Draft tier list

[Naglfar]

Really, why not? I think it'll be fun. Drafting is a very different game to HM. Here are a few differences and consequences I can think of off the top of my head:

-Drafts are played on NM.

--More BEXP to go around.

---Growth-based units are much better.

--Enemies are weaker.

---A bit of BEXP and pretty much anyone can double.

-You're only allowed to freely use thirteen units.

--You rarely have very many drafted units deployed.

---Units will level like crazy.

---Units should be able to survive and get kills well on their own.

----Units who suck at fighting plummet in usefulness.

--Availability weighs more heavily.

--It's much easier for everyone to get the resources they want.

--In the end, you'll have more BEXP than you can use.

-Transfers are disallowed.

--There won't be a transfer list?

So I'll propose this work-in-progress tier list, tweaked from the HM tier list. Inaccurate? Yes, probably very inaccurate, especially because I got lazy and only did like a third of it. I'll do some more later, at least. Still, join in and help me decide on some things. Thinking "this unit is better than this unit, this unit is worse than this unit, but is it worse than this unit?" on such a massive scale hurts my brain. Insults aimed at my intelligence and competence in 3, 2, 1...

Top

Haar

High

Sothe

Titania

Ike

Nolan

Nailah

Mia

Gatrie

Upper Middle

Volug

Zihark

Jill

Aran

Tibarn

Edward

Ilyana

Boyd

Oscar

Nephenee

Janaff

Ulki

Elincia

Mordecai

Micaiah

Shinon

Soren

Laura

Middle

Heather

Marcia

Tanith

Ranulf

Rolf

Meg

Tauroneo

Skrimir

Caineghis

Giffca

Muarim

Naesala

Kieran

Calill

Lower Middle

Geoffrey

Lucia

Black Knight

Brom

Tormod

Rhys

Ena

Sigrun

Makalov

Danved

Fiona

Vika

Low

Kurthnaga

Lethe

Renning

Volke

Stefan

Astrid

Gareth

Sanaki

Bastian

Nealuchi

Kyza

Leonardo

Pelleas

Bottom

Nasir

Mist

Lyre

Lehran

Oliver

Reyson

Leanne

Rafiel

Edited August 8, 2010 by Naglfar

[Anouleth]

Edward up. His earlygame utility is very important... and we can no longer assume Nolan is around to bail him out. I'd put him in Upper-Mid, above Boyd.

Tormod also up, above Stefan and Volke at least. Or Stefan/Volke down. Either works.

[Naglfar]

Edward between Jill and Boyd, Tormod between Lucia and Rolf, Volke and Stefan between Rhys and Ena. While I'm at it, Rolf between Marcia and Meg. Late joining instant-noodles units like Volke, Stefan and Renning should go down. Mm, Renning to the bottom of Low... Kyza and Pelleas between Leonardo and Nealuchi. Those last four will definitely move again, of course. Pelleas would drop some more, since despite going up thanks to BEXP allowing him to reach his potential, his join time holds him back like the others. I'm not sure where to put him, though.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Naglfar

[Soren37]

I'd say that it should go Nealuchi > Pelleas > Kyza > Leo. Nealuchi has those forced chapters where he can double and kill/severely weaken. Pelleas can find more use partially because he's the only character with Dark Magic, and Kyza may be overshadowed by the GMs.

Also, why are the herons in Bottom Tier? If we base this off of the HM Tier List, they're all in High or Top Tier. Their utility is extremely useful, even though they provide no combat.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Volug down a tier or two. First of all, Sothe renders his Part 1 up to maybe 1-8 to barely any use and still is unimpressive for the last two part 1 maps. From there, part 3 he's okay, but it's something a lot of other DB units can replicate. Come part 4, gauge and no 2-range really put a dent in his performance.

Also, what's the BK doing that high?

