OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

Probably doesn't need a book even.

Sniper cap is too high. He's 290 off, and I'm cautious about assuming weapon bonuses especially when he's already pretty borderline with capping other stuff.

Not as simple as that, since alterations that raise strength mostly lower speed, but that's only at a glance.

Brom can take an Energy Drop.

Not enough levels.

Geoffrey can take a Dracoshield.

Not enough levels.

Energy Drop +4 levels of a band does Tanith fine.

Again, resource distribution vagueness.

If Ulki can take an Energy Drop and Soren can take a Speedwing, why not Energy Drop for Haar?

I think the most glaring discrepancy is Tormod, but a lot of these non-changes may just be due to lack of impact.

Yeah. Tormod can probably get speed and possibly magic if we let him take both Dusts, but nobody really cares.

[Florete]

Before I go searching through thousands of posts, Anouleth, let me make sure you've read the following:

-Transfer units are assumed in a void. That is, if someone wants to debate Ike (T)'s position, it is assumed he is the only transferred unit on the team. This is to prevent arguments about which units might have been transferred on a team since you can't transfer everyone in one run and allows us to see the general impact a transferred unit has on the game as accurately as possible. However, this does not mean that one unit is allowed all of PoR's stat boosters. Those are already included in the current transfer setup.

I made a post a while back detailing who could cap certain stats with the appropriate boost, and we ended up determining that the 3 who made the most use of it could be assumed to get it. The results are reflected in what you see on the list.

[Anouleth]

Before I go searching through thousands of posts, Anouleth, let me make sure you've read the following:

I made a post a while back detailing who could cap certain stats with the appropriate boost, and we ended up determining that the 3 who made the most use of it could be assumed to get it. The results are reflected in what you see on the list.

Hmm, ok. But in a lot of cases, these units aren't using up all stat boosters, just one. Obviously if a unit tried to take two or three, that would be pretty ridiculous. And it seems pretty arbitrary to just pick the best three units.

Plus, it doesn't add up. Makalov obviously takes one Dracoshield, but Brom, Gatrie and Ike don't need it. I don't see who's getting the Energy Drops either. Ulki obviously, probably Jill, but everyone else there can do with bands and weapons. Well, maybe Rolf, but I don't know if Rolf would be higher priority than Tanith or Brom or Haar.

And I found the post you're referring to, here:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=617696

Edited December 12, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Florete]

Hmm, ok. But in a lot of cases, these units aren't using up all stat boosters, just one. Obviously if a unit tried to take two or three, that would be pretty ridiculous. And it seems pretty arbitrary to just pick the best three units.

The main point was that we can't say "Unit can cap with booster, therefore it should be assumed." Picking the best 3 was because there are two of each booster (3 in the case of Speedwings, so the best 4 there) and since you can transfer a good team but not everyone, it was determined that up to the third best would have a good enough chance of getting it.

Plus, it doesn't add up. Makalov obviously takes one Dracoshield, but Brom, Gatrie and Ike don't need it.

Does Makalov even need one? With the calculations I saved from before, I came to the result that he doesn't. Of course, I barely even know how to read the notes I made on it now.

I don't see who's getting the Energy Drops either. Ulki obviously, probably Jill, but everyone else there can do with bands and weapons. Well, maybe Rolf, but I don't know if Rolf would be higher priority than Tanith or Brom or Haar.

And I found the post you're referring to, here:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=617696

I had actually already found it, but thanks. And it appears there wasn't much discussion because a lot of that isn't actually reflected in the list at all. Going off just that with the idea of the 3 best getting it (4 in Wings case, 2 in Talisman), we could add:

Res for Ike and Mist

Str for Brom

Mag for Tormod and Calill

Skl for Lucia

Spd for Lucia and Tormod

Def for Kieran and Goeffrey

I can see Def for Jill going as well due to the lack of real competition for it (she'd make more use of the bonus than Kieran or Geoffrey). As for the rest of your suggestions, I'll have to look into it sometime. (Or someone else can post the calculations if you want to)

[Anouleth]

I can see Def for Jill going as well due to the lack of real competition for it (she'd make more use of the bonus than Kieran or Geoffrey). As for the rest of your suggestions, I'll have to look into it sometime. (Or someone else can post the calculations if you want to)

I can just summarise it now - Tanith, Shinon, Haar, Tibarn and Naesala can get strength with a Drop, Rolf and Boyd can get skill with a book. To be honest, I'd lean towards any of them except Tibarn over Brom, since even with transfers Brom has serious problems after Part 2 because his speed is just so bad.

