ITT I rank the characters

[Progenitus]

Lute

Lute has a rocky start, but she ends up scary as hell.

Her bases are pretty lame. She's going to get 2HKO'd by everything, and she has an effective 6 base spd (7 spd, but 3 con. And fire is 4 wt). It would've been fine in chapter 1, but she joins at the tail end of chapter 4. She's barely outperforming Neimi, which is pretty sad.

However, she grows at an alarming rate. She has wtf65 pow growth with a decent 45 spd growth, and after promotion picking mage knight lets her use thunder without AS loss (as opposed to fire for -1 AS, nevermind more move), so her offense becomes beastly.

Durability, she has a fast support in artur that gives full def AND avoid, decent supports in Kyle/Vanessa that also give full def/avo (and Vanessa gives full att to boot), and Ross that gives full att/avo. With also decent lck, she won't even care about her poor HP/def growths; her supports give her so much durability that she won't even mind. To put this in perspective, Lute at 20/2 with A Artur/B whoever has 74 avoid. I haven't crunched avoid numbers for everyone else, but I'm pretty confident that the only person who beats that (assuming full supports and equal levels) is Vanessa.

Promotion: Mage Knight. This is obvious. Sage has better caps, but they will almost never apply for the main story. Mage knight has much better promotion bonuses. You may want to wait and promote her after chapter 15 though; the horse will slow her down in the desert. This can be worked around because she's underleveled anyway.

So Lute starts off pretty weak, but has good growths and even better supports. Around the time her supports kick in, she'll start doubling fairly reliably and become a ORKOing machine with good avoid. If you can stomach her poor earlygame she makes up for it.

8.5/10

[Progenitus]

Natasha

Natasha is basically a watered down version of Moulder. Well, slightly watered down.

Now, Moulder exists only for 3 more maps than her, and those are pretty short maps. However, she's still 2 levels behind, and that's assuming Moulder doesn't get any exp at all. And since staff exp is set, she's never closing that level lead until promotion. Moulder also starts at C staves while Natasha is D, so while both should eventually be able to use warp and even the latona staff, it still might be a problem with staves like physic (don't remember when the first one is available).

Now, stats don't really matter much for healers prepromotion; they heal for basically the same, and any durability leads between healers (even though they barely exist early on) don't really matter because you don't want either of them to be attacked if possible. But by post-promotion when they gain a weapon, Moulder's superior supports give him a slight edge. Vanessa/Colm/Gilliam are only +2, but they do start very early, and thanks to anima, he gets at least two of att/def/avo from each one. Natasha has a +3 with Joshua, where ice/wind mixes horribly, then she has +2s with Cormag/Seth/Franz, so unless Joshua is in play she might have problems getting full supports as 5 move healer supporting two 7-8 move units can be a problem.

In any case, Moulder's supports allow him to close the att gap (and if he goes Sage he can get a pretty nice att lead with Elfire) while getting a good def lead to help pad his losses in avo and res, and maintain a small spd lead. Of course Natasha can play with her own lead; going Valkyrie instead of Bishop gives her 7 move instead of 6. This is not as significant as the stat leads though.

Promotion: Bishop gives slayer while Valkyrie is slightly better promo bonuses (valk's +1 mag/con/move vs bishop's +1 spd). I don't know offhand which one is better, so just use whichever you want.

EDIT: Apparently valk has better exp gains for kills too, so it does make Valk look more tempting.

So Moulder has a few short chapters of being the only healer, then they are pretty much carbon copies until promotion. When they do promote, Moulder will have a small edge in supports which give him slightly better stats. However they're nothing massive, so feel free to use Natasha in lieu of Moulder. Or even simultaneously.

8.5/10

Edited February 15, 2012 by IMPrime

[Integrity]

Valkyrie is also more XP in the random-ass event that she's in position to kill something. For whatever that's worth.

also wb you know I only tried to do this ages ago because you got banned and it made me sad?

[Anouleth]

You missed Neimi and Colm.

In addition, I think it's quite odd that you give Artur and Lute such a high rating. I would have hoped that you wouldn't be stuck in a 2004-style "good offensive growths = good character" mode of thinking, but perhaps I gave you too much credit. You say that these rankings are based on beating HM as quickly and as efficiently as possible, but you talk about having 20/1 characters, something that is virtually impossible in a fast playthrough, especially with characters as slow and weak in earlygame as Lute and Artur (like you said, they are as weak as Neimi initially). You should probably change the wording of your initial post.

