Unit Practicality Thread

[astrophys]

If you're using her for Shockstick, as Shephen suggests, or at least partially using her for that, I suppose that a magic user could also be of use in a pair-up so that they could bequeath a +MAG bonus.

EDIT:

By the way, are these estimates of Shock Stick performance reasonable? (see spoiler tagged section)

I've been trying to run some of the numbers…. these figures are for Matoi (personal bias), but with a 15% magic growth Hinoka should tend to be similar [Hinoka has a higher base, Matoi gets a +4 damage boost if Prodigy triggers]

So by 20/15 we'd be looking at something like 12 magic ON AVERAGE on Matoi [slighly higher on Hinoka] before Spiriti Dusts.

Say we use 2 Spirit Dust…. 16 magic.

Forged Shock Stick…. that would be 11+2=13 Might, right? SO that would be 16 magic + 13 Might --> 29 ATK

Let's consider a +4 magic pair up [it could be more or less; an Exorcist without supports hits it immediately; an S-rank +MAG Dark Knight also hits that, etc. it doesn't really matter where it comes from; actual pair-up values could be more or less]. ---> 33 ATK

If we assumed that Avatar was giving the pair-up, we could further boost it by +2 by Mysterious Appeal. ---> 35 ATK

A-rank lances should be 2 more attack… 37 ATK….

A Prodigy trigger would give us 4 more damage, as if it was 41 ATK….

A magic tonic could put us up to 43 ATK….

You could take Lance Fighter levels to get +5 damage per attack, but that also costs 4 levels of 10% growth, so we're looking at an average of 11.6 magic pre-Dusts plus 5 damage…. so basically (due to no fractional values) 11 magic +5 damage, for a net gain of 4 damage.

You could also easily get Open Assault (situationally) if she managed to buddy, but I don't think assuming a 2nd gen to get both a husband and a buddy is a prudent idea.

I'll ignore both Lancefaire and Open Assault in the below analysis.

Judging from this Hoshido/Hard video, these are some selected Ch. 27 enemy stats:

20/16 Hero: 51 HP, 16 RES, 27 SPD (we expect to double thanks to SPD stat and Swallow Strike)

IF Prodigy can trigger

---> If Hero uses sword, weapon triangle advantage; 44 ATK (+1 bonus) - 16 RES = 28 damage per hit ---> 56 damage over two hits ---> kills Hero.. [actually, we didn't need the tonic…. subtracting 2 x 2 damage still gets us to 52].

--> If Hero uses axe, WT Disadvantage; lose 2 WTB attack and 1 penalty, so -3 ATK… 40 ATK -16 = 24 damage per hit ---> 48 damage; Hero is at 3 HP [Hinoka's Aura or Battle command could fix this, however]

EXCEPT that the Heroes have 25 STR, which my predicted averages suggest Matoi has as well, so her Prodigy bonus would be canceled…. but we could replace this Rally Magic…. although if she were slightly STR-screwed she'd be fine.

Berserkers: 57 HP, 27 Spd (doubled), 8 RES…. we face WT disadvantage here; Prodigy will always work against these as a Falcon Knight [they have more than its cap already]; 40 ATK - 8 RES = 32 damage ---> 32 x 2 = 64 kill

Great Knights: 50 HP, 16 RES, 30 STR (Prodigy will trigger), swords or lances….. we should get a kill…

Bow Knights: Prodigy probably won't trigger against them, and Bows beat Lances… we're looking at 36 ATK, vs. 23 RES ---> 13 x 2 = 26 damage, vs. 44 HP; no kill here… we'd need 9 more damage [Rally Magic, Lancefaire, Encouragement] to get a kill….

Wyvens: 46 HP, axes, 28 STR (prodigy likely), 11 RES;;; 43 -11 = 32 --> 64 damage, easy kill

Strategist: 39/39 HP, tomes (lances beat these, so +1 ATK in triangle), 24 RES, 28 Magic [Prodigy triggers] ---> 44 ATK - 24 RES = 20 damage per hit ---> get a kill. (20 x 2 = 40 > 39).

