OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

Who the hell cares? In the end, since Sothe and Titania do not share any chapters until Endgame (where Titania might very well not be deployed), it is pretty subjective whether Sothe's contribution over the course of his chapters is greater or lesser than Titania's contribution over the course of her chapters. It is not a comparison that I care to argue, in any case.

In other news, is anyone interested in addressing my earlier call for Boyd (T) to go above Nephenee?

[Florete]

Who the hell cares? In the end, since Sothe and Titania do not share any chapters until Endgame (where Titania might very well not be deployed), it is pretty subjective whether Sothe's contribution over the course of his chapters is greater or lesser than Titania's contribution over the course of her chapters. It is not a comparison that I care to argue, in any case.

In other news, is anyone interested in addressing my earlier call for Boyd (T) to go above Nephenee?

If I recall correctly, Boyd (T) with a Speedwing will get him doubling very fast, and if that's the case, he definitely needs to go up.

[Interceptor]

Then you're either doing a terrible job or using a very unorthodox style.

This judgment of my argument comes from someone who both rejects my stated personal character preferences as lies, and vociferously defends Sothe when I'm not even attacking him in the first place. I hope that you are not offended if I feel like getting a second opinion, since I feel like the chance of you approving of anything that I say on this matter to be infinitely close to zero percent.

The trouble with Sothe and Titania is that we have to decide if Sothe's 10 good chapters are good enough to override Titania's 13 to 18 chapters (depending on how you count it, since 3-4 barely counts for her, 3-7 she can't face much either, and 4-E can reasonably be counted as anything between 2 and 5, perhaps even 1).

Not to mention that Sothe's Part 1 performance itself is unevenly good/consequential. He misses the first two critical turns in 1-2, and then he is universally clutch in 1-3. He is excellent in 1-4, but then Volug is absolutely the MVP of 1-5 (which is, past that, largely a self-improvement chapter for the tier 1 units). He's knifing his way to a quick Rout in 1-6-1, and taking more of a backseat in 1-6-2 and 1-7 to other prepromos. He's excellent in 1-8 for mage combat and ghosting through thickets, and then in 1-E he's somewhat sidelined again.

Sothe's performance is a little bit more nuanced than something like "cleanly dominates Part 1 and then turns to poo afterwards". If you're going to nitpick about Titania's individual chapter performances, you might as well look at his, too.

It's like the hawks against anything that is slightly worse than they are but around for longer. And just as annoying. So I'm leaving it how RF had it.

I'm not anticipating his tier position changing -- since this tier list could give lessons on inertia to Sir Isaac Newton -- I'm just voicing the minority viewpoint, with no expectation that people will really change their minds.

[Anouleth]

If I recall correctly, Boyd (T) with a Speedwing will get him doubling very fast, and if that's the case, he definitely needs to go up.

It's not 100% necessary. If you add in the skill transfer like I mentioned earlier, he can take a Secret Book and just start BEXPing when he caps HP and Skill. It's not so good as the speedwing for early-mid Part 3, but either way he'll be fine for late Part 3 and Part 4. For example, a level 15 Boyd in 3-8 would have around 53HP/29STR/26SKL/25SPD/15LUK/20DEF, which with an A support and a max mt Steel forge is 47ATK. Even against Generals, he 2HKOes, and he doubles everything except Swordmasters.

[Florete]

It's not 100% necessary. If you add in the skill transfer like I mentioned earlier, he can take a Secret Book and just start BEXPing when he caps HP and Skill. It's not so good as the speedwing for early-mid Part 3, but either way he'll be fine for late Part 3 and Part 4. For example, a level 15 Boyd in 3-8 would have around 53HP/29STR/26SKL/25SPD/15LUK/20DEF, which with an A support and a max mt Steel forge is 47ATK. Even against Generals, he 2HKOes, and he doubles everything except Swordmasters.

Well, I did add in the transfer, as well as some others, a mere 37 minutes ago.

[Interceptor]

Well, I did add in the transfer, as well as some others, a mere 37 minutes ago.

Which ones did you change?

[Florete]

Which ones did you change?

Uh....

Res for Ike

Def for Jill

Skl for Boyd

Str for Brom

Str for Tanith

Mag for Calill

Mag and Spd for Tormod

Note that those are all dependent on stat boosters.

[Zkirsche]

I feel like getting a second opinion

I think Sothe's fine where he is, but I'm not sure that's the response you're looking for from this.

