Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Dat Nick]

I'm telling you that in most chapters you can field better units in all your slots, even if it's just random prepromos like Innes.

And I'm telling YOU that since these units are still mediocre/bad even after their period of suck, why the hell is now the only time you're saying "Oh they can be replaced with better units?" The problem exists for Marisa throughout her entire career, not just during her worst point.

[CATS]

And I'm telling YOU that since these units are still mediocre/bad even after their period of suck, why the hell is now the only time you're saying "Oh they can be replaced with better units?"

Eh? What do you mean?

The problem exists for Marisa throughout her entire career, not just during her worst point.

Yeah, that's why she's bottom, like we decided already.

Are you trying to make some sort of a point here? Or just talking? I can't really tell anymore.

[Colonel M]

Got some C9 stats. Anyone know an easy way to organize the stuff? Unfortunately I had to write it all down by hand and have to type it. Guess I can just type for each individual class and search through it but seeing if there's a shortcut (Notepad preferably).

[Mekkah]

Ross has to go through a huge period of suck in order to do anything. If you people say Marisa sucks too much to gain any Exp when she first joins, then Ross sure as hell isn't getting any. Marisa is 2-3HKO'd, but Ross is always 2HKO'd, and sometimes ORKO'd. And he's like, 4-5RKO'ing the enemies, compared to Marisa killing most things in just two rounds.

It's not about "sucking too much to gain EXP". This is never the case. It's about the opportunity cost of getting her that EXP. The suck period for Ross is a lot shorter due to his insanely high EXP gain, being easier to hit things without being a detriment thanks to Hatchet (also allows him to skip on the healing, which Marisa requires to keep going unless she can kill an enemy in one hit), etc.

You also only get one other axe user earlygame, so Ross is useful to have for getting semi-reliable avo against Knights and stuff.

smash made a pretty comparison a page or two back that seemed to say Ross >>> to me.

[CATS]

It's not about "sucking too much to gain EXP". This is never the case. It's about the opportunity cost of getting her that EXP.

Indeed. I was simply pointing that out for Slize's benefit, because he said earlier in the topic that "Marisa is basically so awful she can't be trained."

The suck period for Ross is a lot shorter due to his insanely high EXP gain, being easier to hit things without being a detriment thanks to Hatchet (also allows him to skip on the healing, which Marisa requires to keep going unless she can kill an enemy in one hit), etc.

While Ross has 2 range, he's also not doubling, so enemies have to be weakened alot more before he can finish them.

And while his initial Exp gains are alot higher than Marisa's initial Exp gains, he also has a considerably deeper hole to climb out of, as he's doing comparatively worse than Marisa when he first joins.

You also only get one other axe user earlygame, so Ross is useful to have for getting semi-reliable avo against Knights and stuff.

Alot of the people who would care about getting hit by Knights (Franz, Gilliam, Seth, Garcia already have perfectly good defense and don't mind taking a counter) are also able to hit them at 2 range anyways (Vanessa, Lute, Artur, Neimi). Then we have the 3 swordies (Josh, Eirika, Colm) who have to take counters and don't enjoy them, but 2 of those 3 are atleast one-rounding Knights (Rapier + Armorslayer), while a L1 Fighter Ross w/ C Garcia isn't able to consistently 2HKO them.

Hell, Ross even sucks at doubling Knights. His 10/1 Spd is 5.7, while Knights can manage 2 Spd. He has ~47% odds of not having enough Spd to consistently double Knights. Fail.

So yeah, Ross isn't some kind of magical raep-in-a-can against Knights/lance enemies in general. More like he just doesn't suck quite as much against them.

smash made a pretty comparison a page or two back that seemed to say Ross >>> to me.

I refuted that comparison, and my response was never countered. Let me dig it up again. Here's smash's post with Ross's supports removed, as I explained why supports are little help to his case:

Also, Dozla's midgame win isn't terribly large is considerable. In fact, let me redo my Ross vs base Dozla comparison, but throwing in out B Garcia this time. Raymond says Garcia is fair game, so...