I'm also going to advocate Nephenee down. Her part 2 has a minimal effect on turn count as there's someone else you're going to use that will cut through the maps (Brom, Lucia, Elincia/Haar) and while you can go Nephinel, a lot of GMs can do the same with a similar shot of BEXP. I'd say below Oscar works.

[BigMeatyClawz]

I think Titania > Nolan. Nolan only has one chapter before Sothe starts doing 90% of the DB's heavy lifting. Titania has 3-1 to Nolan's 1-1, and has the benefits of being third tier 3-2 onwards. The only map she's bad on is 3-4 because of cliffs.

Also Mia to below Zihark. She's almost useless in 3-P because of low mov, durability and killing power. Not great in 3-1 for the same reasons. 3-2 I she can kill the boss with the wyrmslayer, but so can Ike and everyone has him so meh. 3-3 she should be able to kill somewhat reliably, and by 3-4 she's promoted so. Then you remember she has shit 1-2 range and you likely didn't get any other good GM, so your whole team sucks 1-2 range till Ragnell.

Zihark is basically a second Sothe which is much more helpful. 1-6-1 has armors and pegs that need to be killed by someone other than Sothe while he advances west to own with forged knives. 1-6-2 he has Fiona duty. 1-7 is mostly self improvement for him because again Sothe and the LEA(don't recruit them) are gonna be doing most of the killing. 1-8 he helps with the initial clear, or he can take a side and help you avoid penalties from the LEA or Nailah. 1-E he's kinda bad, but so's everyone else whose not the BK/Nailah. Part 3 he can take bexp and crown himself for the laguz. Lack of 1-2 hurts, but not too badly because forged knives in part 1(not to his credit obviously) and the DB part 3 is mostly laguz, and in 3-12 Allies can help with the rout.

[Ether]

People have trouble doubling early on even in NM,so only Ike and Shinon have better offense in 3-P, and Shinon is stuck with 2 range. 3-1 is a bitch chapter where every drafted character you can muster is extremely helpful, and she is still better than everyone except Ike, and possibly Titania in this map. Her durability is fine in these maps due to her natural Avo and the abundance of terrain meaning she will be on a thicket more often than not.

She promotes quickly, and 1-2 range isn't this massive thing. the most common use for it will be Sages,which she should nab with a Wind Edge anyway.

Zihark is just another body in part 1, since the extra EXP in Normal mode means any earlier drafts have a decent chance of being promoted when he joins, and Sothe still renders him obsolete.

[BigMeatyClawz]

The only people worse than Mia in 3-1 are Rolf, Mist, Rhys, Soren and arguably Boyd. Shinon shoots over the wall while the rest have good offense, durability, or move. Mia won't get a thicket in 3-1 because Ike gets it to due to not sucking on offense. She likely will go to robe house and around to the north halbs, so she doesn't get lolpwned by generals who may have WTA on her. Not being able to kill in early part 3 is because you're gonna have a bunch of forced people who will draw penalties if they get hit.

She's not promoting that quickly because Ike has to do most of the killing because of her offense and durability problems early on. She'll likely be promoted by 3-4, but so will everyone else thanks to the 3-3 crown. 1-2 range is huge in 3-8, 3-10 and 3-11 because they're filled with 1-2 range people who can't all be killed on Player Phase because of lack of people. Everyone besides archers/Mist has better 1-2 range than her(even Heather), and it's an obvious advantage. Having good 1-2 range >>>> not having it.

There's not enough exp to promote anyone by 1-5. At least if you want to play efficiently. Even if there was Zihark will have his adept which he can combine with a bunch of skills for lolz. Ike renders Mia more obsolete than Sothe Zihark since he gets effing Ragnell, and Sothe sucks in part 3 which is where Zihark will shine with Adept/Resolve/Vantage/Astra.

[Ether]

She's not hard to keep alive, and she still has one of the best offenses on the team. Throwing adept on her post promotion gives her a good kill rate even with Wind Edges, since she can promote quickly.

As for Zihark in part 3,if you thought Mia had survival issues...

