OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Well, I don't want the move done until someone shows why what Fiona does is enough to make her not only > Lyre (don't get confused now), but >> Lyre.

1-7: I'm not exactly sure how it works, but apparently her rescuing can be useful here.

1-E: I could see it being useful here, as well. At least more useful than Lyre Shoving or something ever is.

3-6: Lower Laguz gauge.

3-12: Rescue.

3-13: Rescue and block ledges.

Personally, I believe it's enough. It's not a lot of utility on its own, sure (that's why she's still Bottom), but compare it to Lyre's absolutely nothing.

[Narga_Rocks]

Every FE is like that. Deal no damage = get 1 experience. At least in the ones I've played.

Actually, fe5 is different. Even things like getting attacked by a ballista get you 10 exp. I think. Which makes the Elite Sword kinda funny for that. I don't remember if you said you'd played that.

I like fe5 for that.

Felt like doing something today. Speak up while I'm still in the mood.

Kurth and Renning moved down, and Renning > Kurth. This would need to be changed if we are going to go crazy over unworthiness of deployment, since at least Kurth is free. However, Renning stomps Kurth into the ground if they are both deployed, so not sure what to do there. Bastian was allowed above them because he can actually Meteor something in 4-5 to clear a path for Tibarn.

And Lyre got her own tier. Doing nothing ever, being the hardest unit to raise even inefficiently, Fiona having some valuable utility in random chapters, and stuff like that might as well be enough for her own tier. Even if you ignore deployment costs and just send them both in while trying to keep your turncounts the same as if you didn't have them, her exp gains and starting mt and need for gauge are just that bad. If a unit is weakened enough for her to KO, it's also probably weak enough to run away. She's stuck with 2 player phases out of 3 and using the last to grass. Doesn't really do much at that rate and takes forever to reach S strike and a decent level.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

Bastian was allowed above them because he can actually Meteor something in 4-5 to clear a path for Tibarn.

It's guaranteed on the first turn, too. Non-random enemies turn 1 FTW.

And Lyre got her own tier.

Could you move her above the joke tier. I know that she's bad, but it annoys me.

[Narga_Rocks]

Could you move her above the joke tier. I know that she's bad, but it annoys me.

All three of them at least give you experience. I think one of them can even give you exp twice. Actually, Lekain and Hetzel, though Hetzel is quite a pain to try for.

but fine.

[General Spoon]

eh, 0.000000000000000000000000001 stuff

There is a name for this, and it is ε (epsilon). Its a really small positive quantity.

[Florete]

Actually, fe5 is different. Even things like getting attacked by a ballista get you 10 exp. I think. Which makes the Elite Sword kinda funny for that. I don't remember if you said you'd played that.

I played a few chapters of it, then fell out.

All three of them at least give you experience. I think one of them can even give you exp twice. Actually, Lekain and Hetzel, though Hetzel is quite a pain to try for.

Septimus would have to stay below Lyre anyway. He'd be too afraid of her.

[General Spoon]

I played a few chapters of it, then fell out.

The experience given in FE5 (even on non-elite) is ridiculous. You get like ten experience for being attacked w/out being able to counterattack.

[Interceptor]

I'd love to hear Interceptor's opinion on this though ^_^.

I've been reading along, but I'm afraid that I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said. Red Fox has already made the case in an entirely adequate fashion.

Generally I don't care for the "most efficient only" style of argument, but when it comes to Lyre vs. anybody, that doesn't really even enter into it. No matter what style of play that you run through the simulation, someone like Fiona is pretty much always going to be a more useful character, sometimes significantly so. The whole "is this really worth a tier break?" argument is pretty subjective, personally I don't care one way or the other as long as Lyre is properly underneath units that she is worse than.

[RNG Princess]

I've been reading along, but I'm afraid that I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said. Red Fox has already made the case in an entirely adequate fashion.

Generally I don't care for the "most efficient only" style of argument, but when it comes to Lyre vs. anybody, that doesn't really even enter into it. No matter what style of play that you run through the simulation, someone like Fiona is pretty much always going to be a more useful character, sometimes significantly so. The whole "is this really worth a tier break?" argument is pretty subjective, personally I don't care one way or the other as long as Lyre is properly underneath units that she is worse than.

Thanks for the reply Interceptor :).

I think sometimes a tier gap is needed between characters just to measure which has better combat and which is easier to raise. For example its a lot easier to raise Pelleas than it is to Astrid/Meg although they both deal chip damage and have no deployment costs. I think the same applies to Fiona and Lyre, Fiona has combat and Lyre has no combat and imo Fiona is also easier to raise than Lyre because she has more opportunity (1 level of BEXP + seal + paragon, forges, etc).

Edited November 26, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Zkirsche]

1-7: I'm not exactly sure how it works, but apparently her rescuing can be useful here.