For example, a level 15 Boyd in 3-8 would have around 53HP/29STR/26SKL/25SPD/15LUK/20DEF

I'd like to point out these are fake SF averages and the real averages show that he is a point from capping skill, and both the HP and str values, and I presume Def value too, have all been rounded up. With the +2 from being Boyd(T), he only has 23 AS which misses out quite a bit at first glance. Not to mention he might want to use 1-2 range from now and again for enemy phase. Although I guess you can trade with some scrub so w/e. Still, at 1-2 range, Boyd is very borderline on killing even the weakest general. But, admittedly, he 2HKO's everything else, which I'm sure Nephenee can't do. So he's probably > Nephenee, but let's not get carried away.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Kevin

[Anouleth]

I'd like to point out these are fake SF averages and the real averages show that he is a point from capping skill, and both the HP and str values, and I presume Def value too, have all been rounded up. With the +2 from being Boyd(T), he only has 23 AS which misses out quite a bit at first glance. Not to mention he might want to use 1-2 range from now and again for enemy phase. Although I guess you can trade with some scrub so w/e. Still, at 1-2 range, Boyd is very borderline on killing even the weakest general. But, admittedly, he 2HKO's everything else, which I'm sure Nephenee can't do. So he's probably > Nephenee, but let's not get carried away.

I was assuming the Secret Book and use of BEXP. With the Secret Book, he caps skill around level 12, and he also has HP capped. This means he can start BEXPing with SPD as his third highest growth at 45% (ahead of Luck which is 40% and MAG/RES which are 10% each), so I don't think it's unreasonable that he would gain two points of speed in three levels.

Sure, at 1-2 range, he won't kill a general, but who can besides Soren? If we want to bring 1-2 range into it, incidentally, his victory is even greater because he has about 44ATK, which blows away Nephenee's ~33 attack with a forged Javelin at level 13 (she can only kill magic users with that). Being able to leave Generals on 2 or 3HP with a Hand Axe is fantastic.

[Zkirsche]

I was assuming the Secret Book and use of BEXP.

I forgot about the secret book AND the transfer, I'll admit, but spd isn't guaranteed. It's still 4th highest with only a 5% lead over luck.

With the Secret Book, he caps skill around level 12, and he also has HP capped.

HP capped is crap. Unless we're throwing a seraph robe at him, that is, and a secret book + seraph robe + bexp is a bit much for an upper mid unit. If not, 51 HP is his maximum HP at this level, assuming he's got 1 level up each and every level.

Sure, at 1-2 range, he won't kill a general, but who can besides Soren? If we want to bring 1-2 range into it, incidentally, his victory is even greater because he has about 44ATK, which blows away Nephenee's ~33 attack with a forged Javelin at level 13 (she can only kill magic users with that). Being able to leave Generals on 2 or 3HP with a Hand Axe is fantastic.

I did say this:

But, admittedly, he 2HKO's everything else, which I'm sure Nephenee can't do

and admit this:

he's probably > Nephenee

Edited December 17, 2010 by Kevin

[Anouleth]

I forgot about the secret book AND the transfer, I'll admit, but spd isn't guaranteed. It's still 4th highest with only a 5% lead over luck.

HP capped is crap. Unless we're throwing a seraph robe at him, that is, and a secret book + seraph robe + bexp is a bit much for an upper mid unit. If not, 51 HP is his maximum HP at this level, assuming he's got 1 level up each and every level.

Boyd can easily get a HP transfer, it caps naturally in FE9 and it's on the list of transfers. So he begins with 50HP.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Zkirsche]

He starts with 45 HP, 45 + 2 = 47.

Edit: ahhh, HP bonus is +5 nvm then

Edited December 17, 2010 by Kevin

[Narga_Rocks]

That's also how Ike(T) starts only one hp and one str from capping those instead of 4 hp away. Having three stats capped in one or two levels is hilarious for bexping the rest of his levels.

[Interceptor]

ITT, convoluted solutions to simple problems.

Boyd(T) has +2 STR from a transfer, a 65% STR growth, and an ATK support. All that he needs is a Hammer, and one or two timely STR procs, and he's pushing the Bitch Button<tm> for an easy OHKO on every General from 3-2 until somewhere in Part 4. There are two Hammers with 20 uses each: the DB does not even want theirs, and Haar's from Part 2 will see only light use. I don't think that's it's a great idea to have Boyd looking for borderline (and they ARE borderline, son) 2HKOs, where he's taking counters from people that 4HKO his shit-show avoid.

