PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[charmedx3]

I have a question, i already made my pairing settled in one file which will be a permanent one, i know some of them aren´t optimal just personal favourites, but i was wondering which would be the best final class and skills for:

Chrom!Cynthya

Sumia!Lucina

Virion!Inigo

Vaike!Brady

Frederick!Gerome

Stahl!Severa

Henry!Noire

Libra!Owain

Donnel!Nowi

Gregor!Yarne

Gaius!Kjelle

Ricken!Laurent

Also on a second file between Henry, Libra, Kellam and Ricken Frederick and Virion who will be better with who among Panne, Nowi, Miriel and Sully ?

[Ownagepuffs]

Avatar x Lucina > Chrom!Cynthia > Severa/Kjelle/other Cynthia > Sumia/Cordelia > everyone else

Chrom x Sumia/Maribelle/Olivia

Lissa x Stahl/Ricken/Libra/Henry

Sully x Gaius/Donnel

Miriel x Lon'qu/Ricken/Gregor/Libra

Sumia x Chrom/Henry

Maribelle x Chrom/Virion/Lon'qu/Ricken/Libra/Henry

Panne x Virion/Stahl/Gregor

Cordelia x Virion/Vaike/Stahl/Lon'qu/Ricken

Nowi x Vaike/Stahl/Henry

Tharja x Fred/Vaike/Ricken/Gaius

Olivia x Chrom/Fred/Stahl/Ricken/Libra/Henry

Cherche x Virion/Vaike/Stahl/Ricken/Gregor/Henry

I should save this post for future use!

[Vascela]

FeMU x Chrom > Avatar x Lucina tho.

[Alastor15243]

FeMU x Chrom > Avatar x Lucina tho.

Only for in-game. Avatar X Lucina is way better. Second generation spouses for MU are always best.

[Vascela]

Only for in-game. Avatar X Lucina is way better. Second generation spouses for MU are always best.

FeMU x Chrom stomp 100% Apo before Lucina even needs to be recruited? So how is that "way better"?

[Bovinian]

Avatar x Lucina > Chrom!Cynthia > Severa/Kjelle/other Cynthia > Sumia/Cordelia > everyone else

Chrom x Sumia/Maribelle/Olivia

Lissa x Stahl/Ricken/Libra/Henry

Sully x Gaius/Donnel

Miriel x Lon'qu/Ricken/Gregor/Libra

Sumia x Chrom/Henry

Maribelle x Chrom/Virion/Lon'qu/Ricken/Libra/Henry

Panne x Virion/Stahl/Gregor

Cordelia x Virion/Vaike/Stahl/Lon'qu/Ricken

Nowi x Vaike/Stahl/Henry

Tharja x Fred/Vaike/Ricken/Gaius

Olivia x Chrom/Fred/Stahl/Ricken/Libra/Henry

Cherche x Virion/Vaike/Stahl/Ricken/Gregor/Henry

Poor Kellam lol...dude never gets any action

[Riobhain]

Poor Kellam lol...dude never gets any action

Who?

[Alastor15243]

FeMU x Chrom stomp 100% Apo before Lucina even needs to be recruited? So how is that "way better"?

Because Lucina makes a better morgan than Chrom does, with better stats and Aether instead of Rightful King?

And are you saying that FeMU X Chrom is automatically better than MaMU X Lucina because it's possible for them to solo apotheosis using VV? Well okay, but 1, MaMU and Lucina can do that too, and two, that requires brave weapons, and brave weapons turn apotheosis into a joke. After banning brave weapons, if you are using a female MU, FeMU and Chrom cannot solo apotheosis SR, and to make matters worse, while it makes the best Lucina, it makes a really crappy Morgan.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Czar_Yoshi]

I should save this post for future use!

I write it from memory and based on how I'm currently feeling, so each time I post it there are some differences (otherwise I'd have it in my sig). If there's going to be a master copy we need to sit down and talk about it for a while first.

FeMU x Chrom > Avatar x Lucina tho.