[BigMeatyClawz]

She also has some of the worst move which is bad in a PT based on turncounts. Notice how Vykan never used Mia in his speedrun passed her forced part? It's because high movement with good offense >>>> average movement with the 2nd/3rd best offense on the team. Also everyone will be getting adept. You'll likely have Ike and one other good GM, and Ike doesn't really need adept. Resources are basically free in a draft PT.

Did you miss Resolve/Vantage/Adept? Throw in a support partner and if he dies on NM you suck at FE.

[Deliriyum]

I haven't done a FE10 draft, but common sense would tell me that the character with the most playtime in the game would be a bit higher than upper mid(Ilyana). Maybe she doesn't have the best endgame performance due to caps, but she'll peform fairly well all the rest of the time.And I don't think her durability is that restricting.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Core

[Psych]

I'd like to argue Ilyana above Boyd and Oscar, below Edward.

Thunder will be just as inacurate as axes and Greatlances, She'd be better for a Bolting, but gets her own SS weapon, Boyd gets you a Spirit Powder, but you have to draft Mist as well for that, and Mist is, well....Mist.

Her compatition for an early mage is Soren, since Micaiah is healing, and Tormod is never around. Calill is stuck in Crimea, so there's that as well.

Boyd has Jill, Nolan, Haar, and Titania. 4 competators, compared to 1. And Boyd's 2-range options are Hand axes, which break quickly and suck at hit, or Bowguns which suck at damage. Ilyana's options are everything, which suck at hit, but she's going to be ranging a lot more, but doing more damage compared to his options. She also gets inate Shade, while if you want a skill for Boyd, you're gonna have to transfer it over with Ilyana or Brom or someone, or take one off of someone.

She gets 8 chapters over him, and in Normal mode, should only be around 4 levels below him, depending on who else you draft, and when you promote her. Her mastery skill will also help get rid of all the magic bosses in the tower, but I suppose Boyd's helps since they don't have great defense.

Edited August 1, 2010 by psychout50

[Integrity]

Ilyana's got a lot of availability, but even with all the XP you can (hypothetically, she's not stealing most of it of her own accord) pour into her she's still not great. I've used her on NM before and rather favorited her on NM before and she never really blossoms. She'll have trouble doubling forever unless you give her the 1-E Speedwing in which case the Brigade will be left without it for their Part 3.

Herons are at the bottom for being hard to protect I can agree with to a point. However, they should be over such blessings as Oliver at least. Even with my gimpy team (Nolan, Laura, Ike) I was able to protect Rafiel in 4-4 and he shaved God knows how many turns. He can get a Galdr or two in in 1-8 and certainly can be used in the first turn of 1-E if not later depending on what team you have drafted. He's not gonna help Nailah much after Turn 1 obviously but any slower units (Meg, Nolan) will benefit. And this is the Heron with the lowest availability and shoddiest durability, to boot. Point is, you start being able to protect and use them in Part 4 - probably - and definitely in 4-E. Renning and Oliver, et cetera, aren't even usable until 4-E and once the footing is equal (i.e: both exist) the Herons have both an availability and a usefulness advantage.

Also, mind you, they operate entirely outside of resources unless you feel the need to feed them the (reassignable) Celerity and/or the Boots.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Integrity

[Fayt Zelpher]

One thing. Supports need to weigh a LOT less in this list. So, units like Zihark and Volug who rely on their Earth affinity + supports to become a dodge tank are going to be hurting. I would drop Z quite a bit. Z < Jill is unquestionable in my opinion for a draft list. And why I'm going to lose this one.

I wouldn't even put Zihark in upper-mid. He's top of mid at best.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Cocytus

[Psych]

Who really needs the 1-E wing? Zihark and Eddie don't. Nolan could use it, but Tarvos and Ranged weapons help him stay out of it. Jill maybe. Volug probably is the best bet. But why doesn't Ilyana get the 2-3 wing? Or we can try BEXP.