The major factor here should be his improvement on other units, and the likelihood of that improvement manifesting itself. If Boyd is running into a situation (I have not run the numbers myself) where he's barely making the required AS with average stats, that's an important consideration for evaluating his newfound combat prowess. Along with the booster and the BEXP, that nobody else can use.

I think Sothe's fine where he is, but I'm not sure that's the response you're looking for from this.

I wasn't actually looking for a second opinion, I was just being ungentlemanly and telling RF that her analysis had been rejected.

[Junkhead]

I recommend Shinon x Boyd.

[Interceptor]

I would advocate BoydxOscar, personally.

They don't need to be supported together in order to make use of the Bond, but it certainly helps things. Oscar can put Boyd's +ATK affinity to good use, and Boyd can use the avoid from Earth. Oscar becomes the go-to Horseslayer guy for when it's needed, and we might be able to afford an Energy Drop to help his offense. Come Part 4, we can split the two of them off from the primary GM army and send them to Hawk, where they will do fine.

Not a match made in heaven, but that's what you get from two Upper Mids. They are solid enough.

[Anouleth]

I recommend Shinon x Boyd.

One of the few GMs that Boyd doesn't have an accelerated support with, great. Plus, Shinon is a weight around Boyd's neck come Part 4. I have no desire to attach a 32 strength, 29 speed character with +attack support and axes to a person with no 1-range.

Gatrie, Ike or Oscar are Boyd's preferred supports. They are all giving durability, they are all accelerated, they all have enemy phase. Boyd (T) can actually be adequate competition with Mia for Ike's support since he has durability problems as well and he's one of the few people who can actually keep up with Ike's offense in Part 4. And Mia won't always be in play, in which case Boyd is pretty much guaranteed it.

[Junkhead]

I would advocate BoydxOscar, personally.

They don't need to be supported together in order to make use of the Bond, but it certainly helps things. Oscar can put Boyd's +ATK affinity to good use, and Boyd can use the avoid from Earth. Oscar becomes the go-to Horseslayer guy for when it's needed, and we might be able to afford an Energy Drop to help his offense. Come Part 4, we can split the two of them off from the primary GM army and send them to Hawk, where they will do fine.

Not a match made in heaven, but that's what you get from two Upper Mids. They are solid enough.

One of the few GMs that Boyd doesn't have an accelerated support with, great. Plus, Shinon is a weight around Boyd's neck come Part 4. I have no desire to attach a 32 strength, 29 speed character with +attack support and axes to a person with no 1-range.

Gatrie, Ike or Oscar are Boyd's preferred supports. They are all giving durability, they are all accelerated, they all have enemy phase. Boyd (T) can actually be adequate competition with Mia for Ike's support since he has durability problems as well and he's one of the few people who can actually keep up with Ike's offense in Part 4. And Mia won't always be in play, in which case Boyd is pretty much guaranteed it.

I think Shinon needs it more, if only because he could 1RKO with it one he gets Silencer. I was not considering Oscar as his possible because he is most likely to take Titania because of the same Mov. Boyd won't keep up unless Oscar is slowing down for him.

In my own play-logged run, you could see how useful Shinon is for clearings despite being locked to phases. In 4-1 he stays behind walls, attacks enemies behind them, and even waits to be attacked, because of Provoke. Boyd doesn't have durability problems upon promotion. 57 HP/25 Def (+2 Def/8 Avo because of Shinon's support) is pretty beast. If you promote him by 3-E you could raise him by having him solo half of the map with Paragon and Adept combo, like I did.

Regarding the speed of the support: What is Boyd doing in early Part 3 chapters? At 3-P and 3-1 he will be raising himself, but mostly by taking kills from others, or chipping. It's easy to get him to a C support by 3-2 if you keep Shinon and Boyd together for a couple of turns between 3-P and 3-1, especially considering the fact Shinon is an excellent chipper because he doubles with decent Atk. And at last, I would like to remind you Paladins Not-Titania suck so much by Part 4, that an Oscar support is hardly worth it, and by considering supporting him with Ike you're just taking away the opportunity for Mia to be supporting him.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Soul

[Soren37]

In other news, Sothe is above Titania, Mia, and Leanne?

We've debated his availability, and it's poor. I'll give him props for his Part 1, because he's the closest thing that the Fail Brigade has to Jeigan before Volug, Tauroneo, LEA and Nailah show up. He can ORKO with Forged Knives, which have his name written all over them. He also has access to the Beastkiller, which I swear the producers put in just to make him somewhat useful. This means he can now mow through 3-6. Except people are beginning to realize that he still needs either some extra Avo or a DEF support, or to be given the Dracoshield, which he probably won't get. He could get a DEF transfer, with natural 15% chance on Random BEXP. I'm not even going to touch Fixed Mode, because then everything gets sent to Uboa Land.