This is a good example of those differences- sometimes I mention Avatar-F and sometimes I don't (Chrom is definitely at the top of her list though).

The obvious answer though is to have separate lists of partners for Avatar-M and Avatar-F.

Poor Kellam lol...dude never gets any action

He thinks he's a middle ground between Ricken and Frederick, but doesn't know that's not a good place to be... If he had either something->Peg over Thief or a +3 Mag mod, he'd see a lot more action. A +2 Spd mod would also work, but then he'd fully be top tier instead of just situationally great.

After banning brave weapons, if you are using a female MU, FeMU and Chrom cannot solo apotheosis SR

a) M x Lucina can't either, b) they can't true solo it with Braves anyway because turn limits, and c) if they're just doing the bulk of the heavy lifting and have other units to help with the turn limits, they can do it with no Braves.

[Vascela]

Banning DLC, Rallies, and/or Braves are many, many different things that makes the unorthodox somewhat extremely relevant (and vice/versa).

[Alastor15243]

a) M x Lucina can't either, b) they can't true solo it with Braves anyway because turn limits, and c) if they're just doing the bulk of the heavy lifting and have other units to help with the turn limits, they can do it with no Braves.

Sorry, for a, I didn't mean to imply they could, I was saying "so that's not an option, and now that it isn't, they're nowhere near as good as Mu and Lucina at doing things the proper way.

Also this is utterly surreal. You're the one who talked me out of FeMU X Chrom and now we're arguing on opposite sides?

Anyway, the utility of the FeMU X Chrom pair itself aside, again, it makes a horrible Morgan.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Czar_Yoshi]

Also this is utterly surreal. You're the one who talked me out of FeMU X Chrom and now we're arguing on opposite sides?

It wasn't my intent to argue either side, just to point out that one does not simply do a true duo of S.Apo whether you're running Avatar x Chrom or not.

[Alastor15243]

It wasn't my intent to argue either side, just to point out that one does not simply do a true duo of S.Apo whether you're running Avatar x Chrom or not.

Oh. I assumed because of this here:

This is a good example of those differences- sometimes I mention Avatar-F and sometimes I don't (Chrom is definitely at the top of her list though).

The obvious answer though is to have separate lists of partners for Avatar-M and Avatar-F.

But you meant solely in terms of that pairing's combat performance and not children, right?

[Deitti]

First off, are you going to try for apotheosis because you want a huge challenge that you want to prepare for?

If so, I'm just gonna put this out there: DON'T USE BRAVE WEAPONS.

If you use brave weapons and you've got everyone's stats maxed out, literally the only things you need to know to beat apotheosis secret route are how to build a rally bot (get an einherjar and give them either 5 of the 10 rally skills if you want two rally bots to give all bonuses, or Rally Heart, Rally Spectrum, Rally Skill, Rally Speed, and either Rally Strength or Magic if you want a rally bot that can singlehandedly give an all-physical or all-magical group pretty much everything it needs) and Galeforce 101: Gaius, Donnel (and technically Avatar but this is ill advised) can give Tharja, Sully and Nowi's daughters galeforce. Know these two things, max out everyone's stats with limit breaker, and use brave weapons, and the map will be an utter cakewalk even if your planning is horrible. Why? Because they roughly triple your damage output. You go from 2-4 attacks to 6-12.

If you're not using brave weapons, then things become interesting. It's totally possible to one-round enemies in apotheosis secret route without brave weapons IF you know what you're doing.

You want a party with speed, offense, skill, offensive skills, an even distribution of aegis weapons (bows, magic, dragonstones if you like) and pavise weapons (swords, lances, axes, beaststones if you must), snipers (3-range combat is absolutely indispensable in apotheosis, as no enemies are capable of it and several nightmarish enemies are far more easily dispatched with it), healers (you'll need people on hand capable of using fortify pretty much every turn, and rescue staves are essential for when things go horribly wrong), and of course rally bots.

