haar. The SKL can help his Hit Rate, but in the long run, it won't make much of a difference.

[Colonel M]

1-8 is problematic because your team is too spread out, there's too much terrain for him to try to move through, and the boss is too far away for him to reach that area in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't help that he starts with Volug and Nailah, who are better off running around on their own.

Nailah can easily solo the left side of the map while Volug can Rescue Rafiel and carry him over to the weaker side of the team. It's not too difficult to get Rafiel to be useful in 1-8.

1-E was already covered.

[Interceptor]

Nobody ever remembers that units can actually move in 1-8. I always get a kick out of people who assume that Volug has no impact on anywhere other than his starting position. Another nice thing about 1-8, by the way, is that you can be reckless with Rafiel and take more risks with him, because the downsides to his "retreat" are not permanent.

Not that I'm suggesting that the non-combatant herons belong anywhere on this tier list, or anything, just to clarify.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Interceptor

[Anouleth]

Nailah can easily solo the left side of the map while Volug can Rescue Rafiel and carry him over to the weaker side of the team. It's not too difficult to get Rafiel to be useful in 1-8.

The problem is that if you want to try going for a three-turn, Nailah can't actually clear the left-hand side of the map fast enough because there are too many units she can't kill on enemy phase. Rafiel is useful, sure, it's just questionable how useful. I usually have Volug shove him through the Reeds anyway rather than pick him up, which prevents him from Vigoring on Turn 2.

Nobody ever remembers that units can actually move in 1-8. I always get a kick out of people who assume that Volug has no impact on anywhere other than his starting position. Another nice thing about 1-8, by the way, is that you can be reckless with Rafiel and take more risks with him, because the downsides to his "retreat" are not permanent.

It depends on what you're going for. In the 3 turn, Volug has to stay on the left hand side of the map. In the 4 turn, he can help clear out the middle (which is the toughest section anyway).

Edited December 14, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[RNG Princess]

3 turning 1-8 isnt that too inefficient? Do you have Vika rescue/drop Sothe? I can't picture it x3.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

3 turning 1-8 isnt that too inefficient? Do you have Vika rescue/drop Sothe? I can't picture it x3.

See for yourself:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=22402&view=findpost&p=1247053

I ended up getting about 175 EXP for Edward and 75 EXP for Nolan. So not great, I admit. And I missed the Master Seal, obviously.

[RNG Princess]

See for yourself:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=22402&view=findpost&p=1247053

I ended up getting about 175 EXP for Edward and 75 EXP for Nolan. So not great, I admit. And I missed the Master Seal, obviously.

thats really cool x3. I'm impressed.

[Anouleth]

thats really cool x3. I'm impressed.

It's debatable if it's worthwhile. My units ended up pretty underlevelled going into 3-6 and it's not like I was super-fast with my other Part 1 chapters.

[RNG Princess]

It's debatable if it's worthwhile. My units ended up pretty underlevelled going into 3-6 and it's not like I was super-fast with my other Part 1 chapters.

Don't be so humble it would def be a good trick using a transfered Sothe ^^'.

[Anouleth]

Don't be so humble it would def be a good trick using a transfered Sothe ^^'.

He doesn't need the transfers, though. He's like, indestructible to magic.

[Florete]

Nobody ever remembers that units can actually move in 1-8.

Wait, units can move in 1-8 ? Damn.

But, more seriously, even without the 3 turn clear, Rafiel simply can't be put to enough use in 1-8 compared to what Reyson can do in his maps. Sure, there's the point that he'll come back for 1-E if he bites the dust in 1-8, but then he misses the rest of 1-8...

Edited December 15, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[RNG Princess]

He doesn't need the transfers, though. He's like, indestructible to magic.

Thats true x3

Sothe is such a useful character I can understand why he's up there now. I remember when I used to say Sothe was one of the worst characters ^^', its so easy to tie emotions and favoritism and letting it take judgement to a characters contributions ^_^.

[Interceptor]

He doesn't need the transfers, though. He's like, indestructible to magic.

It's true that with 9 RES, he laughs heartily at the tier 1 mages in this game. But if you give him the Red Fox of Favoritism Treatment<tm> in PoR, he comes over with with HP/LCK/DEF all capped, and can therefore actually do something worthwhile in 3-6+. That'd let you ignore the fact that you're screwing over your other units with a quick 1-8 clear, so the lack of EXPs for Nolan etc make less of a difference.

