FE5 Tier list, AA Ranked

[Dat Nick]

Ruleset:

Turncount is the only thing that matters

And if spamming the holy hell out of warp is the way to get a highscore, then be it. I'm drawing the line at RNG abusing C1 over and over again so Leaf procs move every single level up or whatever nonsense.

Negative utility DOES exist

You know how I'm going to use Xavier as an example because I've beaten that issue to death so I'm not going to bother. If you can't justify your recruitment cost, off you go to negative utility. The end. No "but char x can do this to be less of a dumbshit", no "but char x doesnt suck as bad as char y despite y being automatically recruited", nothing. I'm willing to lessen the impact of this on the split route characters/cyas-sety/olwen-eyrios because frankly I don't think it makes much of a difference. Unless people really think it does.

Nobody cares if you're awesome with brave weapons because everybody and their mother is and having to rely on them in a game where it's so difficult to acquire simple weapons is awful

Okay, maybe I'm overdoing this a little. But really. REALLY. If people think I'm overdoing this and nobody reasonable is going to cop that argument and most people do understand basic rules of favoritism, I'll remove it, but I seriously lost a lot of faith in humanity over that nonsense.

Pegasus Knight sample turns

Saphy

Saphy

Top

Othin

Lara

Sleuf

Sara

Fin

Fergus

Shiva

Havan

High

Nanna

Rifis

Pahn

Brighton

Dean

Homer

Salem

Linoan

Karin

Upper Mid

Dagda

Eyval

Leaf

Machua

Carrion

Sety

Galzus

Mareeta

Lower Mid

Amalda

Delmud

Glade

Selphina

Robert

Kein

Alva

Ralph

Low

Marty

Ronan

Tanya

Bottom

Dalshien

Eda

These characters are negative utility, live with it:

Fred

Shanam

Miranda

Cyas

Olwen

Asvel

Tina

Hicks

Eyrios

Xavier

Conomore

Trewd

Misha

I've taken care of the obvious can of worms here. I'd like to openly discuss things before applying any other changes.

-Now that I've offically stated this is a warpskip list, I'm seeing very little reason for there not to be Saphy tier.. Seems like Saphy tier has been agreed on in the AAA list. So no reason for it not to be here.

-imo Marty/Eyvel need to go up for earlygame utility if nothing else. Or Kein/Alba need to go down.

-What's keeping mediocrity like Karin in high? Flight?

-Mareeta up, imo. Yes, her def/build stats suck, she joins later on, and it's a problem. However, her crummy 3 str fixes itself pretty damned fast with 60% str growth and a rather fast EXP gain, and due to her personal weapon it's rather easy to get her to the point where she won't need to rely on it anymore. I think she very easily has a case against Machua at worst, because Machua doesn't really have a way to make that 4 base strength of hers magically all better. Sure, she has 1-2 range to counter but I hardly think it does much in her favor when she's limited to lol hand axes for most of the game.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Narga_Rocks]

Karin should go up, not down, if anything. I know you don't like pegs and all but really. Forget everything else she can do on her own: she gives Fergus +50 crit on his pursuit attacks. Maybe I'm alone in Karin up, but I'd like to see someone else ask for her to go down.

Oh, and Mareeta up I could agree with if I wasn't concerned about worthiness of being deployed at first. Don't get me wrong, I love her when she's raised (though waiting for shanam is probably inefficient and hence she won't have shooting star) and firing off crits and moonlights and whatever else and her PRF helps her level at first and then you can start giving her killers or something and she'll be fine. Even keep enough uses of her PRF for boss slaying later or something, I guess. I relate her to Fir, though. I could be alone there, too.

[Salad Utensil]

The lesser known FE SS runs where this guy skips unnecessary gaiden chapters in order to save turn count

http://www.youtube.com/user/rairaisword. I don't think he succeeded though since the video's end at chapter 19. He does interesting things like finishing chapter 4 so you don't waste turns going to 4X and without saving the civilians and killing Tanya so he doesn't go to 8X. Neither Olwen nor Eyrios was recruited since you have to go out of the way to recruit them. Dalshien was of course abandoned after chapter 5 due to his existance making it difficult to finish chapter 6 very quickly (I guess he can distract enemies and die though). Karin of course was instrumental in finishing a lot of his chapters quickly so I see no reason to drop her.

