Should the mentally disabled be allowed to stay in society?

[Nestling]

I know I sound horrible when I say this, but seriously, I want to bring up this sensitive topic because it's tearing me apart right now.

If I haven't assed about it enough, I currently live with my mentally disabled sister. She's about 20 (turning 21 this November). Let me describe her for you.

I could describe stuff that you don't care about. Stuff like "Oh! She likes animals!" or "She likes to tear boxes", but let's take a look at her from a standpoint that is actually relevant to the discussion at hand. She's rude, she's lazy, she's arrogant, she complains about everything not pertaining to her, she's gluttonous, and she expects that everyone treats her with the absolute utmost respect, even if she treats them like dirt. She spends her days going to an Adult School, going to work, getting fed breakfast at nice restraunts, occasionally working at entry level jobs, and the rest of it is pretty much a day-care center. They learn how to do stuff, like hygene and stuff, but for the most part, it's just an adult day-care center. You know those "entry level jobs" that I just said. She gets paid for those. That's right, she's pretty much garunteed a job because her chromosomes are screwed up. ALONG with that, our family gets money from the government because she is legally disabled and therefore qualifies for a disability check. For life. Which pretty much means that federal funds are being spent to give free money to a person who does nothing to society other then give idiots a thing to tease.

I want to make a distinction. I know that if I don't mention this, someone's going to mention "WELL PEOPLE WITH AUTISM ARE STILL SMART", and I don't deny that. I know a few autistic people, and I don't find anything much wrong with them. You know why? Because they're not horribly arrogant and expectant. They're not rude and slow-witted and psuedo-princesses. My argument is about those whom are just pretty much in the barrier between normal function and vegetable level.

Now, I speak from experience. I live with my sister, as I said earlier, who has William's Syndrome, and I had a friend of mine (She believed that we were boyfriend and girlfriend for most of elementary and middle school, causing me to get into assloads of trouble, as I'll explain later), and I know plenty more where that came from. I want to make sure that everyone knows that my claims are not made because I am ill informed of the mentally disabled. I want to make sure everyone knows that I'm not hating them because they're mentally disabled. I just dislike them because of their inherit personality traits and their disbenefit to society.

So now into my main argument. As I said earlier, these people are bringing nothing much to society. There's the stories about how someone overcame the syndromes and did something (generally not glorified if they were done by a person without the syndromes) special. But really, what do they bring into society? Now, you can say "WELL THERE'S A LOT OF DUMB PEOPLE IN THE WORLD TOO WHO AREN'T DISABLED, THAT DON'T DO ANYTHING", and to that, I say that at least most of them are capable of working a job. They have potential to be successful in something, and a good portion at least have a basic job (or a skill that can be used, even if just in the local community). But with the mentally disabled, they can't bring much. From an economic standpoint, they're negatives. Huge negatives. Are there other groups who act as negatives? Yes. But one problem at a time, and I feel it's high time that this problem be taken care of.

For instance, let's use Phineas and Ferb as an example. I feel they had a pretty decent representation of how I feel society treats the mentally disabled.

So Doofenschmirtz kinda sucked at his project and made some kind of disabled Perry clone. In summary, he pretty much stated that although he was pretty much useless, but he was just so damn cute or something (Which is how a lot of people view them. Kind of like pets, when the disabled do something that is "extraordinary" aka mildly impressive in non-disabled standards, it's "cute"). You want to know what happened? Perry the Disabled Platapus screwed everything up and pretty much broke the machine that was sure to destroy Perry the Platapus. So he lost. Kind of like how in my life, plenty of times, I've been denied opporotunities and chances because my sister wanted to do something or needed some kind of operation or something. I might not be in such a rush to get scholarships if it hadn't been for my sister and her incredibly expensive operations, for instance.

I know that my opinions are probably extremely different from the norm. Maybe I've just had bad experience. For instance, with my friend with the Down's Syndrome, she's seen as an amazing person to most, because she. . . ? ? ?. . . I guess it's because they just decided to glorify her or something. But most of them only see her on occasion. They haven't been sitting in the office in risk of suspension because the friend had screamed "I WAS WITH BRIAN NAKED IN THE SHOWER" during class, or a plethora of things other then that. Most of them haven't spent decades with a mentally disabled person living in their own home. Their lack of care, their lack of character, their lack of decent humanness, and then expecting nothing less then perfection out of all others. I don't speak from one example. I don't speak from two examples. I speak from many. So I want to ask you guys this. Should they be allowed to stay in society? What benefit do they bring? Obviously, I haven't found one, and I've had almost 17 years to figure it out. So should they be allowed?

. . . welp, here I go. My social credibility skyrockets downward but at least I feel accomplished in knowing that I've stood from the crowd and decided to have my opinions heard in the open.