[Junkhead]

Hello Anoulethe.

Smash reminded me that Moulder can use Elfire without AS loss. It would be so awesome to pull that in a draft, but with the turns it takes, it isn't feasible.

[Progenitus]

Valkyrie is also more XP in the random-ass event that she's in position to kill something. For whatever that's worth.

also wb you know I only tried to do this ages ago because you got banned and it made me sad?

touche

But it does make it look like Valk's the better choice for her now.

You missed Neimi and Colm.

Technically I did, but I forgot to edit their scores into the OP.

In addition, I think it's quite odd that you give Artur and Lute such a high rating. I would have hoped that you wouldn't be stuck in a 2004-style "good offensive growths = good character" mode of thinking, but perhaps I gave you too much credit. You say that these rankings are based on beating HM as quickly and as efficiently as possible, but you talk about having 20/1 characters, something that is virtually impossible in a fast playthrough, especially with characters as slow and weak in earlygame as Lute and Artur (like you said, they are as weak as Neimi initially). You should probably change the wording of your initial post.

Done

[Progenitus]

Joshua

Joshua has pretty solid offense. Everything else is a different story, though.

He joins with very good offense. 8 str is definitely above average (only really loses to Garcia/Gilliam/Ross. Franz is slightly higher), but 14 spd is very good. It ensures that he can use liek any weapon and still double. His durability is not as stellar, but it's still fine. 24 HP/5 def. That's about tied with Vanessa, but loses to cavs/Gilliam by a good amount and Garcia by a little bit. He does beat out the other sword users though. The high avoid means he can also kinda dodge against axes, which is nice.

Midgame, though, he does lose steam. He caps spd very quickly, so his avoid growth stagnates, and as the rest of the team gains speed, his ability to double loses its luster. His 35 str growth also starts to bite him in the ass, though postpromotion 15 crit helps keep it up to par (buy him lots of killing edges). Joshua's supports aren't helping him much for either offense or defense, since IS was retarded and gave Joshua a wind affinity and paired him up with FOUR ice affinities and one thunder (and one light, but that's lolarachel). Unfortunately, wind x ice doesn't mix well (lol, half bonuses to everything worthwhile), and wind x thunder isn't really much better (full crit!). They are supports with respectable units though (+3 Natasha, +3 Gerik, +2 Innes, +2 Artur), so at least he can fit into most teams, which is nice. Note that Gerik and especially Innes aren't as good on Ephraim route, so Joshua might have some problems getting full supports, but it shouldn't be significant enough to hinder his score.

His def is still pretty low, unfortunately (he beats out, like, magic users, and that's about it). Decent HP at least. His avoid is alright but with only mono swords for limited WT control that doesn't do him any favors, and it also means he has no 1-2 range options, which also means he's almost always taking counters on player phase, on top of the whole "hey I don't do anything against archers and whatever". Supports giving only half avo doesn't help either.

Promotion: SM. Better support bonuses and silencer is ass.

I wish FE8 had HM bonuses. Would Joshua be Guy #2 with them? Maybe. But unfortunately we're left with a unit who has a good earlygame but a fairly poor lategame. Offense that starts off good and ends up fairly average. Durability that starts off average and ends up below average. And an unfortunate sword-lock.

6.5/10

[Anouleth]

I'm not really sure how you can give Joshua a lower score than Eirika. Eirika does have earlygame, but Joshua has better stats in basically every area, and can promote whenever he wants.

In addition, you say he has a poor lategame, but that isn't really true. Especially since you seem to think that Artur and Lute have a good lategame. For example, take some enemies in Last Hope:

Lvl 5 General: 40 HP, 16 Str, 10 Skl, 7 Spd, 6 Lck, 19 Def, 10 Res

Steel Lance: 26 Atk, 93 Hit, 20 Avoid, 5 Crit

Lvl 5 Hero: 44 HP, 13 Str, 18 Skl, 14-15 Spd, 6-7 Lck, 14 Def, 6-7 Res

Steel Blade: 24 Atk, 104 Hit, 28-31 Avoid, 7 Crit, 11-12 AS

*Brave Sword: 22 Atk, 114 Hit, 32-35 Avoid, 9 Crit, 13-14 AS

Lvl 4 Swordmaster: 36 HP, 12 Str, 17 Skl, 17 Spd, 6 Lck, 9 Def, 9 Res

Steel Sword: 20 Atk, 112 Hit, 38 Avoid, 23 Crit, 16 AS

Lvl 5 Warriors: 48-49 HP, 18-21 Str, 11-12 Skl, 11-13 Spd, 2-4 Lck, 9-10 Def, 3 Res