After his two chapters of fame, (1-4 and 3-6), he's sent to the garbage heap due to his growths finally catching up with him, and having a crappy weapon. His knives are weak, his STR is pitiful, and his defenses are terrible. He's forced to go to the Tower, so you might as well have him shovebot...Mick, Snacks, Raisin, and Mia. Ta da.

Titania is still the powerhouse she was in FE9. Sure her caps aren't as great, but she's still quite deadly. She comes at a high base, powerful weapons, and once she's given a Speedwing and a Crown, she goes to town and destroys everything. The best part? Her combat is still golden even in Part 4.

Mia...we all know about Mia.

Leanne's weak, and her availability is poor, and the chapters she has are pitifully short. However, she has her singing.

Would it be possible to drop Sothe? It seems he's kind of overrated when compared to the others. Yes, he's still a great unit in Part 1, but being above Titan? It just gets a bit odd for me.

[dondon151]

The impact that Sothe has on part 1 is far greater than the impact that Titania or Mia have over the entire game.

[Florete]

Would it be possible to drop Sothe? It seems he's kind of overrated when compared to the others. Yes, he's still a great unit in Part 1, but being above Titan? It just gets a bit odd for me.

Not with that comparison. You highly underrate his part 1 and barely said a thing about Titania, Mia, and Leanne. Other than that you mostly said things we already know.

I'd personally say Sothe is more likely to go up than down, but I'm not diving into those waters alone.

EDIT: And what's with this "poor availability" thing? Unless you were referring to the maps he's good in, because he has among the highest availability in the game.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[Colonel M]

...Sothe's Part 3 is a mixed bag, but saying "unnecessary" proves how incompetent you are. Sothe's 3-6 is pretty clutch for a couple of reasons:

- Better offense than some of your units thanks to Beast Killer, which also means no need for Beastfoe

- Torches for +Sight on the map, which helps when planning things like Paragon Jill or Beastfoe Nolan

- 2 Range to kill off untransformed Laguz

- Weaves through terrain nicely

Sothe's 3-6 is "bad" because he can't take the heat defensively like Volug, a trained Nolan, or a trained Aran for example. This doesn't make him by any means terrible since you need some semblance of offense as the goal of the map is routing.

Sothe's worst chapters are 3-12 and 4-P. No, I'm not even joking. After 4-3 you can just keep him on the benches and do nothing with him, or just deploy him as a shove bot. 3-12 is pretty terrible if Sothe doesn't get 24 AS. Now, this is actually possible if Sothe gets some leveling. --/9 Sothe averages 23.6 Spd (with growth + growth formula). Even if Sothe fails to obtain the AS, he can still throw knives at 2 range or defend the allies on the top of the map where the FalcoKnights are. 4-P is all about combat, so obviously he's bad there.

I mean okay, I get it. I like ragging on how much Sothe sucks after Part 1, and I think a lot of other people do. But seriously, he's still pretty damn useful even in utility sense of things, and he can still hold his weight. His 4-3 performance might be finding items, sure, but that's all he needs to do. Hell, even being deployed for shoving in 4-E is not bad considering he doesn't exactly eat up a unit slot until 4-E-4 when he can finally be put to rest and have Nasir or Gareth take his place.

*Sigh*. Someone help me...

EDIT: An alt eh? Well I knew it was a troll, but I felt bored enough to respond.

EDIT2: Shit I'm defending Sothe? Uh um... SOTHE SUX! Yeah, that should cover my back.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Narga_Rocks
removing a quote

[Anouleth]

...Sothe's Part 3 is a mixed bag, but saying "unnecessary" proves how incompetent you are. Sothe's 3-6 is pretty clutch for a couple of reasons:

- Better offense than some of your units thanks to Beast Killer, which also means no need for Beastfoe

- Torches for +Sight on the map, which helps when planning things like Paragon Jill or Beastfoe Nolan

- 2 Range to kill off untransformed Laguz

- Weaves through terrain nicely

He is also responsible for getting us Beastfoe, the most important skill in 3-6.

[Soren37]

Okay. It just seemed a bit odd to me.

[nflchamp]

His 4-3 performance might be finding items, sure, but that's all he needs to do.

This, again, superposes that there are useful items in 4-3.