Wait, units can move in 1-8 ? Damn.

But, more seriously, even without the 3 turn clear, Rafiel simply can't be put to enough use in 1-8 compared to what Reyson can do in his maps. Sure, there's the point that he'll come back for 1-E if he bites the dust in 1-8, but then he misses the rest of 1-8...

It's true that Rafiel has no answer to 3-5, 3-8, and 3-10. My point was 1-8 is not a total washout for him, because 1) he's not wearing cement overshoes, and 2) we don't care if he dies. There are other factors at play here as well... Endgame for example, if you want to throw down about that one for the 5th time.

And just to reiterate, fussing about the ordering of herons on this tier list is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Thats true x3

Sothe is such a useful character I can understand why he's up there now. I remember when I used to say Sothe was one of the worst characters ^^', its so easy to tie emotions and favoritism and letting it take judgement to a characters contributions ^_^.

Sothe is pretty awesome, it's true. Just don't pay too much attention to the other 80% of the game where he either 1) doesn't exist, or 2) might as well not exist, because that sort of undermines his position as Radiant Dawn Jesus.

[Anouleth]

It's true that with 9 RES, he laughs heartily at the tier 1 mages in this game. But if you give him the Red Fox of Favoritism Treatment<tm> in PoR, he comes over with with HP/LCK/DEF all capped, and can therefore actually do something worthwhile in 3-6+. That'd let you ignore the fact that you're screwing over your other units with a quick 1-8 clear, so the lack of EXPs for Nolan etc make less of a difference.

If anything screwed Nolan over, it was training Edward. I don't think the fast completion of 1-8 had much to do with it.

[Interceptor]

Nolan is not materially important to my point, hence "etc". It could be Zihark, Eddie, Aran, Leo, whomever. The specific growth units that you are screwing over matter less than the fact that someone, somewhere, is watching their potential EXP gains go into a prepromoted garbage disposal. This normally would limit your flexibility in 3-6, but if you have a reset-abused Sothe from PoR in your pocket that maybe gets 3HKO'ed by 41mt Tigers, suddenly it doesn't matter quite so much.

Naturally, this has nothing to do with the tier list, but a glance at the last few pages shows that my tangent is in good company, so there you go.

[Narga_Rocks]

Sothe has 40 hp and 20 def tier 2 caps. He's not getting 3HKOd by 41 mt tigers without a def support. Of course, 39 atk tigers are much more numerous, so it's not that big a deal. But even on a thicket they manage to kill him. (Though at least a thicket allows him to survive one 39 atk + one 41 atk)

I've had an insanely def blessed Sothe before (capped def during 3-12). He still wasn't particularly useful during 3-13.

And just to reiterate, fussing about the ordering of herons on this tier list is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Well, you want to get the best view of the iceberg you can, right?

Besides, how long were they at sea before the sinking? For that time, there is a point in re-arranging the deck chairs.

Sothe is pretty awesome, it's true. Just don't pay too much attention to the other 80% of the game where he either 1) doesn't exist, or 2) might as well not exist, because that sort of undermines his position as Radiant Dawn Jesus.

You can hardly hold his availability against him when the ~14 chapters for which he's there is as numerous as anyone except the DB units that arrive earlier than him. Plus Ilyana. Plus Brom, Neph, Heather. But those last three are only by like one chapter anyway.

If we held his availability against him, we'd have to do the same to nearly everyone. As for "2)", when you compare his part 4 + 3-12 + 3-13 to his part 1, isn't that only like 30% of his existence?

Edited December 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

Nolan is not materially important to my point, hence "etc". It could be Zihark, Eddie, Aran, Leo, whomever. The specific growth units that you are screwing over matter less than the fact that someone, somewhere, is watching their potential EXP gains go into a prepromoted garbage disposal. This normally would limit your flexibility in 3-6, but if you have a reset-abused Sothe from PoR in your pocket that maybe gets 3HKO'ed by 41mt Tigers, suddenly it doesn't matter quite so much.

I don't think having a super-Sothe affects that much in Part 3. Still has shitty accuracy with the Beast Killer, still 2HKOes, still doesn't double Cats. Only improvement is getting to take an extra round of combat in 3-6 and maybe 3-13.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Narga_Rocks]

At least Cats go from 3HKOing him to 4 or 5. The rare 31atk cats will 4 hit, the rest will 5 hit. Or worse, in the case of those poor level 14 cats that don't have S strike. And I suppose any cats that only have 27 atk will 6 hit. But really I don't remember them being very numerous. Even though there are supposed to be 8 cats with 27 atk, I don't think I saw even 5. Guess the level 15 ones got lucky when I played.

