CrashGordon94 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 It's because of how SMT treats religion, nasty shit like making the Christian Gods and the Hindu deities bad guys while protraying Satan and demons in a positive light. I mean it specifically offends me a great deal since I'm a Christian and therefore among those whose beliefs are getting shat on by these nasty games but surely you can see how that's bad too? I can certainly feel for the other people who are getting the same treatment too. None of the stuff in GTA compares to that sort of thing... Plus I get the sense that the people who make SMT genuinely believe this screwed up hateful crap while it's plainly obvious that Rockstar North don't condone murder, theft and other miscellaneous crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Actually, SMT just uses the extreme Law and Chaos kind of things. To the extreme. You'd actually like how YHVH is portrayed in the games since he's Black and White TO THE EXTREME. >w> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onestep Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 It's because of how SMT treats religion, nasty shit like making the Christian Gods and the Hindu deities bad guys while protraying Satan and demons in a positive light. I mean it specifically offends me a great deal since I'm a Christian and therefore among those whose beliefs are getting shat on by these nasty games but surely you can see how that's bad too? I can certainly feel for the other people who are getting the same treatment too. None of the stuff in GTA compares to that sort of thing... Plus I get the sense that the people who make SMT genuinely believe this screwed up hateful crap while it's plainly obvious that Rockstar North don't condone murder, theft and other miscellaneous crimes. Except that's wrong. The prevailing themes in ALL SMT games is that extreme Law (God and his Angels) and extreme Chaos (Lucifer and the demons) are both portrayed as being the wrong path. The most positive path in every SMT game, with no exception, is the path where humanity rejects divine or demonic interference and strives to walk it's own path. And the rest of that is just your personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashGordon94 Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 Actually, SMT just uses the extreme Law and Chaos kind of things. To the extreme. You'd actually like how YHVH is portrayed in the games since he's Black and White TO THE EXTREME. >w> No I bloody wouldn't! Except that's wrong. The prevailing themes in ALL SMT games is that extreme Law (God and his Angels) and extreme Chaos (Lucifer and the demons) are both portrayed as being the wrong path. The most positive path in every SMT game, with no exception, is the path where humanity rejects divine or demonic interference and strives to walk it's own path. So my complaint about it portraying God/angels as evil stands... Also, the heroes apparently befriend and fight with demons and Satan is apparently a good guy in one of the older games plus Ein keeps saying how awesome "Lucifer" apparently is in a way which suggests a positive portrayal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 oh man derailment I'll just say that in SMT, it's up to you, THE PLAYER, to decide who is "wrong" and who is "right". Besides, Satan is a separate entity who serves under YHVH. o3o If ya want we can discuss this somewhere else in greater detail as to not derail the train any further. :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onestep Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 No I bloody wouldn't! So my complaint about it portraying God/angels as evil stands... Also, the heroes apparently befriend and fight with demons and Satan is apparently a good guy in one of the older games plus Ein keeps saying how awesome "Lucifer" apparently is in a way which suggests a positive portrayal. Y'know, if you're just going to highlight one part of my post, and ignore the rest, then there's really little point talking to you. But I agree with Ein. This derailment has gone far enough. If you want to make a seperate thread in another forum, then we can discuss this there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 So my complaint about it portraying God/angels as evil stands... Also, the heroes apparently befriend and fight with demons and Satan is apparently a good guy in one of the older games plus Ein keeps saying how awesome "Lucifer" apparently is in a way which suggests a positive portrayal. Do you even play the stuff you complain about?APPARENTLY you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) Crash, did you have these same complaints about Radiant Dawn? Because in Radiant Dawn, the good guys fight alongside the in-universe equivalent of Satan, against the in-universe equivalent of God. And it got an E10+ ESRB rating. Edited November 11, 2012 by Paper Jam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onestep Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 WHY IS THIS CONVERSATION STILL GOING ON ARGHHHHHHH seriously i will make a fftf thread if it will shut everyone up