Dark Knights: 47 HP, 25 STR [Prodigy triggering is borderline, might not happen], 19 RES…. have swords and tomes (+1 damage due to triangel) 44 -4 (no prodigy) - 19 = 21 damage per hit --> 42 damage dealt… not a kill on one's own… but Rally Magic would push us up to 50 and get the kill.

Well, I've rambled there quite a while… the point is, Shockstick Falcon Knight, even with a character with a 15% magic growth, could actually do quite a lot of damage and get a bunch of kills thanks to lots of stacking bonuses and Spirit Dusts [2 Dusts, Shockstick Forge, pair-up, Mysterious Appeal, A-rank lances, Prodigy, Tonic, etc.]

Edited December 1, 2015 by astrophys

[Ebony]

Hinoka doesn't even benefit that much from Lancer. She already has good bulk as a Peg/Falco and she has enough speed where she can use Steel Naginata forges without much penalty really. She has the Shock Stick forge so she can even get through the Generals that give people problems. So her offense is never an issue. Her only real problem that Lancer could help with is her low base hp, but she is the best candidate for the chapter 7 Seraph Robe unless Kamui got really screwed over in HP. Going lancer doesn't really change anything for her. She still kills everything, just now she has less move and falls behind the other mounts like Crimson, Baki, Silas so there is less stuff for her to kill.

Do you still recommend at least taking a dip into it for a skill such as Lancefaire?

[astrophys]

Well, my calculations are that Lancefaire would tend to give you +5.20 physical damage per hit (5% extra for 4 levels plus 5 from the skill) and +4.60 magical damage per hit (-10% magic per level for 4 levels, plus 5 from the skill).

However, you'd also lose 4 point of magic (and thus 4 damage) for the 4 levels needed to pick up the skill if in Holy Lancer. You'd also consume a seal to get to the class and then another seal to get back to your ending class.

Some of the magical loss can be mitigated by taking some levels (for the first two skills) as a Basara again, but its not a huge deal. As a Basara you'd also GAIN 1 base point of magic during this time. You'd still have to spend at least 2 levels in Holy Lancer (Speed Seal, then Lancefaire).

I haven't played yet, so I cannot really comment on if using the seals like that would be a good use of resources.

Your magical abilities would drop off for 2-4 levels, although your physical abilities would be improved during that time in compensation. The end result would make you better both magically and physically overall, due to boosting both shock stick and regular lances.

[Shephen]

Lancefaire just comes way to late to be of much use in Hoshido. You spend most of the game fighting unpromoted enemies which give jack squat in terms of exp to your promoted units, and there are only so many promoted enemies to kill for exp. The first chapter where every enemies is promoted is chapter 23, but there isn't much game left. 23 is the final route in the game. 24 and 25 are both defeat boss with a lot of enemies to face(but both chapters can be rescue/drawn skipped). This is usually when units will start hitting 20/15ish. 26 is Kamui bops Xander turn 1 and no one else gets much exp. 27 is basically the hardest level with the amount of enemies and their power(can be rescue skipped though). Then the Endgame is Izana using the MaS staff on the final boss and then Kamui/Ryoma orkoing the boss turn 1. There just isn't enough game left for it to be much use, and it isn't very useful on her to start with since she is already so good.

In IK she should since IK gives exp up the wazoo and the enemies are way more powerful and Hinoka will need the extra attack.

[astrophys]

Could you exploit the child paralogues (such as withholding the paralogue of a child you aren't planning to use on your team until later in the game so that you face higher level enemies who will give high level promoted EXP) as a way of providing an extra resource for leveling your team?

Of course, you'd be giving up their EXP in the short term, but you could get a bunch of high level enemies later on [or perhaps more consistent supplies of promoted enemies after Child Seals start appearing], and then you'd get a bunch of EXP in those stages?

[Dark Paladin X]

Do you guys think it's worth reclassing Elfie and Charlotte into Maids in Lunatic Mode runs? Even though they won't be ideal staff users due to their low magic growths, I notice they have a reasonably good Speed and Luck growths that would allow them to take advantage of the Maid's relatively high speed and luck caps. They also have a reasonably good strength growth to take use of using physical damage dealing Hidden Weapons and the extra +2 Speed is good. Plus, you really don't have a lot of good Hidden Weapon users across from Felicia, Kaze, and Jakob. Or am I better off leaving Elfie and Charlotte as General and Berserker respectfully?

