Comparing the American and German approaches to criminals.

[Alazen]

As you might already know, the American approach to crime has a reputation for being overly harsh and a failure at actually preventing crime, or at least rehabilitating criminals. Well, here's a paper discussing both it and Germany's:

link

The gap in harshness between American and German criminal punishment represents a moral disagreement between the two societies: American criminal punishment expresses a belief in the concept of human evil, while German criminal punishment denies that belief. This paper, after giving the concept of evil some philosophical definition, develops that thesis with six lines of argument. First, contrasting American and German responses to major crime, the paper argues that American criminal law routinely banishes its worst criminal offenders, while German criminal law almost never does. Second, as to minor crime, American law treats misdemeanors as portents of worse things to come, while German law treats them as errors. Third, in the context of recidivism, America punishes the person, Germany the act. Fourth, with regard to community reintegration, American law approaches ex-cons with a concept this paper terms “residual criminality,” while German law adopts norms of full forgiveness. Fifth, as to capital punishment, America treats the right to life as alienable for wrongdoing; Germany treats that right as inalienable. And sixth – turning here from interpreting criminal doctrine and practice to analyzing the historical record – the paper shows that various players in the American criminal system have given voice to the belief in criminal evil, while major players in the German system have expressly denied that belief. The paper concludes by asking which system is more just, arguing that German criminal law is naive for denying the existence of evil where it should be acknowledged, while American criminal law is reckless for rolling genuine evil together with mere error and failure and punishing them all alike.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Alazen

[Radiant head]

Nice work.

Obviously I pretty much agree, though I feel like in America, the roots of the problem go back to when crime and gangs were a serious problem in urban areas, so the criminal laws were kind of overcompensating to deal with that. And then there's also the racial element to it, with the war on drugs.

[Skynstein]

Germany has the most developed criminal science in the world. Most of the theories used by Western countries were created by German scholars.

[Alazen]

I'm sure a key difference is that Germany went through the Holocaust while WW2 era Americans and beyond never experienced something on its scale. German men and women came to terms with how ''regular'' people were capable of committing or enabling something on the scale of the Holocaust. They learned that ''evil'' by large isn't performed by aliens or monsters or subhumans.

You can watch a police procedural in the United States and expect to see a suspect or whoever's being questioned threatened with prison rape or some other abuse by an officer and/or interrogator. Criminals being subhumans has been ingrained in the United States' culture.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[eclipse]

ITT: Those internment camps in America didn't exist.

I think it's the fact that America is so damn big, with so many different ideologies running around. I also want stats for the second paragraph - that sounds like a gross generalization.

[blah the Prussian]

ITT: Those internment camps in America didn't exist.

I think it's the fact that America is so damn big, with so many different ideologies running around. I also want stats for the second paragraph - that sounds like a gross generalization.

Wait, what internment camps? I can't seem to find them mentioned in this thread.

[Tetragrammaton]

Most countries in the world ban its people to own guns, while America allows them to. And they get a lot of cases when people shooting all around.

[Alazen]

ITT: Those internment camps in America didn't exist.

I think it's the fact that America is so damn big, with so many different ideologies running around. I also want stats for the second paragraph - that sounds like a gross generalization.

You're ignorant if you honestly believe that Japanese internment is even close to the Holocaust. And Americans have long been taught or believed since WW2's aftermath that the war was a ''good war'' so your point is even worse.

And size is no excuse. Canada is the 2nd largest country in the world, yet are you going to seriously tell me it has the same scale of problems as the United States with how it approaches suspects and criminals (namely prisoners per population, acceptance of private prisons, and how prominent blacks are)? Do you want me to get into the War on Drugs?

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[I.M. Gei]

canada's government, at least through the 19th of this month, is doing their damndest to ape american-style "tough on crime" policy, including megaprisons, hth (protip: you're probably better off not asking what a lot of them think about first nations folks)

Edited October 2, 2015 by I.M. Gei

[Alazen]

I'm aware of that. I was countering the size excuse.

The American approach has been failing at rehabilitating criminals and hasn't noticeably lowered criminal activity when compared with assorted other industrialized nations. As such, it being around despite such an underwhelming performance is surely a cultural problem.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[blah the Prussian]

You're ignorant if you honestly believe that Japanese internment is even close to the Holocaust. And Americans have long been taught or believed since WW2's aftermath that the war was a ''good war'' so your point is even worse.

And size is no excuse. Canada is the 2nd largest country in the world, yet are you going to seriously tell me it has the same scale of problems as the United States with how it approaches suspects and criminals (namely prisoners per population, acceptance of private prisons, and how prominent blacks are)? Do you want me to get into the War on Drugs?

In population Canada is not nearly as big as the United States. Also, WWII WAS a "good war", but I digress. What if I used a different analogy, though, in the form of slavery, or, hell, the fact that the USA essentially succeeded in doing a pretty well executed genocide against Native Americans, not to mention the Filipinos. So the US certainly has a lot to answer for, but they still are more tough on crime. Now, I have an answer, but lets see what you think first.

[Alazen]

Canada's population isn't small enough that you can use it to handwave its far lower prison population. And you're examples of American slavery, treatment of indigenous peoples, and the Philippine Debacle all managed to get distances in terms of time or geography that the Holocaust doesn't have.

[Rapier]

I don't think this is a mere difference between Germany and the US, but between roman-germanic law and anglo-saxon law. Most of the world adopt the former, while obviously countries with anglo-saxon law adopt the latter. They have widely different approaches from civic law to criminal law.

I honestly have no idea which is the best criminal punishment method. Usually people say that there is no correlation between higher penalties and less crime, but I'm skeptical about a low penalty system working in a country with a high criminal rate. I doubt there are universal solutions for social problems, if anything I think they depend too much on the country to work, and what works on Sweden and Australia might not work on the United States or in Brazil.

[eclipse]

You're ignorant if you honestly believe that Japanese internment is even close to the Holocaust. And Americans have long been taught or believed since WW2's aftermath that the war was a ''good war'' so your point is even worse.

Before you answer this, I want you to keep in mind that I'm Japanese, and VERY FUCKING LUCKY that my great-grandparents lived in the one place in America that wasn't subject to them. In other words, you're toeing a very fine line.

Rounding up an entire race of people and imprisoning them because they might be spies is racist, full stop. They weren't asked politely to come along, either. They also weren't experimented on/systematically executed (which is a terrible comparison, IMO, because "not committing crimes against humanity" isn't something that should be commended), but there was heavy anti-Japanese sentiment, and that shit has lasting repercussions. Hell, I saw a letter from someone in Texas who mentioned something about a "Jap Street" (actual street name).

The difference? Germany didn't handwave theirs as "well we weren't as bad as another group".

[blah the Prussian]

Another way to explain it is that we won. We had the chance to keep the internment camps under wraps, the Germans didn't.