You need to get as many units as possible access to both galeforce and offensive procs (Astra and Aether are only acceptable when combined with either Luna or Ignis), and the units that can't get both (Laurent, Yarne, Gerome and basically Nah) need to stay in the back and focus on dealing high dual strike damage by increasing their offensive power with skills like AS+2, Aggressor, faires, and accuracy boosting skills like Anathema and Hit+20 if they're low accuracy.

There's a lot you need to understand, so why don't you show me your current ideas for pairings and we can give you advice as to what to change.

Well, originally i didn't give much thought into the challenge part but after seeing your post, i might consider the brave weapon free run since although i had heard that Apo can be broken easily, i didn't exactly know it was THAT easy.

Anyway, part of the reason i asked was that i hadn't really come up with 100% sure list of pairings but i guess this would be somewhat the list i had in mind:

Avatar x Cynthia/Sumia/Severa(hadn't really decided between these three)

Chrom x Sumia or Olivia

Lissa x Ricken

Sully x Donnel

Miriel x Gregor

Sumia x Chrom or Avatar

Maribelle x Lon'qu i guess

Panne x Kellam

Cordelia x Stahl

Nowi x not sure

Tharja x Gaius

Olivia x not sure(hadn't really thought who to give her if she didn't end up with Chrom)

Cherche x Vaike

Czar_Yoshi's list helped alot already though, since it gave some possibilities i hadn't given any consideration before.

[Alastor15243]

First off, I'd recommend your avatar marrying Lucina or Chrom!Cynthia. It'll give Morgan aether, and having 3 aether using characters on the map is great. Plus it'll give her fantastic stats and speed levels that no other frontlining child is capable of. Since you're going magical, I'd recommend marrying Cynthia because Morgan will be identical, and Lucina will be free to be a sniper with a berserker husband so she'll have devastating longbow attack power, 75 speed (enough to double everything in the game) AND a 100% DS rate.

For the same reason, Sumia's a superior wife option for Chrom than Olivia, mostly for Cynthia's sake. Cynthia has exactly two viable fathers not counting the avatar, while Inigo has at least six. Plus, unless you use Gaius on Cynthia, which is a bad idea, Chrom's the only one of her potential fathers who can let her procstack thanks to Aether.

Gregor!Laurent is fantastic for in-game. He's technically not the best for apotheosis since he'll have the lowest magic power of the viable Laurents in the game, but this is a minor difference once dragonskin is applied. He'll only be doing 1, MAYBE 2 compared to Ricken!Laurent, less damage.

Panne X Kellam isn't very good and doesn't give Yarne what he really wants (either good mods and high skill if he's gonna marry a female avatar, or hit+20 so he can wreak havoc as a berserker if he isn't). Stahl and Virion are considered his best options when you're not marrying him, and when you are, Lon'qu, Virion and Gregor are his best options. Remember, you definitely want at least one Berserker sniper pair, and Yarne's the best possible berserker hard support there is.

Cordelia X Stahl works well, though a lot of people think that hair color is disgusting on her. I usually go with Vaike!Severa for high strength and general access, which lets her hit like a truck when paired up with Paladin Inigo (I always pair those two together because it works great and it's one of Inigo's best S support conversations, since he has absolutely no difficulty at all committing).

Speaking of Inigo, Frederick's a good father option. The speed is unfortunate, but it's not negative, and it gets Inigo the only thing he needs, which is Luna (I don't like vengeance in no-brave runs, it's tricky, requires very specific advance planning, and constantly has to be reset every turn). It also, incidentally, gives Inigo all the evasion-increasing skills he needs to be a dodgetank capable of dodging the nightmare sniper with 100% reliability, though this will seriously cripple his effectiveness as a fighter for the rest of the map.

Vaike!Gerome has high strength, yes, but you really only want to focus on that if you're going to marry him, and you're not. He generally wants an accuracy boosting skill so he can use a high strength class to give some major supporting muscle to one of your girls. My personal favorite father for him is Henry, since that's the only way to give him both Berserker (the best physical support class in the game) and an accuracy skill in Anathema (Berserker's one weakness as a hard support is its bad skill and thus shoddy accuracy). Stahl also works too as a bowfaire Warrior, though Berserker boosts speed, and you definitely want at least one viable berserker so that, as said above, Lucina can be a devastating sniper. You definitely want at least one berserker-backed sniper, MINIMUM, so keep this in mind. However, Hit+20 is better than Anathema, and only Yarne can be a berserker with Hit+20, so if you're only going to make one Berserker unit, make it Yarne.