[Narga_Rocks]

Volug down a tier or two. First of all, Sothe renders his Part 1 up to maybe 1-8 to barely any use and still is unimpressive for the last two part 1 maps. From there, part 3 he's okay, but it's something a lot of other DB units can replicate. Come part 4, gauge and no 2-range really put a dent in his performance.

Also, what's the BK doing that high?

I'm also going to advocate Nephenee down. Her part 2 has a minimal effect on turn count as there's someone else you're going to use that will cut through the maps (Brom, Lucia, Elincia/Haar) and while you can go Nephinel, a lot of GMs can do the same with a similar shot of BEXP. I'd say below Oscar works.

Um, how do you figure they are getting a "similar" shot? Nephenee's huge advantage over the GMs is the 2-3 bexp. Haar is fine with a wing (and probably doesn't exist anyway) and Brom with that bexp is obviously massively inferior to Neph with it. It takes a few chapters in part 3 to even accumulate enough bexp to make someone that good. Neph > Ike for most of part 3 because she'll have his stats or better in everything but hp and in addition will have better 1-2 range (though from 3-4 to 3-7 Soren probably has better 1-2 range due to javelins not being forgeable until 3-7. But that's only 2 chapters, actually).

As for Mia, 21 speed still doesn't double stuff on NM in 3-1 and 3-P. At least, not the main things (warriors, halbs). And with enemies having less hp/def, Mia can probably 4HKO more things with the wo dao, meaning a massive proc rate for killing in comparison to units that can only use killer weapons for one whack. After that, sure, Titania and Haar are amazing in part 3 with their epicness, but Mia's going to be better than most of the rest. And come 3-11 storm swords exist and in part 4 she can have a tempest. She suffers a little in 3-8 and 3-10 due to 1-2 range forges existing, but that's all.

Also, Zihark will not likely have double earth due to Nolan and Volug probably being on someone else's team. And at best you are looking at a B in part 3. Granted there aren't many laguz with S rank weapons, but Zihark is still not going to be super-healthy. Plus, you have even more reason to stick Resolve elsewhere since you have fewer good characters so you might as well try to help out a growth character in part 3 so that you have an extra hand in part 4 (rout maps with your team split 3 ways).

[Integrity]

To post a different question: why is Mist in Bottom? She's not a spectacular or even really a particularly great unit, but Bottom?

Edited August 1, 2010 by Integrity

[Psych]

2nd question: Why the hell is Laura below Fiona?

Especially in NM, Laura is getting more Exp, more BEXP, and will be able to seal herself to tier 2 by the end of part 1. Durability is not great, very bad probably, but we get two robes. She should be promoted by the time Rafiel comes around, and can use his robe.

[Integrity]

Actually Laura's durability was - in my run - quite passing and I fed her BEXP and gimped the hell out of her HP for it.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Um, how do you figure they are getting a "similar" shot? Nephenee's huge advantage over the GMs is the 2-3 bexp. Haar is fine with a wing (and probably doesn't exist anyway) and Brom with that bexp is obviously massively inferior to Neph with it. It takes a few chapters in part 3 to even accumulate enough bexp to make someone that good. Neph > Ike for most of part 3 because she'll have his stats or better in everything but hp and in addition will have better 1-2 range (though from 3-4 to 3-7 Soren probably has better 1-2 range due to javelins not being forgeable until 3-7. But that's only 2 chapters, actually).

I recall Kirsche not having promoted Nephenee by joining the GMs due to having to supply Elincia some. Now compare level 18 (+17 levels) Nephenee to level 18 (+6 levels) Oscar by 3-2 (IIRC Rsteube had a promoted Oscar at this point, or very close to it), I'd consider both reasonable.