I think Eyval should move to lower mid, solely based on the number of turns that she shaves off for chapter 1,2,2x,3, and saving Nanna in chapter 5. Seriously how else will you be able to kill that chapter 2 boss?

Edited April 21, 2010 by Brighton

[dondon151]

This seems like a thinly veiled "recruit everyone but Xavier" tier list.

[grandjackal]

Seriously how else will you be able to kill that chapter 2 boss?

Othin's Wrath with the Brave Axe.

[Don Draper]

Thats not happening in an efficiency run. If this is actually a "lowest turns possible" efficiency run, then you should be 4 turning Chapter 2 and having Fin rescue Leaf, and having him and Eyvel rush for the throne.

[Dat Nick]

This seems like a thinly veiled "recruit everyone but Xavier" tier list.

What, Eyvel and Marty stopped being characters? Not my fault his recruitment cost sticks out more than anybody else except Eyvel's, except Eyvel was actually decent.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Don Draper]

Who is that in response to? If you're still talking about Chapter 2, then the 4 turn strategy is really the only way to complete the map. It involves Fin, Leaf and Eyvel (and one guinea pig if we're recruiting Ronan). Nobody else is needed.

EDIT: nvm, you quoted the wrong person

Edited April 21, 2010 by IOS

[dondon151]

What, Eyvel and Marty stopped being characters? Not my fault his recruitment cost sticks out more than anybody else except Eyvel's, except Eyvel was actually decent.

It takes no effort to re-recruit Marty and it takes 2 turns to re-recruit Eyvel with smart Warp usage. The only character who has an exorbitant, unavoidable (as in you can just say "warp" and trivialize it completely) recruitment cost is Xavier, and as of now he is the only unit in "negative utility" tier anyway, so it seems to agree with me (or rather, you agree with me, almighty owner of this tier list.)

[grandjackal]

It would even be wiser to re-recruit Marty, as where he is is a rather tight chokepoint of which he is accompanied by a fellow bandit. Rather than waste the weapon uses, just open the chokepoint by recruiting Marty, you now have one less guy to work on illing, and you can move on.

[Don Draper]

The lesser known FE SS runs where this guy skips unnecessary gaiden chapters in order to save turn count

http://www.youtube.com/user/rairaisword. I don't think he succeeded though since the video's end at chapter 19. He does interesting things like finishing chapter 4 so you don't waste turns going to 4X and without saving the civilians and killing Tanya so he doesn't go to 8X. Neither Olwen nor Eyrios was recruited since you have to go out of the way to recruit them. Dalshien was of course abandoned after chapter 5 due to his existance making it difficult to finish chapter 6 very quickly (I guess he can distract enemies and die though). Karin of course was instrumental in finishing a lot of his chapters quickly so I see no reason to drop her.

I think Eyval should move to lower mid, solely based on the number of turns that she shaves off for chapter 1,2,2x,3, and saving Nanna in chapter 5. Seriously how else will you be able to kill that chapter 2 boss?

Link doesn't work. This one does though:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rairaisword#p/u/26/5hed8GumtsU

[Balcerzak]

Link doesn't work. This one does though:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rairaisword#p/u/26/5hed8GumtsU

That's the problem with untagged, autoformatted hyperlinks. Forums have a tendency to include sentence punctuation into the URL, totally destroying things. Chopping that period off the end fixes it.

[Dat Nick]

and it takes 2 turns to re-recruit Eyvel with smart Warp usage

We're wasting Warp on Eyval, a unit who contributes nothing for those two warps I could have used on another chapter? Bullshit.

Warps aside, she even costs me an extra turn and will not be deployed in Final, meaning she will not save that turn. It's completely counter-productive no matter which angle you look at it from.

and as of now he is the only unit in "negative utility" tier anyway, so it seems to agree with me (or rather, you agree with me, almighty owner of this tier list.)

Unluckily for you, the tier is named "negative utility" and not "never used", as in it states the fact that Xavier contributes negatively if recruited for he will never be able to save the turns he spent you, rather than state the untrue generalization that he is never used. So your logic falls flat on it's face. Sorry. Find something else to accuse me of.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Sara below Linoan strikes me as a bit weird. I know Linoan's got a couple of chapters on Sara but uh, Linoan has to work her way up to a B rank in staves for her promotion to allow her to use Warp while Sara starts with a B and promotion instantly gives her the ability to use Warp so what's the reasoning behind this?