As for Nah, she's unique in that she's a female hard support. She can go either physical or magical and function well in both roles. However, if you go for Vaike!Nah, one of her best physical options, I highly recommend against making her a hero, because that is not a very good class for a female unit who spends all of her time in back. It doesn't have an offense-increasing pairup bonus, though its skill and speed bonuses are great.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Czar_Yoshi]

Oh. I assumed because of this here:

But you meant solely in terms of that pairing's combat performance and not children, right?

Yeah that's without regard for the children. Avatar x Chrom is all about getting one pair that can do anything without regard for team synergy or anything else.

Deitti: I'm seeing an unused Virion, and there's really no way that should be happening when you've got Panne x Kellam (unless you just really like that pair or something). Virion!Yarne will be a vastly superior performer to Kellam!Yarne, and you could also put Virion on Severa and give Stahl to Yarne (or Inigo). Frederick is also available as a decent option for both Yarne and Inigo.

I recommend switching off of Stahl!Severa if you want to marry her because she's more about good class selections (she has a strong Hero, Sniper and Paladin) than good mods and Morgan doesn't really benefit from that. She only has +4/4/3 Str/Skl/Spd mods, compared to Vaike's +5/4/4, Virion's +2/5/5 and Lon'qu's +2/6/6. There's a lot you can do with a +5 Spd mod. Then again, I'm not too fond of Stahl!Severa (because of her hair), so take that with a grain of salt.

As for Nah, you've got a free Henry and she really likes him, so I'd definitely do that.

However, if you go for Vaike!Nah, one of her best physical options, I highly recommend against making her a hero, because that is not a very good class for a female unit who spends all of her time in back. It doesn't have an offense-increasing pairup bonus, though its skill and speed bonuses are great.

Vaike!Nah doesn't spend all her time in the back, she pairs with a Galeboy, gives him the first kill and takes the second for herself with Luna/Deliverer. Hero is actually a pretty good option because it has high Skl for DS, gives neutral Str/Mag so it can support physical and magical equally as well, and gives 5 more Spd than General (her other serious option, which has much better output in the back in exchange for a worse leading potential).

[Alastor15243]

Vaike!Nah doesn't spend all her time in the back, she pairs with a Galeboy, gives him the first kill and takes the second for herself with Luna/Deliverer. Hero is actually a pretty good option because it has high Skl for DS, gives neutral Str/Mag so it can support physical and magical equally as well, and gives 5 more Spd than General (her other serious option, which has much better output in the back in exchange for a worse leading potential).

Fair point regarding being in front, although having the boy in back doesn't give nearly as much benefit to damage output without brave weapons as with, so unless you can get Nah to be a genuinely powerful unit, with better procs than her husband, OR you can give her the ability to do something her husband can't, like, say, use longbows as a sniper, I would still argue this is inadvisable.

As for Henry!Nah, Deitti, If you go with this and decide to put vengenace on her, direct all questions to Czar_Yoshi, because I have never been able to get Vengeance to work properly in a no-brave run. Quite frankly I consider it more trouble than it's worth, but Czar absolutely loves it.

Now I'll talk about what are good classes:

Assassin: Very fast and skilled with access to both swords (pierces Aegis) and bows (pierces Pavise). If you have at least a +4 speed mod, you don't even need a +speed pairup bonus to reach 75 speed in this class, and it's an extremely good class for making a 100% DS pair. They have mediocre strength, but this can be compensated for with mods, and their pairup bonuses are fantastic, giving strength, skill and speed.

