some details of my current playthrough

[Interceptor]

Hey, can someone remind me what the point of this topic is? Is smash trying to prove something?

That's a good question. Let's look at this via deduction.

smash opens by claiming that "this board" thinks Aran doesn't help clear the game more quickly, weasel wording that fails to cite any evidence for this assertion at all. After a series of words in quotations marks that were not quotes, and hyperbole to the max, smash proceeds to defend himself against people who accuse him of poor strategy by giving examples with elementary strategic mistakes in them. Meanwhile, two posters get to counter everything that smash says for free, since never publicly acknowledges anything that they say (presumably because he has them on "ignore").

As far as I can tell, the point of the topic is to show people the meaning of "irony".

[Narga_Rocks]

Hey, can someone remind me what the point of this topic is? Is smash trying to prove something?

As far as I can tell, the point of the topic is to show people the meaning of "irony".

But smash has always been one of the best demonstrations of irony. You could teach children what irony is just by showing them smash. Even the dumb kid in the class that just doesn't ever understand anything would look at this board and say "Oh, I get it now! That's irony."

Edited September 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Hey, can someone remind me what the point of this topic is? Is smash trying to prove something?

People have different playstyles, play the game differently, etc. Not everyone uses the same strategy, and I don't expect anyone to always copy what I do.

Anyway, some more of my playlog.

I'm going to skip 2-P and 2-1 for now because they're very boring and have very few characters. Maybe I'll describe my experience in them later.

2-2

Without Lethe, beat in 7 turns.

With Lethe, beat in 7 turns.

Actually, this isn't entirely accurate, since when I used Lethe, I managed to get Nealuchi into sub-30% HP for wrath, so he started one rounding liek everything he attacked.

2-3

First I used Makalov. I beat it in 7 turns in my first try, although I only managed to keep 36 enemies alive.

When I didn't use Makalov, it took me five tries before I finally beat it (usually someone died on me so I restarted). I had 40 enemies alive, also beat in 7 turns.

Got the speedwing both times.

Note that when I didn't use Makalov, every single NPC was dead by the end of turn 6. When I did use Makalov, I actually had 2 NPC alive when I finished (on turn 7).

2-E

I'm currently trying to beat it. I had to restart because I tried to have Lethe block the left stairs untransformed, at the suggestion of a VERY good friend of mine on this site. Bad idea. Steel poleaxe warriors reach up to 35 att, which 2HKO and double an untransformed Lethe. I was playing with fire the entire time, though, since there are 2-range enemies up that stairs, and if they managed to position themselves so that they can fire at Lethe at 2-range, she's gone no matter who ends up attacking her at 1-range. Also, since she has 17 att untransformed, she generally does damage to enemies on the counter, which means I don't even build gauge for my efforts (unless she misses).

[Narga_Rocks]

2-3

Note that when I didn't use Makalov, every single NPC was dead by the end of turn 6. When I did use Makalov, I actually had 2 NPC alive when I finished (on turn 7).

Um, if every single NPC was dead by the end of turn 6, and you finished on turn 7, isn't that perfect, then? What's it matter if 2 NPC's are alive when you finish or not? If we got bexp for keeping NPCs alive as well as enemy units, it would mean something. Since you don't, it means squat. Finish the chapter without losing any player units and get the speedwing and hope for the arms scroll. If all the npc's die or all of them live, who cares?

[nflchamp]

I don't know who suggested it to you, but tanking w/ Lethe untransformed at the top of the stairs is totally pointless. We care about strike level, not EXP (aka we want her to double (aka we want her transformed))

[Progenitus]

I don't know who suggested it to you, but tanking w/ Lethe untransformed at the top of the stairs is totally pointless. We care about strike level, not EXP (aka we want her to double (aka we want her transformed))

She's not staying transformed the whole time without hogging all the grasses, which makes nealuchi and mordy worse, which is pretty bad because they completely roflstomp her in 2-2 and 2-E.

[nflchamp]

What, you have more than one tank. You don't have to have her tank every turn to get a good amount of strike level.