10/8 Fighter Ross, B Garcia

Iron axe

23.0 atk, 7.8 AS, 99.2 hit, 4.0 crit - - 30.0 avo, 28.2 hp, 7.0 def, 4.2 res, 14.4 critavo - - 11 con, 5 move

20/1 Dozla

Steel axe

27.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 88.8 hit, 20.3 crit - - 22.0 avo, 43.0 hp, 11.0 def, 6.0 res, 4.0 critavo - - 16 con, 6 move

I'm not seeing a huge win for Dozla, but he's definitely throwing Ross around. Their offense is not comparable as Dozla is winning at both Atk and AS and even Crit (though again, I don't like Dozla's hit with steel axe--but Dozla can just use Iron, have the same hit as Ross, and still have more Atk), and Dozla wins durability by a good bit (~15 Hp, 4 Def, ~2 Res against 8 Avo). He can probably take 2-3 more hits, although Ross is less worried about getting critted, which does matter a little, but really not much at all.

Speaking of the CEV point, in Ch 12, I'm seeing only one enemy type that manages to break 4 crit, and that would be the Mauthe Doogs. They also have only 12-14 Atk (I'm seeing mostly 12's), and such low Atk means that the worth of Dozla's Def lead is also amplified. A Mauthe Doog with 13 Atk does the same damage to Dozla with a crit as it does to Ross with a normal hit. Dozla could face 100 crit against that enemy and still be more durable. Then there's a random Bonewalker with a Killing Edge, but Ross obviously faces a critrate from him aswell, and if Ross gets critted he's OHKO'd, so it's never safe for him to fight that guy, whereas if Dozla gets critted he just loses about half his health. So there goes that argument.

Now a little down the line... since Ross is 13 levels lower, it sounds fair to say that Ross gains 7 levels in the time it takes Dozla to gain 3. If they kill, say, a level 12 enemy, 10/8/0 Ross would get... 44 exp? For the kill. 20/1 Dozla would get 14 if my calculations are correct. Of course as Ross closes the level lead, the difference in exp gained shrinks, so this sounds fair to me.

10/15/0 Fighter Ross, A Garcia

Iron axe

26.5 atk, 9.9 AS, 105.4 hit, 5.3 crit - - 37.0 avo, 33.1 hp, 8.8 def, 5.6 res, 17.2 critavo

20/4 Dozla

Steel axe

28.5 atk, 10.2 AS, 91.3 hit, 20.8 crit - - 25.3 avo, 45.5 hp, 11.9 def, 6.8 res, 4.9 critavo

Ross is winning already, except, not really. Offense is a win for Dozla. Ross has 1 point more pure Str, but Dozla is able to raise his Atk by using stronger weapons without completely murdering his AS (Ross using Steel has Gilliam-like AS), and there's also that 15-16 crit to consider. Ross also wins in hit, by uh, 4 points, if anyone cares. Defensively, 12 avo and lolcritavo vs 12 HP, 3 def, 1 res. Dozla still wins defense.

It takes until Ross promotes before he can start winning. If that's at Ch 15, and Ross wins after he promotes, then Ross is winning for 7 chaps. Whereas, counting from the time Ross joins until his promotion as a win for Dozla (since before Dozla joins, Ross is stuck in his period of suck), Dozla is winning for 13 chapters. Nearly twice as many.

This is without considering the fact that, like Marisa, Ross probably should not be trained in the first place as even after being trained you have many better units available to you. As compared to Dozla, who can help for a while without ever needing any prior training.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

If all it really takes for Ross to win from there is promotion, couldn't you just promote him right there and have him start winning?

Also not sure why he's lacking supports.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[CATS]

Well, promotion from L20. Not sure how he might be doing with his 10/15/1 stats. However, I covered both of those issues earlier:

Garcia means more competition for good axes. They might actually be better off if he's not used. Yeah, Ross gets those support bonuses fast and early, but how much do they actually do for him? Not very much. His problem is Spd, not Atk, and the extra Avo is none too useful as his enemy phase is mostly non-existent until he can gain some ground in his base class. By the time those bonuses start making a significant difference, it won't be long before you start getting the h4x axes, and then Ross's offense will go down by quite abit as compared to what it would be had you not used Garcia, since now he no longer has a free claim to the Brave Axe or Garm.