I'd also consider Boyd over Lucia for the Secret Book. In both cases, it is really just a way for them to use BEXP earlier.

However, now that I reexamine Tanith, she's barely on the cusp of capping skill in the first place, so I don't think she could cap strength as well without compromising it. 20 points +Drop for Strength, 100 points for Skill. There's just no way to get both in ten levels.

I wouldn't bother with the calculations. I'm sure they're correct.

[nflchamp]

What I'd like to know is why this method of tiering is being called into question NOW, instead of (relatively) LONG AGO.

It was. Why do you think we've got such a thorough amount of arguments for the way we're tiering currently?

[Narga_Rocks]

It was. Why do you think we've got such a thorough amount of arguments for the way we're tiering currently?

Oh please. When has General Spoon ever cared about minor inconveniences like the validity of his complaints?

Anyway, Jill has problems getting str + skl + spd + def. Or more importantly, str + spd + def. Anouleth, show how she can manage to get all three. I don't remember if I determined she can't even with a booster or if it was just without one (and before we started considering them for more than Ike's hp). But since so many things that boost str/def tend to hurt spd, it was seen as unlikely she'd get all 3. Offence is more important than defence when the defence is generally good enough, so str + spd took precedence over str + def. Or spd + def if it is somehow possible.

[Florete]

I can just summarise it now - Tanith, Shinon, Haar, Tibarn and Naesala can get strength with a Drop, Rolf and Boyd can get skill with a book. To be honest, I'd lean towards any of them except Tibarn over Brom, since even with transfers Brom has serious problems after Part 2 because his speed is just so bad.

At a quick glance those do look accurate. Don't know what I did to miss them before. With that in mind I'd put the top 3 candidates for a Drop at Jill, Shinon, and Tanith personally, though Naesala wouldn't be far behind. Maybe with the extra competition Jill can get a Wing instead since she only needed one to cap both and I think we can handle Lucia/Tormod not getting a Spd boost.

I'd also consider Boyd over Lucia for the Secret Book. In both cases, it is really just a way for them to use BEXP earlier.

Agreed.

However, now that I reexamine Tanith, she's barely on the cusp of capping skill in the first place, so I don't think she could cap strength as well without compromising it. 20 points +Drop for Strength, 100 points for Skill. There's just no way to get both in ten levels.

I'd say Str + Spd is better than Skl + Spd anyway.

I wouldn't bother with the calculations. I'm sure they're correct.

I like to be sure.

Anyway, Jill has problems getting str + skl + spd + def. Or more importantly, str + spd + def. Anouleth, show how she can manage to get all three. I don't remember if I determined she can't even with a booster or if it was just without one (and before we started considering them for more than Ike's hp). But since so many things that boost str/def tend to hurt spd, it was seen as unlikely she'd get all 3. Offence is more important than defence when the defence is generally good enough, so str + spd took precedence over str + def. Or spd + def if it is somehow possible.

In the end I am pretty sure she needed a Ring or Wing to allow the capping of Str and Spd, and a Shield to cap Def at all. However, she's high priority for these bonuses, so I'd give it to her.

[Anouleth]

Oh please. When has General Spoon ever cared about minor inconveniences like the validity of his complaints?

Anyway, Jill has problems getting str + skl + spd + def. Or more importantly, str + spd + def. Anouleth, show how she can manage to get all three. I don't remember if I determined she can't even with a booster or if it was just without one (and before we started considering them for more than Ike's hp). But since so many things that boost str/def tend to hurt spd, it was seen as unlikely she'd get all 3. Offence is more important than defence when the defence is generally good enough, so str + spd took precedence over str + def. Or spd + def if it is somehow possible.

She can use a Wyvern Band for +str/def. She needs 130 points for the one and 115 points for the other, 30 levels gets her 150 points.

She's 5 points short in skill and 155 points short in speed. With any anti-armour weapon, she gets 150 points for speed in 30 levels, and she can just use a level with a skl/spd band to get the rest of the way (since she has room to maneuver with her strength and defense).

The only downside is that this kills her HP and leaves her impossible to cap it even with both robes... but that wasn't a consideration anyway.

[General Spoon]

It was. Why do you think we've got such a thorough amount of arguments for the way we're tiering currently?

Obviously I meant why did Anouleth choose now to call it into question.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I remember running the calcs and finding that Jill comes up, like, .05 short of capping str, spd, and def just through natural boosts. The current transfers shouldn't require any stat boosters.

