Priscilla (Red Fox) vs Guy (Inui) HHM ranked

[Florete]

>

In looks and ability.

I'll skip Guy's early game for now, since it's only ~2 1/2 maps and if Priscilla can beat him for the remaining 22-23 maps, I'd think it fairly obvious she's the winner.

I'll put up their stats when they meet for reference.

Guy, lv 5

HP: 26.5

Str: 8.6

Skl: 14

Spd: 14.4

Lck: 5.9 (~34 avoid)

Def: 6.3

Res: 1.5

Con: 5

Mov: 5

Priscilla, lv 3

HP: 16

Str: 6

Skl: 6

Spd: 8

Lck: 7 (23 avoid)

Def: 3

Res: 6

Con: 4

Aid: 16

Mov: 7

Obviously these two have different roles on the field, so comparing their stats directly doesn't really tell us much. Guy fights, Priscilla heals. This is an automatic advantage for Priscilla, seeing as an unpromoted healer is just about the best help you can get for the Experience rank, the toughest rank in the game, and Priscilla is one of only two unpromoted healers, the other being Serra, who has 2 less move than Priscilla and no Aid, making Priscilla superior for the actual healing part of things. Also, when she promotes, the Valkyrie class has a boosted combat experience gain, giving her even more of an edge over Guy.

So, what do we have in Guy? We have, admittedly, a pretty good offensive unit. He will likely be using the Killing Edge when it's worth it because none of the other current Sword users on the team (Marcus, Lowen, Eliwood, Matthew) can use it as well as him, or, in the case of Marcus, even need it at all. This gives him 17.6 atk and 12.4 AS. There is only a single enemy in Ch 14 that has 9 AS, a lv Mercenary at the other end of the map, so Guy's AS can be either 12 or 13 and it really won't make a difference. The atk is the same: I can't find a single enemy that survives 17 atk but is killed by 18.

So what does this mean? It means he can ORKO Archers (lol), Soldiers (lol), Mercenaries (pretty nice since no one else can double them), PK's (hardly any), and Pirates/Brigands (lol). Cavaliers, which are arguably the most annoying enemies on the map, are 2 rounded with 37 crit (~60% on a double). As implied, Archers, Soldiers, and Pirates/Brigands are not really a big deal: Archers can't counter so it's easy to gang up if another guy doesn't kill, Soldiers are doubled by everyone and killed with ease, and Pirates/Brigands can never hit anyone and are also rather slow. The only ones that can really claim better offense against Cavaliers are Marcus (duh) and maybe Hector/Eliwood because of effective weaonry.

However, offense is not the main issue here, defense is. Guy is Sword locked in what we all know is a Lance-heavy game. Soldiers have 14 atk (15 after WTA), which is a 3HKO on Guy even if his 26.5 HP rounds up. They have 65 displayed Hit, ~76% true, which means that after 3 rounds Guy already has a ~44% chance of death, jumping to 75.5% after 4. What's worse, these guys have the lowest Hit of anyone on the map that isn't wielding an Axe even after their WTA is factored in. The Swords aren't quite as threatening because they 4-5HKO him, but that just means he'll be 3-4HKOd when faced with a random assortment of enemies since a good amount are the type that can 3HKO. Like, Iron Lance Cavaliers have a bit more atk and 71% displayed, ~83% true, or a 57% chance of death in 3 hits. Looks like he'll be needing Priscilla's help, eh?

"But Fox, Priscilla's durability is all around worse than Guy's!"

Concretely, yes. However, there's a significant difference; Priscilla's use does not come from entering combat. She should never even be attacked at all, because what she does is heal. Guy, on the other hand, has to fight if he wants to do anything useful, and then his durability comes into question.

But of course, Guy's durability alone is meaningless. How is everyone else doing? For reference, Guy's HP/Def is 26.5/6.3.

Marcus, lv 1: 31/10 HP/Def, full WTC, +3 move, 1-2 range. A clear blowout.

Lowen, lv 4: 24.8/7.8 HP/Def, Lance access, +2 move, 1-2 range, slightly higher experience gain and defensive growths. Wins.

Hector, lv 5: 22.6/10 HP/Def, Axes > Swords for enemies, 1-2 range. Easy winner. C Eliwood for +1 Def.

Oswin, lv 9: 28/13 HP/Def, Lances, 1-2 range. Wins.

Those are the easy ones, the most durable on the team pretty much forever (minus Marcus). Everyone except Eliwood and Matthew have access to 1-2 range, meaning they don't have to take counters on the player phase, and they also don't tend to suffer the same WTD Guy does. In other words, Guy's durability can either be considered average or a liability, which hurts his ability to fight as well, since if you can't take the attack coming you won't be entering into a fight. What's also interesting is that Guy has probably the highest avoid on the team, so even though others are more durable they will still take damage (only Oswin can potentially be tinked), which means Priscilla is being put to use, directly helping the Experience rank in an invaluable way and indirectly helping Tactics by allowing the fighters to keep fighting without having to self-heal. I guess I could also say she's helping Survival. At least Guy isn't doing anything of the sort.

Problem is, it doesn't really get any better for Guy. He never gets 1-2 range, meaning he'll be relying on natural avoid and crits to avoid counters, as well as being at WTD quite often. Pretty much every other fighter on the team either has 1-2 range or will get it upon promotion. Exceptions are Lyn (1 or 2 range, meh), Rebecca and Wil (suck), Karel and Karla (late, suck). This means that even people who are concretely worse than him, mostly magic users, probably see better chances of survival since they don't get attacked as often. This is also a strain on tactical flexibility; 1-2 range means a unit can attack the enemy from a total of 12 spaces, whereas a 1 range lock means there are only 4 spaces to attack from. This hurts positioning strategy for trying to get rid of all the enemies in an area as well the ability to build supports. It is much easier to build support when you have 1-2 range. Take the following, where an 'x' represents a blank space and 'E' represents an enemy.

xxx

ExE

xxx

If Guy's partner wants to also attack up close, the two cannot possibly build support. Try the next one.

xxxxx

xxxxE

Exxxx

xxxxx

If Guy and his partner need to kill these two, there's no possible way to build support unless both can attack from 1-2 range, which Guy cannot.

The following does not deal with support, but rather enemy placement. I have the following situation. 'U' refers to untraversible terrain (wall, water, etc.) and 'P' refers to one of your team members.

xUUx

xPEE

xUUx

Let's think that the second 'E' is an enemy only the visible 'P' can kill, but of course our P can't reach it, and won't be able to unless someone with 1-2 range comes up and kills the dude in front of him. Guy is not helping here.

And then of course, the obvious stuff. Guy can only ever reach an enemy 7 spaces away from him, which even slow guys like Oswin can do. Priscilla, once promoted, can reach any enemy within 10 spaces. In two turns, this becomes 13 spaces for Guy and 18 for Priscilla. Priscilla's advantage only grows as the map continues.

I referenced them before, but now I'll go into detail: Supports. Guy has only two reasonable options: Matthew and Priscilla herself. First, Matthew. This is good earlier on. Not much avoid, but full atk and crit is pretty nice for both. The problem comes a bit later when Matthew level caps and is no longer seeing deployment. No matter what level it's reached, Guy won't be getting it anymore, which is bad because that crit is really beneficial for him.

And then Priscilla. She should be played for the entire game. Same bonuses as Matthew. And now, the problems. #1: Length. 41 turns to C, 40 each for the next two levels. That's 120 turns total. To 5 star Tactics, you only have 335 turns throughout the entire game, so even if they had the entire game together they'd need to spend ~36% of the time next to each other to reach A by the end (when it's not even useful anymore). In reality, they've already lost 11, 12, 13, 13x, and a bit of 14. If we wanted an A by, say, Cog of Destiny, and if we assume every map takes an average of 11.5 turns and 19xx is skipped, that's ~18.5 maps, which means they'd need to spend ~56.4% of their time right next to each other, an obvious tactical inflexibility.

What's worse for Guy is that he is the only one that needs this support. He needs the crit and atk to have any kind of reliable ORKO %'s against a lot of enemies, but Priscilla doesn't care. It's nothing before she promotes and after she promotes the 1-3 atk and 5-15 crit won't likely help her too much since enemies already tend to have very low Res. In other words, this is a one-sided support; Guy's "team" needs to have this tactical inflexibility for him to be good, while Priscilla's "team" does not even need to have Guy at all. She'll take a triangle with Raven and Lucius or Erk alone over Guy any day, since they're faster and generally benefit her more. It should also be noted that once Matthew is out of the picture, Priscilla is all that is helping to boost Guy's crit to respectable levels; Without her, he becomes worse, which means I can partially credit Priscilla for helping out Guy.

One last thing before I conclude: Rescuing. Priscilla has a horse for re-moving and 16-15 Aid. You want to know who this doesn't Rescue? Dorcas, Oswin, Hawkeye, Wallace, all post promotion. Everyone else she can Rescue. What's the point, you ask? Well, sometimes healing is not what you need or want. Sometimes you need to get one unit out of the way, like if someone is in the only spot to attack an enemy from but you want someone else to attack, or if you want to quickly transport someone to the front lines, like Hector or before promotion Oswin. Guy's 7 move, 4-5 Aid, and lack of move again has nothing on this.

So since this is ranked, let's go over how our units helped each one, in order of importance:

Experience: Priscilla via her own experience pool of healing and promoted fighting w/ class experience boost, Guy via normal combat experience. Edge: Priscilla.

Tactics: Priscilla via healing and transporting as well as fighting after promotion, Guy via fighting. Edge: Priscilla.

Funds: Guy's Swords are more expensive than Priscilla's magic tomes and staves, and he'll also be using more. Edge: Priscilla.

Survival: Priscilla heals. Edge: Priscilla.

Combat: Guy starts with decent combat but falters a bit later on. Priscilla starts with no combat so doesn't effect it until she promotes, where she's decent. Edge: Tie.

I think it's pretty clear who's winning.

[Inui]

In looks and ability.

That depends. I absolutely love teenage boys. They are adorable and delicious, lol. That means Guy has a default advantage for me. Guy also wins to most females. Both are exceptionally good looking, though, so whatever.

I'll skip Guy's early game for now, since it's only ~2 1/2 maps and if Priscilla can beat him for the remaining 22-23 maps, I'd think it fairly obvious she's the winner.

I won't, since Guy's awesome during that time and it absolutely slaughters your level assumption for him.

Rather than spending time to type stuff out, I shall paraphrase something written up by my good buddy HJ:

Anyway, though you mention that Guy is there for 2.5 more chapters, you fail to mention just how much of an advantage this actually is. See, Guy is a monster early on. Being one of three units who can DA enemies early on (the others being Matthew and Marcus), his offense is instantly amazing, and with 25 HP and 6 Def he also beats Matthew, who has 1 less of each if he’s lvl 10. It doesn’t stop there, though, Guy also outperforms most of your team defensively. I don’t know the actual stats, but I think we can both agree brigands have approximately 45% hit on Eliwood and Lowen, which translates to 39% real hit. If both Lowen and Eliwood have 8 Spd at this point, which means they both got at least two levels (a perfectly fair amount, I’d say) then Guy has 5 more AS, which gives him 10 more Avoid. In that case, brigands have approximately 35% hit on Guy as well, but but that actually translates to 25% real hit. That’s almost 15%. Again, his durability is amazing compared to the rest of your team except Matthew, Marcus and Oswin. Hector has nice Def as well, but even at level 8 which is rather steep, he only has 25 HP. At this point he can take 4 hits from brigands, but they also have 65-70% hit on him, which translates to approximately 80% real. Guy can take two hits, but is much less likely to get hit. Guy actually has better survivability than Hector as well, meaning only Matthew (arguably), Oswin and Marcus have better durability.

This is especially useful in 13x, one of the hardest chapters in the game, since Guy can actually move out of that little isle you start on without worrying about getting ambushed from all sides and instantly dying, which most people can’t. Guy can easily take on three-four brigands at once and live, even without help from a forest, and he weakens them down more than any other character except Marcus. Eventually the enemies start piling up too, and unless you can get rid of them at a brisk pace, they will suddenly bring in Myrmidons and Nomads, overrun you and kill Merlinus, leading to game over. That is, if Eliwood and/or Hector weren’t trying to protect Merlinus and got raped in the process already. Speaking of Nomads, only Guy and Matthew can double them, and Myrmidons have 12 AS, making them a very real threat, since they DA some of your units.

Last but not least, if you do need to wall yourself in, Guy is a prime candidate for doing it, since he happens to be one of the four units who can do it and not risk death. Guy is also the second-best option for it. Oswin is equally durable, but doesn’t double. Matthew is also equally durable, but has less Str, and Marcus is still > Guy in both offense and defense. Either way, there are four holes to plug, so you pretty much need all four units for the last 2-ish turns where the onslaught becomes too insane and you gotta shell in. It’s pretty obvious that Guy is invaluable in this chapter.

Basically, his offense is amazing and second only to Marcus's and his defense is actually quite nice. He joins at level 3 halfway in Chapter 13, gets all of 13x to be a baller, and then has half of 14 or more before Priscilla joins to build a level lead and be a BAMF. Guy is getting ~30 EXP per kill and he's good at getting said kills. You putting him at level 5 implies he scored a mere 6 kills or so, which is probably close to what he can snag in Chapter 13 alone. There's no way a unit with his offense and defense is only getting ~6 kills in 2.5 chapters.

I'll put up their stats when they meet for reference.

Guy, lv 8

HP: 28.75

Str: 9.5

Skl: 15.5

Spd: 16.5

Lck: 7.25 (~40 avoid)

Def: 6.75

Res: 2.25

Con: 5

Mov: 5

Priscilla, lv 3

HP: 16

Str: 6

Skl: 6

Spd: 8

Lck: 7 (23 avoid)

Def: 3

Res: 6

Con: 4

Aid: 16

Mov: 7

I fixed Guy for you.

Look at Guy's stats. He has the second best offense after Marcus. He fails to double nothing for the entire game. Lowen needs to be lv ~10 to have Guy's Str and he never has his Spd or Skl. Eliwood loses in Spd by a lot and won't have Guy's Str until lvl 11. Guy's gap in offense between him and everyone else besides Marcus is quite substantial, and can't be ignored. In terms of defense, he has the best base Evd by far already and pretty much always does, and he's got around 29 HP/7 Def, which is giving him about a 5 HP win on Eliwood, which means he takes a whole additional hit to die, and he has huge Evd wins on your axe d00ds and Lowen.

Obviously these two have different roles on the field, so comparing their stats directly doesn't really tell us much. Guy fights, Priscilla heals. This is an automatic advantage for Priscilla, seeing as an unpromoted healer is just about the best help you can get for the Experience rank, the toughest rank in the game, and Priscilla is one of only two unpromoted healers, the other being Serra, who has 2 less move than Priscilla and no Aid, making Priscilla superior for the actual healing part of things. Also, when she promotes, the Valkyrie class has a boosted combat experience gain, giving her even more of an edge over Guy.

I disagree about the difficulty of the Experience rank.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/rank2.html

Check out the turn requirements for Tactics. They're pretty cruel and downright crazy. Guy clears out enemies really quickly early on, which means he can contribute to shaving off turns to make meeting the crazy requirements easier.

Guy fights, and Priscilla heals. This is an automatic advantage for Priscilla in nothing but the Experience rank, and Guy has great EXP gains throughout the game and will end up gaining the same amount of EXP overall as Priscilla, if not more, by the game's end, so does she really win Experience by so much? Not really. Priscilla can't contribute to killing enemies or protecting units, too.

lol @ Serra comparison being limited to Priscilla's 2 Mov and a useless stat like Aid

Serra has Lyn's story and then several chapters to gain levels before Priscilla even exists.

Serra, lv 10

HP: 21.5

Mag: 6.5

Skl: 7.7

Spd: 11.6

Lck: 11.4

Def: 3.35

Res: 9.95

Mov: 5

Serra destroys her in durability and Priscilla's lower level doesn't make her gain any more EXP. Serra is also closer to promotion. Ah, promotion. That can be addressed later.

So, what do we have in Guy? We have, admittedly, a pretty good offensive unit. He will likely be using the Killing Edge when it's worth it because none of the other current Sword users on the team (Marcus, Lowen, Eliwood, Matthew) can use it as well as him, or, in the case of Marcus, even need it at all. This gives him 17.6 atk and 12.4 AS. There is only a single enemy in Ch 14 that has 9 AS, a lv Mercenary at the other end of the map, so Guy's AS can be either 12 or 13 and it really won't make a difference. The atk is the same: I can't find a single enemy that survives 17 atk but is killed by 18.