[Dr.Sholes]

Yes, they should. You personally sound angry, now I may be wrong about that but that's just what it seems like. People see them as cut because in society it's okay to look down at them and people do but sub-consciously feel bad about that or try to feel bad for them, which they shouldn't. You're saying they're negatives for the economy but one could also argue how big that negative really is, the economy is a mess(in The U.S. at least) so it's really hard to say for sure. As for the disabilities check they give that when the person may not be able to support themselves otherwise. Saying they shouldn't be allowed to stay in society is very elitist and IMO the government should have no rights to tell people they can't be allowed to stay in society ever, especially not for something they're born with. Saying that they have bad traits, like being rude and self absorbed, isn't much of an argument because I see self absorbed assholes everyday and they are "normal." People usually are what they're raised to be, if parents baby their kids through life and give them everything then, yeah they are going to be self absorbed. I have a younger brother who's developmentally delayed and very visually impaired and I see how society treats people like him and it pisses me off. People need to be more accepting and then maybe they can get over themselves and fix bigger problems. I don't mean to argue with you in any way, this is just my opinion but I hope it helps you.

[Othin]

So you are proposing a situation in which the government can force people out of society on the basis of them being causing minor problems while committing no crimes. I think you need to think a bit more clearly about what that would mean. Perhaps in thinking about the kind of precedent that would set you can realize how this proposal of yours is just as insane as, say, Nazism.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Othin

[Lord Raven]

This rant rubs me the wrong way completely... does it occur to you that they don't have the ability to realize this or anything...? I don't like the idea of comparing it to Nazism, but Hitler did kill mentally disabled people because they were a "hindrance" to society. A rather extreme example of what you're suggesting but... the title of this thread just rubs me the wrong way.

. . . welp, here I go. My social credibility skyrockets downward but at least I feel accomplished in knowing that I've stood from the crowd and decided to have my opinions heard in the open.

And that you're ignorant and you also possess some of these selfish, arrogant traits that you accuse your sister of. Edited November 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Rehab]

You might get more of an interesting discussion if you asked whether society should cater to mentally disabled people, or to what extent. Just imo

[Esaka]

I fail to see how you could possibly get a load off from writing this, in no way will you make a difference in this uncomfortable topic by posting in a FE forum.

[Nestling]

What I'm proposing is the removal of those whom are mentally inable in any sort of way to benefit society. I'm not meaning to sound like an angry rant, and if I am, I apoligize. I've had these ideas for quite a while, so I'm not just angrily ranting just because I like to angrily rant.

I'm completely against the teasing of them for the simple fact that they can't do anything as well as others. I'm against the fact that they can use their disabilities to ride through life on a free ticket of cluelessness and get paid money for it, while living their lives as narcissistic asshats who don't really benefit society. Even those non-disabled people who are self-centered lazy asshats still at least benefit society with being able to work jobs with decent skill or at least be able to do SOMETHING.

Even if they aren't totally exiled from society, some stuff needs to change. I think it's completely pointless to give them TWO outlets of pretty much free money, just for literally existing. Even if I'm thinking too intensely right now, don't you feel that this babying right now is completely wrong? As you said, people whom are babied throughout their life are going to be narcissistic. Shouldn't we take that into account and stop giving all of these benefits to these people whom bring absolutely nothing? Even if completely exile is not achieved, shouldn't their at least be reform?

meh.

[Paperblade]

I support OP, but only if we start with him.

[Dark Sage]

What I'm proposing is the removal of those whom are mentally inable in any sort of way to benefit society. I'm not meaning to sound like an angry rant, and if I am, I apoligize. I've had these ideas for quite a while, so I'm not just angrily ranting just because I like to angrily rant.

I'm completely against the teasing of them for the simple fact that they can't do anything as well as others. I'm against the fact that they can use their disabilities to ride through life on a free ticket of cluelessness and get paid money for it, while living their lives as narcissistic asshats who don't really benefit society. Even those non-disabled people who are self-centered lazy asshats still at least benefit society with being able to work jobs with decent skill or at least be able to do SOMETHING.

Even if they aren't totally exiled from society, some stuff needs to change. I think it's completely pointless to give them TWO outlets of pretty much free money, just for literally existing. Even if I'm thinking too intensely right now, don't you feel that this babying right now is completely wrong? As you said, people whom are babied throughout their life are going to be narcissistic. Shouldn't we take that into account and stop giving all of these benefits to these people whom bring absolutely nothing? Even if completely exile is not achieved, shouldn't their at least be reform?

meh.

So you're proposing we send all our mentally disabled people to other countries then? Or that all countries should kick out their mentally disabled to live on an island?

I don't think you have a firm grasp of reality here bro.