Steel Axe: 29-32 At, 88-91 Ht, 20-26 Avoid, 5-6 Crt, 9-11 AS

Steel Bow: 27-31 Atk, 90-93 Hit, 24-30 Avoid, 5-6 Crit

Hand Axe: 25-28 Atk, 86-89 Hit, 24-30 Avoid, 5-6 Crit

Level 20/5 Joshua:

44.2HP 16.65STR22.2SKL 22.2SPD 12.7LUK 10.8DEF 6.8RES

Level 20/4 Lute:

29.9HP 22.3STR 13.6SKL 16.9SPD 17.9LUK 8.3DEF 15.8RES

Level 20/5 Artur:

35.1HP 18STR 17SKL 16.8SPD 7.5LUK 8.3DEF 21.1RES

Joshua doubles everything. Moreover, between Lancereavers and Killing Edges, he deals good damage. With a simple +1 attack support, Joshua can ORKO the Heroes with Audhulma or Brave Sword and ORKO the Swordmasters with a Killing Edge. And what he doesn't 2HKO or ORKO outright he has a decent chance to critical. For example, he has a ~84% chance to critical Warriors and ORKO them.

So Joshua is clearly better against the Heroes and Swordmasters (and later, Rangers and Mage Knights) and Lute is clearly better against the Generals (and later, Great Knights, since Generals don't appear as reinforcements). Artur struggles to match Joshua on anything, even failing to 2HKO Generals with Elfire. Joshua will be even better against bosses. Could you imagine Lute trying to kill a boss?

I wish FE8 had HM bonuses. Would Joshua be Guy #2 with them?

But Joshua is already better than Guy. He has the same strength base (more outside of HHM) and a higher growth with more CON as well.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Anouleth

[dondon151]

Lute is actually not that much better against generals than Joshua is; Joshua comes really close to ORKOing them with an Armorslayer at that level. And I'm sure that great knights are worse defensively than generals, so Joshua should be ORKOing those.

These ratings are already wrought with inconsistencies within inconsistencies...

Edited February 16, 2012 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

I'm not really sure how you can give Joshua a lower score than Eirika. Eirika does have earlygame, but Joshua has better stats in basically every area, and can promote whenever he wants.

Eirika's leads when she's superior > Joshua's leads when he's superior

Level 20/5 Joshua:

44.2HP 16.65STR22.2SKL 22.2SPD 12.7LUK 10.8DEF 6.8RES

Level 20/4 Lute:

29.9HP 22.3STR 13.6SKL 16.9SPD 17.9LUK 8.3DEF 15.8RES

Level 20/5 Artur:

35.1HP 18STR 17SKL 16.8SPD 7.5LUK 8.3DEF 21.1RES

why no supports?

why ignore 1-2 range or staves?

Edited February 16, 2012 by IMPrime

[General Horace]

Josh's quickest support is Natasha, which still takes 20 adjacents and doesn't yield attack until a B, which is unfeasible. Lute and Artur's quickest supports are each other, and again, they need a B to gain any attack, and is unfeasible as well. It's unlikely for a C Support to happen (as if you're using Artur, chances are you're not using Lute, otherwise they gobble up each other's exp and promote late).

Lute and Artur are generally better versus Generals because they can avoid counters, but Josh wins everywhere else since he has a wide variety of swords at his disposal that will net him ORKO's when needed.

All Anou was saying was Josh's lategame isn't really all that bad, he still doubles everything, and can use Silvers/effectives/Audhulma to make up for his iffy strength.

[Progenitus]

That makes no sense at all. Are you saying that every map is done in 5 turns so +3 supports are impossible and that we're fielding only 1 1st tier (because apparently we can't field 2)?

Edited February 16, 2012 by IMPrime

[General Horace]

Lute and Artur need 53 adjacents in order for them to reach B for them to yield any attack. That's spending more than half the time it takes to complete the entire game together. I don't know about you, but I see that as a bit of an issue.

[Progenitus]

I see, so you ARE advocating for speed-run playstyle.

Reread the OP please.