So what does this mean? It means he can ORKO Archers (lol), Soldiers (lol), Mercenaries (pretty nice since no one else can double them), PK's (hardly any), and Pirates/Brigands (lol). Cavaliers, which are arguably the most annoying enemies on the map, are 2 rounded with 37 crit (~60% on a double). As implied, Archers, Soldiers, and Pirates/Brigands are not really a big deal: Archers can't counter so it's easy to gang up if another guy doesn't kill, Soldiers are doubled by everyone and killed with ease, and Pirates/Brigands can never hit anyone and are also rather slow. The only ones that can really claim better offense against Cavaliers are Marcus (duh) and maybe Hector/Eliwood because of effective weaonry.

The numbers are a bit lower than they should be in your paragraph, but hey, he's a baller in offense anyways and beats everyone but Marcus.

How fast are those Archers? 5 Spd? If so, a level 6 Eliwood can double them. Everyone else fails to double them. If they have 6 Spd, Eliwood isn't doubling them yet. Everyone else besides Matthew/Marcus/Guy is slower than Eliwood. Yeah, I don't think ORKOing Archers is something to ignore. If Guy kills it one turn, some other unit can spend that turn hurting something else. That's better.

Cavaliers have like 7-8 Atk Spd, right? Those dudes can even avoid being doubled by Marcus half the time. Dang. Well, Guy destroys them with the Killing Edge, so whatever.

As shown already, Pirates and Brigands have a real Hit rate even on sword users right now, which means they are a definite threat. Well, not a threat to Guy, since his Evd is on crack and he has high HP. They are a definite threat to others, though. I believe they have 5-6 Atk Spd, which puts them in the same range as the Archers, no? Guy doubles them all with ease and slaughters them, but other units either don't double or on the cusp of doubling where the significant chance of them being a point below average means they don't double.

However, offense is not the main issue here, defense is. Guy is Sword locked in what we all know is a Lance-heavy game. Soldiers have 14 atk (15 after WTA), which is a 3HKO on Guy even if his 26.5 HP rounds up. They have 65 displayed Hit, ~76% true, which means that after 3 rounds Guy already has a ~44% chance of death, jumping to 75.5% after 4. What's worse, these guys have the lowest Hit of anyone on the map that isn't wielding an Axe even after their WTA is factored in. The Swords aren't quite as threatening because they 4-5HKO him, but that just means he'll be 3-4HKOd when faced with a random assortment of enemies since a good amount are the type that can 3HKO. Like, Iron Lance Cavaliers have a bit more atk and 71% displayed, ~83% true, or a 57% chance of death in 3 hits. Looks like he'll be needing Priscilla's help, eh?

Guy should have ~6 more Evd than what you are showing here. If Guy is being attacked by that many enemies, you're making tactical errors. There is a forest he can sit in on this map to bait in the Cavaliers, and that means +20 Evd and +1 Def, which means he no longer cares about WTDA at all and is in basically no danger of dying.

"But Fox, Priscilla's durability is all around worse than Guy's!"

Concretely, yes. However, there's a significant difference; Priscilla's use does not come from entering combat. She should never even be attacked at all, because what she does is heal. Guy, on the other hand, has to fight if he wants to do anything useful, and then his durability comes into question.

And that brings up a good point; the enemy phase. On said enemy phase, Priscilla is a 100% worthless unit. She can't even be used as dodge-bait like Clarine in FE 6 because her durability is horrible. She can't counter enemies. This means her mobility is limited and she has to be shielded, which can slow you down, countering her benefits to Tactics. Guy is never 100% worthless on the enemy phase like Priscilla is. Priscilla can gain her 12 EXP per turn with Mend or whatever and Guy can gain ~30 on the enemy phase and then ~30 on his turn. So much for Priscilla being awesome for the Experience rank, eh?

Thankfully, Guy having to fight to be useful is just fine since he's so good at it.

But of course, Guy's durability alone is meaningless. How is everyone else doing? For reference, Guy's HP/Def is 26.5/6.3.

Marcus, lv 1: 31/10 HP/Def, full WTC, +3 move, 1-2 range. A clear blowout.

Lowen, lv 4: 24.8/7.8 HP/Def, Lance access, +2 move, 1-2 range, slightly higher experience gain and defensive growths. Wins.

Hector, lv 5: 22.6/10 HP/Def, Axes > Swords for enemies, 1-2 range. Easy winner. C Eliwood for +1 Def.

Oswin, lv 9: 28/13 HP/Def, Lances, 1-2 range. Wins.

Those are the easy ones, the most durable on the team pretty much forever (minus Marcus). Everyone except Eliwood and Matthew have access to 1-2 range, meaning they don't have to take counters on the player phase, and they also don't tend to suffer the same WTD Guy does. In other words, Guy's durability can either be considered average or a liability, which hurts his ability to fight as well, since if you can't take the attack coming you won't be entering into a fight. What's also interesting is that Guy has probably the highest avoid on the team, so even though others are more durable they will still take damage (only Oswin can potentially be tinked), which means Priscilla is being put to use, directly helping the Experience rank in an invaluable way and indirectly helping Tactics by allowing the fighters to keep fighting without having to self-heal. I guess I could also say she's helping Survival. At least Guy isn't doing anything of the sort.

Dang, Marcus beats him in the earlygame!? What a horrible unit! Get off of my team, Guy!

Anyways, it's obvious that Oswin wins in defense too, but Guy destroys him in offense and has 1 more Mov, so it's fine.

Hector, as shown, faces real hit chances against axe users and enemies in general. Even with his WTA and Guy's WTDA, they face around the same Hit against Cavaliers.

Even going by your numbers which nerf Guy, Guy's above average in durability. You showed top tier. Eliwood, Bartre, Rebecca, etc. are under that. And guess what? Guy's above all the rest, even a leveled up Dorcas.

Problem is, it doesn't really get any better for Guy. He never gets 1-2 range, meaning he'll be relying on natural avoid and crits to avoid counters, as well as being at WTD quite often. Pretty much every other fighter on the team either has 1-2 range or will get it upon promotion. Exceptions are Lyn (1 or 2 range, meh), Rebecca and Wil (suck), Karel and Karla (late, suck). This means that even people who are concretely worse than him, mostly magic users, probably see better chances of survival since they don't get attacked as often. This is also a strain on tactical flexibility; 1-2 range means a unit can attack the enemy from a total of 12 spaces, whereas a 1 range lock means there are only 4 spaces to attack from. This hurts positioning strategy for trying to get rid of all the enemies in an area as well the ability to build supports. It is much easier to build support when you have 1-2 range. Take the following, where an 'x' represents a blank space and 'E' represents an enemy.

Thankfully for Guy, he can often just kill things before they counter them and his Evd is high enough to just dodge. What matters most is durability on the enemy phase. You are attacked waaaaay more on that phase than the player phase. Guy can eat one counter if he's even it on the player phase. Okay, cool. He can be healed, rescued, shielded, or whatever if he's in real danger of dying (chances are, he's not). It's easy to manage. On the enemy phase, he's destroying the casters in HP, Def, and Evd.

Guy can counter on the enemy phase unless the enemy is attacking him from afar. Guess what? The majority of enemies don’t. It’s supply and demand, really; you have plenty units who can wreck the scrubs on the enemy phase (with Guy often being one of them), but few who can wreck the non-scrubs on the player phase, and certainly not as well as Guy does it. Countering 2-range enemies is certainly advantageous, but that point loses a lot of its shine when you suddenly remember Guy still counters most of the time.

By "non-scrubs" I mean things like Nomadic Troopers, Heroes, and promoted enemies in trouble that are a real threat. For instance, there is a 20/10 Hero in Four-Fanged Offense that I remember that has a silver sword. Guy will double this d00d and kill with a critical. Who else doubles it? Nobody. IIRC, it has like 16 Spd or some shit.

xxx

ExE

xxx

If Guy's partner wants to also attack up close, the two cannot possibly build support. Try the next one.

xxxxx

xxxxE

Exxxx

xxxxx

If Guy and his partner need to kill these two, there's no possible way to build support unless both can attack from 1-2 range, which Guy cannot.

Dang, this sure blows for Guy and the better that gets the best bonuses from him, Priscilla.

The following does not deal with support, but rather enemy placement. I have the following situation. 'U' refers to untraversible terrain (wall, water, etc.) and 'P' refers to one of your team members.

xUUx

xPEE

xUUx

Let's think that the second 'E' is an enemy only the visible 'P' can kill, but of course our P can't reach it, and won't be able to unless someone with 1-2 range comes up and kills the dude in front of him. Guy is not helping here.

This would be a good point if one simple fact didn't exist; there aren't any enemies unit P can kill that Guy can't, so unit P and his good offense can kill the first E and then Guy can mutilate the second one, and chances are Guy is beating unit P in offense anyways.

And then of course, the obvious stuff. Guy can only ever reach an enemy 7 spaces away from him, which even slow guys like Oswin can do. Priscilla, once promoted, can reach any enemy within 10 spaces. In two turns, this becomes 13 spaces for Guy and 18 for Priscilla. Priscilla's advantage only grows as the map continues.

Priscilla with her horrible HP and Def is rushing to the front lines? Risky player here! Priscilla has Guy's 5-8/0 concrete durability at 20/1 and slightly more Evd. Priscilla isn't rushing ahead at all unless you like restarting chapters.

I referenced them before, but now I'll go into detail: Supports. Guy has only two reasonable options: Matthew and Priscilla herself. First, Matthew. This is good earlier on. Not much avoid, but full atk and crit is pretty nice for both. The problem comes a bit later when Matthew level caps and is no longer seeing deployment. No matter what level it's reached, Guy won't be getting it anymore, which is bad because that crit is really beneficial for him.

And then Priscilla. She should be played for the entire game. Same bonuses as Matthew. And now, the problems. #1: Length. 41 turns to C, 40 each for the next two levels. That's 120 turns total. To 5 star Tactics, you only have 335 turns throughout the entire game, so even if they had the entire game together they'd need to spend ~36% of the time next to each other to reach A by the end (when it's not even useful anymore). In reality, they've already lost 11, 12, 13, 13x, and a bit of 14. If we wanted an A by, say, Cog of Destiny, and if we assume every map takes an average of 11.5 turns and 19xx is skipped, that's ~18.5 maps, which means they'd need to spend ~56.4% of their time right next to each other, an obvious tactical inflexibility.

What's worse for Guy is that he is the only one that needs this support. He needs the crit and atk to have any kind of reliable ORKO %'s against a lot of enemies, but Priscilla doesn't care. It's nothing before she promotes and after she promotes the 1-3 atk and 5-15 crit won't likely help her too much since enemies already tend to have very low Res. In other words, this is a one-sided support; Guy's "team" needs to have this tactical inflexibility for him to be good, while Priscilla's "team" does not even need to have Guy at all. She'll take a triangle with Raven and Lucius or Erk alone over Guy any day, since they're faster and generally benefit her more. It should also be noted that once Matthew is out of the picture, Priscilla is all that is helping to boost Guy's crit to respectable levels; Without her, he becomes worse, which means I can partially credit Priscilla for helping out Guy.

According to this site, it's 310 turns. Which makes supports even gayer unless they build super fast! Thankfully, Guy doesn't care much at all. He has ~60 Crit after promoting and S ranking swords without supports and he's HM boosted. He'll get a critical over half the time. If he attacks something, he's going to get one critical, and that enemy is going to die. 60% of the time, he kills it before eating a counter or saves a weapon use. He doesn't need the supports.

Priscilla is the one that needs the supports because of her loltastic durability. She needs any bit of Evd and Def she can get. Her offense actually needs that bit of Atk and Crit. A 20/1 Priscilla has 20 Atk with no supports. She one-rounds Knights barely, if they have like lower 30's HP and around 2-3 Res. A 20/15 Priscilla with A Raven/B Lucius with Thunder has 31 Atk and has 33 with Elfire. She does 42 damage to a VoD General that has 43 HP. Oh snap, a Guy support over a Raven one would have let her get the kill! Let's see what else... She gets a Falco Knight literally exactly with Elfire. If her Mag is one point below average? If she fails to double when she's losing 4 Spd from Elfire? She doesn't get it. A Guy support lets her do it, if only a single one over going for the A with Raven. Offensively against magic users, Guy destroys her. Instead of double 11's to the Valks, Guy just slaughters them. Priscilla counters promoted magic users, but doesn't kill them. She gets the scrubby Shamans, but who doesn't? Guy doesn't need to be countering these because he can be off raping some other part of the map, like eating up those Falco Knights as they show up or killing those pesky Valks that Priscilla tickles.

One last thing before I conclude: Rescuing. Priscilla has a horse for re-moving and 16-15 Aid. You want to know who this doesn't Rescue? Dorcas, Oswin, Hawkeye, Wallace, all post promotion. Everyone else she can Rescue. What's the point, you ask? Well, sometimes healing is not what you need or want. Sometimes you need to get one unit out of the way, like if someone is in the only spot to attack an enemy from but you want someone else to attack, or if you want to quickly transport someone to the front lines, like Hector or before promotion Oswin. Guy's 7 move, 4-5 Aid, and lack of move again has nothing on this.

This point is the most minor thing you could ever bring up due to how situational it is. If you're in a position where you want to rescue, which will eat up 3 total unit turns at the very minimum, than you're bad. That is horrible for efficiency. The amount of times this is useful in the game for Priscilla to specifically do over someone else might be 1 or 2 at most.

So since this is ranked, let's go over how our units helped each one, in order of importance:

Experience: Priscilla via her own experience pool of healing and promoted fighting w/ class experience boost, Guy via normal combat experience. Edge: Priscilla.

Tactics: Priscilla via healing and transporting as well as fighting after promotion, Guy via fighting. Edge: Priscilla.

Funds: Guy's Swords are more expensive than Priscilla's magic tomes and staves, and he'll also be using more. Edge: Priscilla.

Survival: Priscilla heals. Edge: Priscilla.

Combat: Guy starts with decent combat but falters a bit later on. Priscilla starts with no combat so doesn't effect it until she promotes, where she's decent. Edge: Tie.

Okay.

Priscilla has a slight edge because she doesn't take away from CEXP as much, but the game cares about total EXP gained, which is going to end up around the same for both units regardless of her class bonus since Guy has a big level lead.

Guy kills things. You need to kill to advance forward and finish chapters. Healing doesn't clear away enemies. Guy is good at killing when almost everyone else is bad at it and then he just gets exponentially better at it and he eventually beats everyone by a lot.

Guy uses expensive stuff. Priscilla gets to be a bit cheaper. In the end, does this matter much? Nah. Matthew steals the Silver Card, and then Funds becomes kinda silly.

Priscilla can have Survival since it doesn't matter that much. The big problem is Tactics, then Experience. Combat needs 40% of all battles to end in wins, which Guy is amazing at, and Priscilla is worthless at until she promotes and not special even after that.

Guy never falters in offense. If anything, he justs gets better and better, like, exponentially so. He kills the strong enemies that everyone else can't, like bosses and promoted enemies. Everyone takes out the garbage, but Guy kills the tough guys. Guy is amazing for Combat.

Anyways, counting each rank evenly like this is pointless because they are nowhere near equal in difficulty or importance.

Oh, hey, there's one huge point here we forgot to mention until now: PROMOTION.

Erk and Serra are walking all over Priscilla in terms of level and stats and everything else. Lucius will either have a level lead or be at the same level as Priscilla but then gain EXP faster because he's a fighter. Canas is level 8 in Chapter 17x and Priscilla needs to heal 42 times with Mend to reach that level and the maximum turns allowed before Canas joins (giving her 3 turns for Chapter 14) give her only ~35 turns to heal if she heals every single turn, so she won't even have a level lead on Canas. You get a Guiding Ring in Chapter 18. Then another in Chapter 20, IIRC. Priscilla won't even be at level 10 on the Pirate Ship, so there goes her using the first one. Erk/Lucius/Serra will be 20/0 at the Dragons Gate and Canas will have a level lead, so does she even get the second one? She is probably promoting with an Earth Seal later on or something, like in Chapter 24. That is horrible. Guy has a big level lead on Raven and catches up to Dorcas (who kinda sucks) so he doesn't have any promotion issues. Sure, he makes Raven promote a bit later, but that's better than being at a lower level than everyone else wanting that item and shafting multiple units instead of one.