about SMT in this thread it'll be great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Also, the heroes apparently befriend and fight with demons and Satan is apparently a good guy in one of the older games plus Ein keeps saying how awesome "Lucifer" apparently is in a way which suggests a positive portrayal. Besides, Satan is a separate entity who serves under YHVH. o3o To be perfectly frank, this is entirely in accordance with old testament scripture. Ha-Satan (The Adversary) is in fact one of God's agents, who works for him. Jews I've discussed this with in some degree of depth in the past have likened him to a prosecutor or someone setting up a sting operation. He also cannot exceed the authority granted him by Ha-Shem (The Name, aka God). In more interesting notes, also in scripture, Helel (Lucifer), only occurs once in old testament scripture, I believe it was Isaiah. There is no strong reason to conflate the two entities, especially as it seems more likely to be in reference to a the fall from glory of a certain individual Babylonian King, but I believe one offshoot sect of Judaism pushed for this interpretation, in addition to using the extrabiblical Books of Enoch to create the overall narrative of The Fall, and the War in Heaven, that was later expanded upon by folks like John Milton. This was the popular interpretation for awhile, and Christianity split before later Jewish scholars once again rejected, unless I'm mistaken. Edited November 13, 2012 by Balcerzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momo Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 My favorite moment is the P4 Anime, where the group uses the power of friendship to summon Lucifer. It's just the wacky Japanese shock value, get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It's because of how SMT treats religion, nasty shit like making the Christian Gods and the Hindu deities bad guys while protraying Satan and demons in a positive light. There are a few things wrong here: 1 - I'm pretty sure Christianity is a monotheistic religion, so there's just one God. 2 - The Hindu deities have different alignments, so not all of them are portrayed as "bad guys". 3 - Satan is actually a servant of YHVH (aka God), much like in the old testament (as Balcerzak kindly pointed out). 4 - No, demons aren't portrayed in a positive light. No one is portrayed in any sort of light. They're just simply portrayed as extremes of things, not necessarily "good" or "bad". Like Ein said... in SMT, it's up to you, THE PLAYER, to decide who is "wrong" and who is "right". So yeah. YHVH and his followers are portrayed as being excessively lawful, while Lucifer and his followers are portrayed as excessively chaotic. Plus I get the sense that the people who make SMT genuinely believe this screwed up hateful crap Why? Just because it's a controversial subject doesn't mean that they actually mean this stuff. Or are you going to tell me any writer who writes a villain actually believes in the villain's beliefs? Also, the heroes apparently befriend and fight with demons and Satan is apparently a good guy in one of the older games plus Ein keeps saying how awesome "Lucifer" apparently is in a way which suggests a positive portrayal. Yes, befriending demons is an essential part of the game. It still doesn't mean that the developers worship Satan and kick puppies, or that demons are good; you're just getting some (much needed) help. Lucifer is, by the way, a psychotic demon who wants to reduce humanity to a feral state of chaos. I'll let you think how positive that portrayal is. You'd do well to stop getting your facts from TV Tropes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 The only SMT games I've played are the Devil Survivor games (both rated T), but I like those games let you choose to end them in whatever way you see fit. You can become a Messiah, you can become the King of Demons, you can choose to use demons for the good of mankind, you can exterminate all demons, or you can get bad end'd and have the demons win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 My favorite moment is the P4 Anime, where the group uses the power of friendship to summon Lucifer. It's just the wacky Japanese shock value, get over it. Yes. That was amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momo Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 They also use the phrase "demons" for anything you can summon, including things like angles. They even make this odd distinction in Strange Journey, where the Law aligned lady won't use demons, but had no problem using the angel ones. It makes me think whoever thought these things up just doesn't quite get what they mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) They also use the phrase "demons" for anything you can summon, including things like angles. They even make this odd distinction in Strange Journey, where the Law aligned lady won't use demons, but had no problem using the angel ones. It makes me think whoever thought these things up just doesn't quite get what they mean. Whoa whoa whoa. WHOA. You can summon angles? Edited November 13, 2012 by