Also, Garcia = more competition for the Speedwings that Ross so desperately wants. Not to mention Hero Crests. Joshua and Gerik are both high tier already, and you only get two Hero Crests before Ch 15, and only 3 in total, and Knight Crests can already be an issue on Eir Route. Ross could just go Pirate instead, but then Colm gets pissed off.

And "because Raymond said so" is hardly a good enough reason to assume Garcia gets used for the whole game. I believe you [smash] yourself said earlier in the topic that Garcia becomes meh after earlygame. He won't be good again until lategame when he can start using Garm, except that here he actually has competition for that, so maybe he won't become good again ever. I don't see why he's getting used.

Ross's only other serious option would be Gerik, but Gerik is in high demand support-wise on Eir Route. Innes and Saleh both already want to support him, and Gerik probably has only enough room for a single B to give to one of them, since Gerik himself would obviously like to devote attention to Tethys before anyone else. Then on Eph Route Gerik joins so late that the support is unable to do much. It takes until like Ch 16 or 17 before you even see a C. Bleh.

Supports aren't much help to Ross. And those comparisons you did are obviously looking different when you take away all that extra Atk, Hit and Avo from Ross.

Also, I notice that Eph Gerik is still over Kyle, when someone proved otherwise a while back. I also notice that there's still a tier gap between Kyle and Forde.

Edited September 4, 2009 by CATS

[grandjackal]

Quite a few bold statements you made, CATS. Earlygame, I just went through. I can say pretty easily that unless you're Seth, Eirika, Vanessa and Colm, you aren't doubling. Not for a good while, anyways. Certainly not on average. This includes Franz, so all we really have is Seth, Eirika (the enemy of which is puling around hte 40s kind of hit, she's none too durable), and Vanessa (who has obvious problems with axers). Ross gains about 36 exp just for hitting (quite a bit more for a kill). Just on an average playthrough, got him to "tier 1" by Serafew. Earlygame he's entitled to a kill here and there, since the only one ORKOing is Seth. He's getting to tier 1 in a reasonable time.

As for supports, well Garcia is pretty much garunteed to be used early on due to lack of other options, as we have few for a good while and he's forced anyways. Relatively fast, firexfire is godly. Extra power and crit is nice for both, but hit is another important factor. See, it lets them hit sword users with greater accuracy. It can really help because this means they'd basically have no trouble killing things when they come their way. This is especially for Ross, due to Hatchet letting him do so at range. I'd also say it helps quite a bit, as this isn't like most other FEs. There are other enemies in this game that aren't lance users. Either way, Ross and Garcia are garunteed to have a support on some level until we would just rather not have Garcia anymore. I mean srsly, why use someone like Neimi or Gilliam when you got Garcia?

I will say that Dozla's in fact underrated however. In my current play through at base, he is annihilating chapter 10 Eirika route. For a guy who just shows up, he is still pretty damn impressive. So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I can't say for sure until we have stats, but I'd say that Dozla is not quite as good as Ross. Ross's period of suck has a way of ending relatively early, due to his insane leveling rate. He's not sucking forever, as seems to be implied. I do agree though that Dozla should rise. Srsly, he's pretty awesome for at least a while.

As for pissing Colm off, do note that Colm doesn't need the Ocean Crest to be useful. He won't exactly be heartbroken over it, especially since neither Assassin nor Rogue are impressive combat classes.

Speaking of pirate, there are some maps of which that can be of use. Waterside Renvall he could sneak up to the front door for a double prong offensive with Vanessa, he can easier pass through the twists and turns of Fluorspar's map, Binks's map he can help save the houses by distracting the pirates. He will have good hit, thanks to his Hatchet. It's also a terrain of which he is the sole benefitter of until Dozla shows up. There are other maps that can be accounted for for this, but by then I'm sure both he and the Doz coexist. All Colm does with it is no longer needs lockpicks. This of which A. You have enough of for basically all the game, and B. By the time you promote him at 20 (since any earlier I'd imagine kills Str he would need), Rennac shows up regardless.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dat Nick]

Are you trying to make some sort of a point here?