[Florete]

Anyway, though you mention that Guy is there for 2.5 more chapters, you fail to mention just how much of an advantage this actually is.

Now that I think about it, it's more like two chapters. Priscilla comes a few turns into 14 but Guy also comes a few (probably more) turns into 13, so it evens out.

I don’t know the actual stats, but I think we can both agree brigands have approximately 45% hit on Eliwood and Lowen, which translates to 39% real hit. If both Lowen and Eliwood have 8 Spd at this point, which means they both got at least two levels (a perfectly fair amount, I’d say) then Guy has 5 more AS, which gives him 10 more Avoid. In that case, brigands have approximately 35% hit on Guy as well, but but that actually translates to 25% real hit. That’s almost 15%.

Ah, but see, you left out Luck. If this Eliwood has gained 2 levels, he has a 3 Luck advantage, which reduces that 10 to 7. In other words, If Eliwood sees 45%, Guy actually sees 38%, or 29% true, which is only a 10% advantage. Lowen actually has 1 less Luck, but better concrete durability and 1-2 range to avoid counters.

Again, his durability is amazing compared to the rest of your team except Matthew, Marcus and Oswin. Hector has nice Def as well, but even at level 8 which is rather steep, he only has 25 HP. At this point he can take 4 hits from brigands, but they also have 65-70% hit on him, which translates to approximately 80% real. Guy can take two hits, but is much less likely to get hit. Guy actually has better survivability than Hector as well, meaning only Matthew (arguably), Oswin and Marcus have better durability.

Guy beats Eliwood, I'll give you that. But the others? Not as likely. Everyone else has 1-2 range in the form of Hand Axe and/or Javelin to avoid player phase counters, and even Hector and Eliwood can get a quick C for +5 avoid and +1 Def, which actually makes Eliwood's durability dangerously close to Guy's.

This is especially useful in 13x, one of the hardest chapters in the game, since Guy can actually move out of that little isle you start on without worrying about getting ambushed from all sides and instantly dying, which most people can’t.

And what's the point? The only objectives in this map are to visit the village (Marcus) and survive. Sure, Guy might be able to venture out, but it won't help me any.

Plus, I don't see how you can call this one of the hardest maps in the game. I usually find it to be pretty easy. Guy and Matthew dodge tank Axes at the bottom right, Dorcas, Bartre, and Oswin can pretty easily the handle the left end with the Snag, and everyone else (Eliwood, Hector, Marcus, Rebecca, and Lowen) can handle the north with Serra jumping wherever she needs to be. Plus there are plenty of Forests for everyone to take advantage of.

Guy can easily take on three-four brigands at once and live, even without help from a forest,

Waitwaitwait, no. Base level Guy w/Killing Edge (Because I doubt he'll have gained a level yet) has 27 avoid on his own with 25/6 HP/Def. Iron Axe Brigands have ~16 atk (3HKO) and ~83 Hit, so 41 displayed on Guy, or ~34 true. That's almost a 12% chance of death in 4 attacks, and if he doesn't die he'll likely have to heal himself instead of using his player phase to attacked 2 range enemies like Nomads and Hand Axe Brigands. I wouldn't call that "easy."

You putting him at level 5 implies he scored a mere 6 kills or so, which is probably close to what he can snag in Chapter 13 alone.

lolWut? No fucking way. You get him, at best, halfway through, and even if he gets something to fight it will have a Lance, so he won't even be a good fighter in 13. 2 or 3 kills in 13 would be generous. Also, don't forget to account for decreased experience gain after leveling.

I fixed Guy for you.

Level 8? That's pretty lol. My 5 was probably low, but 8 is too much. 6.5 sounds like a good compromise, especially since there aren't even any Axe users around before Priscilla shows up.

Look at Guy's stats. He has the second best offense after Marcus. He fails to double nothing for the entire game. Lowen needs to be lv ~10 to have Guy's Str and he never has his Spd or Skl. Eliwood loses in Spd by a lot and won't have Guy's Str until lvl 11. Guy's gap in offense between him and everyone else besides Marcus is quite substantial, and can't be ignored.

Early game offense is good for Guy, yes.

In terms of defense, he has the best base Evd by far already and pretty much always does, and he's got around 29 HP/7 Def, which is giving him about a 5 HP win on Eliwood, which means he takes a whole additional hit to die, and he has huge Evd wins on your axe d00ds and Lowen.

He beats Eliwood in durability. Congrats.

I disagree about the difficulty of the Experience rank.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/rank2.html

Check out the turn requirements for Tactics. They're pretty cruel and downright crazy. Guy clears out enemies really quickly early on, which means he can contribute to shaving off turns to make meeting the crazy requirements easier.

Tactics is only hard because Experience is nuts. You've proven nothing by showing me that link. For example, 12 turns for Ch 13? That's easy. 10 is probably a good turn count for that. And there's stuff like 25 for Genesis when you can probably do it in like 15 if you pace yourself and another 25 for PFoD Jerme (which is likely since Priscilla, Erk, Serra, and Lucius are collectively > Bartre, Raven, Guy, and Dorcas. Bartre and Dorcas won't likely be played for long, but I wouldn't be surprised to see all four of those magic users in, maybe leaving Lucius out) is just laughable.

No, Experience rank is the real bitch. I posted this on FEF so I'll repost it here:

If you assume 19xx and 32x are skipped, then you need ~1513 Experience on average per map for 5 stars, which is a bit more than 15 full levels. Looking at Tactics under the same assumptions, every map has to be ~11.5 turns on average for 5 stars. That's ~131.6 experience every turn.

Yes, that's right. ~131.6 experience per turn. You need all the experience you can get, and Priscilla drawing it from her own experience pool and taking it from either no one or just Serra as opposed to Guy taking it from every fighter is a massive boon.

Guy fights, and Priscilla heals. This is an automatic advantage for Priscilla in nothing but the Experience rank, and Guy has great EXP gains throughout the game and will end up gaining the same amount of EXP overall as Priscilla, if not more, by the game's end, so does she really win Experience by so much? Not really. Priscilla can't contribute to killing enemies or protecting units, too.

As I just pointed, this is much bigger than that narrow-minded deduction might lead one to believe. Yeah, Guy will likely get a similar amount throughout the game (most likely less. Priscilla/Serra are the ones most likely to reach 20/20 while Guy will probably only hit 20/10-20/15), but to get it, he takes it from every other fighter on the field. If Guy kills an enemy for 30 experience, that means Eliwood couldn't kill the enemy for the same 30, so Guy isn't really helping the Experience rank at all. Or, if he gains 30 as opposed to someone like Oswin who would've gained maybe 20, he's still only gained 10 more, and there are plenty of other fighters who can get just as much or even more experience than him (Matthew, for example, gains more until he level caps). However, Priscilla can come in and heal someone and not steal experience from anyone but Serra, who might not have even been in range, or may have already healed that turn, essentially making Priscilla's gains free while none of Guy's are.

And I'll go further. Take the Torch staff you get. That'll grant 150 free experience overall, and since Serra is the only other healer around at the time, Priscilla can practically be credited for half of it, 75. Then there's Unlock for 10 uses of 17 experience, Restore for 10 uses/20 exp, Hammerne for 3 and 40, buyable Barriers for 15 and 17 (h4x), Silence, Sleep, Rescue, Warp... And that's just the free experience. That doesn't even go into what those staves can do for you. Barriers make the multitudes of enemies in a place like CoD much more bearable. Rescue and Warp can either save a unit in need or help to finish a map faster. And then use Hammerne on the Warp staff so that you can get a total of 714 essentially free experience out of one staff.

lol @ Serra comparison being limited to Priscilla's 2 Mov and a useless stat like Aid

Serra has Lyn's story and then several chapters to gain levels before Priscilla even exists.

Serra, lv 10

HP: 21.5

Mag: 6.5

Skl: 7.7

Spd: 11.6

Lck: 11.4

Def: 3.35

Res: 9.95

Mov: 5

Serra destroys her in durability and Priscilla's lower level doesn't make her gain any more EXP. Serra is also closer to promotion. Ah, promotion. That can be addressed later.

It was not about who's better overall, so Lyn's story is completely pointless, as well as promotion. The point is that both will be used but until Serra actually does promote, Priscilla is better at reaching your allies to heal them. Priscilla's lower level will also allow her to gain more overall experience in the long run.

Yeah, I don't think ORKOing Archers is something to ignore. If Guy kills it one turn, some other unit can spend that turn hurting something else. That's better.

Better, but not amazing. Archers are like the easiest thing for anyone to take on at this point.

As shown already, Pirates and Brigands have a real Hit rate even on sword users right now, which means they are a definite threat. Well, not a threat to Guy, since his Evd is on crack and he has high HP.

Nope, not a threat to Guy, but to everyone else. Guess what that means? That's right, we need healing, because Guy is not a one-man team. And unfortunately for Guy, these are the only enemies he can claim good durability against. Everything else makes him look much worse defensively as I pointed out before.

Guy should have ~6 more Evd than what you are showing here. If Guy is being attacked by that many enemies, you're making tactical errors. There is a forest he can sit in on this map to bait in the Cavaliers, and that means +20 Evd and +1 Def, which means he no longer cares about WTDA at all and is in basically no danger of dying.

Well then, I'm glad I have units like Oswin and Hector and Marcus who are less prone to tactical errors due to having better durability. And a Forest is not always possible. It rains a lot, and sometimes you need to move him out if you want him to attack something.

And that brings up a good point; the enemy phase. On said enemy phase, Priscilla is a 100% worthless unit. She can't even be used as dodge-bait like Clarine in FE 6 because her durability is horrible. She can't counter enemies. This means her mobility is limited and she has to be shielded, which can slow you down, countering her benefits to Tactics.

This is another narrow-minded view of things. On the surface, you're right, Priscilla does nothing on the enemy phase. However, her contributions contribute much to every enemy phase. Let's say someone, I'll use Eliwood, got hit on the enemy and phase and the enemy is still there. Without a heal, he needs to take a Vulnerary, but now the enemy is still there and will attack either him or someone else. If Priscilla heals him, he can kill the enemy, ultimately increasing your enemy phase efficiency. And with this type of strategy in mind, you should never have to go out of your way to shield Priscilla, especially since it was apparently a tactical error to have Guy attacked by too many enemies.

Guy is never 100% worthless on the enemy phase like Priscilla is. Priscilla can gain her 12 EXP per turn with Mend or whatever and Guy can gain ~30 on the enemy phase and then ~30 on his turn. So much for Priscilla being awesome for the Experience rank, eh?

Experience part already covered. As for his enemy phase, yeah, he can be 100% useless. Look at a map like CoD or Genesis that's filled with 1-2 range enemies. He won't be countering. Useless.

Thankfully, Guy having to fight to be useful is just fine since he's so good at it.

For now.

Dang, Marcus beats him in the earlygame!? What a horrible unit! Get off of my team, Guy!

Agreed.

Even going by your numbers which nerf Guy, Guy's above average in durability. You showed top tier. Eliwood, Bartre, Rebecca, etc. are under that. And guess what? Guy's above all the rest, even a leveled up Dorcas.

I covered all them, actually, just not in as much detail. This isn't much of a counter.

What matters most is durability on the enemy phase. You are attacked waaaaay more on that phase than the player phase.

I agree, which is Guy's main problem. Everyone knows this game is Lance heavy. Let's assume Guy can reach 20/1 by FFO. He has 52-53 avoid. Steel Lance Wyverns have ~83 hit, which is ~45 displayed on Guy. They should be 4HKOing him, so after 5 attacks he already has ~10% chance of death. What's it like compared to others?

lv 20/1 Raven: With an Axe, he wins in every defensive parameter possible. lol.

lv 5 Marcus: This is probably a low leve, but the number rounded nicely. Anyway, he sees ~38 displayed, 29% true, and with a bit more Def to compensate for a likely higher level will also be 4HKOd.

lv 20/1 Lowen: lol @ being 7HKOd with even more avoid.

lv 20/2 Florina (again, for easy rounding on averages): Surely this fragile girl would be worse off than Guy, correct? Well, no. Give her a Killer Lance and she'll have 49 avoid with her 34/9 HP/Def. After the same 5 attacks, she has ~14% chance of death given that she's 3HKOd. However, she also has the option of not taking a counter on player phase, essentially making 5 attacks for Guy more like 4 attacks for her, which is ~7& CoD. Yes, even a fragile unit like Florina puts Guy's durability on the spot.

You'll notice I left out supports, but that would likely help others more than Guy since Guy only gets a bit of avoid while others can often gain even more avoid and/or Def.

Guy can counter on the enemy phase unless the enemy is attacking him from afar. Guess what? The majority of enemies don’t. It’s supply and demand, really; you have plenty units who can wreck the scrubs on the enemy phase (with Guy often being one of them), but few who can wreck the non-scrubs on the player phase, and certainly not as well as Guy does it. Countering 2-range enemies is certainly advantageous, but that point loses a lot of its shine when you suddenly remember Guy still counters most of the time.

It's true that there are a lot of enemies that aren't 1-2 range, but the point still means a lot because there still happen to be a lot that are. I already mentioned CoD and its hordes of magic enemies that Guy will suck against. There's the entire right side of Crazed Beast that promoted Priscilla could be dropped at and freakin' solo while Guy would be useless. A chapter like Sands of Time also has lots of Archers/Snipers and the like. They build up.

By "non-scrubs" I mean things like Nomadic Troopers, Heroes, and promoted enemies in trouble that are a real threat. For instance, there is a 20/10 Hero in Four-Fanged Offense that I remember that has a silver sword. Guy will double this d00d and kill with a critical. Who else doubles it? Nobody. IIRC, it has like 16 Spd or some shit.

I see him with 17 Spd, actually. Guy must be 20/2 to double. The enemy has 49/15 HP/Def. Guy w/Killing Edge has 21 atk. 9HKO, two crits wouldn't kill. Hell, +5 atk from full atk supports would only get him to 5HKO range, meaning he'd still need two crits, but that's very unlikely to happen. It's only one enemy, but Guy can't even manage an advantage here!

Dang, this sure blows for Guy and the better that gets the best bonuses from him, Priscilla.

...What?

This would be a good point if one simple fact didn't exist; there aren't any enemies unit P can kill that Guy can't, so unit P and his good offense can kill the first E and then Guy can mutilate the second one, and chances are Guy is beating unit P in offense anyways.

Uh, yeah, lol. People like Raven exist, buddy. Guy was having problems against a Hero, how do you think he'll do compared to others against Generals? Your point is moot. You sadly overestimate Guy's offense.

Priscilla with her horrible HP and Def is rushing to the front lines? Risky player here! Priscilla has Guy's 5-8/0 concrete durability at 20/1 and slightly more Evd. Priscilla isn't rushing ahead at all unless you like restarting chapters.

Whoever said she's jumping into enemies alone? This can allow her to catch up to others, or cross the map to another side, or kill one lone enemy that's off to the side, stuff like that. More narrow-mindedness?

According to this site, it's 310 turns.

I counted the turn req's with Jerme's PFoD and got 324. Meh. Point doesn't really change.

He'll get a critical over half the time. If he attacks something, he's going to get one critical, and that enemy is going to die. 60% of the time, he kills it before eating a counter or saves a weapon use. He doesn't need the supports.

You act like he'll always crit. He won't. 60% crit means he has an 84% chance to crit in two hits. And that enemy will not always die because his Str sucks. Let's put him at 20/7 for PFoD. W/Killing Edge, 23 atk. Generals have 20+ Def, so good luck there. Wyvern Lord with 49 HP/16 Def is a 7HKO. Two crits won't kill. Hell, he isn't even a boss killer because he does 2 damage a hit to Sonia's 46 HP, and she's a damn Sage. gg Guy. And then if he's screwed just slightly in Str, he won't even get the Hero in 4 hits. Fail.

You could give him a stronger weapon, but then say goodbye to 30 crit.

Priscilla is the one that needs the supports because of her loltastic durability. She needs any bit of Evd and Def she can get. Her offense actually needs that bit of Atk and Crit. A 20/1 Priscilla has 20 Atk with no supports. She one-rounds Knights barely, if they have like lower 30's HP and around 2-3 Res. A 20/15 Priscilla with A Raven/B Lucius with Thunder has 31 Atk and has 33 with Elfire. She does 42 damage to a VoD General that has 43 HP. Oh snap, a Guy support over a Raven one would have let her get the kill! Let's see what else... She gets a Falco Knight literally exactly with Elfire. If her Mag is one point below average? If she fails to double when she's losing 4 Spd from Elfire? She doesn't get it. A Guy support lets her do it, if only a single one over going for the A with Raven. Offensively against magic users, Guy destroys her. Instead of double 11's to the Valks, Guy just slaughters them. Priscilla counters promoted magic users, but doesn't kill them. She gets the scrubby Shamans, but who doesn't? Guy doesn't need to be countering these because he can be off raping some other part of the map, like eating up those Falco Knights as they show up or killing those pesky Valks that Priscilla tickles.