[Progenitus]

So you mean you'd rather have TWO people to be blocking the stairs rather than having one guy (typically Brom) just handle it for the entire chapter and the other person helps the push on the right side?

This turns Lethe's 2-E performance from "she helped a little" to "she did fucking nothing worth mentioning because everything she did could've been done by Brom except he did it better. And woohoo, she got a little strike rank for her sacrifice". So that's not any better.

The only people who should stay on the left side with brom (who should be doing all the tanking, not lollethe) are the units who are so bad they aren't helping with the push on the right at all, so they're better off just firing at the enemies on the stairs, which does nothing for me except give them exp.

Plus, after Lethe untransforms, she takes several turns before she transforms again. The only way she'd transform back in any decent time is if you kept those longbow snipers alive at the bottom so they can fire at her and miss with height disadvantage to build her gauge. However, you'll eventually want to kill those guys, because they'll be in the way of the push, and they're especially dangerous once you're on the ground floor and have no height advantage on them (actually, once you start going down those stairs to the ground floor, you lose the height on them, so you want them dead by the time you reach there). Or I suppose you could have her get attacked by the 2-range enemies on the stairs, but they may not necessarily be on the stairs when Lethe untransforms, plus they're typically crossbows/bowguns, which have ridiculous hit even with height disadvantage (e.g. Lethe takes a crapload of damage).

[the great haar]

i don't see the point of this topic. Turn count shouldn't be the only thing that matters. Reliability/margin of error do too. Otherwise we would just be copying prog's speed runs.

[Narga_Rocks]

So you mean you'd rather have TWO people to be blocking the stairs rather than having one guy (typically Brom) just handle it for the entire chapter and the other person helps the push on the right side?

This turns Lethe's 2-E performance from "she helped a little" to "she did fucking nothing worth mentioning because everything she did could've been done by Brom except he did it better. And woohoo, she got a little strike rank for her sacrifice". So that's not any better.

The only people who should stay on the left side with brom (who should be doing all the tanking, not lollethe) are the units who are so bad they aren't helping with the push on the right at all, so they're better off just firing at the enemies on the stairs, which does nothing for me except give them exp.

Plus, after Lethe untransforms, she takes several turns before she transforms again. The only way she'd transform back in any decent time is if you kept those longbow snipers alive at the bottom so they can fire at her and miss with height disadvantage to build her gauge. However, you'll eventually want to kill those guys, because they'll be in the way of the push, and they're especially dangerous once you're on the ground floor and have no height advantage on them (actually, once you start going down those stairs to the ground floor, you lose the height on them, so you want them dead by the time you reach there). Or I suppose you could have her get attacked by the 2-range enemies on the stairs, but they may not necessarily be on the stairs when Lethe untransforms, plus they're typically crossbows/bowguns, which have ridiculous hit even with height disadvantage (e.g. Lethe takes a crapload of damage).

I still don't get why you think you need to push through all those annoying generals and armors to kill Ludveck. Between your multitude of fliers for this level and Leanne (herself a flier) there is no reason to go through all those armors. The guy holding the energy drop is near enough to the front that Mordy and the NPCs will get to him soon enough, and once he's been weakened enough you can have Calill Meteor the guy if you can't get anyone within 2 range of him. There is no reason to try to clear out that area completely when you can just attack the boss through the air. It's just an experience grab to try to kill them all, and a stupid one at that considering you could clear out the west much more easily for approximately the same experience. In fact, you get a height advantage on the west for some of your less good 2 range users meaning 4 more damage if they double and they will not miss. So you face easier enemies that give about the same experience and you get a height advantage thrown in to make it even easier. And a coin, technically. Sure, it makes the turn 7 CRK reinforcements completely useless whereas before they were almost useless, but whatever.