But yeah, even if you manage to get your super Sothe to 30 luck in PoR and level 7 in RD (34 luck), that's 25 skill and 34 luck and a 65 hit weapon. 50 + 34 + 65 = 149 hit. That's only 97 listed on level 17 cats with 52 avo. Oh dear. I'm really worried about that 0.15% chance that he'll miss.

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate biorhythm sometimes? Sothe doesn't go to worst, but does go to bad. This can drop his hit to 144, and cats can reach 62 avo and tigers can reach 53 avo. Sothe has 91 minimum listed hit on tigers (98.47%) and 82 minimum listed hit on cats (93.7%). And this is worst case. And Micaiah support lets him use his Wind for +7 hit. 98 listed on tigers (99.94%) and 89 listed on cats (97.69%). The hit on cats would annoy me if it wasn't for the fact that this is rather rare. Even the second worst scenario of 94 listed gives him 99.34%, much less to be afraid of as long as he's not OHKOd as the price of a miss.

(Yes, I'm aware that Sothe can't get past 28 luck in PoR since his base is 5 and there are only 2 ashera icons so even if you force him to always gain luck he won't reach 30. Whatever, use the Ashera Icon from 1-8 if you are worried about 2 hit. And if you want to complain about him getting 19 out of 19 on a 79.75% effective growth due to blossom, remember this is the tangent abused version of Sothe. Since you can't get his skl/spd beyond 20, luck is the only way to help his RD hit and avoid so why wouldn't you? His average is ~20 anyway so you only need to get 4 extra. And who else would you give the icons to?)

edit: oops. Sothe has +8 for hit. I've been playing the gba fes too much, clearly. Um...just assume he only has 33 luck then and the numbers for w/ support are the same.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Sothe has 40 hp and 20 def tier 2 caps. He's not getting 3HKOd by 41 mt tigers without a def support. Of course, 39 atk tigers are much more numerous, so it's not that big a deal. But even on a thicket they manage to kill him. (Though at least a thicket allows him to survive one 39 atk + one 41 atk)

Pet peeve #49: I go through the effort to be precise in my word choice, and people read right over it like I didn't say anything.

I said "maybe" get 3HKO'ed, which implies that it's situational. Which it is. Sothe needs a combination of DEF support and thicket cover, but he can pull both of those things off easily for when it's needed.

You can hardly hold his availability against him [...]

Watch me.

If we held his availability against him, we'd have to do the same to nearly everyone. As for "2)", when you compare his part 4 + 3-12 + 3-13 to his part 1, isn't that only like 30% of his existence?

See #49. When I say "might as well not exist", I mean that whatever stupid shit he's doing there isn't worth a great deal.

I don't think having a super-Sothe affects that much in Part 3. Still has shitty accuracy with the Beast Killer, still 2HKOes, still doesn't double Cats. Only improvement is getting to take an extra round of combat in 3-6 and maybe 3-13.

I don't think that Mike Miller is the best shooter in the NBA, that honor clearly belongs to Ray Allen.

Take your super-Sothe rebuttal to someone who actually made the argument in the first place. All that I said was that giving up EXP gains in 1-8 are mitigated by having a transfer-abused Sothe to pick up the slack in Part 3. If you don't think that Sothe with a bunch of capped stats in tier 2 can't make up for the slight loss of army strength in 3-6 as a result 3-turn clear of 1-8, then I'd suggest you stop having Sothe stab himself in the face with an ice pick, and try using him in combat against enemies. With a weapon equipped, preferably.

Incidentally, Sothe with 40 LCK absolutely does not have accuracy problems with the Beastkiller. Unless you think that "oh shit I couldn't miss unless I picked up Micaiah without Savior" is a "problem", in which case I'll naturally have to concede the point that Sothe does indeed have a problem with failing on purpose.

[Narga_Rocks]

Pet peeve #49: I go through the effort to be precise in my word choice, and people read right over it like I didn't say anything.

I said "maybe" get 3HKO'ed, which implies that it's situational. Which it is. Sothe needs a combination of DEF support and thicket cover, but he can pull both of those things off easily for when it's needed.