Ein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) They also use the phrase "demons" for anything you can summon, including things like angles. They even make this odd distinction in Strange Journey, where the Law aligned lady won't use demons, but had no problem using the angel ones. It makes me think whoever thought these things up just doesn't quite get what they mean. I didn't read it raw, but that might be due to different Japanese terms all being translated to the single English term demon. I may have to look into that. Edit: What I mean is that while obviously they all are "demons" in the terms of being called through the demon summoning app, in the text Zelenin might have used a different, non gameplay term, more specifically describing a certain class of demons. Again, I wouldn't know without seeing the Japanese. Edited November 13, 2012 by Balcerzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Changing the topic for a bit so I can make a stupid question... Are there other english Shin Megami Tenseis that are not for the PS2 and DS/PSP? I wish I could play them, but the nasty Dwarf Fortress-like graphics and bad script on the older games annoy me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momo Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) There's SMT Imagine, a PC MMO, but from what I've heard it's not very good. Edited November 13, 2012 by Momo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Persona 5's on the way, and could be a PS3 release. Hard-pressed to think of anything that isn't Catherine, otherwise, which is kind of a spinoff at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Whoa whoa whoa. WHOA. You can summon angles? What's the matter, you don't speak angles? And yeah, the SMT series is a strange product, perhaps not so much when we take into account the culture where it is produced, a bizarre hybrid knowing that its culture is not exactly its target audience. Then again, who else saw any zombie senators named Jesus in the Disgaea games? It's either there 'for the lulz', to provoke, or the people behind it assume it is a non-issue, because how many devout religious people does one expect to go after a game where you summon 'demons'? Metatron being a demon is funny, as are other choices, but like somebody pointed out, it comes from a largely atheistic culture where all are treated as product of collective imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Just because something has a name that associates it with a religion, don't assume it's actually a god, or that its drawing its principal influences from that tradition. A good example is YHWH - it seems to draw much more from a "gnostic" tradition than from a (at the very least, contemporary) jewish tradition. I put gnostic in quotes cuz fuck if I'm an authority. But YHWH seems to lack a real "necessary" connection to Jesus (which doesn't mesh well with most modern christianity at all), doesn't really seem to have much of a holy ghost component either. It also doesn't seem to be omnipotent - much more like a demiurge. Obviously it bears some similarities though - the demiurge (AFAIK) is more like a different interpretation of "the father" than something that's totally different. But gnosticism would call god something completely different, I think. Just play the damn games and enjoy the damn monster artwork. It's good stuff. Of the ones I've played, I like the art for strange journey best. Edited November 14, 2012 by L1049 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karasz Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) ^ Strange Journey does indeed have some damn good art. As much as I like this series, I can't help but feel that religion tempers are going to flare up because of how the angels are going to be depicted in Shin Megami Tensei IV. Don't believe me? Take a look at this. This is the official art for RAPHAEL in the next installment. Not very angel-like, is it? The notion of a deity's face on a demon-looking machine would make anyone who's extremely crazy about religion fly into a frenzy. Sheesh, makes me wonder what they're going to pull for Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, Metatron, and YHVH. o_o Edited November 14, 2012 by Karaszure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) The guest artist designs for some of the demons look nice but I do miss Omoikane the brain. Hopefully more archangels appear in SMT4 other than just the big 5. :3 Actually, if DDS2 is any indication the four Archangels are kind of lost without YHVH so their appearance being different makes sense. Even if it is the first time one of them changes in terms of appearance but yeah. Thank you vague references to SMT2. Edited November 14, 2012 by Ein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) "The Devil, that proud spirit, cannot bear to be mocked." (Thomas More) I like to think that God can, since He is everything that the Devil is not. There is really no need to be insulted on God's behalf. Edited November 14, 2012 by Paper Jam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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