Also, is it possible to do an all-Maid run in Nohr/Hoshido/Relevation route Lunatic Mode and what are the advantages and disadvantages of doing that?

Also between Benolt vs. Elfie, which character is a better General in the long run for Lunatic Mode runs? Similarly, who makes a better Trueblade for Lunatic Mode runs, Hinata or Hana?

[Ryo]

Do you take advantage of DLC? Because some of the options that you mentioned sound outright impractical tbh.

[Dark Paladin X]

Do you take advantage of DLC? Because some of the options that you mentioned sound outright impractical tbh.

Yeah, I'm planning to take use of DLC like EXP, Gold, and Weapons. Why do you making a team consisting of Maids is impractical in Lunatic Mode runs? Do you think Elite Ninjas are better in Lunatic Mode runs?

Also in regards to Elfie vs. Benolt and Hana vs. Hinata in terms of having a main General and Trueblade respectfully, who do you think is more practical to use?

Edited December 1, 2015 by Dark Paladin X

[Ryo]

If you're gonna use DLC then you can do whatever you want, because there's no limitation whatsoever.

[Tooru]

Do you guys think it's worth reclassing Elfie and Charlotte into Maids in Lunatic Mode runs? Even though they won't be ideal staff users due to their low magic growths, I notice they have a reasonably good Speed and Luck growths that would allow them to take advantage of the Maid's relatively high speed and luck caps. They also have a reasonably good strength growth to take use of using physical damage dealing Hidden Weapons and the extra +2 Speed is good. Plus, you really don't have a lot of good Hidden Weapon users across from Felicia, Kaze, and Jakob. Or am I better off leaving Elfie and Charlotte as General and Berserker respectfully?

Also, is it possible to do an all-Maid run in Nohr/Hoshido/Relevation route Lunatic Mode and what are the advantages and disadvantages of doing that?

Also between Benolt vs. Elfie, which character is a better General in the long run for Lunatic Mode runs? Similarly, who makes a better Trueblade for Lunatic Mode runs, Hinata or Hana?

Hidden Weapons don't give you Spd+2. Shurikens give.

We don't have a lot good Hidden Weapon users but at least we have 3, more than the number of good Brave Lance users.

The problem for all-Maid run is: Felicia (and Camilla) seems tol be the only Maid(s) for more than half of the playthrough. Other potential Maids can only reclass to Rod Knight at that time unless you early-promote them.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Tooru

[Shadow Mir]

I'd hate to take skill as a flaw because hit rates are dicks sometimes in this game. Skill flaw is like -20% growth so RIP procs.

Edit: also your last statement is correct. The only way to deal with mixed offense enemy groups is to either dodge them all (Trueblade hype!) or have good mixed Bulk (Leo, Camilia, and Saizou do this pretty well).

I don't know how bad it can get since I haven't played, but ehhh. Like I said, skill just hasn't been able to keep up with other stats in terms of importance imho, so I'm thinking that might hurt the least.

Lancefaire just comes way to late to be of much use in Hoshido. You spend most of the game fighting unpromoted enemies which give jack squat in terms of exp to your promoted units, and there are only so many promoted enemies to kill for exp. The first chapter where every enemies is promoted is chapter 23, but there isn't much game left. 23 is the final route in the game. 24 and 25 are both defeat boss with a lot of enemies to face(but both chapters can be rescue/drawn skipped). This is usually when units will start hitting 20/15ish. 26 is Kamui bops Xander turn 1 and no one else gets much exp. 27 is basically the hardest level with the amount of enemies and their power(can be rescue skipped though). Then the Endgame is Izana using the MaS staff on the final boss and then Kamui/Ryoma orkoing the boss turn 1. There just isn't enough game left for it to be much use, and it isn't very useful on her to start with since she is already so good.

In IK she should since IK gives exp up the wazoo and the enemies are way more powerful and Hinoka will need the extra attack.

Just how much chance will Izana have to hit Zurg with that staff?