Neph:

40 hp|21 str|9 mag|26 skl|27 spd|19 lck|21 def|18 res

Oscar:

41 hp|22 str|8 mag|24 skl|24 spd|21 lck|19 def|14 res

It looks like Neph's speed lead means a win for her, but this is NM, where the magical 25 speed is the magical 24 speed, and Oscar can promote soon due to the 3-3 crown anyway. From there, after promotion, their offenses are pretty much equal and while Neph has a slight defense lead, Oscar has time to set up double earth with Ike, and they are both probably durable enough already, so it ends up coming down to a class comparison. Oscar's horse gives him the edge pretty much everywhere except 3-4 and part 4 the second map due to higher move and canto. 34 speed cap makes little difference in this type of playthrough.

[Naglfar]

I've made most of the changes that have been asked for here. Now I'll address a few things:

The herons are in bottom until the list settles down. Tiering them won't be easy.

Zihark down because he can't get a support is interesting, we'll have to discuss that further.

Mist's in Bottom because of her apparent inability to contribute. Her healing was quite useful for me in 3-1, but unless it starts proving to be useful more of the time, which is unlikely when you factor in how durable she is and how well she can be protected, she'll be staying pretty low. 8 base strength and 25 third tier cap isn't all that good for reaching the goal of a draft playthrough. I'm not sure why I fifth-picked her.

Laura's kind of weird. I expect she'll go up quite a bit but I'll need Int to tell me what she does. For now, I switched her position with Fiona's and then put Fiona below Tormod. From what Dark's told us (I think it was him), she failed to contribute much throughout all of P1.

WoMC, I have to assume Nephinel in roughly six out of seven cases, because your argument there only applies when Elincia and Nephenee are both drafted. Plus, you posted Nephenee's --/18 averages, meaning that only applies if you gave her 17 levels of CEXP before the end of P2. Clearly you didn't, you gave her BEXP. Rather, her --/18 stats next to Oscar's would look more like this:

Name         Level    HP|ST|MG|SK|SP|LK|DF|RS
Nephenee   --/18/0    41|22| 8|26|27|20|22|18
Oscar      --/18/0    41|22| 8|24|24|21|19|14

Yeah, it's not much different, but it is slightly superior to before, with +1 strength and defence most notable. Still, that's only a one-in-seven case, the rest of the time, 3-2 Nephenee vs 3-2 Oscar is going to look like this:

Name         Level    HP|ST|MG|SK|SP|LK|DF|RS
Nephinel   --/20/1    47|26|13|28|29|20|26|22
Oscar      --/18/0    41|22| 8|24|24|21|19|14

And now she's killing him everywhere except luck, which doesn't matter. Oh, and she has Impale... though she won't need it for much besides maybe Generals. I believe she can even double SMs with that speed. Oscar can counter with BEXP washing of his own, which he'll probably want to do when he gets to --/18, but that's your end of the argument. :3

Edited August 2, 2010 by Naglfar

[Psych]

And the Ilyana topic I brought up?

[Paperblade]

I'm not sure if I would tier the free units (Ike/Sothe/Micaiah).

Also, why is Heather so high? Her combat is shit and thief utility is pretty meh.

Edit: I would also argue Aran to below Jill. Flyer utility too good.

Double Edit: Keep in mind that if you draft someone like Calill or Geo, you'll want to give them BEXP for 3-9. Oscar can also crown after/during 3-3 and 3-2 is like 4 turned by Ike solo on a bad day. I still want to say that Neph wins for Part 2 utility.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Paperblade

[Naglfar]

Ah... forgot, somehow. I'm not so sure about Ilyana, her durability worries me. Squishy Wizard and all that. I'll have a look at her stats.

Edit: I'm not sure where to put Heather. Jill > Aran sounds good, I moved Aran below her and the two of them above Tibarn. Tibarn might go above them again, just because he's so good in his P4 chapters.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Naglfar

[Paperblade]

The main problem I see with Ilyana is that you need to put a lot of effort into her for her to be better than Rolf in Part 3 (who was pretty underwhelming for me even with Crossbow/Bowgun + Shade perma-equipped so that people would attack Gats or Ike), which can really hurt your turn counts for the DB's 3-6/3-12/3-13.