Call it "disputing your maybe". I know I admitted to the possibility of a +def support doing it, but I question the wisdom of such a support, and thickets alone are insufficient. Leo, Ed, Aran. 1-2 gives no chapter bonus so Sothe has trouble getting 50 points for a C by 1-4. So in 1-5 he gets a C, in 1-7 he gets a B, in 1-E he gets an A. This of course requires that you deploy the unit in each of those chapters along the way. You can pretty much only not send them out once in all those chapters to still make the A for 3-6. Considering how bad those units are, I say no. Additionally, Leo is the only one that maybe would be okay with getting Wind, though an untrained Leo will likely prefer Meg anyway. If you are bothering to use Ed that much, you might as well give him Nolan so he'll actually dodge something one day. And if you are using Aran I pity you.

There aren't enough thickets for me to buy giving him a C support and standing on a thicket as the "maybe". It's like 2 turns out of the entire chapter or something that he'll be likely to be on a thicket unless you just play defensive for the whole chapter.

Watch me.

Just saying once you hold the same thing against everyone the playing field is leveled and there is no longer any reason to consider it. If you rate everyone from 1 to 10, then subtract 4 for each unit due to the fact that availability sucks in this game, Sothe is still going to be ahead of anyone over whom he was already ahead by the exact same amount. And if you take into account how he beats so very many units in availability (like, give Reyson a -5 or -6 instead of the standard -4 you give to Sothe and most GMs), this only serves to increase any leads he has (or close the gaps on anyone he was losing to).

See #49. When I say "might as well not exist", I mean that whatever stupid shit he's doing there isn't worth a great deal.

Is this #49 in reverse?

"1) doesn't exist, or 2) might as well not exist,"

The statement of mine you quoted deals with both parts of your original statement I reproduced here. The thing you should not hold against him is #1, since everyone has that problem.

As for part 2 of your statement, Sothe is just fine in 3-6. It's 3-12 and beyond where he's no longer worth much (though a super Sothe does okay in 3-12. Still not as good as super Jill, though. I've had, as I said, a def blessed Sothe and he still disappointed me in 3-12 so I'm giving you that chapter in his bad category).

From 1-2 until 3-6, he's in 9 chapters. From 3-12 until the end of the game he's in 5 chapters (if you are finishing Endgame in 7 or 8 turns total, let's just call it one chapter, eh? Particularly with 1-6 being kinda 2 but kinda 1 chapter that will probably take as long or longer than 4-E).

5 + 9 = 14. 5/14 = ~0.36. So around 36% of the time he's useless (though I question treasure hunting in 4-3 being defined as "isn't worth a great deal", but that may just be the completionist in me). The other 64% he's great. Quite different from the 80% bad you said earlier.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Call it "disputing your maybe". I know I admitted to the possibility of a +def support doing it, but I question the wisdom of such a support [...]

You're free to question the wisdom of it, so long as you acknowledge that it's within the power of the player to make it happen easily, because that's what my point was. You have plenty of DEF partners in the DB, even if only used temporarily, and there is adequate thicket coverage in 3-6 to set up the scenario if you so desire (right in the choke points).

From 1-2 until 3-6, he's in 9 chapters. From 3-12 until the end of the game he's in 5 chapters (if you are finishing Endgame in 7 or 8 turns total, let's just call it one chapter, eh? Particularly with 1-6 being kinda 2 but kinda 1 chapter that will probably take as long or longer than 4-E).

Sure, sounds good to me. Endgame is one chapter. Let's also ignore stuff like 2-P and 3-E, because who cares, and we can probably combine 3-6 and 3-7 since they are basically the same map anyway right? And then there's maps like 3-10, which have a bunch of NPCs in them, so it's not really fair to give playable characters full credit for the chapter.

If we really try, I'll bet we can get Sothe up to effective 50% participation in the game, or more!

[Anouleth]

You're free to question the wisdom of it, so long as you acknowledge that it's within the power of the player to make it happen easily, because that's what my point was. You have plenty of DEF partners in the DB, even if only used temporarily, and there is adequate thicket coverage in 3-6 to set up the scenario if you so desire (right in the choke points).

Well, if we're going to talk about a 30+ luck Sothe, then he also has about 106 avoid with an earth support. That turns into around 128 avoid with Resolve and he still has barely enough durability to take a hit. Problem is that he faces a toss up between retaining really high avoid with Nolan or more breathing room with concrete durability with a +DEF support. Nolan is more convenient because they have an accelerated support in Part 1, but probably won't want to be chained to Sothe in Part 4.