[Original Alear]

Where exactly is society headed? To what grand purpose is all this? What wonderful conclusion to the journey humanity has embarked on exactly are we disabled people hindering? Let's discuss the journey's end before we worry about how we're going to get there and who we're bringing. It seems like you have a particularly hard, and possibly unfair situation, but I have compassion for others, disabled and not. I should be free of concern for others, since there is probably nothing I can do for them, but I am not. While I have sympathy for your situation, I also have sympathy for your sister's. And I don't believe that purging the problem posed by people who are different from you is the proper solution. That's just a personal point of view, you are free to feel differently.

Moreover, because I am a monster, I will go a little further and suggest that even if your sister really was so problematic as to consider euthanizing her - and let's be blunt here, that's the kindest option if you are talking about removing someone from society, because tearing someone out of their environment and putting them in the wild or something is almost certainly condemning them to death by starvation - that would not be adequate justification to consider euthanizing all disabled people, mentally or not. And if you are going to suggest institutions for the disabled akin to prisons, that has been tried in the past and it was very far from ideal. The best reality seems to be for disabled people to receive compassion from those who are close to them, rather than to deal with them as some sort of problem that needs to be isolated from society. Unless you have no compassion and are utterly selfish. Which is your right.

[Paperblade]

Or that all countries should kick out their mentally disabled to live on an island?

No that's what we do for criminals.

[Nestling]

And that you're ignorant and you also possess some of these selfish, arrogant traits that you accuse your sister of.

Just as my topic rubbed you the wrong way, this post rubs me the wrong way. I don't see how I've presented myself as ignorant. To begin, I've had experience with many people of this sort and have made an opinion on how I would like this situation to be dealt with. My ideas may be uncommon, but surely I have reason to believe so. I may be presenting myself as selfish, but I'm only using examples of myself because I know that there's plenty of other people whom feel the way I am. I'm not posting this because I'm pissed off at my sister. I'm posting this because I'm tired of all of the destruction that has fallen into lives because of this group of people. Not just myself, but many others. Not just for petty annoyance, but rather loss of success due to this group.

But I'm a bit irked that you simply go off into unsupported claims of pretty much calling me selfish and arrogant without any sort of proof. This is the Serious Discussion board. Leave your namecalling for FFtF.

[Original Alear]

No that's what we do for criminals.

Aren't we running out of islands.

[Lord Raven]

What are we going to do with them? Leave them in the streets? Getting ridiculed by everyone that walks by? Make them batshit insane? They literally are unable to much properly without help, and of course they're clueless because they're mentally challenged.

There is literally no way to "remove them from society" without being completely inhumane.

Experience with a group of people doesn't make you less ignorant- you literally do not understand the mentality of someone retarded is what I am getting at. I don't understand how it feels like to be mentally challenged, but I'm not going to pretend I know like you do.

If you lost any degree of success due to this group, the burden ends up lying on you and obviously retarded people are a bit of a convenient outlet for you. I'm sure people have had much worse obstacles in their life than you and they managed to pull themselves out, so don't even begin to blame the mentally retarded on your failures.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Paperblade]

Aren't we running out of islands.

We still have Antarctica

[Original Alear]

We still have Antarctica

Actually, with proper support that could be pretty sweet. Penguins and whatnot. I want dogsledding back before I go though.

Edited November 9, 2011 by BlueMartianKitty

[Nestling]

Moreso, I'm kind of irked that people have resorted to simple idiocy to argue back to me. I agree that my points may be radical. I agree that my points may be illogical. But that gives you absolutely no right to simply throw me under the bus and call me a selfish idiot. I thank those whom are actually providing decent arguments disproving mine. I pity those whom simply resort to calling me some kind of monster.

Also, I never said "KILL ALL THE DISABLED PEOPLE." That falls under manslaughter. I just suggest that they be removed from the confines of regular society and maybe be placed in areas secluded from society. I'm not radical enough to consider torture. I'm just radical enough to suggest exile. Not so much exile from the country, but exile from the lives of those whom are feeling the negative effects of these people.

[Othin]

What I'm proposing is the removal of those whom are mentally inable in any sort of way to benefit society. I'm not meaning to sound like an angry rant, and if I am, I apoligize. I've had these ideas for quite a while, so I'm not just angrily ranting just because I like to angrily rant.

Before we go any further, I think we need to know exactly what this "removal" you're proposing would entail in the first place (if you've even thought ahead to such an important step) and how the people would be judged as "mentally unable" to benefit society (based on their spelling?).

[Lord Raven]

In order for something to be a petty insult it needs to lack basis and relevance. My "insults" as you call them do not. Also I never called you can idiot.

I just suggest that they be removed from the confines of regular society and maybe be placed in areas secluded from society.