[dondon151]

We're wasting Warp on Eyval, a unit who contributes nothing for those two warps I could have used on another chapter? Bullshit.

Well, think about it this way. Let's assume for a second that you have that version of the game that doesn't have S, SS, or SSS ranks, so the highest that you can obtain is a AAA rank. Your list is a AA rank list. So what can you do?

1. Finish in 250-269 turns for a clean AA and recruit all characters possible.

2. Finish in 249 turns and abandon 1 character.

So who would that 1 character be? Xavier, as you claim, costs the player about 22 turns to recruit, so by default his penalty is greater than what he would save by being recruited. Furthermore, there is no "easy button" to recruiting Xavier - you'd have to get all of those civilians over to those armors, then you have to prevent green armors from counterkilling red armors; Eyvel only requires a Sara warp and a Leaf warp (2 turns). Well, I suppose she requires a few more turns on chapter 24 to obtain the Kia staff in the first place, and she's also responsible for saving us turns from chapters 1-3.

Consider first the scenario where the player abandons Xavier and 1-turns chapter 18, forcing chapter 24x and recruiting Eyvel.

Then, consider the scenario where the player abandons Eyvel and 23-turns chapter 18, skipping chapter 24x altogether.

The fact still remains that chapter 24x can be 2-turned if accessed with all objectives achieved while chapter 18 cannot be done the same way. If the player does take Xavier, he incurs a loss of 22 turns and gains a few extra uses of Warp. If the player takes Eyvel instead, he incurs a loss of a few turns and a few uses of Warp. A raw 22 turn deficit is a lot more difficult to work around than a Warp deficit. For example, by 24x you have:

Warp staves from 7 (1), 17A (2), 21x (2-5), 22 (1)

5 uses of Repair

Safy, Sara, Linoan, Sleuf, Salem with A staves, and maybe more

You can certainly spare Warp uses just to complete that 1 chapter. 24x requiring warps doesn't necessarily imply that those warps "could have been used elsewhere." It certainly doesn't detract from Warp use prior to chapter 17A, for example, as you only have 1 Warp available before then, and Safy is probably repairing it as necessary. It probably doesn't detract from Warp use prior to chapter 21x either. But then come 21x, you suddenly get anywhere from 2-5 fresh Warps, and the next chapter you get another one, with only the rest of the game to use them in. You can't possibly have used those staves earlier because you didn't have them. So 24x doesn't really incur a penalty on warps, because you probably have nowhere else to use them anyway. This means that Eyvel is by far a better choice for recruitment than Xavier. And since the maximum leeway on characters not recruited is 1, it then follows that the most efficient path is always taken, and Xavier will never be recruited. Hence, Xavier drops to bottom tier, and the rest of the tier list is basically exactly the same as the AAA rank tier list.

Edited April 22, 2010 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Well, think about it this way. Let's assume for a second that you have that version of the game that doesn't have S, SS, or SSS ranks, so the highest that you can obtain is a AAA rank. Your list is a AA rank list. So what can you do?

Do you know what else it says?

FE5 Tier list, AA Ranked i.e, turncount efficiency

As in, low turncount matters, not the actual rank. AA is the highest that can be achieved strictly from a low turncount.

wall of text that states the obvious, that eyval's re-recruitment cost is lesser than xavier's recruitment cost

Yeah, that's great. Here's the problem, just because re-recruiting Eyval is less of a negative than it is to recruit Xavier does not mean she isn't negative. So once again, your argument falls on its face.

and the rest of the tier list is basically exactly the same as the AAA rank tier list.

Because I'm using the other tier list as a base for this one and changing things as they apply.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Don Draper]

If we're going strictly by turncount, then there's no way every single staff user who can realistically get A rank staves isn't top tier

[Balcerzak]

First, you're misusing id est. Furthermore, turncount efficiency is found only in the subtitle, and not in the actual title, and subtitles are easily skimmed over. Finally, I'd have assumed that, if the subtitle were taken into account, it would be as a qualifier to the main title, that is, AA is the main goal, while the efficiency specification means simply that you're not lazing about and only just meeting the turncount requirement exactly.

None of these seem to actually be in order with what is becoming apparent is your actual wish for this tier list.