Priscilla's combat is not what makes her so great, so the fact that she's somewhat sub-par is fine. It's her staff utility and everything about it. If anything, you should be weakening enemies and having her kill for the extra experience whenever possible because of her class experience boost, and it's funny how you used stuff like Generals that Guy also sucks against. As for enemy magic users? She most definitely should tank them. She can return the favor, weakening them for scrubs like Guy who want to kill without a counter.

This point is the most minor thing you could ever bring up due to how situational it is. If you're in a position where you want to rescue, which will eat up 3 total unit turns at the very minimum, than you're bad. That is horrible for efficiency. The amount of times this is useful in the game for Priscilla to specifically do over someone else might be 1 or 2 at most.

Wtf is this? You obviously have no idea how useful this is, and it's amazing for efficiency. Hell, I don't actually know what else to say because I thought I already covered everything. How can transporting an immobile unit like Hector or Oswin be horrible for efficiency? These guys are tanks and you want them at your frontlines, something Priscilla is very good at helping with. Hector never starting at the front of the army doesn't help him.

This can also help other units catch up. If someone had to stay behind to kill enemies, Priscilla can pick them up and get them back to the team 2-3 turns faster than they would have from just walking on their own. Or you can use it to get someone out of the arena to make use of the arena more than once in a turn, which rocks.

Guy kills things. You need to kill to advance forward and finish chapters. Healing doesn't clear away enemies. Guy is good at killing when almost everyone else is bad at it and then he just gets exponentially better at it and he eventually beats everyone by a lot.

This is pretty lol and has already been proven wrong. He's good first, but everyone else only gets better.

Guy never falters in offense. If anything, he justs gets better and better, like, exponentially so. He kills the strong enemies that everyone else can't, like bosses and promoted enemies. Everyone takes out the garbage, but Guy kills the tough guys. Guy is amazing for Combat.

It's too bad you didn't check the numbers before making this claim.

Anyways, counting each rank evenly like this is pointless because they are nowhere near equal in difficulty or importance.

Yeah, Experience and Tactics are way more important than others, both of which Priscilla helps with more than Guy.

Erk and Serra are walking all over Priscilla in terms of level and stats and everything else. Lucius will either have a level lead or be at the same level as Priscilla but then gain EXP faster because he's a fighter. Canas is level 8 in Chapter 17x and Priscilla needs to heal 42 times with Mend to reach that level and the maximum turns allowed before Canas joins (giving her 3 turns for Chapter 14) give her only ~35 turns to heal if she heals every single turn, so she won't even have a level lead on Canas. You get a Guiding Ring in Chapter 18. Then another in Chapter 20, IIRC. Priscilla won't even be at level 10 on the Pirate Ship, so there goes her using the first one. Erk/Lucius/Serra will be 20/0 at the Dragons Gate and Canas will have a level lead, so does she even get the second one? She is probably promoting with an Earth Seal later on or something, like in Chapter 24. That is horrible.

You should not be promoting every magic user, just like you shouldn't be promoting every Hero Crest user. This is a very minor point in light of what Priscilla brings overall.

Guy has a big level lead on Raven and catches up to Dorcas (who kinda sucks) so he doesn't have any promotion issues.

Raven should catch up easily. He will pretty much be Guy's equivalent when he shows and only gets better due to better growths in like everything except Spd, but he doubles most everything anyway.

In the end, Priscilla can promote a bit later and still pull a win on Guy. If anything it'll just mean she can give even more experience because of her class bonus, a rank advantage Guy has no answer to at all.

[Inui]

Ah, but see, you left out Luck. If this Eliwood has gained 2 levels, he has a 3 Luck advantage, which reduces that 10 to 7. In other words, If Eliwood sees 45%, Guy actually sees 38%, or 29% true, which is only a 10% advantage. Lowen actually has 1 less Luck, but better concrete durability and 1-2 range to avoid counters.

Yeah, those numbers aren't making any difference to what I said.

Lowen has more concrete durability? Guy will have 26 HP/6 Def vs 25 HP/8 Def. Barely any difference at all.

Lowen's ranged combat is tossing a Javelin at axe d00ds. Uh... And how'd he get it, anyways? Oswin traded it to him? He got the one you can afford to buy in the previous chapter?

Guy beats Eliwood, I'll give you that. But the others? Not as likely. Everyone else has 1-2 range in the form of Hand Axe and/or Javelin to avoid player phase counters, and even Hector and Eliwood can get a quick C for +5 avoid and +1 Def, which actually makes Eliwood's durability dangerously close to Guy's.

This is 13x. You don't really have those yet and your offense with those weapons is quite atrocious at this point. Javelins on axe d00ds isn't good at all and then you have to keep it equipped on the enemy phase unless you do the trading trick which may eat some other unit's turn.

And what's the point? The only objectives in this map are to visit the village (Marcus) and survive. Sure, Guy might be able to venture out, but it won't help me any.

Or Marcus can go kill Puzon since nobody else can and get ~70 EXP instead if going down the drain and Guy can just go get the 5,000 Gold instead.

Plus, I don't see how you can call this one of the hardest maps in the game. I usually find it to be pretty easy. Guy and Matthew dodge tank Axes at the bottom right, Dorcas, Bartre, and Oswin can pretty easily the handle the left end with the Snag, and everyone else (Eliwood, Hector, Marcus, Rebecca, and Lowen) can handle the north with Serra jumping wherever she needs to be. Plus there are plenty of Forests for everyone to take advantage of.

That is because this game is easy. Completing the chapter while killing Puzon for a big EXP gain and getting to the village is the hard part. Guy makes it possible.

Waitwaitwait, no. Base level Guy w/Killing Edge (Because I doubt he'll have gained a level yet) has 27 avoid on his own with 25/6 HP/Def. Iron Axe Brigands have ~16 atk (3HKO) and ~83 Hit, so 41 displayed on Guy, or ~34 true. That's almost a 12% chance of death in 4 attacks, and if he doesn't die he'll likely have to heal himself instead of using his player phase to attacked 2 range enemies like Nomads and Hand Axe Brigands. I wouldn't call that "easy."

So he didn't even score like 3 kills when he joined even though doing so is easy and a good idea for your Experience rank since he gains a lot? What?

In 13x, Guy has nearly constantly access to forests no matter where he gos, unless it's to Puzon, so he has no chance of dying in one turn.

lolWut? No fucking way. You get him, at best, halfway through, and even if he gets something to fight it will have a Lance, so he won't even be a good fighter in 13. 2 or 3 kills in 13 would be generous. Also, don't forget to account for decreased experience gain after leveling.

Considering the huge smackdown he lays in 13x and the few kills he can get in 13 and 14, I believe my assessment of his level is accurate. He gains ~30 EXP per kill and that only drops a few points when he gains levels. I guess dropping him one level is a fair compromise, and it doesn't really change much.

Tactics is only hard because Experience is nuts. You've proven nothing by showing me that link. For example, 12 turns for Ch 13? That's easy. 10 is probably a good turn count for that. And there's stuff like 25 for Genesis when you can probably do it in like 15 if you pace yourself and another 25 for PFoD Jerme (which is likely since Priscilla, Erk, Serra, and Lucius are collectively > Bartre, Raven, Guy, and Dorcas. Bartre and Dorcas won't likely be played for long, but I wouldn't be surprised to see all four of those magic users in, maybe leaving Lucius out) is just laughable.

No, Experience rank is the real bitch. I posted this on FEF so I'll repost it here:

If you assume 19xx and 32x are skipped, then you need ~1513 Experience on average per map for 5 stars, which is a bit more than 15 full levels. Looking at Tactics under the same assumptions, every map has to be ~11.5 turns on average for 5 stars. That's ~131.6 experience every turn.

Yes, that's right. ~131.6 experience per turn. You need all the experience you can get, and Priscilla drawing it from her own experience pool and taking it from either no one or just Serra as opposed to Guy taking it from every fighter is a massive boon.

INCOMING PARAGRAPHS ABOUT EARLYGAME TURN SHAVING WITH AWESOME UNITS LIKE MARCUS AND GUY LETS YOU GO TO 32X AND WHY GOING TO 32X IS WORTH IT:

Not counting 19xx, you have to finish each chapter in 10.57 turns to S rank Tactics. We're blitzing. We're blitzing like mad so huge chapters like Battle Before Dawn, Night of Farewells, Cog of Destiny, and Victory or Death don't fuck us over by all taking 15+ turns each. We're blitzing like mad so we can jump into 32x for 10 turns to gain lots of EXP. Earlygame powerhouses like Guy that stay good and clear out enemies super well make this possible!

Okay, so we're in 32x, and you can have two Assassins by now. They have WTA on those Berserkers and completely and totally fucking destroy them with Killing Edges. Their class has a huge bonus to EXP. They are netting close to 100 EXP per kill and activations of Silencer are increasing their EXP gains, and they get 1/4 of the time and then eventually 1/3 when they S rank Swords and get some more Skl. Let's say they get 20 Berserkers. They are shitty, numerous, can't hit them, and Killing Edges = instant death for them. Silencer gives EXP bonuses. Let's average them out at 90 EXP per kill since that makes sense. They start off with 100, but it drops a bit, but Silencer kicks in for boosts. That is 1,800 EXP just for that. And guess what? More than 20 Berserkers exist in that chapter. It's fucking full of them. Then you get more EXP for killing Kishuna. Matthew and Legault raping things gives you almost as much EXP as the requirements for Chapters 12, 13, and 13x combined. A 14 Skl Berserker with a Silver Axe (the most accurate weapon they can have) has ~16 Hit on a 20/1 Legault and definitely does not kill him in one hit or even close to it. Legault gets one kill, and he gets +1.8 Evd on average. After a few kills, he's untouchable. Matthew is in the same boat as Legault. Yeah, it's pretty easy, makes perfect sense, and gives you the largest EXP gains in the game. After killing the huge amount of Berserkers, whatever other enemies are there (some Heroes maybe?), and then Kishuna, you're walking out of that chapter with a free 4,000-5,000 EXP added to your Experience rank.

It's all about total levels gained. Priscilla has a seperate pool of EXP to gain from, but both gain about the same throughout the game. Guy builds up a huge level which Priscilla has to overtake. Priscilla's only EXP benefit is not taking CEXP all the time, but she's still taking staff EXP from Serra/promoted magic users if she's healing when they can too. She gets minor points for that. If Guy is 20/11 at VoD and Priscilla is 20/10, who gained more EXP for the Experience rank? Lol, it's Guy! Since Priscilla can't even promote until around Chapter 24 and Guy's likely to get your first Hero Crest due to his level lead over Raven and cap-ramming Spd, he'll have a giant lead on her.

As I just pointed, this is much bigger than that narrow-minded deduction might lead one to believe. Yeah, Guy will likely get a similar amount throughout the game (most likely less. Priscilla/Serra are the ones most likely to reach 20/20 while Guy will probably only hit 20/10-20/15), but to get it, he takes it from every other fighter on the field. If Guy kills an enemy for 30 experience, that means Eliwood couldn't kill the enemy for the same 30, so Guy isn't really helping the Experience rank at all. Or, if he gains 30 as opposed to someone like Oswin who would've gained maybe 20, he's still only gained 10 more, and there are plenty of other fighters who can get just as much or even more experience than him (Matthew, for example, gains more until he level caps). However, Priscilla can come in and heal someone and not steal experience from anyone but Serra, who might not have even been in range, or may have already healed that turn, essentially making Priscilla's gains free while none of Guy's are.

Priscilla reaching 20/20? Well, she's got her class bonus, but as I stated, she won't even have a level lead on Canas's 8/0 self in 17x if she heals every single available turn with Mend. That's terrible. She won't be promoting first at all because she can't. Serra will be nearing 20/0, as will Erk, when the first Guiding Ring shows up, due to LHM leveling. Priscilla won't even be level 10, lol. Guy? He'll be promoting with that first Hero Crest for sure if we're using him. He'll have a big level lead on Raven.

This only matters if some other unit makes better use of the EXP or would gain more. In the case of guy, neither is really the case. Guy has rather decent growths and maintains good EXP gains for pretty much the whole game. In terms of the Experience rank, letting X unit get the 30 EXP instead of him means nothing. It's still 30 EXP for that gay rank.

And I'll go further. Take the Torch staff you get. That'll grant 150 free experience overall, and since Serra is the only other healer around at the time, Priscilla can practically be credited for half of it, 75. Then there's Unlock for 10 uses of 17 experience, Restore for 10 uses/20 exp, Hammerne for 3 and 40, buyable Barriers for 15 and 17 (h4x), Silence, Sleep, Rescue, Warp... And that's just the free experience. That doesn't even go into what those staves can do for you. Barriers make the multitudes of enemies in a place like CoD much more bearable. Rescue and Warp can either save a unit in need or help to finish a map faster. And then use Hammerne on the Warp staff so that you can get a total of 714 essentially free experience out of one staff.

By the time the not-Torch stuff appears, Erk, Lucius, and Canas will be rocking C+ staff levels and be able to use them too, especially Lucius. Priscilla has no monopoly on these staves at all. Priscilla's advantage in the Experience rank is pulling from a smaller pool, but it doesn't mean much since Guy's EXP gains are nice and he makes good use of said EXP. It's like you're trying to say "it's bad that Guy rapes everything because my other unit could have gotten that kill too" which would just make killing things somehow a negative for the Experience rank, lol.

It was not about who's better overall, so Lyn's story is completely pointless, as well as promotion. The point is that both will be used but until Serra actually does promote, Priscilla is better at reaching your allies to heal them. Priscilla's lower level will also allow her to gain more overall experience in the long run.

Unfortunately for Priscilla, she won't be able to promote until Chapter 24. Why? Serra and Erk are awesome and have gigantic level leads on her. Priscilla healing with Mend every turn possible = less than level 8 when Canas shows up. Even Canas can have a lead. What does this mean? It means Erk gets access to staves and Serra gets access to combat, meaning they will maintain a huge level lead on her forever and ever. Her promotional situation is quite terrible.

Better, but not amazing. Archers are like the easiest thing for anyone to take on at this point.

Yeah, so why are other units struggling to one-round them?

Well then, I'm glad I have units like Oswin and Hector and Marcus who are less prone to tactical errors due to having better durability. And a Forest is not always possible. It rains a lot, and sometimes you need to move him out if you want him to attack something.

That forest is where Guy can sit and just wait. He doesn't need to move out until the loldiers and a few Cavs are dead, and by that time the enemies are raped by rain and can never swarm him.

This is another narrow-minded view of things. On the surface, you're right, Priscilla does nothing on the enemy phase. However, her contributions contribute much to every enemy phase. Let's say someone, I'll use Eliwood, got hit on the enemy and phase and the enemy is still there. Without a heal, he needs to take a Vulnerary, but now the enemy is still there and will attack either him or someone else. If Priscilla heals him, he can kill the enemy, ultimately increasing your enemy phase efficiency. And with this type of strategy in mind, you should never have to go out of your way to shield Priscilla, especially since it was apparently a tactical error to have Guy attacked by too many enemies.

So, she contributes to the enemy phase in the form of making some other unit better on it if they need the healing, and that use diminishes once Erk, . Priscilla herself still has no use on the enemy phase and is limited in her moblity due to that.

Experience part already covered. As for his enemy phase, yeah, he can be 100% useless. Look at a map like CoD or Genesis that's filled with 1-2 range enemies. He won't be countering. Useless.

Oh my. Two chapters. Thankfully, Guy can murder the Heroes, that crazy level 20 Sniper, and the super fast Valks on his turn. What other units one-round those guys? Certainly not Priscilla, lol.

Priscilla spends half the game unable to fight. That's a problem.