That's... inhumane. Do you read what you are saying before you post? Do you realize how many human rights violations you are committing by posting this? Lazy and narcissistic people aren't very contributive at all despite having the ability, and yet you don't suggest we place them anywhere despite some of them actually not attempting at all. Edited November 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Othin]

Moreso, I'm kind of irked that people have resorted to simple idiocy to argue back to me. I agree that my points may be radical. I agree that my points may be illogical. But that gives you absolutely no right to simply throw me under the bus and call me a selfish idiot. I thank those whom are actually providing decent arguments disproving mine. I pity those whom simply resort to calling me some kind of monster.

Also, I never said "KILL ALL THE DISABLED PEOPLE." That falls under manslaughter. I just suggest that they be removed from the confines of regular society and maybe be placed in areas secluded from society. I'm not radical enough to consider torture. I'm just radical enough to suggest exile. Not so much exile from the country, but exile from the lives of those whom are feeling the negative effects of these people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto

If you're going to keep advocating what is basically Nazism, I think it's quite reasonable to say that you're being a dick and/or don't quite realize what you're saying (read: are ignorant).

Edited November 9, 2011 by Othin

[Paperblade]

I just suggest that they be removed from the confines of regular society and maybe be placed in areas secluded from society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp#Concentration_camps

[Original Alear]

Also, I never said "KILL ALL THE DISABLED PEOPLE." That falls under manslaughter. I just suggest that they be removed from the confines of regular society and maybe be placed in areas secluded from society. I'm not radical enough to consider torture. I'm just radical enough to suggest exile. Not so much exile from the country, but exile from the lives of those whom are feeling the negative effects of these people.

Wonderful. Systematized segregation. Are the blacks going next, when the whites find them inconvenient?

Edited November 9, 2011 by BlueMartianKitty

[Nestling]

If you lost any degree of success due to this group, the burden ends up lying on you and obviously retarded people are a bit of a convenient outlet for you. I'm sure people have had much worse obstacles in their life than you and they managed to pull themselves out, so don't even begin to blame the mentally retarded on your failures.

Maybe I am using them as a convenient outlet. But take a look at this.

I plan on being a music major. Because you know, as you said, I'm totally retarded and anything academic is totally out of the question. So anyways, I'm stuck scraping the ground to find any sort of money because my sister needs so many operations. My record is ruined by all of the trouble that I have gotten into because of literally RANDOM instances that have come from the mentall disabled, after I tried showing compassion. I know that after my parent's death, I'll be stuck having to take care of her. Right now, my parents are hardworking people, whom spend their entire day working to overcome the burden that has fallen onto them. My mom has the ability to become the boss of her firm, but is forced to work a part-time job because she has to support my sister. I know that once I find jobs in the music industry, I'll be completely limited, because I've already been told that I will be given the burden of taking care of my sister once both of my parents die. Even if I'm just using them as a convenient outlet, I think I'm pretty justified. Even if maybe I am just some lazy selfish bum, these people have surely had a huge influence on me in a negative way.

[Dark Sage]

Also, I never said "KILL ALL THE DISABLED PEOPLE." That falls under manslaughter. I just suggest that they be removed from the confines of regular society and maybe be placed in areas secluded from society. I'm not radical enough to consider torture. I'm just radical enough to suggest exile. Not so much exile from the country, but exile from the lives of those whom are feeling the negative effects of these people.

@Bolded: Actually, that's called murder and I doubt you've thought this through at all.

By placing them in a secluded area away from everyone else, you are condemning them to die from, say, starvation. It technically is exile and murder since you're sending them off to die because they're going to be in a place where they can't get help. It would honestly be better if you did just say kill all disabled people.

Furthermore, this is selfish of you. Most mentally handicapped people did nothing to you and because your sister has negative personality traits and is really annoying you, that makes it ok to remove mentally handicapped people from society? That's a sick way of thinking and you need professional help.

Finally radical =/= torture or exile. Have you even looked at a dictionary?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Othin]

Maybe I am using them as a convenient outlet. But take a look at this.

I plan on being a music major. Because you know, as you said, I'm totally retarded and anything academic is totally out of the question. So anyways, I'm stuck scraping the ground to find any sort of money because my sister needs so many operations. My record is ruined by all of the trouble that I have gotten into because of literally RANDOM instances that have come from the mentall disabled, after I tried showing compassion. I know that after my parent's death, I'll be stuck having to take care of her. Right now, my parents are hardworking people, whom spend their entire day working to overcome the burden that has fallen onto them. My mom has the ability to become the boss of her firm, but is forced to work a part-time job because she has to support my sister. I know that once I find jobs in the music industry, I'll be completely limited, because I've already been told that I will be given the burden of taking care of my sister once both of my parents die. Even if I'm just using them as a convenient outlet, I think I'm pretty justified. Even if maybe I am just some lazy selfish bum, these people have surely had a huge influence on me in a negative way.

Boo fucking hoo.

Lots of people have problems far worse than those. Are your tiny inconveniences worth ruining peoples' lives over and denying them their rights as humans? I think not.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Othin