[Soren37]

Reyson's still in Top Tier. After being here for a little while, it seems sort of silly that he's placed so much higher than both Leanne and Rafiel.

For starters, Reyson has roughly the same availability as his siblings. Rafiel only has two chapters of deployment, four for Leanne, and five for Reyson. His availability is about even, so his EXP gains aren't spectacularly high. Especially when he only gains 10 EXP per song, and it's pointless to argue about BEXP or Paragon; other people need it much more than he does.

As for starting levels, Reyson's at 15, Rafiel's at 12, and Leanne's at 5. He has a phenomenal level lead over Leanne, but no one really cares. The only thing he's really used for is Vigor, and even then, he only hits one person at a time. Rafiel can do four no matter what and Leanne can go for two characters at a time. The only time Reyson's changes is when he transforms. He's faster than the other herons, but it'll still take him 8 turns of waiting or 3 battles. We could give him a Laguz Stone or Olivi Grass, but other characters might want it as well, such as Ranulf, Janaff and Ulki.

The only thing that makes Reyson slightly better than the other herons is his base avoid (43), which is the same as Rafiel, his durability (who cares? He'll be dead in 2 hits anyways), his higher base level (we only care about Vigor, anyways), and the fact that he comes with an Elixir (but Rafiel has a Seraph Robe).

If he had to be dropped down, he should go above Leanne. Titan and Mia are extremely useful.

[Anouleth]

For starters, Reyson has roughly the same availability as his siblings. Rafiel only has two chapters of deployment, four for Leanne, and five for Reyson. His availability is about even, so his EXP gains aren't spectacularly high. Especially when he only gains 10 EXP per song, and it's pointless to argue about BEXP or Paragon; other people need it much more than he does.

Who cares about EXP gain for a Heron?

As for starting levels, Reyson's at 15, Rafiel's at 12, and Leanne's at 5. He has a phenomenal level lead over Leanne, but no one really cares. The only thing he's really used for is Vigor, and even then, he only hits one person at a time. Rafiel can do four no matter what and Leanne can go for two characters at a time. The only time Reyson's changes is when he transforms. He's faster than the other herons, but it'll still take him 8 turns of waiting or 3 battles. We could give him a Laguz Stone or Olivi Grass, but other characters might want it as well, such as Ranulf, Janaff and Ulki.

They can want a Laguz Stone all they want. Reyson is still a far better choice for a Laguz Stone than them. They can use Olivi Grass and still do stuff on Player Phase, after all, while Reyson would have to give up his singing to use Grass. Clearly any player with a brain will let Reyson use the Laguz Stones (they're quite common anyway).

And Reyson's higher level isn't meaningless. Reyson can, for example, use Celerity straight away, while Leanne and Rafiel would probably need BEXP to do so.

The only thing that makes Reyson slightly better than the other herons is his base avoid (43), which is the same as Rafiel, his durability (who cares? He'll be dead in 2 hits anyways), his higher base level (we only care about Vigor, anyways), and the fact that he comes with an Elixir (but Rafiel has a Seraph Robe).

Aside from more skill capacity, more movement, can Vigor more units than Leanne, and better availability.

[Soren37]

Who cares about EXP gain for a Heron?

Huh. Thought I stated that.

They can want a Laguz Stone all they want. Reyson is still a far better choice for a Laguz Stone than them. They can use Olivi Grass and still do stuff on Player Phase, after all, while Reyson would have to give up his singing to use Grass. Clearly any player with a brain will let Reyson use the Laguz Stones (they're quite common anyway).

You can buy 6 in 4-E, just before the first floor. No enemies have laguz stones as drops (the search function doesn't like the HM Enemy Stats topic, though). Neal has a 2/3 stone, which will have to be given to Neph, Brom, Heather, Lethe, or Mordecai. Mordecai has a used Olivi Grass, Lethe has a used Laguz Stone, Ranulf has an Olivi Grass. The only people that you can take the items from are Neal, Mordy, Lethe (all used), as well as Kyza. No one's taking stuff from Janaff or Ulki. They're too good to just have them waiting around.

And Reyson's higher level isn't meaningless. Reyson can, for example, use Celerity straight away, while Leanne and Rafiel would probably need BEXP to do so.

Everyone and their Grandma wants Celerity. Haar or Gatrie could use it just as well. Yes Reyson has an amazing utility, but other people could use it just as well, or to a greater effect, such as ferrying or protecting your lines.