1-E: I could see it being useful here, as well. At least more useful than Lyre Shoving or something ever is.

3-6: Lower Laguz gauge.

3-12: Rescue.

3-13: Rescue and block ledges.

Anyone can block ledges and there's plenty of people to do so.

3-6 is legit.

3-12 and 1-7 are situational.

1-E she shouldn't even be fielded.

So are 3 chapters of incredibly minor utility really worth a tier gap? Rescuing <> tier gap.

which is easier to raise.

Neither should be raised so moot.

Fiona has combat

Fiona never has useful combat until endgame bar lowering gauge.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Kevin

[Florete]

Anyone can block ledges and there's plenty of people to do so.

Fiona is one of them. Lyre isn't. And the number of units you have to block ledges with, aside from Rescue-dropping all the NPCs, which takes time, is actually quite limited given how many spaces there are to plug.

3-12 and 1-7 are situational.

I don't know how 1-7 works, but if it's the way previously described then it isn't really situational at all. It just depends on if you want to do it that way. 3-12 is situational, yes, but it can be a life-saving situation. I would know; I've had it happen.

1-E she shouldn't even be fielded.

Maybe, maybe not. Someone would need to argue a case for her Rescuing being > whoever else would be fielded. I could see it happening but wouldn't try it myself.

Fiona never has useful combat until endgame bar lowering gauge.

Did you just admit that, if raised, Fiona will have useful combat at Endgame? Because Lyre won't.

[Joerachi]

Maybe, maybe not. Someone would need to argue a case for her Rescuing being > whoever else would be fielded. I could see it happening but wouldn't try it myself.

You've got 9 deployment slots. 5 Because Nolan, Jill, Laura and Nailah are definitely coming. Zihark, and BK are probably coming. 3 spots. Now we have: Edward,Leo,Meg,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim,Vika,and Rafiel to choose from. lolmeg lolvika. Edward,Leo,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim,and Rafiel. Rafiel helps Nailah bang those thieves. 2 spots. Edward,Leo,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim. This is taking into account Taking into account Edward isn't being used. Muarim is probably the most useful out of these five. If Edward is being used, we can end it here. Tormod is more useful than Fiona ever will. He has the same move as Fiona and targets res. She should never be coming.

[Narga_Rocks]

You've got 9 deployment slots. 5 Because Nolan, Jill, Laura and Nailah are definitely coming. Zihark, and BK are probably coming. 3 spots. Now we have: Edward,Leo,Meg,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim,Vika,and Rafiel to choose from. lolmeg lolvika. Edward,Leo,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim,and Rafiel. Rafiel helps Nailah bang those thieves. 2 spots. Edward,Leo,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim. This is taking into account Taking into account Edward isn't being used. Muarim is probably the most useful out of these five. If Edward is being used, we can end it here. Tormod is more useful than Fiona ever will. He has the same move as Fiona and targets res. She should never be coming.

Tormod can't rescue drop, at least not with the ability to re-move (plus he has less wt than her). I think you are missing the point. The question isn't whether her combat is any good. Obviously it's terrible. The question is whether someone can come up with a plan such that an extra unit able to rescue drop is worth more than an extra combat unit. Clearly you don't have the imagination to make the attempt so don't bother making the case against Fiona.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

You've got 9 deployment slots. 5 Because Nolan, Jill, Laura and Nailah are definitely coming. Zihark, and BK are probably coming. 3 spots. Now we have: Edward,Leo,Meg,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim,Vika,and Rafiel to choose from. lolmeg lolvika. Edward,Leo,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim,and Rafiel. Rafiel helps Nailah bang those thieves. 2 spots. Edward,Leo,Fiona,Tormod,Muarim. This is taking into account Taking into account Edward isn't being used. Muarim is probably the most useful out of these five. If Edward is being used, we can end it here. Tormod is more useful than Fiona ever will. He has the same move as Fiona and targets res. She should never be coming.

Why is Laura definitely coming? Why is Nolan definitely coming? Or Zihark, or Edward, or Leo? Why is Aran not mentioned in your post even once?

Vika is almost guaranteed, anyway, since she can rescue-drop with flight.

[Narga_Rocks]

Vika is almost guaranteed, anyway, since she can rescue-drop with flight.

Well, not every turn, but at least she manages to do that some of the time and with 8 move (Jill only has 6 or 7). She has 14 wt transformed, though, and doesn't have to drop people she can no longer carry if she untransforms (way to go IS). Can't pick up Nolan or Aran or Volug or Muarim or Nailah, though.

[Anouleth]

Well, not every turn, but at least she manages to do that some of the time and with 8 move (Jill only has 6 or 7). She has 14 wt transformed, though, and doesn't have to drop people she can no longer carry if she untransforms (way to go IS). Can't pick up Nolan or Aran or Volug or Muarim or Nailah, though.