[Lord Raven]

Let's assume we're beating it in 200 turns. Lute and Artur have to sit next to each other for 25% of the game. And then if we make Lute a Mage Knight...

Considering 118 was 0% growths with most luck manipulation that I recall being against the final boss, I wouldn't be surprised if 130 was the standard efficiency norm (and it seems a little bit high too). 150 is really pushing it too, considering the game with growths was beaten in less than 100 so that's like a 1.6-1.7x increase from "max efficiency".. i'd say 1.3-1.4 is more reasonable. In which case, it's a very notable percentage of the playtime.

(ignore any point about Natasha and rutger i made, I'm tired as shit)

Edited February 16, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[General Horace]

I read a somewhat contridictory statement in the OP, that states as quickly and efficiently as possible, and I realize efficient does not equal absolute LTC, but the quickly is somewhat contridictory in that statement.

Anyhow, again, Lute has no real options other than Artur, and Artur has a shot at C Joshua I guess, assuming Neimi isn't making it to endgame because she's horrible no matter which way you cut it.

Josh's only support that yields attack at the C level isn't ever happening, but I guess B Natasha isn't completely out of the question.

Either way, the most any of them are feasibly gaining is 1 attack, so it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

[dondon151]

I see, so you ARE advocating for speed-run playstyle.

Reread the OP please.

Why don't you make the OP clearer and state that your objective is to clear HM while lollygagging about as you please?

[Progenitus]

Whenever the game isn't being completed in less than 100 turns (as you seem to imply), then it is entirely possible to get +3 supports and even +2 supports (if they start early enough). Which usually means anything that doesn't involve having Seth soloing half the game will take longer than that.

Also, the point about supports includes durability as well.

Edited February 16, 2012 by IMPrime

[Lord Raven]

smash ignored me i feel great, considering 53 turns is a solid 33% of 150 (which is considered pretty slow and not even that efficient) and if theyre both being used then Lute is most likely going to be a mage knight (not ruling out the Sage possibility, but Mage Knight's better overall). This means you have to glue two frail units together at all times and complete the game inefficiently, not to mention that supports are somewhat superfluous in a game such as this anyway.

[dondon151]

Whenever the game isn't being completed in less than 100 turns (as you seem to imply), then it is entirely possible to get +3 supports and even +2 supports (if they start early enough). Which usually means anything that doesn't involve having Seth soloing half the game will take longer than that.

I'm going to take this very literally and state that even though I completed the game in 118 turns, I did not build a single level of support in that playthrough.

Now the part about "Seth soloing half the game." FE8 drafts traditionally have Seth banned, yet the FE8 draft hall of fame yields 5 completed instances of FE8 being completed in less than 138 turns without Seth. General Horace's 137 turn completion is without the use of mounted units. So I'd think that a reasonable assumption for your currently self-contradictory rating criteria is a 138 turn completion, max. This covers all playstyles from complete LTC to ~33% slower than LTC.

Edited February 16, 2012 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm going to take this very literally and state that even though I completed the game in 118 turns, I did not build a single level of support in that playthrough.

Now the part about "Seth soloing half the game." FE8 drafts traditionally have Seth banned, yet the FE8 draft hall of fame yields 5 completed instances of FE8 being completed in less than 138 turns without Seth. General Horace's 137 turn completion is without the use of mounted units. So I'd think that a reasonable assumption for your currently self-contradictory rating criteria is a 138 turn completion, max. This covers all playstyles from complete LTC to ~33% slower than LTC.

Except as you yourself pointed out:

Why don't you make the OP clearer and state that your objective is to clear HM while lollygagging about as you please?

^This is smash's true speed. Don't forget how few chapters it takes him to get Zihark an A support in fe10.

[Progenitus]

At this point I'm simply going to point to the recent LTC flame war on the general board and end the conversation here. There's no point in reiterating what was said there, as many of the complaints are in the same vein.

Edited February 16, 2012 by IMPrime

[General Horace]

i clearly reset a ton to have gilliam and garcia be a combined 7 points of speed screwed by endgame, yep.

[dondon151]

They're standard drafts. But you know that is beside the point; you are just looking for something to strawman, I can tell.

Edited February 16, 2012 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

Are these drafts you're referring to standard drafts, or are they the SF-esque kind drafts with rampant RNG abusing and resetting for perfect strategies?

Even if they did, you think that'll bump the turns up to 200 or something?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Narga_Rocks