And considering there is 1 grass from 2-2 and another on like turn 2 in 2-E, having Lethe use 2 or 3 uses here after reverting isn't really much of an issue. You don't need her, but if a player chose to use her in part 3, I see no intelligent reason not to get her as much strike as possible in 2-E. And as for those longbow users, unless you plan on killing them in one turn, Lethe should be able to use one of them rather than a grass for a revert trick around turn 6 or something. Then kill them. Sure, she needs grasses, but not so many as to break the bank.

[Jaybee]

i don't see the point of this topic. Turn count shouldn't be the only thing that matters. Reliability/margin of error do too. Otherwise we would just be copying prog's speed runs.

There is no point to this topic. It was made based off a false assumption.

Also, prog's speedruns had a lot of RNG abuse. And it was on NM so he could battle save. On HM, we'd kill ourselves trying to clear 1-P with that strategy (the exact same moves).

[nflchamp]

I apologize that I thought 2-E was nothing more than a self-improvement chapter in the first place. It isn't like we can beat the chapter at any time we please, including turn 1.

[Progenitus]

i don't see the point of this topic. Turn count shouldn't be the only thing that matters. Reliability/margin of error do too. Otherwise we would just be copying prog's speed runs.

True.

However, it's hard to actually measure reliability/margin of error. For example, how would you measure the reliability of Aran letting you beat 1-3 in X turns, versus not using Aran and beating 1-3 in the same amount of turns? I can think of a way, but it would involve calculating the hit rates/chance of death/killing/etc. for every single battle in the chapter, and that is just stupid and tedious and unnecessary. Raw turn counts are not entirely accurate, but they're better than nothing, especially since many people on this board don't bother to try anything out for themselves (e.g. lethe countering the west stairs untransformed in 2-E to preserve grasses for our better laguz. whoever suggested it didn't realize there are actually enemies who can 2HKO and double. Of course it's my fault as well since I should've checked the enemy stats before I ran headfirst into a restart, but I simply assumed Lethe couldn't fail THAT hard).

I apologize that I thought 2-E was nothing more than a self-improvement chapter in the first place. It isn't like we can beat the chapter at any time we please, including turn 1.

And lose out on the energy drop/dracoshield/arms scroll/nullify/other crap in the map?

If Heather could fly and/or Haar was able to steal then maybe I would actually think 1-turning 2-E would be intelligent.

I'm all for going quickly, but not at the expense of losing out on a ton of resources.

[nflchamp]

I didn't say "beating the chapter on the first turn was the way to go." I said:

I apologize that I thought 2-E was nothing more than a self-improvement chapter in the first place. It isn't like we can beat the chapter at any time we please, including turn 1.

Now, if you read that properly, that says I can win on any turn I down right feel like it, not "turn 1."

On a completely different note, getting the items in this chapter is still only self-improvement, considering obtaining them has nothing to due with chapter completion. Just because weight is put on them (rightfully so, as they help with game completion) doesn't mean they anything other than tools for improving a character.

[Mekkah]

Self-improved implies it only helps the deployed people, but this isn't true. If you nab the Energy Drop and Dracoshield and pass them to Nephenee, Brom or Heather, you'll see them again in 3-2 and you'll be able to use them on whichever GM you like. Of course most of them don't benefit a whole lot of these, since the main problem of the GMs is offense, not defense, and those who problem is defense generally don't improve a whole lot with the shield.

[grandjackal]

Self-improved implies it only helps the deployed people, but this isn't true. If you nab the Energy Drop and Dracoshield and pass them to Nephenee, Brom or Heather, you'll see them again in 3-2 and you'll be able to use them on whichever GM you like. Of course most of them don't benefit a whole lot of these, since the main problem of the GMs is offense, not defense, and those who problem is defense generally don't improve a whole lot with the shield.

...Maybe Lethe can get the shield ;;>> Ya know, just sayin'...

[nflchamp]

Self-improved implies it only helps the deployed people, but this isn't true. If you nab the Energy Drop and Dracoshield and pass them to Nephenee, Brom or Heather, you'll see them again in 3-2 and you'll be able to use them on whichever GM you like. Of course most of them don't benefit a whole lot of these, since the main problem of the GMs is offense, not defense, and those who problem is defense generally don't improve a whole lot with the shield.