She can't rescue the Black Knight as well. Picking up Rafiel is what I use her for while Jill takes the BK. Nailah and Muarim and Volug don't even need to be rescued because their movement is good enough.

[RNG Princess]

I think Fiona is a poor choice to be deployed on 1-E. She can't climb ledges and has to go to both extremes of the map just to climb to every layer. Go all the way right, go up the stairs move far to the left, move up the stairs and then move up to the top layer and drop Micaiah (I assume thats who you want to drop). The trouble is that on her way to climb the first stairs she's probably going to need some shielding from the two fighter recruits and on the first turn the knight/myrm can kill her if you don't deal with them.

Vika is the better ferry bot, there should be a few uses left from the last olivi grass and you can buy some more on the shop for 1-E iirc. The good thing about her is that she has flight and the path she's taking is going to be cleared anyways.

The difference of that chapter vs 1-7 for Fiona is that in 1-7 all the characters take the same route to go to the boss (excluding Sothe, Tormod, Muarim, and Vika) so the path is going to be cleared for Fiona anyways.

Although for 1-E maybe Muarim can be her shield.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

I think Fiona is a poor choice to be deployed on 1-E. She can't climb ledges and has to go to both extremes of the map just to climb to every layer. Go all the way right, go up the stairs move far to the left, move up the stairs and then move up to the top layer and drop Micaiah (I assume thats who you want to drop). The trouble is that on her way to climb the first stairs she's probably going to need some shielding from the two fighter recruits and on the first turn the knight/myrm can kill her if you don't deal with them.

Vika is the better ferry bot, there should be a few uses left from the last olivi grass and you can buy some more on the shop for 1-E iirc. The good thing about her is that she has flight and the path she's taking is going to be cleared anyways.

The difference of that chapter vs 1-7 for Fiona is that in 1-7 all the characters take the same route to go to the boss (excluding Sothe, Tormod, Muarim, and Vika) so the path is going to be cleared for Fiona anyways.

Although for 1-E maybe Muarim can be her shield.

This is likely true. Going side to side is a lot. She probably won't even get done the second staircase before it's time to seize. At the most she can perhaps help some of the people attacking over ledges. One attacks, she rescues and another kills. Or something. Unless this somehow makes a significant difference to Nolan's exp gains (I doubt it) this isn't a particularly useful service.

She's basically stuck with 1-7 and part 3, however that seems like enough for a tier gap over literally nothing.

[RNG Princess]

Kurth seems to fit bottom tier imo. What he can do is no different than what Astrid/Meg/Fiona are doing.

He cant be raised either unless you dump loads of BEXP on him and then he'd probably fight in two chapters at most. 4-E-1 and 4-E-5.

4-E-2/3 depends on Ike and whoever kills the wishblade guy and Dragon king. 4-E-4 hes too far to make a difference.

At best he's better off wielding smite so he can shove.

Imo he belongs right below Meg

because Meg has Part 3 and 1-4, 1-5, and maybe 1-6 in her favor.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Soren37]

Kurth has some situational use in 4-E-3 with all the dragons. None of them will attack him, so you can use him and Ena to block off chokepoints so you can get your team ready to rum rampant.

It's still less than Meg, though.

[Narga_Rocks]

Kurth has some situational use in 4-E-3 with all the dragons. None of them will attack him, so you can use him and Ena to block off chokepoints so you can get your team ready to rum rampant.

Unfortunately a lot of these people like 1-turning that chapter. Or at least 2 turning. It's a shame since I really love routing that chapter.

I wonder if a quickest rout tier list would have any major differences. Though I wouldn't enjoy routing 4-5. Too many laguz in far off places that are better ignored even if you are going for a high exp clear.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Joerachi]

Why is Laura definitely coming? Why is Nolan definitely coming? Or Zihark, or Edward, or Leo? Why is Aran not mentioned in your post even once?

Laura is healing, DB wants every bit of it. Give me a reason Nolan and Zihark isn't. I said Edward if he is being used. I said nothing about Leo coming. I forgot Aran.

Are we done?

Vika is almost guaranteed, anyway, since she can rescue-drop with flight.

*Why Fiona isn't coming.*

[Florete]

Give me a reason Nolan and Zihark isn't.

Why don't you give a reason why they are definitely coming? They aren't forced, and neither are they my best combatants.

[Joerachi]

Because they are doing what Meg and Leo can't. Being useful.

[dondon151]

I recall in my 6 turn strat, I had BK, Tormod, Muarim, Vika, Rafiel, Zihark, Nailah, Laura, Jill in the non-forced slots. Tormod, Zihark, and Laura basically just cleared out the bottom.