Sniper: I would argue that in no-brave runs, this is the best class in the entire game. It may be locked to using bows and thus can't pierce Aegis, but Longbow access allows them to attack Invincisorcs and the Nightmare sniper's minions without fear of the severe consequences of attacking them in 1 or 2 range. I consider them a MANDATORY addition to any party. Their skill pariup bonuses and caps also make them invaluable choices for either the front or the back of a pair trying to go for 100% DS.

Dread Fighter: Has good strength and passable magic, and is one of very few male-accessible tome-using classes that boosts his partner's speed. Also has access to both levin swords and, better still, bolt axes, the best ways to pierce Aegis magically. This, combined with tomes and regular physical swords and axes, means they have a wide variety of options to pierce enemies' defenses. Can have either a magical or physical partner because their pairup bonuses increase both strength and magic.

Bride: Has access to lances and bows, allowing it to, like the assassin, physically pierce either Aegis or Pavise, meaning they can attack almost anyone effectively. They also have staff access allowing them to be an emergency staffbot in a pinch. Bride also increases both speed and magic in its pairup bonuses. This makes them extremely good partners for dread fighters and vice-versa. Between the two of them they can target any resistance and pierce either pavise or aegis, making them an extremely valuable duo.

Dark Flier: Fliers with access to tomes and lances, though they're much better with tomes. High move, provide +Mag and +Spd with their pairup bonuses, and of course they can fly. ...Just don't have them engage the nightmare sniper or his minions in 2-range.

Dark Knight: Very rarely discussed, much less recommended, outside of no-brave runs, but within no-brave runs these guys are absolutely indispensable... if you have the proper skills for them. They have high move and access to Levin Swords, which makes them invaluable units for taking down the Aegis Berserkers (who have unnaturally high defense) towards the end of secret route. They can also use tomes if they want to pierce Pavise, and normal swords if they have the mods for it. My personal favorite Dark Knight is Gaius!Noire, who gets a good magic mod, Swordfaire, Luna and Astra.

Paladin: An all-around great class with fantastic pairup bonuses (Str, Skill, Speed and Defense), balanced stats, and high move. Just keep in mind that they're locked to attacking Aegis enemies.

General: The most physically powerful class available to girls, and it provides an above-average attack pairup bonus, but it suffers from low speed and move, so either use one of your boots on them or make sure they're paired up with a galeforce partner who has high movement, like, say, a paladin.

Sage: Highest magic power in the game, and they have staff access. A great choice for a galeboy, and pretty much the ONLY choice for Laurent, save in some situations where you need speed for his wife more than magic power and Dread Fighter would be better. Their only real weakness is they, like Snipers, have absolutely no way to effectively attack enemies with Aegis.

Trickster: Fills the same niche that Dark Knight does, though not as effectively, as it's inferior in strength, magic, move, and is also swordlocked and is thereby ineffective against Pavise enemies. It does, however, have staff access, which is a plus.

Berserker: The king of physical support units, this is the class that physical hard supports work their absolute best in. It requires an accuracy-boosting skill though, the best of which requires sniper access. Has the best strength pairup bonus in the game, totaling up to 10 at rank A-S with at least 30 strength, and it also increases speed by enough that a sniper with a +5 speed mod (like Chrom and Sumia's daughters) can reach 75 speed perfectly.

Warrior: Berserker's jealous inferior brother, this is generally what Gerome has to settle for with most fathers. Just as good of a strength pairup bonus, but no speed bonus.

Hero: A great all-around class for anyone in front, though again, it's pretty much the only unit on this list whose pairup bonuses boost neither strength nor magic, so be careful about that.

Bow Knight: This is generally Chrom's best option if you're using him as a hard support for Sumia, since Sumia will tend to be magical, and Bow Knight, while it doesn't boost magic, still has all of its pairup boosts in areas that benefit her: Speed, Skill, and Move. For other units it's not very highly recommended though.

Valkyrie: An EXTREMELY rare class to have available to any viable unit, generally only seen on Henry!Cynthia, Henry!Nah and female Morgan, but it's quite good, with high move and tome access, and the ability to properly engage bow and wind magic users without as much fear as a dark flier.

Grandmaster: Not the best stats, but has magical and physical attacks as well as aegis and pavise attacks, as well as probably the best pair up bonuses in the entire game.