I agree, which is Guy's main problem. Everyone knows this game is Lance heavy. Let's assume Guy can reach 20/1 by FFO. He has 52-53 avoid. Steel Lance Wyverns have ~83 hit, which is ~45 displayed on Guy. They should be 4HKOing him, so after 5 attacks he already has ~10% chance of death. What's it like compared to others?

lv 20/1 Raven: With an Axe, he wins in every defensive parameter possible. lol.

lv 5 Marcus: This is probably a low leve, but the number rounded nicely. Anyway, he sees ~38 displayed, 29% true, and with a bit more Def to compensate for a likely higher level will also be 4HKOd.

lv 20/1 Lowen: lol @ being 7HKOd with even more avoid.

lv 20/2 Florina (again, for easy rounding on averages): Surely this fragile girl would be worse off than Guy, correct? Well, no. Give her a Killer Lance and she'll have 49 avoid with her 34/9 HP/Def. After the same 5 attacks, she has ~14% chance of death given that she's 3HKOd. However, she also has the option of not taking a counter on player phase, essentially making 5 attacks for Guy more like 4 attacks for her, which is ~7& CoD. Yes, even a fragile unit like Florina puts Guy's durability on the spot.

You'll notice I left out supports, but that would likely help others more than Guy since Guy only gets a bit of avoid while others can often gain even more avoid and/or Def.

At this point in the game, you have Silver Card h4x and access to Lancereavers, so I see no reason why Guy shouldn't have one on him at all times if he needs the Evd against lance users.

The other flaw is that you have Guy at 20/1 at Four Fanged Offense. That's when Priscilla will be 20/1. Guy? Hardly. He's got a big level lead on Raven and will promote first due to it.

Hey, let's compare to Priscilla, since that's what this debate is supposed to be about.

Four Fanged Offense:

20/5 Guy: 45.75 HP, 60.05 Evd, 11.15 Def, 7.25 Res

20/1 Priscilla: 26.65 HP, 47.65 Evd, 7.5 Def, 17.5 Res

This is a huge massacre. Even with WTDA, Guy has about the same Evd as her, except he rapes her in HP very badly and has a Def lead. Even if they are the same level (impossible, and I think my level for Guy at Four Fanged Offense could be a little low), Guy thrashes her mercilessly in HP, wins Evd, and has more Def. I don't really need to show math here. It's plainly obvious that Priscilla dies way sooner than Guy, except maybe against magic users, but Guy has huge HP and Evd against those anyways. Also, Guy is totally invincible against axes while she isn't and he's totally invincible against lances with a Lancereaver while she doesn't have such an option. Monks/Bishops? Lol. They're not even a threat to low-Res units, so havin WTA on them is pointless, and they have huge Res making them hard to impossible for her to kill.

So, in the context of our debate, Guy absolutely slaughters Priscilla in durability, and that's what matters.

It's true that there are a lot of enemies that aren't 1-2 range, but the point still means a lot because there still happen to be a lot that are. I already mentioned CoD and its hordes of magic enemies that Guy will suck against. There's the entire right side of Crazed Beast that promoted Priscilla could be dropped at and freakin' solo while Guy would be useless. A chapter like Sands of Time also has lots of Archers/Snipers and the like. They build up.

Guy blows on CoD beyond being able to get rid of the Heroes, that gay 20/20 Sniper, and the ultra fast Valks on the player phase, but Priscilla's offense isn't special there. She can't double Valks, she can't one-round much, and the Shamans and Druids with Luna wreck her badly. Guy has h4x Evd and passable Res, so he's durable when he's getting attacked anyways.

But, that's fine. Priscilla can win a chapter or two. Guy wins the rest.

lol @ Crazed Beast stuff. Guy doesn't needs to go there. He can go south and eat up the Pirates, and that's where a good tactician would send him. As for Priscilla against the Monks, it's not as good as you think. Let's make her 20/3 and generously round up her Mag to 16. We'll now have her face off against the worst Monk possible, 24 HP/10 Res. She does 12x2, exactly one-rounding it. Now, keep in mind that this is against the absolute worst Monk possible. Their HP ranges from 24 to 27 and their Res ranges from 10 to 12. This is also rounding up 15.6 Mag to 16, which isn't entirely likely. B Erk gives her +1 Atk, but should she only nabs the super shitty ones. 25 HP/11 Res or more = no one-rounding for her. Meanwhile, any unit on your team with a Javelin or Hand Axe sneezes on these things and kills them and has no chance of dying due to how bad they are.

I see him with 17 Spd, actually. Guy must be 20/2 to double. The enemy has 49/15 HP/Def. Guy w/Killing Edge has 21 atk. 9HKO, two crits wouldn't kill. Hell, +5 atk from full atk supports would only get him to 5HKO range, meaning he'd still need two crits, but that's very unlikely to happen. It's only one enemy, but Guy can't even manage an advantage here!

20/5 Guy with B Matthew/C Priscilla: 12x2 Dmg, 75 Crit, kills in two criticals

20/1 Priscilla with B Erk/C Guy: 14 Dmg, 22 Crit, can't kill

I don't think Guy will be whiffing two criticals. If you're unsure of getting both, you could always go for a Silver Sword at 45 Crit and bank on just one hitting. Either way, Guy can kill it in on turn, and other d00ds really can't. Even something like Brave Lance Oswin would fail.

This Hero nearly OHKOs Priscilla, lol. Guy can eat a hit and be fine and he has much more Evd.

Uh, yeah, lol. People like Raven exist, buddy. Guy was having problems against a Hero, how do you think he'll do compared to others against Generals? Your point is moot. You sadly overestimate Guy's offense.

Well, he's raping the Hero much better than anyone else is. Let's see if he can't kill a General.

VoD General: 43 HP, 21 Def, 12 Res

20/11 Guy with B Priscilla and an Armourslayer: 14x2 Dmg, 42 Crit, only needs one critical

20/9 Raven with A Lucius and a Hammer: 23x2, ORKOs

It looks like Raven barely wins. And this is against a very rare type of enemy and it's literally the only one Guy doesn't super rape. Everything else in VoD dies to him easily. Guy just needs one 42% critical to ORKO, and if his Str is 1 point above average, or he got an Energy Ring (who else wants it?), or he's two levels higher, he gets it in one.

It's funny to note that if Guy gets hit by this big d00d's Silver Lance, he still has more HP than Priscilla.

Whoever said she's jumping into enemies alone? This can allow her to catch up to others, or cross the map to another side, or kill one lone enemy that's off to the side, stuff like that. More narrow-mindedness?

"And then of course, the obvious stuff. Guy can only ever reach an enemy 7 spaces away from him, which even slow guys like Oswin can do. Priscilla, once promoted, can reach any enemy within 10 spaces. In two turns, this becomes 13 spaces for Guy and 18 for Priscilla. Priscilla's advantage only grows as the map continues."

If she's going for some enemy 7 spaces away, chances are that's on the front lines since it's so far up. Priscilla using up all of her move over and over like must mean she's doing something with it. Is she fighting enemies on the front lines? I doubt that with her lultastic concrete durabilie and Wind affinity. She's no Clarine. So, how much is this Mov stat of hers really mattering? Priscilla wants to move 8 spaces each turn to leave her 6 Mov supporters?

You act like he'll always crit. He won't. 60% crit means he has an 84% chance to crit in two hits. And that enemy will not always die because his Str sucks. Let's put him at 20/7 for PFoD. W/Killing Edge, 23 atk. Generals have 20+ Def, so good luck there. Wyvern Lord with 49 HP/16 Def is a 7HKO. Two crits won't kill. Hell, he isn't even a boss killer because he does 2 damage a hit to Sonia's 46 HP, and she's a damn Sage. gg Guy. And then if he's screwed just slightly in Str, he won't even get the Hero in 4 hits. Fail.

You could give him a stronger weapon, but then say goodbye to 30 crit.

I will gladly remove 30 Crit if it means Guy only needs one critical to kill at 40%+, which is the case if he goes with an Armourslayer. 60 Crit is his supportless Crit. Pale Flower of Darkness? Awesome, a chapter where Matthew exists, and he has a support with Priscilla. There's like +20-25 Crit right there, making that Armourslayer KO almost a sure thing.

Wyrmslayer exists. That's 14 Atk on Wyverns instead of 9. Guess what? Guy now kills it with a single critical doing like 54 Dmg and he has ~60 Crit with his supports. Raep. Guy has h4x weapons at his disposal that nobody else makes better use of because he's got h4x Crit nobody else has. Raven's mighty self can use the same weapon and fail to kill. 20/5 Raven has ~20 Str, which is the same as Guy's due to supports, but he doesn't have insane Crit. Winner is Guy.

He's not a boss killer because he sucks against Sonia and Limstella? Well, at least he damages them. Priscilla can't dent them. Also, fuck the Killing Edge when you do only do 2 damage. Just go for +4 Atk with a Silver Sword. Guy has such options. Priscilla? She's not denting Sage bosses. She's not even killing promoted magic users of any kind at all.

Priscilla's combat is not what makes her so great, so the fact that she's somewhat sub-par is fine. It's her staff utility and everything about it. If anything, you should be weakening enemies and having her kill for the extra experience whenever possible because of her class experience boost, and it's funny how you used stuff like Generals that Guy also sucks against. As for enemy magic users? She most definitely should tank them. She can return the favor, weakening them for scrubs like Guy who want to kill without a counter.

Okay, she's got healing. So do Serra and Lucius, and eventually Canas and Erk. Lucius actually beats her at it due to huge Mag wins. Priscilla healing isn't some unique thing. She doesn't have a monopoly on good staves at all or anything like that and she's not even the best healer. Her combat prowess is mediocre and her durability is downright bad. Those are two areas Guy destroys her in.

Guy doesn't suck at all against Generals, as shown.

I don't think Guy is worrying about taking counters from magic users when he's rocking 75 Crit and they have like 10 Hit on him.

Wtf is this? You obviously have no idea how useful this is, and it's amazing for efficiency. Hell, I don't actually know what else to say because I thought I already covered everything. How can transporting an immobile unit like Hector or Oswin be horrible for efficiency? These guys are tanks and you want them at your frontlines, something Priscilla is very good at helping with. Hector never starting at the front of the army doesn't help him.

This can also help other units catch up. If someone had to stay behind to kill enemies, Priscilla can pick them up and get them back to the team 2-3 turns faster than they would have from just walking on their own. Or you can use it to get someone out of the arena to make use of the arena more than once in a turn, which rocks.

Because it eats turns. That's why. Okay, Oswin got to move 3-4 extra spaces. He's now being held by Priscilla. Priscilla drops him somewhere near the enemies next turn. Shit, now Priscilla is near the enemies. Priscilla drops him a little away from the enemies so she can stay out of their range. Shit, Oswin can't reach the enemies. Uh... After Oswin gets dropped, it eats Priscilla's turn and Oswin's, meaning she's not doing any healing during this time.

Rescuing eats three turns at minimum. That's the problem with it.

You should not be promoting every magic user, just like you shouldn't be promoting every Hero Crest user. This is a very minor point in light of what Priscilla brings overall.

I beg to differ. Dorcas and Bartre are both mediocre, so Raven and Guy are pretty much your only Hero Crest units. Canas, the worst of all the magic users (supposedly), is still high tier. Healing and fighting together is awesome (this would be a good point for Priscilla if she was good at fighting, but she's not) and those units are all good and you can promote them all. Why wouldn't I? Lucius is one of Raven's only support options (lol @ Wind x Ice, which neither Priscilla nor Raven want ever) and he's good. Canas has Nosferatu h4x and very good concrete stats and Luna to rape magic users with. Erk needs no explanation. Serra is a no-brainer. Well then...

Erk and Serra are both considered really good, especially Serra. Both have huge level leads on Priscilla. Priscilla, being under level 10 on the Pirate Ship, does not have access to the first Guiding Ring. Erk or Serra use it. By the time the Dragons Gate hits, the one you didn't promote between Erk and Serra is 20/0 or very close to it while Priscilla is not, so promoting Erk or Serra once again makes significantly more sense for the Experience rank and so you don't have to bench someone.

Priscilla is looking at a mid-Chapter 24 promotion at best. Guy can promote much earlier than that.

Raven should catch up easily. He will pretty much be Guy's equivalent when he shows and only gets better due to better growths in like everything except Spd, but he doubles most everything anyway.

Guy's likely to have a 5+ level lead on Raven when Raven joins, and he has to go run to Lucius and not gain a level, so he's level 5 going into Chapter 17x while Guy is level 10+. That's a pretty huge level lead. Sure, it evens out eventually, but not any time soon.

In the end, Priscilla can promote a bit later and still pull a win on Guy. If anything it'll just mean she can give even more experience because of her class bonus, a rank advantage Guy has no answer to at all.

Hey guess what? If we're at VoD and Guy is 20/12 and Priscilla is 20/11, who gained more EXP for the Experience rank? Guy.

[Florete]

Yeah, those numbers aren't making any difference to what I said.

They show that Guy's durability lead isn't as big as you want it to be.

Lowen has more concrete durability? Guy will have 26 HP/6 Def vs 25 HP/8 Def. Barely any difference at all.

A lot of 13x Brigands have 16-17 atk, which 3HKOs Guy while 4HKOing Lowen. A good amount of Cavaliers and the Knights on 14 have 14-15 atk, which is the same thing, only Guy is at WTD while Lowen is WTN with Lances.

Lowen's ranged combat is tossing a Javelin at axe d00ds. Uh... And how'd he get it, anyways? Oswin traded it to him? He got the one you can afford to buy in the previous chapter?

At Axe dudes? There are other enemies, you know. A Javelin should be a good investment of your money since 1-2 range gives a lot more flexibility in positioning and attacking. Even if you opt out of buying one, Lowen is probably better with it than Oswin simply for the fact that Oswin has 3 less move and doesn't mind taking player phase counters against the enemies he'd actually use it against anyway.

This is 13x. You don't really have those yet and your offense with those weapons is quite atrocious at this point. Javelins on axe d00ds isn't good at all and then you have to keep it equipped on the enemy phase unless you do the trading trick which may eat some other unit's turn.

Who said we're only using them against Axe enemies? Most of the northern half of the map is not Axes. The Brigands are all in the south.

Or Marcus can go kill Puzon since nobody else can and get ~70 EXP instead if going down the drain and Guy can just go get the 5,000 Gold instead.

You could try it, but what was the point of bringing it up at all? It's not like Guy is any better at getting that gold than anyone else. I only mentioned Marcus because he can get it on the 2nd turn, which is good to be sure no bandits will have a chance at attacking it. Besides, Marcus will still be back to your team by turn 3, which is about the time stuff actually starts to happen, so it's not like you lose him for half the map or something.

That is because this game is easy. Completing the chapter while killing Puzon for a big EXP gain and getting to the village is the hard part. Guy makes it possible.

Good explanation as to how Guy makes it possible.

Wait a minute. There wasn't one. All you did was assign Guy the job of going to the village with no explanation as to why, as well as no reason why this is better than my own method.

So he didn't even score like 3 kills when he joined even though doing so is easy and a good idea for your Experience rank since he gains a lot? What?

Again, claiming with no explanation. I'll just copy-paste my previous point, which you replied to but not in this context:

lolWut? No fucking way. You get him, at best, halfway through, and even if he gets something to fight it will have a Lance, so he won't even be a good fighter in 13. 2 or 3 kills in 13 would be generous. Also, don't forget to account for decreased experience gain after leveling.

Okay, so we're in 32x, and you can have two Assassins by now.

I hope you aren't talking about Matthew and Legault? Because 100k in Funds down the drain is very bad. I generally don't like using other's arguments for my own stuff, but...

I have empirical evidence that, with promoted Eliwood, unpromoted Lyn, unpromoted Dart, unpromoted thieves, and unrecruited Farina, spending 40k G in the final chapter would decrease my funds rank by 1 star. There is very little leeway for spending 100k G worth of items.

They have WTA on those Berserkers and completely and totally fucking destroy them with Killing Edges.

But not all of them. Already at the beginning there is one with a Swordslayer, there's another at the end, and more spawn on occasion. Sure, you can use Lancereavers, but you still run into the problem of enemy phases: making sure you can trade out afterward and also making sure they don't get you on the enemy phase.

It's all about total levels gained. Priscilla has a seperate pool of EXP to gain from, but both gain about the same throughout the game. Guy builds up a huge level which Priscilla has to overtake. Priscilla's only EXP benefit is not taking CEXP all the time, but she's still taking staff EXP from Serra/promoted magic users if she's healing when they can too. She gets minor points for that. If Guy is 20/11 at VoD and Priscilla is 20/10, who gained more EXP for the Experience rank? Lol, it's Guy! Since Priscilla can't even promote until around Chapter 24 and Guy's likely to get your first Hero Crest due to his level lead over Raven and cap-ramming Spd, he'll have a giant lead on her.