Depends on how you define self-improvement. The stat boosters just allow someone who isn't necessarily in the chapter to improve themselves due to the chapter's existence. In my mind, that is still nothing but "self-improvement."

[grandjackal]

Wait, wouldn't Nephenee like a Draco anyways? She gets +2 to suppliment her currently meh defense, and can build up a support with Brom who doesn't slow down for a good while. By the time he tires out, Neph has access to various mercs to support with from there on, and is also about the time she stops being mediocre. It helps her be a bit closer to par with the mercs on arrival, while still helping a tidbit in part 2. Only a tidbit, but she can use it before various other GMs. Besides, only like 5 GM have long term use regardless.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Kuja

[Progenitus]

Now, if you read that properly, that says I can win on any turn I down right feel like it, not "turn 1."

Except by not clearing out all the armors on the right side, you will not be able to get Heather down to the bottom floor so she can steal the shield from ludveck, in addition to getting the arms scroll for some free money.

So I don't see your point.

On a completely different note, getting the items in this chapter is still only self-improvement, considering obtaining them has nothing to due with chapter completion. Just because weight is put on them (rightfully so, as they help with game completion) doesn't mean they anything other than tools for improving a character.

... I have no idea what you're talking about. by getting the items like energy drop, I make my team stronger and make future chapters easier. Why should it matter if they're only "tools for improving a character" if they make the game go by faster either way?

Self-improved implies it only helps the deployed people, but this isn't true. If you nab the Energy Drop and Dracoshield and pass them to Nephenee, Brom or Heather, you'll see them again in 3-2 and you'll be able to use them on whichever GM you like. Of course most of them don't benefit a whole lot of these, since the main problem of the GMs is offense, not defense, and those who problem is defense generally don't improve a whole lot with the shield.

Titania/Boyd/Oscar/Mia/etc. being able to take an extra hit with the shield is nice. One of the laguz could possibly use it, as by part 4 people like Ranulf are no longer "lul invincible". Or you could simply hold on to it until the DB arrive, as people like Jill wouldn't mind one.

[nflchamp]

Except by not clearing out all the armors on the right side, you will not be able to get Heather down to the bottom floor so she can steal the shield from ludveck, in addition to getting the arms scroll for some free money.

So I don't see your point.

Flyers and Leanne allow you to just plop Heather in range of the shield and steal it on whatever turn you feel like. No danger so long as you kill Ludveck on the same turn.

Also, I only want the Arms scroll if I can get it to the GM. And it is only questionably worth getting then.

... I have no idea what you're talking about. by getting the items like energy drop, I make my team stronger and make future chapters easier. Why should it matter if they're only "tools for improving a character" if they make the game go by faster either way?

Yes, that is the idea. I'm not saying that the items won't make other chapters go faster indirectly by improving characters. I'm saying you're not completing this chapter as quickly as possible solely to improve characters for later. Are you not understanding what I meant when I said the chapter was nothing but self-improvement for characters?

[Mekkah]

Depends on how you define self-improvement. The stat boosters just allow someone who isn't necessarily in the chapter to improve themselves due to the chapter's existence. In my mind, that is still nothing but "self-improvement."

What would be the difference between "self-improvement" and "improvement of anyone" then?

[Narga_Rocks]

Except by not clearing out all the armors on the right side, you will not be able to get Heather down to the bottom floor so she can steal the shield from ludveck, in addition to getting the arms scroll for some free money.

Flyers and Leanne allow you to just plop Heather in range of the shield and steal it on whatever turn you feel like. No danger so long as you kill Ludveck on the same turn.

Also, I only want the Arms scroll if I can get it to the GM. And it is only questionably worth getting then.

This is why Int and I say smash is not that great at tactics. He can't see how to do certain things in a better way.