What I'm doing is correcting your constant incorrect assumptions about negative utility because it's flooding several tier topics with useless bullshit [Rebecca and Bartre in Upper mid ] and it's really gotta stop. About Marisa, yes. She's being penalized enough for being a shitty fighter. There's no need to make her look worse than what she's already considered, because if you're going to go with the "could have fielded a better unit" logic, the tier list would halt at High/Upper mid anyway.

[Jaybee]

And Ross has 1-2 range with his Hatchet, unlike Marisa who has to use Light Brand/Runesword/Wind Sword. If Ross attacks first and someone else kills before moving forward, he's out of danger.

Any more opinions on Myrrh vs Tana?

[Rewjeo]

The wind sword only comes with Ismaire, I believe, and I don't think you can get the Runesword outside of the Tower/Ruins, and I don't think there's any way to get the Light Brand, either. Of course I may be wrong, but I'm almost positive that I'm not.

[Fei Mao]

The wind sword only comes with Ismaire, I believe, and I don't think you can get the Runesword outside of the Tower/Ruins, and I don't think there's any way to get the Light Brand, either. Of course I may be wrong, but I'm almost positive that I'm not.

Actually you can get a light brand in story mode but you have to save 6 or more worthless knight npcs in chapter 19.

[Dat Nick]

It's still a piece of shit unless they changed the mechanics around, so I don't see it mattering much, if at all.

[grandjackal]

Actually I think Karlyle drops his wind sword.

As for the Light Brand, it would still be a decent weapon. It can counter, endgame monsters are either dark magic or axe users. It's a pretty defensive weapon considering.

[Jaybee]

Nah, he doesn't. I tried and it didn't work. I ended up wasting it with Seth while I support abused.

[CATS]

What I'm doing is correcting your constant incorrect assumptions about negative utility because it's flooding several tier topics with useless bullshit [Rebecca and Bartre in Upper mid ] and it's really gotta stop.

That wasn't a serious suggestion, and you're quite silly if you thought it was. I was pointing that out to show where the tier list goes if negative utility is ignored; not saying that it should actually be ignored. Quite the opposite.

About Marisa, yes. She's being penalized enough for being a shitty fighter. There's no need to make her look worse than what she's already considered, because if you're going to go with the "could have fielded a better unit" logic, the tier list would halt at High/Upper mid anyway.

Earlier you said that you weren't denying the existence of negative utility. Yet, the fact that you could have fielded a better unit is the exact definition of negative utility, and people such as dondon wanted to ignore it precisely because they thought it would result in the tier list ending at high tier. What exactly is your opinion on the matter?

Not surprisingly, I still can't really tell what your point is, if indeed you are trying to make any sort of a point here at all.

Quite a few bold statements you made, CATS. Earlygame, I just went through. I can say pretty easily that unless you're Seth, Eirika, Vanessa and Colm, you aren't doubling. Not for a good while, anyways. Certainly not on average. This includes Franz, so all we really have is Seth, Eirika (the enemy of which is puling around hte 40s kind of hit, she's none too durable), and Vanessa (who has obvious problems with axers). Ross gains about 36 exp just for hitting (quite a bit more for a kill). Just on an average playthrough, got him to "tier 1" by Serafew. Earlygame he's entitled to a kill here and there, since the only one ORKOing is Seth. He's getting to tier 1 in a reasonable time.

What was your turn count?

As for supports, well Garcia is pretty much garunteed to be used early on due to lack of other options, as we have few for a good while and he's forced anyways. Relatively fast, firexfire is godly. Extra power and crit is nice for both, but hit is another important factor. See, it lets them hit sword users with greater accuracy. It can really help because this means they'd basically have no trouble killing things when they come their way. This is especially for Ross, due to Hatchet letting him do so at range. I'd also say it helps quite a bit, as this isn't like most other FEs. There are other enemies in this game that aren't lance users. Either way, Ross and Garcia are garunteed to have a support on some level until we would just rather not have Garcia anymore. I mean srsly, why use someone like Neimi or Gilliam when you got Garcia?