[Dat Nick]

If we're going strictly by turncount, then there's no way every single staff user who can realistically get A rank staves isn't top tier

No. I suppose not. Although going strictly by turncount puts a dent in the number of people who can realistically get said A staves (Tina I think should remain high up for her personal staves but I'm not seeing her getting A at all, and if shes does, it'll be fairly late)

There is Cyas, but really, there isn't an excuse not to have at least three warp users by the time he shows, so I don't think I like auto-topping him for that because Sara/Saphy/Sleuf can do what he does for warpskipping, and can do it for more of the game.

Furthermore, turncount efficiency is found only in the subtitle, and not in the actual title, and subtitles are easily skimmed over.

Because I didn't want to stretch the topic title with two things.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Detective Badd

[dondon151]

Yeah, that's great. Here's the problem, just because re-recruiting Eyval is less of a negative than it is to recruit Xavier does not mean she isn't negative. So once again, your argument falls on its face.

There is no problem. If you miss out on recruiting 1 character, your maximum rank is AA, regardless of turncount. Xavier is the best option to ignore, and should be the only character ignored. He will give the player the lowest turncount.

[Dat Nick]

Ideally both Xavier AND Eyval are ignored. Now can you be quiet, unless you have something productive to say?

Edited April 22, 2010 by Detective Badd

[dondon151]

How has anything that I have said been unproductive? How about you quiet your patronizing self for once and not ignore arguments damaging to your point? You can't ignore Xavier AND Eyvel. That would already exit the bounds established by your tier list. You've not even addressed my argument that Eyvel costing Warp uses is irrelevant because you get 2-5 from chapter 21x and 1 from chapter 22, and you only have the rest of the game left to use them.

[Dat Nick]

How about you quiet your patronizing self for once and not ignore arguments damaging to your point?

I'll gladly do that as soon as you bring up an argument that is actually damaging to my point.

You can't ignore Xavier AND Eyvel.

Why the fuck not? If two characters go unrecruited, it's the exact same thing as if one went unrecruited. Blood's already on your hands, your maximum turncount has already been reduced by 10 and it's never getting fixed. Might as well not recruit anybody else you have to go out of your way for. And this is assuming the "survival" rank is considered, which I have told you one hundred times that it is not.

That would already exit the bounds established by your tier list.

Uh...where? Do point me to the portion where it says "All characters except Xavier are recruited". I'll give you a hint. It says that nowhere. In fact, it explicitly states:

If you can't justify your recruitment cost, off you go to negative utility.

It costs a turn to re-recruit Eyval. Eyval does not do a damn thing in final because it is a guarantee she will not be fielded. Re-recruiting. Eyval. Is. Negative. Utility. All this does is group the act of re-recruiting Eyval and the act of recruiting Xavier. So no, it does not exit the non-existent "all characters are recruited unless they're xavier" boundry that is not enforced by this tier list. In fact, it supports the negative utility policy of this tier list perfectly.

You've not even addressed my argument that Eyvel costing Warp uses is irrelevant because you get 2-5 from chapter 21x and 1 from chapter 22, and you only have the rest of the game left to use them.

I don't need to address it. Going to 24x costs one turn for a unit who does nothing in the next chapter. That's enough to qualify re-recruiting Eyval as negative utility. Even if it's a small negative, it's still a negative.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Colonel M]

Nobody cares if you're awesome with brave weapons because everybody and their mother is and having to rely on them in a game where it's so difficult to acquire simple weapons is awful

Okay, maybe I'm overdoing this a little. But really. REALLY. If people think I'm overdoing this and nobody reasonable is going to cop that argument and most people do understand basic rules of favoritism, I'll remove it, but I seriously lost a lot of faith in humanity over that nonsense.

<&Colonel_M> Well Fin, sorry to say this bro.

<&Colonel_M> But you can't use your PRF weapon.

<&Colonel_M> Oh yeah, by the way Selphina.

<&Colonel_M> GTFO. Robert can use Iron Bows, you can't!

<&Colonel_M> Mareeta, I don't care if you have your own PRF Brave-type weapons. You can't use them.

<@IOS> olwen

<@IOS> daim thunder? fuck that

In other words: scrap this rule.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Hey look, another tier list that refuses to acknowledge that below bottom isn't the only kind of negative.

Change the name of the last tier.