Probably best to just give him a C with some scrub with a +DEF affinity (there are plenty to choose from).

Edited December 15, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Florete]

It's true that with 9 RES, he laughs heartily at the tier 1 mages in this game. But if you give him the Red Fox of Favoritism Treatment<tm> in PoR, he comes over with with HP/LCK/DEF all capped, and can therefore actually do something worthwhile in 3-6+. That'd let you ignore the fact that you're screwing over your other units with a quick 1-8 clear, so the lack of EXPs for Nolan etc make less of a difference.

Even I can only get Sothe to 28 Luck, not capped. But geez, you talk as though someone is trying to argue Sothe to the top of the list. Not just this post, all of them. What the hell? I know you hate Sothe, but Jesus Christ, calm down.

Sothe has 40 hp and 20 def tier 2 caps. He's not getting 3HKOd by 41 mt tigers without a def support. Of course, 39 atk tigers are much more numerous, so it's not that big a deal. But even on a thicket they manage to kill him. (Though at least a thicket allows him to survive one 39 atk + one 41 atk)

If surviving two 41 atk Tigers is a big deal to pull off, I'd think it would follow that we want to get Sothe a +Def support if that's all he needs for it.

[Interceptor]

Even I can only get Sothe to 28 Luck, not capped. But geez, you talk as though someone is trying to argue Sothe to the top of the list. Not just this post, all of them. What the hell? I know you hate Sothe, but Jesus Christ, calm down.

I had assumed that ~40 LCK was possible, having never actually deigned to go through Hundred Reset Hell in PoR myself. As it happens, the 28 LCK ceiling in PoR doesn't change much of anything that I said, because of level-ups in RD combined with the Ashera Icon. One could say, that I lucked out.

Sothe is, as far as I am concerned, basically at the top of the list already. He's positioned as the king of High. This puts him above several units that have consistent good-to-excellent performances, units that don't phone in nearly half of their available deployments. On some level, I find this hilarious, so I like bringing it up constantly. It gives me a chance to say something colorful about Sothe, and it also makes people squirm when they try to defend him.

My hate for Sothe has nothing to do with it. You know who else I hate? Nephenee. Anyone care to accuse me of sandbagging her? I hate Gatrie, too. And I was the one who argued him out of Upper Mid into High in the first place. It doesn't work the other way, either: I am a big fan of Zihark, and I argued him down, out of High. And Mist, my favorite character, is way down in the tier list garbage heap where she belongs. Etc.

[Florete]

I had assumed that ~40 LCK was possible, having never actually deigned to go through Hundred Reset Hell in PoR myself. As it happens, the 28 LCK ceiling in PoR doesn't change much of anything that I said, because of level-ups in RD combined with the Ashera Icon. One could say, that I lucked out.

"Hundred Reset Hell?" Ha, no way. Sothe is, by far, the easiest unit in PoR to reset abuse for good levels, granted you're in random mode and don't care about Magic. Having 5 growths at 80+ and the other two at 50+ means I barely even have to reset. My current transfer run Sothe is level 12, and I'd say ~half those levels have been perfect (-Mag), and with maximum 5 resets each (average 2-3, though).

Give him a Pegasus or Priest Band and his chance to gain everything but Mag is ~15%. That is hella good. Also consider that even if you don't want to use a Robe on him and want him to gain HP and Luck on every level for the greatest possible results, the chance of just getting those two with the Band is 71.4% already. None of the other stats need to gained as often, so you can afford some non-perfect levels. No, Sothe's "Reset Hell" in PoR does not even make sense. Just try getting Mist to cap everything. Then you'll know what Reset Hell truly is.

Sothe is, as far as I am concerned, basically at the top of the list already. He's positioned as the king of High. This puts him above several units that have consistent good-to-excellent performances, units that don't phone in nearly half of their available deployments. On some level, I find this hilarious, so I like bringing it up constantly. It gives me a chance to say something colorful about Sothe, and it also makes people squirm when they try to defend him.

I do not see people squirming when they argue that my 9.0 was too low.

My hate for Sothe has nothing to do with it. You know who else I hate? Nephenee. Anyone care to accuse me of sandbagging her? I hate Gatrie, too. And I was the one who argued him out of Upper Mid into High in the first place. It doesn't work the other way, either: I am a big fan of Zihark, and I argued him down, out of High. And Mist, my favorite character, is way down in the tier list garbage heap where she belongs. Etc.

I do not believe you.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Sadistic Fox