Indeed, they may be able to nab a C during the earlygame. But then Garcia gets dropped before Dozla shows up (he's probably hitting the bench around Ch 8 or Ch 10, as those are the chaps where you get new groups of good units).

As for pissing Colm off, do note that Colm doesn't need the Ocean Crest to be useful. He won't exactly be heartbroken over it, especially since neither Assassin nor Rogue are impressive combat classes.

I mean, Colm still wants to promote just like any other unit, and Ross taking the game's only Ocean Seal means that Colm now has to use the Ch 15 Master Seal, which you may need for one of your Cavs already.

I can't say for sure until we have stats, but I'd say that Dozla is not quite as good as Ross. Ross's period of suck has a way of ending relatively early, due to his insane leveling rate. He's not sucking forever, as seems to be implied.

Nah, not forever. Just for most if not all of the time before Dozla joins.

[grandjackal]

What was your turn count?

For all of earlygame? Well I'm not sure as rarely I keep track, but I can garuntee you I didn't take more than 10-15 turns on any of these chapters.

Indeed, they may be able to nab a C during the earlygame. But then Garcia gets dropped before Dozla shows up (he's probably hitting the bench around Ch 8 or Ch 10, as those are the chaps where you get new groups of good units).

I see Gerik, and it's route dependent. I could see Garcia actually quite a bit better than Gerik in Ephraim's route.

I mean, Colm still wants to promote just like any other unit, and Ross taking the game's only Ocean Seal means that Colm now has to use the Ch 15 Master Seal, which you may need for one of your Cavs already.

SURELY there are better combatants than puny Colm, yah? I'm sure we won't miss a swordie with 12 Str.

Nah, not forever. Just for most if not all of the time before Dozla joins.

Dozla's very comparative to a level 12 tier 1 Ross. In fact, Ross is technically superior offensively due to 1 more speed and 1 more Str, along with more Luck giving him a 2 hit lead over Dozla, along with a firexfire support (I got it to A by the time Dozla arrived in Eirika's route), which gives Ross 19 crit (as opposed to Dozla's 20), as if he had 20 Str (as opposed to Dozla's 16), 51 avoid (as opposed to Dozla's 22), the hit lead. Dozla does have a whopping 12 HP and 2 defense lead, but you'd be surprised how long that Garcia support can last since you yourself say Garcia's at least sticking around till chapter 10. By then, I could say Ross is about level 15. I promote him to Berserker, I get this.

37 HP, 19 Str, 11 Skill, 11 Speed, 17 Luck, 12 Def, 6 Res

Dozla basically needs to be level 9 to beat this. On top of this, Ross could then switch supports over to said superior unit-Gerik. Last I checked, he was short on B options. However, I could also wait till like level 18 or so, since unpromoted he'd have a faster levelign speed anwyays and the time it would take would be rather negligeable. If I get him to 20, Dozla basically cannot win from there on.

Hell forbid we decide to keep Garcia along with using Gerik. Garcia makes a decent hero. Sure not the best, but decent. Weirder on top of that is he also supports Dozla, who would love the hit, crit and power up. Garcia in exchange once A Ross B Dozla powered him up at 20 promoted hero, we basically get this.

40HP, 19+4Str, 15 Skill, 12 Speed, 9 Luck, 11+1 Def, 5 Res

34+20 hit, 7+25 Crit, 33+25 avoid

I wouldn't say that's bad at all. Say Gerik is better due to insta-promote, I'll say Garcia is capable of around level 15 due to high base level when Gerik shows up. At that point, they're practically equal outside of what at that point would be superfluous speed. Difference is, Garcia's already got a support built up, and has more than a single option to further help him out.

[Dat Nick]

I was pointing that out to show where the tier list goes if negative utility is ignored; not saying that it should actually be ignored.

Except that isn't where it goes. Rebecca and Bartre are where they are because they suck and contribute little, and stay that way for most of the game. They aren't there because of negative utility, they're there because they have almost no positive utility. Jointime is not an advantage when you suck.