Aside from more skill capacity, more movement, can Vigor more units than Leanne, and better availability.

Did you not read my availability thing? Reyson just gets one more chapter than Leanne. No one cares about Rafiel because he's practically invisible. Leanne can always get two. If we do give Reyson the resources to shift faster, then yes, he can hit more. MOV and skill capacity I'll agree with.

[Zkirsche]

Let's not lose track of the transfer discussion, people.

[Florete]

Will cover the stuff Anouleth didn't.

his durability (who cares? He'll be dead in 2 hits anyways),

I care. Being dead in two hits as opposed to one means that if I make a positioning mistake, Reyson will still live. I don't have this kind of luxury with Rafiel and Leanne.

and the fact that he comes with an Elixir (but Rafiel has a Seraph Robe).

Units aren't credited for items they come with.

Huh. Thought I stated that.

You described his problems gaining experience as if it was significant.

No one's taking stuff from Janaff or Ulki. They're too good to just have them waiting around.

I can say the same thing about Reyson.

Everyone and their Grandma wants Celerity. Haar or Gatrie could use it just as well. Yes Reyson has an amazing utility, but other people could use it just as well, or to a greater effect, such as ferrying or protecting your lines.

You're mixing up "wants" with "uses it best." Only in a very specific situation would someone like Haar or Gatrie use Celerity better. Celerity allows Reyson to reach units you have almost anywhere they may be, allowing your team to move that much faster, and allows him to protect himself better with Canto.

Did you not read my availability thing? Reyson just gets one more chapter than Leanne.

Reyson also does a lot more with his availability and is much more likely to be going to Endgame.

[Colonel M]

Reyson also does a lot more with his availability

I'd actually debate that a bit. All three of them are pretty important for their teams.

Rafiel helps with the low turn count clear of 1-E thanks to vigoring 4 different ways, then there's him helping the rout in 1-8. He's also good for one of the hardest chapters in the game (4-4) while being the best Endgame candidate wrt the Herons.

Leanne has a minor use in 2-P, but it's enough to get Marcia or Haar extra EXP, Elincia to heal, or Nealuchi to re-transform. She's also necessary for low turn count clears in 2-2, 2-E, and her Part 4 maps.

Reyson helps a lot with the GMs chapters of course, and there's no denial of that. His durability is at least a saving grace to keep Reyson > Rafiel, but the question is if the tier gap between the three herons is even justified. I strongly disagree with that notion, and I really think that Rafiel and Leanne should move up with his brother than Reyson moving down.

[RNG Princess]

Reyson also has to take a turn to eat a laguz stone for endgame where as Rafiel can easily refresh 4 units on the first turn which is to his advantage. You can also give the boots to Rafiel if celerity doesn't fit him.

[Florete]

I'd actually debate that a bit. All three of them are pretty important for their teams.

I never said they weren't important. They're High tier, after all.

Rafiel helps with the low turn count clear of 1-E thanks to vigoring 4 different ways, then there's him helping the rout in 1-8. He's also good for one of the hardest chapters in the game (4-4) while being the best Endgame candidate wrt the Herons.

1-8 is problematic because your team is too spread out, there's too much terrain for him to try to move through, and the boss is too far away for him to reach that area in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't help that he starts with Volug and Nailah, who are better off running around on their own.

1-E is just too cramped (consistent diamond formations is practically impossible), and his low mobility will make him fall behind.

Reyson helps a lot with the GMs chapters of course, and there's no denial of that. His durability is at least a saving grace to keep Reyson > Rafiel, but the question is if the tier gap between the three herons is even justified. I strongly disagree with that notion, and I really think that Rafiel and Leanne should move up with his brother than Reyson moving down.

I think greater abilities and better opportunities to use them justifies it. I can't see Rafiel and Leanne in Top. They just don't have enough opportunity to put their skills to work.

[dondon151]

No one's taking stuff from Janaff or Ulki. They're too good to just have them waiting around.

I already made a comparison with Laguz Stone allocation a long while back, but I can't be bothered to find it.

You have 1 use of Laguz Stone, and are deciding whether to distribute it on turn 1 to Reyson, Janaff, or Ulki. Let's just assume that Janaff and Ulki are identical.

Janaff or Ulki gets Laguz Stone:

Turn 1:

- Janaff or Ulki moves up to 7, uses Laguz Stone, and is available for enemy phase.

- The hawk who didn't use a Laguz Stone moves up to 7, and uses Olivi Grass. Not available for enemy phase.