Edited December 1, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Ownagepuffs]

The only business Hinoka has with Lancer tree is breaking sky for those few enemies that she can't cleanly ORKO.

Also in regards to Elfie vs. Benolt and Hana vs. Hinata in terms of having a main General and Trueblade respectfully, who do you think is more practical to use?

Effie is about as close to being objectively better than Benny as you could get.

Hana v Hinata is a matter of bases v growths, though tbh her late game is like a lot better than his. Some (not all) late game enemy types require AS in the 30s (Heroes, Zerks, Maids, Bow Knights) to double and are bulky enough for her strength advantage to matter.

Just how much chance will Izana have to hit Zurg with that staff?

Pretty unlikely. Even after you wait the maximum amount of time to recruit Iz when he joins with like Capped Mag and Skl he gets around 50% on the final boss. This also assumes that you wait to recruit him when he's also really useful when early recruited as well.

[Shephen]

The latest joining Izana joins with like 29 mag and capped 32 skill. With a good pair up and tonics he will have around 70% hit on the boss, and you have three chances to hit it so it is pretty likely to happen.

[Ownagepuffs]

Forgot to take pair up/tonics into account. Still, one could make the case to get him early because rally magic has immediate use for Saizou, Hinoka, or even the Spellcasters since Horse god doesn't necessarily have the highest might around.

[astrophys]

Couldn't another strategy be stacking a bunch of STR and SPD, as well as building a slight amount of shield gauge before engaging the final boss directly?

(I haven't played the game, so maybe I'm wrong)….

You'd need 37 SPD to double (or 32 + Swallow Strike) and you'd need 38 SPD to double after getting Draconic Cursed but brought back up a bit with Special Song.

If you go with +SPD (to be particularly favorable to this), you already have an average of 30.1 SPD at 20/15. Yato would give you +5 SPD when equipped, right? That gets you to 35 SPD. A tonic gets you to 37 SPD. Or Rally Speed would have already gotten you to 39. Of course, averages won't always happen, but I haven't even considered Speedwings or Personal Pair-ups yet.

If you went +SPD/-LCK, you'd be at 28.15 STR on average by 20/15. Shura pair-up (+4; generic, not even considering support ranks), Yato (16 Might, +4 STR), A-rank swords (+3 ATK), Battle Command [from your Servant; +2], Encouragement [+2], and a STR tonic [+2] gets you up to 61 ATK.

This is already enough to get the 33 DEF final boss down to 2 HP (78 damage) after accounting for Draconic curse: (61-33)*0.75 = 21; (57 -33)*0.75 =18; 21 x 2 + 18 x 2 = 78.

A simple Energy Drop would place you in the territory of beating the boss on your own [well, as a pair and with Azura dancing for you]. You'd want at least one shield icon to charge up the dual guard gauge beforehand, to block one of the bosses' attacks, that said.

Again, this assumes averages, so results might not meet the threshold in practice. Although it also assumes 20/15, so if you're higher, you have more levels or leeway with the RNG. Also, things would become much easier if Izana' staffing worked, and also this is ignoring that you also have other characters who could attack the boss.

[Tooru]

Also between Benolt vs. Elfie, which character is a better General in the long run for Lunatic Mode runs?

As 20/20 Generals, Effie has 4X Str and 3X Def, Benoit has 3X Str, 3X Skl and 4X Def.

3X Def is enough for Lunatic.

4X Def allows you to deal with more enemies. But beating skippable enemies is not welcome in this forum, because most active players here are not good at it.

[Ownagepuffs]

As 20/20 Generals, Effie has 4X Str and 3X Def, Benoit has 3X Str, 3X Skl and 4X Def.

3X Def is enough for Lunatic.

4X Def allows you to deal with more enemies. But beating skippable enemies is not welcome in this forum, because most active players here are not good at it.

> making Effie a general

top kek. That last remark is also kind of insulting.

[Tooru]

> making Effie a general

top kek. That last remark is also kind of insulting.

Then how many turns you need to get all EXP&items in Nohr 21 and finish it?

Edited December 1, 2015 by Tooru

[Gwimpage]

Is this some sort of troll or is it an actual serious point? lmao

[avengerfive]

Yea I don't think you are gonna be able to 20/20 many characters without grinding.