Earlier you said that you weren't denying the existence of negative utility. Yet, the fact that you could have fielded a better unit is the exact definition of negative utility, and people such as dondon wanted to ignore it precisely because they thought it would result in the tier list ending at high tier.

Because, well, it's true. It's stupid to penalize any unit for hogging a slot a better unit could use as even some people in high tier are victim to this. Marisa is already being penalized enough for being a shitty unit. What's the point in punishing her for being a shitty unit again?

Not surprisingly, I still can't really tell what your point is, if indeed you are trying to make any sort of a point here at all.

I'm not making any point, I'm telling you to stop blowing negative utility out of proportion.

SURELY there are better combatants than puny Colm, yah?

Colm isn't puny. This guy actually has combat utility due to his lol EXP gain. 4 base isn't good, but consistent doubling, 40% growth, and Moulder support offset that.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

Colm isn't puny. This guy actually has combat utility due to his lol EXP gain. 4 base isn't good, but consistent doubling, 40% growth, and Moulder support offset that.

I could promote Joshua at level 12 and get something superior to a 20/1 Colm. Hell, I could promote him at level 14, he'd be curbstomping the blue bastard. Last I checked, Joshua wasn't in high.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

I agree with Robo on this one, you don't get much out of promoting Colm. He's an okay fighter, but not a good one, and it won't help him do better thieving either. In the meantime, Pirate->Berserker Ross is statistically his best option, and he trades Swords for terrain advantage. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

You can always just buy another Ocean Seal in the secret shop.

[grandjackal]

Another benefit is that this means he can go Pirate without worry, to put water walk to good use because surprisingly, this game has quite the use for it! Oh, and he gets an extra point of speed as a pirate, which is a nice touch. Level 2 outside of HP, he is his father's superior. But focusing on water walk.

Soonest use is Waterside Renvall. There's this river that flows from the lake that normally only Vanessa could cross without her transport. Now, Ross can aid her in a blitz to the front gate, meaning that much quicker I can just fly Eirika to the boss to rapier his ass, a flown over Garcia and Ross himself helping by chucking hand axes.

Chapter 9 Eirika has a huge-ass water front just south of the starting position, and a bunch of pirates just due south. Ross is one of the few who can enter the water and accurately hit these bastards, all thanks to his trusty Hatchet. This is basically 4 kills he calls his own, of which not only saves the southern house, but nets the ocean seal as well. Due to only otherwise our pegasi are attacking these hand-axe wielding bastards, Ross is our safest bet due to not suffering WTD and having actual accuracy. On top of this, Ross can then travel south to help kill the archers and dark mage, all of which are easy pickings to him, considering it's pretty damn hard to hit a guy out of the water. Ross can also save u the Hatchet if he still wants and use the hand axe on them, as it's not like anyone's gonna suddenly jump into the water with him. All he'd need is a couple vulneries, and he can do it all by himself basically.

Deussal's chapter Ephraim's route. Couple ships are of annoyance, and he can take care of them. Due to cliffside terrain though, Ross has a hard time jumping into the water, as this isn't FEDS. Not a big advantage, but other fliers might find it a bit dangerous in comparison to him.

Flourspar's Oath. Only fliers and Ross can navigate this map easily. Due to the rivers being thin, he can easily just cross these rivers and have tactical placement advantage over just about everyone else.

Then on promotion (along with another point of speed), water and mountains are his plaything. River of Regrets, he can easily go to fight the heroes to the east (as troublesome as it may be due to them having powerful weaponry), he can hide in the mountains around to have an easier time fighting other various enemies. Plenty of mountainous and watery regions to hide in in the chapter next to endgame. In fact, wh better to fight Reiv? Ross has high luck to avoid deadly Aura crit, water to hide in, and with his crit he can smite that bastard in return. Then with Garm, he would smite Morva, and I could fly/warp/whatever the lord to the throne, and bam.

As for leveling, I never have any problems getting Ross to tier 1 by Serafew on efficient plays. I guess what I'm saying is I find Ross underrated. Ross is just too commando as a pirate at times.