This does not counter what I said about the Experience rank contributions at all. Yes, it is total levels (experience) gained, but that does not mean there is no difference here in how they gain it. See, Guy can be replaced with any other combat unit and you will get about the same amount of Experience throughout the game because other combat units get experience in the same way. Like, if I choose to use Dorcas instead of Guy, he might get a couple hundred experience less due to starting higher and possibly ending slightly lower, but overall it won't make a notable difference. However, when I take Priscilla out entirely, that's pretty much 1700 experience completely gone. Yes, promoted healers can heal in her place, but that's only half, and then when you account for earlier maps when you have no promoted healers and Serra can't heal either for whatever reason that's still ~1200 experience that can practically be attributed solely to unpromoted Priscilla. Yeah, that doesn't even take into account her promoted class bonus, which continues to boost her Experience contribution on Guy.

And don't try, "But unpromoted Serra!" I think we both know that Priscilla and Serra can reach level 20 before promotion, and since you love to boast Serra's huge level lead, she won't even be getting as much unpromoted.

Priscilla reaching 20/20? Well, she's got her class bonus, but as I stated, she won't even have a level lead on Canas's 8/0 self in 17x if she heals every single available turn with Mend. That's terrible. She won't be promoting first at all because she can't. Serra will be nearing 20/0, as will Erk, when the first Guiding Ring shows up, due to LHM leveling. Priscilla won't even be level 10, lol. Guy? He'll be promoting with that first Hero Crest for sure if we're using him. He'll have a big level lead on Raven.

How does any of this matter? You are putting way too much weight on earlier promotions, which does nothing to help Guy's case against Priscilla at all.

This only matters if some other unit makes better use of the EXP or would gain more. In the case of guy, neither is really the case. Guy has rather decent growths and maintains good EXP gains for pretty much the whole game. In terms of the Experience rank, letting X unit get the 30 EXP instead of him means nothing. It's still 30 EXP for that gay rank.

Uh...Yeah. Looks like I didn't have to counter your earlier point at all, seeing as you just did. Whether Guy or the other scrub gets the kill, it's still 30 experience.

By the time the not-Torch stuff appears, Erk, Lucius, and Canas will be rocking C+ staff levels and be able to use them too, especially Lucius.

Unlikely, at least for Erk and Canas. They have to get all the way up there from E and likely fight more than heal anyway, since as you mentioned, any of them that are used likely promote before Priscilla, meaning Priscilla is doing all the healing where possible until she promotes.

Yeah, so why are other units struggling to one-round them?

It doesn't even really matter. The beauty of fighting Archers is that anyone not named Rebecca can fight them safely. If there's any enemy you don't want to ORKO, it's Archers for the ability to milk as much experience as possible.

That forest is where Guy can sit and just wait. He doesn't need to move out until the loldiers and a few Cavs are dead, and by that time the enemies are raped by rain and can never swarm him.

What happens when you need him to move? You didn't address that at all. Sometimes staying in a Forest is not the best tactical decision.

So, she contributes to the enemy phase in the form of making some other unit better on it if they need the healing, and that use diminishes once Erk, . Priscilla herself still has no use on the enemy phase and is limited in her moblity due to that.

I'm guessing that should be "once Erk promotes?" Yes, it does diminish, but it does not extinguish. She still has a move lead on Erk and I don't see Guy doing any healing. There is no need to mention that she herself does nothing on the enemy phase; her indirect contribution is enough.

Oh my. Two chapters. Thankfully, Guy can murder the Heroes, that crazy level 20 Sniper, and the super fast Valks on his turn. What other units one-round those guys? Certainly not Priscilla, lol.

Don't think it matters when Guy isn't even doing it. If Guy is 20/7, he has 24 atk w/Killing Edge before supports, which is a 5HKO on the Heroes, aka he needs a double crit. He needs two levels of total support in order to 4HKO, which is most likely coming from Priscilla herself.

That level 20 Sniper? 49 HP, 12 Def. It's a similar scenario, only now he only needs one level of support to 4HKO. But lol @ Snipers in general. Anyone can double him (13 Spd, 11 w/his Longbow) and he can't counter.

The Valks? 20/7 Guy has 23 AS, which only doubles about half of them anyway. He's also being 3HKOd most of the time. For the record, although Priscilla can't do much damage, even if she's only 20/2 she is 4HKOd at worst, and that's by the strongest, and she counters them on enemy phase.

Priscilla spends half the game unable to fight. That's a problem.

Not when her healing is more useful than Guy's combat for the majority of the game.

At this point in the game, you have Silver Card h4x and access to Lancereavers, so I see no reason why Guy shouldn't have one on him at all times if he needs the Evd against lance users.

That doesn't make him win, although it does help...somewhat. Lancereavers are only 15 uses, and sometimes you need to get them traded out.

The other flaw is that you have Guy at 20/1 at Four Fanged Offense. That's when Priscilla will be 20/1. Guy? Hardly. He's got a big level lead on Raven and will promote first due to it.

How is this telling me he should promote before FFO? If Guy even promotes before Raven, that can just mean Raven promotes for Crazed Beast.

Besides, I don't really agree with Guy promoting Raven anyway despite how much it doesn't really matter since Raven gets a lot more out of it. He gets 1-2 range with Axes and 2 Spd, 3 AS total with anything weighing 9 or more (every Axe among some Swords). In comparison, Guy gets 15 crit and some other minor stuff. Even if Raven is only like 18 and Guy is 20, I'd prefer to promote Raven, and he caps his Spd at ~16 anyway, so he doesn't lose anything there.

Hey, let's compare to Priscilla, since that's what this debate is supposed to be about.

Four Fanged Offense:

20/5 Guy: 45.75 HP, 60.05 Evd, 11.15 Def, 7.25 Res

20/1 Priscilla: 26.65 HP, 47.65 Evd, 7.5 Def, 17.5 Res

This is a huge massacre. Even with WTDA, Guy has about the same Evd as her, except he rapes her in HP very badly and has a Def lead. Even if they are the same level (impossible, and I think my level for Guy at Four Fanged Offense could be a little low), Guy thrashes her mercilessly in HP, wins Evd, and has more Def. I don't really need to show math here. It's plainly obvious that Priscilla dies way sooner than Guy, except maybe against magic users, but Guy has huge HP and Evd against those anyways. Also, Guy is totally invincible against axes while she isn't and he's totally invincible against lances with a Lancereaver while she doesn't have such an option. Monks/Bishops? Lol. They're not even a threat to low-Res units, so havin WTA on them is pointless, and they have huge Res making them hard to impossible for her to kill.

That's cool and all, and I can concede that Guy wins durability overall, but don't forget that Priscilla never has to take a counter on player phase.

So, in the context of our debate, Guy absolutely slaughters Priscilla in durability, and that's what matters.

How the fuck is that what matters? If it were, 90% of this debate would not even exist.

lol @ Crazed Beast stuff. Guy doesn't needs to go there. He can go south and eat up the Pirates, and that's where a good tactician would send him.

What's funny is that Priscilla can also do this. I do it all the time myself, but since PEMN, I'll show numbers:

She can always be in a Forest, so her 20/4 avoid (I know you used 20/3, but the numbers at 20/4 round so much more nicely) will be ~72. The highest Hit I see on any Pirate is 81. Lol. The Warrior has 94, which is still a lousy 10% true. This is a great place to get Priscilla easy experience with her class boost and also to improve her weapon rank, much better than having Guy do it.

As for Priscilla against the Monks, it's not as good as you think. Let's make her 20/3 and generously round up her Mag to 16. We'll now have her face off against the worst Monk possible, 24 HP/10 Res. She does 12x2, exactly one-rounding it. Now, keep in mind that this is against the absolute worst Monk possible. Their HP ranges from 24 to 27 and their Res ranges from 10 to 12. This is also rounding up 15.6 Mag to 16, which isn't entirely likely. B Erk gives her +1 Atk, but should she only nabs the super shitty ones. 25 HP/11 Res or more = no one-rounding for her. Meanwhile, any unit on your team with a Javelin or Hand Axe sneezes on these things and kills them and has no chance of dying due to how bad they are.

2 rounding is not as bad as you make it sound. In fact, if anything, that coupled with her invincibility should be a good thing since it allows more experience for that rank with her class bonus as well. Monks may suck alone, but if you send someone with low Res over they can easily get swarmed.

In the end, Crazed Beast is quite a great map for Priscilla.

20/5 Guy with B Matthew/C Priscilla: 12x2 Dmg, 75 Crit, kills in two criticals

20/1 Priscilla with B Erk/C Guy: 14 Dmg, 22 Crit, can't kill

I don't think Guy will be whiffing two criticals. If you're unsure of getting both, you could always go for a Silver Sword at 45 Crit and bank on just one hitting. Either way, Guy can kill it in on turn, and other d00ds really can't. Even something like Brave Lance Oswin would fail.

This Hero nearly OHKOs Priscilla, lol. Guy can eat a hit and be fine and he has much more Evd.

Priscilla should be doing 15 damage. ~15 Mag, +2 with the supports, and Fire is 5 MT, giving her 22 atk to his 7 Res. It should be noted that 20/2 Raven w/Silver Sword + a hit from Priscilla can also kill this enemy. In the end, it's only one enemy anyway. Guy only has ~56% chance to crit twice, and it drops to ~42% if Matthew is not there for any given reason.

Banking on the 45% once is only very slightly better than banking on two crits at 75% (like 3%).

Well, he's raping the Hero much better than anyone else is.

You need to stop saying things like this without backing them up. I've already shown how Guy's performance against Heroes is not what you claim it to be and don't feel like doing it again.

It's funny to note that if Guy gets hit by this big d00d's Silver Lance, he still has more HP than Priscilla.

It's also funny to note that if Priscilla attacks him, he won't attack back.

If she's going for some enemy 7 spaces away, chances are that's on the front lines since it's so far up. Priscilla using up all of her move over and over like must mean she's doing something with it. Is she fighting enemies on the front lines? I doubt that with her lultastic concrete durabilie and Wind affinity. She's no Clarine. So, how much is this Mov stat of hers really mattering? Priscilla wants to move 8 spaces each turn to leave her 6 Mov supporters?

Haven't I already covered stuff like this, or was that in the tier thread?

Wait, it was here. Some of it at least:

Whoever said she's jumping into enemies alone? This can allow her to catch up to others, or cross the map to another side, or kill one lone enemy that's off to the side, stuff like that. More narrow-mindedness?

Move translates to flexibility. Flexibility is a good thing. Priscilla is more flexible than Guy with her +2 move and 1-2 range.

Wyrmslayer exists. That's 14 Atk on Wyverns instead of 9. Guess what? Guy now kills it with a single critical doing like 54 Dmg and he has ~60 Crit with his supports. Raep. Guy has h4x weapons at his disposal that nobody else makes better use of because he's got h4x Crit nobody else has. Raven's mighty self can use the same weapon and fail to kill. 20/5 Raven has ~20 Str, which is the same as Guy's due to supports, but he doesn't have insane Crit. Winner is Guy.

Wyrmslayer exists...for 20 uses. Lol @ that being significant. Plus, I have a hard time believing Raven can't kill a simple Wyvern Rider with an Axe, unless it was lords you were talking about.

He's not a boss killer because he sucks against Sonia and Limstella? Well, at least he damages them. Priscilla can't dent them. Also, fuck the Killing Edge when you do only do 2 damage. Just go for +4 Atk with a Silver Sword. Guy has such options. Priscilla? She's not denting Sage bosses. She's not even killing promoted magic users of any kind at all.

One enemy per map is not very significant anyway.

Because it eats turns. That's why. Okay, Oswin got to move 3-4 extra spaces. He's now being held by Priscilla. Priscilla drops him somewhere near the enemies next turn. Shit, now Priscilla is near the enemies. Priscilla drops him a little away from the enemies so she can stay out of their range. Shit, Oswin can't reach the enemies. Uh... After Oswin gets dropped, it eats Priscilla's turn and Oswin's, meaning she's not doing any healing during this time.

And here I thought you were good at this game, seeing as you keep calling it easy.

Is Priscilla really your only mounted unit? Do you not know how to make Rescue chains? It should be terribly simple to see that I was referring to Rescue chains, which means you Rescue and Drop on the same turn. Eats turns? Bullshit. This is to make the maps go faster by getting strong units farther. Ninils also helps this a lot. This is something Guy has no answer to.

I beg to differ. Dorcas and Bartre are both mediocre, so Raven and Guy are pretty much your only Hero Crest units.

Um...How is that "begging to differ" with me? I said you shouldn't be promoting all your Hero Crest users, which you appear to agree with.

Canas, the worst of all the magic users (supposedly), is still high tier.

On what list? The current list has him barely above Lower Mid, much less in High.

Healing and fighting together is awesome (this would be a good point for Priscilla if she was good at fighting, but she's not) and those units are all good and you can promote them all. Why wouldn't I?

The only reason you would is to sandbag someone, which is what you are doing. Similar to how Priscilla may take a Ring from them, they also take one from her. There is no reason to use all four because you don't need 6 goddamn healers (Serra, Priscilla, Erk, Lucius, Canas, Pent) and gaining the ability to fight is better than gaining the ability to heal at this point.

Lucius is one of Raven's only support options (lol @ Wind x Ice, which neither Priscilla nor Raven want ever) and he's good.

So? Raven is good without it. He doesn't really need it. WindxIce sucks, yeah, but +1 atk, +1 Def, +5 avoid, and +5 crit at B is still useful despite not amazing. It's not as if he has anyone else to B with.

Canas has Nosferatu h4x and very good concrete stats and Luna to rape magic users with. Erk needs no explanation. Serra is a no-brainer. Well then...

If you can't explain how this means all will be used, you should just concede that they won't. This is a very poor counter-argument that has little to no substance.

Priscilla is looking at a mid-Chapter 24 promotion at best. Guy can promote much earlier than that.

Now let's go back to the part where Guy promoting earlier means next to nothing.

Hey guess what? If we're at VoD and Guy is 20/12 and Priscilla is 20/11, who gained more EXP for the Experience rank? Guy.

Restating the exact same point from before? What did you expect me to say to this, anyway?

Here's something better: If we're at VoD and both Guy and Priscilla are 20/10, who helped the Experience rank more (Note: This is different than "Who gained more experience?")? Priscilla. By three miles. And then some.

[Inui]

They show that Guy's durability lead isn't as big as you want it to be.

Base Guy: 26 HP, 6 Def, 1 Res, 31 Evd

3 Eliwood: 19.6 HP, 5.6 Def, 0.7 Res, 23.5 Evd

4 Lowen: 24.8 HP, 7.8 Def, 0.6 Res, 19.2 Evd

3 Rebecca: 18.2 HP, 3.3 Def, 1.6 Res, 19.4 Evd

4 Bartre: 30.7 HP, 4.6 Def, 0.5 Res, 12.2 Evd

5 Hector: 22.6 HP, 10 Def, 1 Res, 17 Evd

8 Dorcas: 34 HP, 4.25 Def, 0.75 Res, 19 Evd

When you don't Guy compare to Oswin and Marcus, units that slaughter everyone in durability, it's pretty clear Guy wins or ties with regards to everyone else.

Who said we're only using them against Axe enemies? Most of the northern half of the map is not Axes. The Brigands are all in the south.

Most enemies in 13x are Brigands. There are a ton of axe users up north as well. There's some Nomads and an initial Merc, Archer, and Myrm...and then axe d00ds all night long.

You could try it, but what was the point of bringing it up at all? It's not like Guy is any better at getting that gold than anyone else. I only mentioned Marcus because he can get it on the 2nd turn, which is good to be sure no bandits will have a chance at attacking it. Besides, Marcus will still be back to your team by turn 3, which is about the time stuff actually starts to happen, so it's not like you lose him for half the map or something.

Okay, so Guy can kill Puzon for 100 EXP.

Good explanation as to how Guy makes it possible.

Wait a minute. There wasn't one. All you did was assign Guy the job of going to the village with no explanation as to why, as well as no reason why this is better than my own method.

Oswin struggles to hit stuff, there are forests, and he has 4 Mov. Everyone else has total and complete garbage offense compared to Guy besides Marcus right now. Guy can move around more safely than everyone but two units and he can actually get to both Puzon and the village, whichever one you choose. The other units struggle to do this.