Is it worth it to give 6 levels to Hana and/or Rinka? You can promote them and the make great pair-up bots. I was thinking WeaponMaster/Trueblade Hana would be a good pair-up for Subaki. And Shura Rinka could be pretty good with Ryoma (it might be overkill tho, but hey, it is Ryoma Emblem).

[Dark Sage]

Is this some sort of troll or is it an actual serious point? lmao

No, he's serious. He's said the same thing several times before.

Yea I don't think you are gonna be able to 20/20 many characters without grinding.

Is it worth it to give 6 levels to Hana and/or Rinka? You can promote them and the make great pair-up bots. I was thinking WeaponMaster/Trueblade Hana would be a good pair-up for Subaki. And Shura Rinka could be pretty good with Ryoma (it might be overkill tho, but hey, it is Ryoma Emblem).

Feeding 6 levels of exp to Hana just to use as a pair-up bot is a waste. You might as well just use Hinata. Rinka is a good pair up partner for a lot of peopld, but particularly Kaze and Ryoma. Shura bonuses are pretty good but Oni bonuses will suffice. Even at base, Rinka is a good partner for Ryoma since she gives bonuses he wants and activates his personal skill.

[CocoaGalaxy]

For 20/20, well it's mostly a simple case.....

Classically speaking, reaching 20/20 isn't "very" difficult in Nohr for a few characters, but some will probably still be behind, but they should still hit 20/15 without too much trouble...by endgame, of course

(Then again you have people who reach 20/20 at like Chapter 25 or so and I have no idea how they do things like that, oh well)

For Hoshido and Revelations, you can get one, maybe two characters to 20/20 if you funnel exp into them...but it's still not very likely.

It's mostly dependent on how many late game paralogues you do

[Tooru]

It is easy to understand if the lv20 unit at Nohr 25 is Camilla.

[Ownagepuffs]

20/15 is doable for plenty of characters in all 3 routes. 20/20 not so much but 20/15 skills are good enough anyway. For a lot of Hoshidan characters, that's when they get their faires.

[astrophys]

How would a Dark Knight + Falcon Warrior combination be in pair-up in Hoshido?

Obviously, I'm referring to an Avatar Dark Knight, as Dark Mage doesn't exist in Birthright as a playable class outside of generic captures or some marriage seal class-analouge shenanigans unless you take the class yourself.

Dark Knight's class pair-up bonus is +3 MAG, +3 DEF, and +1 Move.

Falcon Warrior's class pair-up bonus is +3 SPD, +3 RES, and +1 Move.

A lot of the praise I've been hearing for Falcon Warrior is to exploit the Shock Stick, which is magical. Dark Knight gives a +MAG pair-up bonus and its +3 DEF also places extra points to shore up one of Falcon Warrior's stat weaknesses [not that it will fully overcome it, just mitigate it]. Because running a Dark Knight in Birthright that's not a generic implies the Avatar, Mysterious Appeal would also be granting an extra +2 damage given/-2 damage received on top of this. Also, the personal pair-ups of the Avatar are guaranteed at least another +1 DEF/+1 RES and +1 SPD; a +MAG Avatar would be giving +1 extra magic and another +1 extra speed as well, so we could be looking at a pair bonus of +4 MAG, +2 SPD, +4 DEF, +1 RES, and +1 Move. Stacking with Mysterious appeal, this would be +6 shockstick damage given and -6 physical damage taken for the paired unit.

Falcon Warrior's +SPD would help offset one of the notable weaknesses of Dark Knight (SPD), as does the inherent Yato Bonus later on (+2 --> +4). RES is also the weaker defensive stat of both the Dark Knight class and the Avatar's growths. So we're looking at a 5/7 (6/8 when equipped) speed bonus of stacking Yato and a Pegasus, before personal pair-up.

Both units are naturally 8 move and they give +1 move in pair-up, so they'd end up as mutually 9 move when paired with each other.

A key drawback that I could see is that the Avatar would end up with dual weakness (horse and dragon).

How would this combo work?

This is a thinly veiled question about how the Avatar and some version of Matoi would work in a pair-up

Edited December 2, 2015 by astrophys