I mean, I see no reason why he should be a tier below Garcia, much less that far apart as is. Ross should be above Garcia at least.

As for other trainees? Well they're shit out of luck. Amelia's problem is that when trained she doesn't come out as a good cavalier, and armor knight is just a shitty class. She's just screwed up until promotion. Ewan? Well, too little too late. Amelia's promotion bonuses are complete garbage too.

In fact, I almost wanna say Ewan>Amelia just because his promotion bonuses don't suck. Basically, Amelia is garbage forever. She can't pull a level 10 promotion due to the fact that her stats are just that much garbage. However, Ewan promoted at level 10, we could get this.

Ewan 10/10/1 Druid

HP: 29 HP, 13 Mag, 9 Skill, 15 Speed, 14 Luck, 5 Def, 14 Res

Not impressive, but neither is waiting for him to do anything else. I forget, do Druids keep their staffs in this game? Because now, he'd basically have a dark/anima choice of equal ranks. Hell, he could go summoner for generally the same stats+summoning, though he'd lose the light weight anima magic.

However, promoting Amelia at level 10...Well, her best bet is Cav-Great Knight, of which we're basically dealing with a very sub-par melee unit. I'd say Ewan has more bases due to being safer to train thanks to magic.

HP: 30, 11 Str, 13 Skill, 15 Speed, 15 Luck, 9 Def, 9 Res

There is a problem here, that being that she is actually offensively worse, and that she's almost as durable. As a great knight.

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but I'd rather train Ewan than Amelia due to it being far easier to train Ewan (Good luck with Amelia at melee, god knows she won't hit a damn thing with a javy...).

EDIT: Woopsie, seems she already is below him...

Edited September 5, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dat Nick]

I agree with Robo on this one, you don't get much out of promoting Colm. He's an okay fighter, but not a good one, and it won't help him do better thieving either.

Pick. Yes, he does get better at thieving.

He's an okay fighter, but not a good one

proof plz. Jackal conceded over IM that a 12/1 Joshua is more frail than a 20/1 Colm, and I fail to see how a 14/1 Joshua with ONE more point of str on Colm is "curbstomping".

You can always just buy another Ocean Seal in the secret shop.

that's exactly why Colm's consumption of it isn't a big deal, since Ross is unable to use the seal instantly anyway

[grandjackal]

Pick. Yes, he does get better at thieving.

You have enough picks to last. Colm starts out with 15 uses, you can steal another in Tirado's map, there are keys as well, by the time you can promote Colm, Rennac shows up anyways.

Speaking of Joshua, I could make him an assassin. He'd be a better combatant, and now he can do Colm's job for him. Suck on that for a sec.

proof plz. Jackal conceded over IM that a 12/1 Joshua is more frail than a 20/1 Colm, and I fail to see how a 14/1 Joshua with ONE more point of str on Colm is "curbstomping".

By an HP. My point is that I could promote hot Josh early and still be beating him offensively, of which is the entire point of promoting Colm. Joshua is not high. Colm's "offense" is overrated, unless you're also saying Joshy should be in high.

that's exactly why Colm's consumption of it isn't a big deal, since Ross is unable to use the seal instantly anyway

Then what the hell are we arguing about? The fact we have to buy a new one? I'd rather save it, if all I get is offense inferior to an upper mid dude anwyays.

[Dat Nick]

He'd be a better combatant, and now he can do Colm's job for him. Suck on that for a sec.

WHUT? Joshua loses the 2 str promo boost he got, the only reason he was even COMPARING to Colm's str, and now he's a better fighter? Explain your shit, don't just say it, because your claims are not consistent at all with average stats.

By an HP.

20/1 Colm: 34 HP, 12 def [Moulder gives +2]

12/1 Josh: 33 HP, 8 def

Sure, it's 1 HP, but it's also 4 def.

Oh, and get this: While Colm has Mr. Moustache for ATK, none of Joshua's supports mix with his wind affinity to give him ATK [With the exception of Lol'Arachel] who comes late anyway.

[Florete]

Why again are we promoting Joshua at 12? How does Colm beating him at that level suddenly make Colm a good fighter?