Great Lord: Essentially Hero with Lances instead of Axes, though its pair up bonuses are pretty bad, only boosting speed and luck. It does tie with assassin for second highest speed pairup bonus though. But in all honesty, the two characters with this class have better classes available.

Wyvern Lord: If you've got the speed for it, this is an excellent physical class. The two units most capable of getting the speed to use it properly are Severa with Lon'qu or Virion as dad (only has vengeance though, be warned) and Gaius!Kjelle (has luna/astra, but this causes Noire to suffer far more than Kjelle benefits)

Falcon Knight: I consider this vastly inferior to dark flier due to having no magic attack and only 2 points more strength (which is still below average), but it's a very good class for a rally bot, especially since staff access lets them double as staffbots in emergencies.

War Monk/Cleric: I've never tried this, but on paper it seems great. It can use the very useful Bolt Axes, has both decent magic and decent strength, and staff access for rescue and fortify. Pair-up bonuses don't boost speed or skill, but they do boost both strength and magic.

Dancer: Olivia can be very useful for salvaging a failed kill, though it requires boots investment to really be worthwhile. Equip her with galeforce, LB, AS+2, Swordfaire and maybe Special Dance, and she'll be able to finish off enemies that survived an attack, and then with her second action thanks to galeforce she'll be able to dance the whiffers so that they can try again with another opponent. Especially useful if they hadn't activated galeforce yet and lost 2 or 3 kills by failing just one.

I'll add to this list if I can remember any more.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Vascela]

I think you are putting more emphasis on no braves than I do consistency.

[Alastor15243]

I think you are putting more emphasis on no braves than I do consistency.

Again, brave weapons turn apotheosis into a trivial joke. If you actually want all that preparation and team-building to mean something, you pretty much HAVE to ban them.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Try 1-range only (requires tight setups for Counter boss kills), no Rescue/GF (can't pull out of an engagement, so you need to kill everything in one go), or Enemy Phase combat only with no Vantage.

[Alastor15243]

Try 1-range only (requires tight setups for Counter boss kills), no Rescue/GF (can't pull out of an engagement, so you need to kill everything in one go), or Enemy Phase combat only with no Vantage.

Those sound interesting too. Also, can you check that list I added to my post with the good classes, see if I missed any?

[Vascela]

What do you define as non-trivial joke? Chance based?

[Alastor15243]

What do you define as non-trivial joke? Chance based?

The entire game involves chance at pretty much all points. I don't see why this is a valid criticism. The point is, using brave weapons means the enemies would have to have roughly triple the HP they have before any real care for classes and skills besides galeforce becomes necessary.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Vascela]

The entire game involves chance at pretty much all points. I don't see why this is a valid criticism.

There are non-chance based setups for no dlc, no dlc/no rally, and 4 unit low deploy. Theoretically, I can also do no dlc/no pair up, but that's just a slight numbers game modification of no dlc/no rally.

I'm certain that there is a potential 100% no braves setup (and potential no dlc/no braves). So yes, I'm interested in what you mean by non trivial

[Alastor15243]

There are non-chance based setups for no dlc, no dlc/no rally, and 4 unit low deploy. Theoretically, I can also do no dlc/no pair up, but that's just a slight numbers game modification of no dlc/no rally.

I'm certain that there is a potential 100% no braves setup (and potential no dlc/no braves). So yes, I'm interested in what you mean by non trivial

There's nothing wrong with chance. I really don't get what your problem with it is. If you want to design a team that has a 100% chance of success and will always work, great for you, that's not the point. My point is that it's totally possible to one-round apotheosis enemies with a reasonable amount of reliability without resorting to brave weapons, which means that WITH brave weapons, your teams would have to be so incompetently, or intentionally poorly, built as to do a third of that damage per hit before failure's even remotely likely. The damage output increase of brave weapons basically renders all ways in which a team can be poorly optimized moot, so if you're actually hoping to build a clever team and feel like you've accomplished something, braves should be taken off the table.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Alastor15243