Also, you don't even have to kill Ludveck. As long as you pick up Heather on a previous turn, you can air drop Heather, land your flier two away from her in a line, have Leanne vigor them both, have Heather steal the draco or land on the olivi grass, one flier picks up Heather, the other Leanne, and everyone is out before the player phase is over and Ludveck doesn't have to die yet.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Except by not clearing out all the armors on the right side, you will not be able to get Heather down to the bottom floor so she can steal the shield from ludveck, in addition to getting the arms scroll for some free money.

So I don't see your point.

Flyers and Leanne allow you to just plop Heather in range of the shield and steal it on whatever turn you feel like. No danger so long as you kill Ludveck on the same turn.

.... you do realize that the general with the shield is in the very back, right?

Also, I only want the Arms scroll if I can get it to the GM. And it is only questionably worth getting then.

The arms scroll is a free 4000 gold, so I don't know why it's "questionable". The reason why people now think the GMs are rolling in money is because we are shipping over various items for them to sell, and the arms scroll is one of them.

Yes, that is the idea. I'm not saying that the items won't make other chapters go faster indirectly by improving characters. I'm saying you're not completing this chapter as quickly as possible solely to improve characters for later. Are you not understanding what I meant when I said the chapter was nothing but self-improvement for characters?

No, I understood completely. That doesn't justify you complaining about it.

How about you take your own criticism and start reading my posts?

... I have no idea what you're talking about. by getting the items like energy drop, I make my team stronger and make future chapters easier. Why should it matter if they're only "tools for improving a character" if they make the game go by faster either way?

So are you going to sit here and complain about the energy drop/shield/etc. being "tools for self-improvement", or are you actually going to tell me why going faster >>> going slower but getting these items?

[Narga_Rocks]

Except by not clearing out all the armors on the right side, you will not be able to get Heather down to the bottom floor so she can steal the shield from ludveck, in addition to getting the arms scroll for some free money.

So I don't see your point.

Flyers and Leanne allow you to just plop Heather in range of the shield and steal it on whatever turn you feel like. No danger so long as you kill Ludveck on the same turn.

.... you do realize that the general with the shield is in the very back, right?

You do realize it is incredibly easy to do, right? Is this another case of Smash needing a step by step walkthrough on how to do something properly? In this case, to get the draco shield and get out on the same player phase? I've done it multiple times in the tier list topic, so maybe I'll go look for it if anyone else wants to see it (since smash ignores Int and me), or I'll retype it if there is interest and I can't find it or don't think whatever I typed before outlines it step by step well enough.

The fact that it is way down there just means you have to think in order to get it, something that you've shown to be incapable of doing as thoroughly as some of the rest of us. I've picked up the draco both on NM and HM without ever clearing out the general swarm. It's not hard. I even got the olivi grass down there as well.

[Interceptor]

The arc of this thread is pretty ridiculous. It is turning into a journal of what you get when you hamfist your way through the game. You seem to think that your "have Sothe weaken something so that Nolan can kill it" idea makes you Fire Emblem Napoleon or something.

The latest crime against decent strategy is having Lethe tank untransformed at the top of the stairs, which is an utterly pointless way to use her. The reason given for doing it doesn't even make sense. To save grass for the better laguz? Christ, if we're going to be using Lethe, we have to use her effectively at MINIMUM. The fact that she's beaten easily by Mordy and Neal is not justification to have her randomly commit suicide.

I'd give you credit for doing something remotely clever in 2-E in the form of using the longbow archers to charge up your gauge, but since it isn't something that you came up with in the first place, it'd be like patting myself on the back. You're welcome, by the way. We'll mark this one up next to Wrath + Micaiah as useful tricks that somehow managed to penetrate your Reality Distortion Field and be incorporated into your playstyle.

Anyway, as nflchamp and Narga said, getting the Dracoshield is a piece of cake. The fact that the general "is at the back" is approximately as troublesome as a rainy day, once you figure out the trick of abusing Vigor and Rescue. Narga actually one-upped me again on this one, coming up with another strategy that I hadn't considered: grabbing the Draco without killing Ludveck. I just loaded up my 2-E save, and sure as shit, it's entirely possible given the right circumstances.