Again, claiming with no explanation. I'll just copy-paste my previous point, which you replied to but not in this context:

lolWut? No fucking way. You get him, at best, halfway through, and even if he gets something to fight it will have a Lance, so he won't even be a good fighter in 13. 2 or 3 kills in 13 would be generous. Also, don't forget to account for decreased experience gain after leveling.

I'm unsure about "no fucking way" as well as being unsure that he can score 3-4 kills easily. I'd say it's far from impossible given his starting offense and weapon, even against lances. It's not exactly generous for him to get 3 kills. Pegs have crap durability and he doesn't need a kill to gain EXP on the other stuff. Loldiers are also terrible. You can recruit him with some Archers, loldiers, and Brigands still there.

But not all of them. Already at the beginning there is one with a Swordslayer, there's another at the end, and more spawn on occasion. Sure, you can use Lancereavers, but you still run into the problem of enemy phases: making sure you can trade out afterward and also making sure they don't get you on the enemy phase.

Hector and one other combat unit will also be there to fight such things.

This does not counter what I said about the Experience rank contributions at all. Yes, it is total levels (experience) gained, but that does not mean there is no difference here in how they gain it. See, Guy can be replaced with any other combat unit and you will get about the same amount of Experience throughout the game because other combat units get experience in the same way. Like, if I choose to use Dorcas instead of Guy, he might get a couple hundred experience less due to starting higher and possibly ending slightly lower, but overall it won't make a notable difference. However, when I take Priscilla out entirely, that's pretty much 1700 experience completely gone. Yes, promoted healers can heal in her place, but that's only half, and then when you account for earlier maps when you have no promoted healers and Serra can't heal either for whatever reason that's still ~1200 experience that can practically be attributed solely to unpromoted Priscilla. Yeah, that doesn't even take into account her promoted class bonus, which continues to boost her Experience contribution on Guy.

And don't try, "But unpromoted Serra!" I think we both know that Priscilla and Serra can reach level 20 before promotion, and since you love to boast Serra's huge level lead, she won't even be getting as much unpromoted.

I can't really argue that Guy contributes as much as Priscilla for the Experience rank. That's a given. Guy wrecks her in every other way, though. Durability, offense, clearing out big bad tough enemies for your team including bosses, etc.

Priscilla being superior for the Experience rank is conceded. Guy is one of the best combat units for it, if not THE best. He starts at 3/0 and is one of the few combat units that can hit 20/20 by the end of the game due to his absurd offense and being virtually unable to lose in the arena. 20/15 is reasonable for Guy, and that's more than what almost any other combat unit can see without assraping Experience along the way.

How does any of this matter? You are putting way too much weight on earlier promotions, which does nothing to help Guy's case against Priscilla at all.

Oh? Let's look at a realistic situation, like New Resolve I suppose.

20/1 Guy with B Matthew/C Priscilla: 18.1 Atk, a million Hit, 20 AS, 40 Crit --- 42.75 HP, 10.55 Def, 6.25 Res, 59.65 Evd

15/0 Priscilla with B Erk/C Guy/B Raven: 21.4 HP, 6.8 Def, 14 Res, 52.4 Evd

I'd say promoting Guy earlier isn't unfeasible at all and that I'm pretty generous to Priscilla overall. She even has full supports. Priscilla has 1 Mov and staves over Guy. Guy has...everything else. Existing enemy phase utility, first of all. Priscilla's enemy phase usefulness has been next to 0 so far. Guy has existing offense. It's the best offense, actually. Best AS and Crit by far coupled with decent Atk and never missing. Guy's durability is good while Priscilla's is likely the worst on the team.

Priscilla makes awesome contributions towards the Experience rank. She makes some contributions to Tactics via healing. Guy? He's making awesome contributions to Tactics and Combat and positive contributions towards Experience forever.

Any surpluses in Combat and Tactics he helps to create by one-rounding so much can be converted into hitting a boss or strong promoted enemy like a Hero or General many times with other units to let them gain a lot of EXP. Surpluses in Tactics by clearing stuff out quickly...such as nuking Oleg instantly in New Resolve, scoring a Crit on Eubans to end his chapter early, killing Zoldam on like turn 6-7, etc. can be turned into arena use turns or Chapter 32x turns. This is stuff either only Guy can do, or at least he's the best or nearly the best for it.

Unlikely, at least for Erk and Canas. They have to get all the way up there from E and likely fight more than heal anyway, since as you mentioned, any of them that are used likely promote before Priscilla, meaning Priscilla is doing all the healing where possible until she promotes.

Fair enough. So let's look at this.

Chapter 26, when Priscilla can promote at 20/0. Canas and Erk have D's in staves. Lucius has a B or is close to it. Pent and Serra have A's. Priscilla's healing utility goes down as the game progresses. She only competes with Serra initially. Then around the Dragons Gate, Erk is promoting, then Lucius and Canas next... As those guys promote and Pent joins, being a healer becomes less and less special, and increases in your team's durability detract from healing utility as well.

It doesn't even really matter. The beauty of fighting Archers is that anyone not named Rebecca can fight them safely. If there's any enemy you don't want to ORKO, it's Archers for the ability to milk as much experience as possible.

I'd rather milk bosses and promoted Heroes with surpluses in Combat...

What happens when you need him to move? You didn't address that at all. Sometimes staying in a Forest is not the best tactical decision.

When does that happen? It doesn't until all the lance things are gone. He has no reason to leave it since all the loldiers and Cavs rush at you.

Don't think it matters when Guy isn't even doing it. If Guy is 20/7, he has 24 atk w/Killing Edge before supports, which is a 5HKO on the Heroes, aka he needs a double crit. He needs two levels of total support in order to 4HKO, which is most likely coming from Priscilla herself.

I'm looking at the stronger one that seems to have more HP. 47 HP/14 Def. Cog of Destiny is what we're talking about, right? 20/7 for Guy? Maybe in those ranked runs I'm looking at that have huge surpluses in Experience. 20/7 Guy has 17 Str and then +9 from the Killing Edge. You forgot his HM boosts. He only needs one critical. He has 61 Crit before supports. That bitch is fucked with just one critical.

The Valks? 20/7 Guy has 23 AS, which only doubles about half of them anyway. He's also being 3HKOd most of the time. For the record, although Priscilla can't do much damage, even if she's only 20/2 she is 4HKOd at worst, and that's by the strongest, and she counters them on enemy phase.

I guess I'll load a save file again to check this out...

With 24 Spd, a unit can double all of the Valks besides a tiny amount (about 3, and one has no weapons). A 20/7 Guy has 24.2 base Spd. He can use an Iron Sword and bank on 31 x 2 Crit or a Killing Edge for one shot with 61 Crit. Nobody else has that level of offense against these enemies. I'd have him above that for CoD, though. How late is he promoting? I'd say Dragons Gate is the earliest and New Resolve is really reasonable. 20/9 for CoD? Guy's a good boss killer and good for killing strong promoted enemies.

24 Atk and 102 Hit seems to be the average for them. I'll give Guy a C with Priscilla.

20/9 Guy: 49 HP, 8 Res, 68 Evd. Faces 23.46 Hit and 16 damage.

If Guy gets 1 less HP or Res, he dies in three rounds. Priscilla with 1 less HP or Res also dies one round sooner. I guess we can work with that. 1.3% chance of death after three attack him. That's very minor, and that's with a point of screwage in HP/Res when blessing is more likely in HP and if three gang up on him. Not likely at all. If he needs 4 hits to die, his chance of death in 4 rounds is 0.3%.

Priscilla obviously owns him in durability against magic users...except dark. This is potentially Priscilla's best chapter in the entire game. Her offense is really bad, though. She may as well not even have weapons. They seem to have 21 Res on average, so she does 4 damage with Thunder, and loses 2 Evd and 1 AS in the process. She does 13x2 to 27 HP Monks. That kinda sucks, and some have 28 HP and 14 Res instead... The Bishop is like the Valks but with 1 less Res vs her and 3 more HP and she doubles...but not even a double critical kills. She can't do crap to the Heroes and needs to stay the hell away from them. 3 Luna Druids and 3 Luna Shamans = extremely dangerous to her. The Shamans have 68.40 Hit and do 13 damage to her 28 HP. The weaker Druid has 82.30 Hit and does 24 damage. The two beastly ones...kill her in a single hit and have more Hit than the other one. That is some bad news for her. Guy never experiences anything like that for the whole game.

That level 20 Sniper? 49 HP, 12 Def. It's a similar scenario, only now he only needs one level of support to 4HKO. But lol @ Snipers in general. Anyone can double him (13 Spd, 11 w/his Longbow) and he can't counter.

17 AS is needed with his Silver Bow. Guess who can't double him even with Fire at 20/4? Priscilla. Also, I am seeing 14 Spd on him on my current file, which makes doubling him even less likely. What's doubling 13-14 AS for sure right now? Guy, not Priscilla. Also this guy almost kills Priscilla in one hit and has similar Hit to the Luna Shamans.

Not when her healing is more useful than Guy's combat for the majority of the game.

13: Guy exists for the second half and is one of the better units.

13x: Guy is amazing.

14: Guy is good and Priscilla doesn't join until it's almost over.

15: Priscilla is extremely limited in where she can go due to Nomads, Javelins, and Hand Axes being plentiful. Guy assrapes axe users in the northwest without worrying.

16: Priscilla's healing helps you move more quickly and Guy is still great.

17: Priscilla is amazing indeed.

17x: Who is better than Guy for wiping out the ultra Pirates and speeding up this chapter? Nobody. You only have 7 unit slots. What if Serra is being fielded this chapter? Priscilla doesn't even see use. Why would anyone not field Guy?

18: Priscilla is limited by ranged and plentiful enemies again. Guy assrapes Zoldam for a quick finish.

19: Priscilla is limited by fog of war and ranged enemies. Guy can actually double Uhai for a quicker finish.

19x: Half the map makes magic worthless. Aion's Evd is really good and Kishuna is a motherfucker, and Guy is awesome for helping with killing both to end this bitch faster and get 19xx if you want to go.

20: The confined spaces and narrow passageways make Priscilla's Mov mean shit on top of her durability issues.

21: More fog to limit Priscilla since she has to watch out for anything and everything.

I could go on forever. Her mobility and healing are not unique or necessary. Guy is a better turn-shaver and is amazing for Combat.

That doesn't make him win, although it does help...somewhat. Lancereavers are only 15 uses, and sometimes you need to get them traded out.

It makes him invincible against lances, and when lances are very abundant, axes become very uncommon.

How is this telling me he should promote before FFO? If Guy even promotes before Raven, that can just mean Raven promotes for Crazed Beast.

Besides, I don't really agree with Guy promoting Raven anyway despite how much it doesn't really matter since Raven gets a lot more out of it. He gets 1-2 range with Axes and 2 Spd, 3 AS total with anything weighing 9 or more (every Axe among some Swords). In comparison, Guy gets 15 crit and some other minor stuff. Even if Raven is only like 18 and Guy is 20, I'd prefer to promote Raven, and he caps his Spd at ~16 anyway, so he doesn't lose anything there.[/quopte]

Considering Guy is ideal for killing the ultra Puzon, the ultra Pirates, Zoldam, Uhai, Aion, and other stuff...him being more than 20/1 is pretty damn reasonable.

Raven promoting earlier is also worse for Experience. Guy is cap-ramming Spd and Skl very early, which is gay, and him promoting stops that and gives him 15 Crit and some more Atk and durability. Raven gets similar stat boosts and axes. Promoting Guy first is better for Experience. lol @ promoting 18/0 Raven over 20/0 Guy. Having a benched unit and a 20/1 Raven is better than a 20/1 Guy and 18/0 Raven? No way.

That's cool and all, and I can concede that Guy wins durability overall, but don't forget that Priscilla never has to take a counter on player phase.

And Guy takes counters only about half the time due to his Crit. Priscilla can't do shit on the enemy phase directly. She has to be shielded since like...2 Mercs can kill her and they have good Hit. Guy doesn't need shielding.

How the fuck is that what matters? If it were, 90% of this debate would not even exist.

Durability isn't all that matters, but it matters a fuckton. I can't help but think my quote was taken out of context or had some supporting text before or after it, but I don't care about it enough to check.

In the end, Crazed Beast is quite a great map for Priscilla.

It seems to be a great map for anyone, lol. Not even worth discussing much, imo.

You need to stop saying things like this without backing them up. I've already shown how Guy's performance against Heroes is not what you claim it to be and don't feel like doing it again.

What you showed is that it's way better than Priscilla's and still the best possible offense against them since nobody else is doubling right now.

It's also funny to note that if Priscilla attacks him, he won't attack back.

Guy is attacked, gets hit, counters, and rapes the enemy. He still has more HP, Def, and Evd than Priscilla.

Priscilla is attacked, the enemy misses, and she counters for some damage.

I'd take the scenerio with Guy tbqh, especially since Priscilla can almost die in one hit probably.

Move translates to flexibility. Flexibility is a good thing. Priscilla is more flexible than Guy with her +2 move and 1-2 range.

No, it doesn't. At least not on its own. Offense and durability add to that. Priscilla's lack of enemy phase combat for most of the game means she can't be put in enemy attack range. Priscilla's lack of durability forever limits where she can go. Pick any given map and check out enemy attack ranges. Those are all the spaces she can't go. That's not flexible. She's limited.

Wyrmslayer exists...for 20 uses. Lol @ that being significant. Plus, I have a hard time believing Raven can't kill a simple Wyvern Rider with an Axe, unless it was lords you were talking about.

Lords indeed.

One enemy per map is not very significant anyway.

The boss is the most significant enemy on every map.

On what list? The current list has him barely above Lower Mid, much less in High.

Well, that's definitely wrong... I'm not making that argument here, though.

[Ether]

Well...this one seemed really close,IMO,so let's see if i can make some input:

Inui:

Pros:

-Showed that Guy's earlygame offense is really beneficial,and showed that earlygame,his durability compares to most of the team

-showed that despite his low Str,his great AS and crit allows his offense to remain pretty good throughout

Cons:

-Either didn't understand rescuing,or chose to ignore it almost completely

-Didn't really do anything to show that Guy's offense was more important than Priscilla's healing,except for show a 20/0 Serra,which isn't really relevant to whether or not Prissy can lift a heal staff

-Priscilla's promotion issues were really overblown,IMO

Red Fox:

Pros:

-Demonstrated that Priscilla is one of,if not the most beneficial unit for exp rank

-showed that Guy's offense/durability needed high price equipment,which is hurtful to funds

-showed the significance of Guy's lack of 1-2 range

Cons:

-Was unable to reciprocate Guy's promotion woes as planned

-tried and failed to show a significant difference between Guy's and the team's durability

I found it was close overall,however,I'm gonna give a slight edge to Red Fox on this one,and if i missed anything,feel free to point it out,as this vote may be subject to change upon further examination.

EDIT:I'm not sure whether i'd be considered qualified or not,but if not,you guys can ignore this.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Ether

[Fayt Zelpher]

I don't know if I'm qualified either, but let me take a look at it anyway.

Well, obviously, this debate has to go to Priscilla. After all, we've got a redhead female Troubadour --> Valkyrie, and that's pretty much as hot as it gets, so RFoF wins...

Just Kidding, of course...

In all honesty though, I really see Inui winning this debate. Why? Quite frankly, it came down to the 32x argument for me. The best counter that I saw there was that doing so would potentially cost the team as much as 100000 in funds to go there with the two assassins. BUT, this was AFTER repeated acknowledgement by BOTH debaters that the two ranks that one had to worry about were EXP and tactics. Therefore, sacrificing funds (an easier rank) to do better in the harder EXP rank would be preferred. Yes, RFofF showed that losing 40K in funds was enough to worry about losing 1* on funds, but that's not to say that it was any worse than to try to worry about nasty EXP rank requirements. Inui clearly demonstrated that using Guy in earlier chapters would allow you to shave off enough turns to go there without worrying about losing the 5* on the tactics rank. Guy is going to be able to get certain CEXP that is nearly exclusive to him (like bosses) as well as allowing you to go and get tons of EXP in 32x. Even if we assume that Priscilla has a full 1800EXP that she can draw on exclusively from her SEXP pool, that's still not enough to counter the fact that Inui showed that Guy could shave off enough turns such that, with the 32x chapter now in play, you could make up MORE EXP by using Guy instead. Not to mention that the funding may well not even be necessary when you consider that you can STILL get other units to kill in 32x (albeit for less EXP toward your rank) and not have to worry about damaging the funds rank. I didn't see Priscilla doing all that much toward the tactics rank, and Guy still helps the EXP indirectly through the methods that Inui described and I mentioned above.