- Reyson moves up to 6 and uses Olivi Grass. Reyson cannot Vigor.

Turn 2:

- The stoned hawk can move up to 9 and attack. Available for enemy phase.

- The unstoned hawk can move up to 7 and use Olivi Grass. Not available for enemy phase.

- Reyson moves up to 6 and uses Olivi Grass. Reyson cannot Vigor.

Turn 3:

- The stoned hawk can move up to 9 and attack. Available for enemy phase.

- The unstoned hawk can move up to 7, transform, and attack. Available for enemy phase.

- Reyson can move up to 6, transform, and Vigor 4 units.

Reyson gets Laguz Stone:

Turn 1:

- Janaff and Ulki move up to 7, use Olivi Grass, and are not available for enemy phase.

- Reyson moves up to 6 and uses Laguz Stone. Reyson cannot Vigor.

Turn 2:

- Janaff and Ulki move up to 7, use Olivi Grass, and are not available for enemy phase.

- Reyson move up to 8 and Vigors 4 units.

- If Janaff and/or Ulki were vigored, they can move up to 7, transform, and become available for enemy phase.

So basically, if a hawk uses Laguz Stone, you lose:

- Reyson's Vigor for turn 2

- Unstoned hawk's turn 2 enemy phase

If Reyson uses Laguz Stone, you lose:

- Stoned hawk's turn 1 enemy phase

Now, since you have probably like 4 other combat units, losing turn 1 enemy phase doesn't matter. Losing Reyson's turn 2 Vigor is huge, though.

[Shadow Mir]

1-8 is problematic because your team is too spread out, there's too much terrain for him to try to move through, and the boss is too far away for him to reach that area in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't help that he starts with Volug and Nailah, who are better off running around on their own.

1-E is just too cramped (consistent diamond formations is practically impossible), and his low mobility will make him fall behind.

I thought of saying something to that effect, but didn't.

[Anouleth]

Huh. Thought I stated that.

Well, you didn't. Although EXP gain is still actually useful to Leanne and Rafiel because they want Celerity... just not Reyson.

You can buy 6 in 4-E, just before the first floor. No enemies have laguz stones as drops (the search function doesn't like the HM Enemy Stats topic, though). Neal has a 2/3 stone, which will have to be given to Neph, Brom, Heather, Lethe, or Mordecai. Mordecai has a used Olivi Grass, Lethe has a used Laguz Stone, Ranulf has an Olivi Grass. The only people that you can take the items from are Neal, Mordy, Lethe (all used), as well as Kyza. No one's taking stuff from Janaff or Ulki. They're too good to just have them waiting around.

One from Nealuchi, one from Lethe, one from Kyza, one from Skrimir. That's 11 total uses. If Reyson uses the Laguz Stone in 3-5, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, and 4-2, that's just under half of all available uses, leaving enough to give a few uses to Janaff and Ulki (who are lower priority than Reyson anyway).

Also, what dondon said. Reyson can speed up the transformation of the Hawks on his own.

Everyone and their Grandma wants Celerity. Haar or Gatrie could use it just as well. Yes Reyson has an amazing utility, but other people could use it just as well, or to a greater effect, such as ferrying or protecting your lines.

It's an option that Reyson has that Rafiel and Leanne do not, and they only have 5 move so they will literally be behind everyone.

Did you not read my availability thing? Reyson just gets one more chapter than Leanne. No one cares about Rafiel because he's practically invisible. Leanne can always get two. If we do give Reyson the resources to shift faster, then yes, he can hit more. MOV and skill capacity I'll agree with.

Rafiel has 1-8, which is problematic since he starts on the wrong side of the map (Volug and Nailah alone can clear out the left side of the map in three turns). Leanne has 2-P where she might as well be useless. Reyson is key in all of his maps except like, 3-E, where he can be at least as useful as Leanne in 2-P, probably much more valuable because you're funneling EXP into units that are far better than Marcia.

[Florete]

Let's not lose track of the transfer discussion, people.

Yeah, that.

So, uh...where were we?

[dondon151]

1-E is just too cramped (consistent diamond formations is practically impossible), and his low mobility will make him fall behind.

So you rescue him. I could have gotten 3 full diamonds on 4 Vigors, but it's not a big deal if Rafiel can only Vigor 2 units at once on a ledge.

[Anouleth]

Yeah, that.

So, uh...where were we?

Tanith can get a strength transfer (at the cost of her skill transfer), Jill can get a defense transfer, and Boyd can get a skill transfer.