Honestly, it was a very close debate and everything, but I don't think that RFoF did enough to counter that one point, while just about every other point was contested enough to not make a difference.

So, congrats to Inui for winning (in my opinion), and good job to RFoF for a very strong and valiant effort that came up just short. That was very interesting to read and really fun to think about... ;)

[Inui]

Red Fox didn't show actually show the significance of lack of 1~2 range, at least compared to my "best player phase offense" argument, and what I said about Priscilla's promotion and durability issues was really legit.

Yeah, I had to concede Experience mostly, and the rescue stuff was a good argument on her part.

We both sucked and didn't try. I know I sandbagged hard, lulz. You should go read some big epic debates at FEFF...if you have enough time to read a novel. >_>; CATS and Zorak = tons of tl;dr.

[Ether]

Well,she mentioned multiple times maps where 2 range is significant,and brought up how taking less counters helped with durability.Yes,you did counter it somewhat with healing after attacking,or better durability overall,but that either gives more credit to healers like Priscilla,lessens the lead severely,or inconveniences the rest of the army.So I gave her the point overall for that.

As for Priscilla's promotion,while it is a good point,it seems like you overplayed it a bit,which made it seem like you were dependant on Priscilla having a very late promotion,which i found weakened the point overall.

Priscilla's durability was a legit point,of course,but considering she doesn't take counters and can pull respectable avo,it doesn't seem to hinder her quite as much as you were trying to say it did.

Like i said,it was very close,but in the end,I found she had a bit of an edge.

BTW,are there any debates in particular you would recommend?I can say with confidence that I'm far from being one of the better debaters here...but i would like to see more debates and try to learn,of course.

[dondon151]

Cons:

-Either didn't understand rescuing,or chose to ignore it almost completely

While to experienced players it might seem obvious how to do a rescue chain, I think Red Fox could have gone the extra mile and cited video evidence to erase all doubt from her point completely. (Not to plug my own videos; it's really easy to just load a random map and set up a rescue chain.)

Rather than spending time to type stuff out, I shall paraphrase something written up by my good buddy HJ:

This kind of phrasing just overall seems weak. IMO it would be better if you just did a direct quote and then summarized the important points, or if you didn't bother quoting or paraphrasing at all. Especially since you cite a person that's not exactly well known among SF members, and since this citation has specifically to do with character vs. character instead of a general tiering ideology. It would appear better to the reader if you're able to stand up on your own two feet instead of apparently relying on someone else as a crutch.

It's true that there are a lot of enemies that aren't 1-2 range, but the point still means a lot because there still happen to be a lot that are. I already mentioned CoD and its hordes of magic enemies that Guy will suck against. There's the entire right side of Crazed Beast that promoted Priscilla could be dropped at and freakin' solo while Guy would be useless. A chapter like Sands of Time also has lots of Archers/Snipers and the like. They build up.

I think you could have done a lot more with this. You could have provided numbers of 2 range enemies against the total per map, and you could have presented arguments relating to map position. For some reason people think it's bad form to "sandbag" units because of no 2 range, but I don't understand where that mentality comes from, because it is a very significant disadvantage, especially in this game where there is a dearth of tough enemy units.

That doesn't even go into what those staves can do for you. Barriers make the multitudes of enemies in a place like CoD much more bearable. Rescue and Warp can either save a unit in need or help to finish a map faster. And then use Hammerne on the Warp staff so that you can get a total of 714 essentially free experience out of one staff.

I think you could have elaborated more here, with numbers as well. You could have shown how Barrier staves trivialize maps such as chapter 23x, 25, and 29. You didn't mention the Unlock staff, which I find particularly useful (as Priscilla has more move than your thieves). And you also could have contended that Hammerne helps funds by repairing valuable items (Wolf Beil, Rapier) and giving 6000 G each. I also didn't see Physic mentioned once in this debate.

Also, I'm not really impressed by Inui's lack of application of maths. It's great that you listed numbers for comparisons on chapter 24, or that you showed how Guy does against 1 certain enemy type. But you didn't have concrete defensive or offensive numbers in many cases, CoDs, or possible unit combinations that score KOs. For example:

"This is a huge massacre. Even with WTDA, Guy has about the same Evd as her, except he rapes her in HP very badly and has a Def lead. Even if they are the same level (impossible, and I think my level for Guy at Four Fanged Offense could be a little low), Guy thrashes her mercilessly in HP, wins Evd, and has more Def. I don't really need to show math here. It's plainly obvious that Priscilla dies way sooner than Guy, except maybe against magic users, but Guy has huge HP and Evd against those anyways. Also, Guy is totally invincible against axes while she isn't and he's totally invincible against lances with a Lancereaver while she doesn't have such an option. Monks/Bishops? Lol. They're not even a threat to low-Res units, so havin WTA on them is pointless, and they have huge Res making them hard to impossible for her to kill."

That doesn't tell me anything. You need to show math, to show exactly how much faster Priscilla dies than Guy, to show how far away Priscilla is from KOing magic users, and to show why Guy is facing magic units in the first place.

Overall, I didn't find Inui's numbers (or lack thereof) very convincing, and I felt that Red Fox could have done a better job covering all of the various forms of utility that Priscilla has. Maybe this was because Inui didn't address them very well and Red Fox spent more effort countering Inui, I don't know, but I find it surprising that the Physic staff was not mentioned once, and the other important staves (like Barrier, Unlock, Restore) were only mentioned in passing. And IMO 1-2 range and movement weren't hyped enough in Priscilla's favor.

Just my opinion. I'm not willing to submit a verdict because not only do I never do formal debates, but it's impossible for me to remain objective.

Edited March 7, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

But the actual situations where it mattered weren't shown. We both lacked real evidence in that regard.

Priscilla's late promotion is a very real point that even she can't deny. It's something I proved in the tier list topic. Priscilla promoting before Chapter 24 is hardly even possible, and her likely promotion point is actually Chapter 26 if you want her to be 20/0 first.

Priscilla's avoid isn't really good. It's on par with Marcus's, but she has less HP/Def and no WTA. I should have added chances of death in various situations for her where it's very hard to avoid being attacked, like ranged/flying enemies.

There's a bunch of awesome shit here if you're interested. Some of the stuff is really old, but it's still good. The farther down a debate is in a section, the newer it is.

Edit: Reply was to Ether btw.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

Hey, Inui, you know the debate's over, right?

I think you could have elaborated more here, with numbers as well. You could have shown how Barrier staves trivialize maps such as chapter 23x, 25, and 29. You didn't mention the Unlock staff, which I find particularly useful (as Priscilla has more move than your thieves). And you also could have contended that Hammerne helps funds by repairing valuable items (Wolf Beil, Rapier) and giving 6000 G each. I also didn't see Physic mentioned once in this debate.

I was originally going to go into the other staves, but in the end I completely forgot...

[Inui]

Yeah. So? I don't see what's wrong with discussion. >_>;

dondon...neither one of us was really serious or tried hard imo, lol. If it was a tournament debate, I woulda pulled all sorts of shit out, though.

[Florete]

Yeah. So? I don't see what's wrong with discussion. >_>;

That is not exactly what I meant.

[dondon151]

dondon...neither one of us was really serious or tried hard imo, lol. If it was a tournament debate, I woulda pulled all sorts of shit out, though.

No johns.

[Balcerzak]

Okay, so, I've been following this for a while, and my impression has always been that Red Fox of Fire has been handily beating Inui in every exchange. However, to try to be more objective about it, I went though, reread it, and summarized what I felt were the important points of each post, and occasionally some comments on the issue. It's mostly boring, unless you're a participant, so I'll spoiler tag it. It still may be under subjective influence from my personal opinion on the characters, but I'm not sure I can ever completely eliminate that.

Red Fox opens:

Guy lv 5, Pris lv 3 is entirely reasonable comparison.

Immediately frames the debate around XP rank contributions, smart move

Immediately brings up locked to swords. Bad vs Lances and 1 range only (tactical inflexibility).

Points out Priscilla doesn't need durability

Guy has average durability (due to both stats and lack of 2 range), beating Eliwood and Matthew only.

Attacks viability of Matthew support after level cap

Attacks feasibility of the Priscilla support in reasonable timeframe, notes that Prisc doesn't really need the bonuses.

Rescue chaining advantage

Inui post 1:

"Rather than spending time to type stuff out" smacks of laziness and unprofessional attitude

Ignores RFoF's mention that Bartre and Dorcas have 1-2 range giving them durability edge in his rebuttal

Makes a large issue of Guy's good performance in 13x

"he scored a mere 6 kills or so, which is probably close to what he can snag in Chapter 13 alone" - exaggeration central, picked up on by RFoF later

Attempts to shift the focus from XP rank to Tactics

Brings up Serra, but doesn't elaborate much, or press the issue at all

RFoF "57% chance of death in 3 hits" - Inui "If Guy is being attacked by that many enemies, you're making tactical errors." - This is a terrible counter that doesn't address anything. Guy can easily see 3 enemies in one round of combat, let alone two, and since Guy is not your only combat dude needing healing. RFoF should have said exactly this. She still addressed it, but it was weaker than it should have been IMO

Brings up lack of enemy phase as minus for Prisc

Claims Guy has better durability than Dorcas and Bartre, fails to provide numbers.

Claims the majority of enemies are locked to one range, provides no numbers.

Claims Guy's win against "non-scrubs" is more important than countering 2-range

Claims Guy has 60 crit after promotion, unsupported - RFoF should have addressed this assumes constant Killing Edges which strains funds, but failed to do so

Tries to claim Priscilla badly needs Guy's support by focusing on combat

Handwaves rescuing completely

Argues about promotion competition.

RFoF's counter:

Continues to press Guy's after durability, re-emphasising 1-2 range options and Eliwood's quick Hector support

Disputes Guy's "invincibilty" in 13x, with actual numbers.

re-affirms her claims for Guy's levels, countering Inui's gross inflation

re-affirms her claims about difficulty of the XP rank, and the fact that tactics is only hard because you have to meet this. Asserts Priscilla's absolute supremacy in XP contribution due to incredible staff pool of selection.

Points out Priscilla's vital in-direct enemy phase, by letting others have one. This is never, ever, addressed by Inui.

Points out Guy has many situations with complete lack of enemy phase as well, due to lack of 2 range.

Shows Florina(!) has similar survivability to Guy in FFO, with actual numbers. Completely ignored by Inui

Points out Guy isn't even good at killing "non-scrubs" using actual numbers.

Points out Raven is a better tactical nuker/combat god than Guy

Points out Inui's assumption of constant crit activation is retarded.

Admits Priscilla doesn't have to have splendid offense, it's just icing to her staff awesomeness, and class bonus to XP is even better

re-affirms usefulness of rescue-chaining, examples of Hector transport, and arena clearing. Inui never addresses these, particularly the arena clearing, which he's claiming shaving turns off of to use is a big win for Guy. Failure.

hand-waves the promotion issue slightly. Prisc doesn't really care when she promotes. Points out the Raven/Guy competition is actually close

Inui counter:

Claims you can't have Javelins/Hand Axes in 13x, and that even if you could it is meaningless

Handwaves RFoF 13x discussion

Whips out ridiculous 32x assertion

attemts to claim if Guy reaches higher final level than Prisc, he wins XP contribution

Points out Priscilla won't be using the first or second guiding rings. This is not news, nor even an issue... Priscilla could care less about late promotion

Attempt to claim Erk and Canas can get to C staves by Ch 22. I lol.

"Thankfully, Guy can murder the Heroes, that crazy level 20 Sniper, and the super fast Valks on his turn." provides no numbers

"The other flaw is that you have Guy at 20/1 at Four Fanged Offense. That's when Priscilla will be 20/1. Guy? Hardly. He's got a big level lead on Raven and will promote first due to it." - ridiculous level inflation, RFoF will address this

Claims there's an Energy Ring in this mode, I lol. RFoF fails to catch this, however.

attempts to downplay move advantage, saying Prisc would have to be rushing the frontlines. - RFoF will pick up on this later

brings up effective weapons as options for Guy

continues to downplay rescues

RFoF final:

Points out you can and should buy Javelins/Hand Axes in Ch13

Continues to attack Guy's relative durability

Points out massive holes in Inui's random 13x assertions

counters the ridiculous 32x assertion flawlessly

re-affirms the separate staff pool is a complete win in XP contribution

Points out Prisc doesn't care when she promotes

Points out Erk and Canas will never get to C rank staves

Provides the numbers that Inui doesn't, showing he can't destroy Heros and 20/20 Sniper like Inui claims he magically can

Points out Priscilla's inability to fight is not a disadvantage

Continues to attack Inui's level inflation at FFO

Crazed Beast is a great map for Priscilla

Continues to attack Inui's random numberless claims

Discusses that move translates to flexibility, not always rushing into the fray

Mentions limited usage on effective weapons

Once again facepalms at Inui's dismissal of, and reasserts the amazing utility of, rescue chains

Points out Prisc gaining the ability to fight is better than one of the other mages gaining the ability to stave at the point where it is an issue

Inui Closer:

Goes back to the Guy durability, finally with numbers, but continuing to ignore the 1-2 range part of the argument RFoF has been constantly asserting

Handwaves some 13x stuff

Finally concedes Guy loses XP rank contributions

Continues to inflate levels

Continues to stress Tactics

Brings up Combat, and how Guy's wins here allow milking of Boss's etc.

Attempts to lay a chapter by chapter outline of contributions

Claims Prisc durability cripples any move advantage

The opener and the closer are the posts that really frame a debate. They are the first thing you read, and the last thing you read, and they should be the most polished, and have the best execution. There is no doubt in my mind that Red Fox of Fire's opener was miles better than Inui's closer. Inui's closer spent a lot of time continuing the line-by-line, but doing it poorly, and while he did make an attempt at stepping back and giving a big-picture description of the situation, it was weak at best. He also brings in some completely new arguments here, which in my mind automatically disqualifies them as they have no chance of rebuttal. If you want to introduce a new line of arguement you absolutely must do it when the opponent can address it. You can (and should) bring up older arguements that were dropped by the opponent, and reassert them, but there was little to none of that going on in the closer.

Red Fox of Fire quickly and correctly framed the debate around the XP rank, and its supremacy as the most difficult rank was dropped by Inui during his second post, when he fails to reply to the rebuttal that the only reason that Tactics is hard is because you also need to satisfy the XP rank. The rest of the debate revolved around him trying to come up with ways to negate Priscilla's win, either via 32x, or by Guy gaining more total levels, or by sandbagging Priscilla's combat. Then he concedes Guy loses XP rank to Priscilla, and essentially concedes the entire match in his closer. He also completely failed to even prove that Guy wins on Tactics, as RFoF repeatedly discusses how rescuing (with an explicit example of Hector) gets things done quicker, and as she's on a pony with low con, Prissy is really really good at this. The only thing Inui definitely shows is that Guy is better at combat than Priscilla, but never why this is the be all or end all, and thus loses.

[Inui]

No johns.

lol, got me there I guess

What you and Balcerzak seem to be not getting with your big serious posts judging this is that I have a habit of sandbagging really hard outside of tournament debates since nothing is on the line and I use them for fun and mental exercise. I'm capable of putting in lots of effort when it comes to debates, and I try harder with units I like a lot.

Guy can eat my balls. He's lame and a tier worse than Priscilla. :P

[dondon151]

What did I say about no johns...

[Inui]

What did I say about no johns...

Psh, I can john about friendlies. Tournament sets and money matches is where you can't. :P

[-Cynthia-]

lol, got me there I guess

What you and Balcerzak seem to be not getting with your big serious posts judging this is that I have a habit of sandbagging really hard outside of tournament debates since nothing is on the line and I use them for fun and mental exercise. I'm capable of putting in lots of effort when it comes to debates, and I try harder with units I like a lot.

It's customary to judge debates, whether or not you were "trying". That's what they did, not sure why you feel the need to make excuses.

[Mekkah]

If Inui can not 'try' hard outside of officials because he doesn't like his unit as much or whatever, then I don't feel bad about voting Red Fox without elaborating either.

[Tangerine]

Jeez, dondon said almost everything I would have. A lot of this felt like filler, but I've been reading it since it started and I haven't really changed my opinion since then, although the recent actions taken by one of the participants may have removed all doubt <_<. There are a few things I could add, but they're minor at best and certainly not going to make any difference.

[Inui]

Even though it's a friendly match, I am actually going to put effort into my one with Colonel M, since I'm actually trying to prove a point.